So the game I am playing in allows for better stats than normal. As a Human Paladin at 1rst lvl
Str 19
Int 16
Wis 16
Con 17
Dex 16
Char17
The rolling method is not normal we did 5d6 8 times as our DM wanted us to be 'powerful' Heroes so there it is.
Anyway, stats aside, going for a party tank build. I was thinking Sword n Board but everything I am reading says 2 hander.
Core rules, APG, Ultimate combat,and apparently Unchained for the Rogue or Monk.
What would be optimum and why?
Thanks!
I like both. 2H deals more damage so it's usually best, but 1H + shield is a great tool to have. Plus, Smite damage is the same when you 1H or 2H.
I like using a longsword in 2H, drawing a shield as needed.
Two-Handed using Fey Foundling is king if the Inner Sea World Guide is allowed.
Is a Bastard sword viable with the exotic feat or is that worth spending the feat for?
Bastard sword is one point of damage better than longsword, on average. You probably have better feats to take than +1 damage.
It's usually not worth the feat outside of niche builds. You can use an ioun stone or heirloom weapon to grab proficiency.
So, you will be heavily armored, have great saves, solid hp, and the ability to heal yourself whichever weapon style you choose. You want the enemy to attack you instead of your partymates. To encourage them to do so you need to be a threat, so I say 2 hander all the way. I'm partial to the nodachi, or the classic greatsword.
Two-hander is usually going to be a better choice. With Lay on Hands to swift action heal yourself you really don't need the extra AC. And without a two-handed weapon you wont deal competitive damage unless you are Smiting a creature.
Admittedly, as an option you could wield a Scimitar in two-hands (most of the time) and keep a shield with you in case you thought you needed the extra AC. You can choose to wield one-handed weapons in two-hands for the extra strength damage. The difference between a scimitar and a nodachi is 1d6 vs 1d10, so it's not a big difference in damage except at low levels.
Go with buckler and 1H weapon. You can 2-hand when you need to and you are only giving up 1 point of AC when you decide to use the shield. Also this way you have a hand free for casting and Lay Hands.
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With smite you can do more over all damage with weapon and shield. Due to haven high enough starting stats to cover two weapon fighting. The two hander will do a bit more damage unless you smite then the two weapon fighting dose more damage. You could start with your deity's favored weapon, and a spiked light shield. Changing to a spiked heavy shield after level 11. When you stop taking penalties for two weapon fighting with a shield.
Human Paladin
level 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash.
level 3: Double Slice
level 5: Power Attack
level 7: Shield Slam
level 9: Improved Bull Rush
level 11: Shield Master
Another option that can be good depending on the party. Tempered Champion archetype.
level 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash.
level 3: Weapon Focus
level 4: Weapon Specialization
level 5: Double Slice
level 7: Shield Slam
level 8: Greater Weapon Focus
level 9: Improved Bull Rush
level 11: Shield Master
level 12: Greater Weapon Specialization
Good grief, with those stats I'd take a level of Unchained Monk and flurry a weapon in two hands while using Crane Style defense (by simply changing grip to one hand when not attacking). You'll end up with fullplate and shield levels of AC while unarmored, and get to use a weapon in two hands with a bonus attack. You can even take Crusader's Flurry to flurry a favored weapon if it's worth it or you like the style.
2 hander
1) ac isn't the only way to die
2) the really hard things don't target your ac
3) you're going to get hit anyway: ac is meant to stop iteratives, monsters don't use iteratives and humanoid threats cast spells.
4) having a high ac just means they target someone else
5) dead is the best way to stop something from hurting your party.
I'll generally go two-handed over shield, but to be fair, a truly solid AC will stop a lot more than the occasional iterative attack. I know d20 gamers crave certainty, but getting hit by something like 1/2 of incoming physical attacks instead of 3/4 of them is an awful lot more useful for statistical survival than it might feel like - especially when your job description involves plunging into melee messes.
Monk/paladin with temple sword
Although I think there is crusaders flurry to flurry with other weapons too
But since he is allowing unchained monk and wants "powerful heroes"
Then paladin monk is the way to enlightenment!
My preference is sword & board with TWF and Improved Shield Bash.
Hit your opponent with that smite damage as many times as possible.
Scimitar is a better weapon choice than longsword or bastard sword.
1) ac isn't the only way to die
2) the really hard things don't target your ac
3) you're going to get hit anyway: ac is meant to stop iteratives, monsters don't use iteratives and humanoid threats cast spells.
4) having a high ac just means they target someone else
5) dead is the best way to stop something from hurting your party.
1) AC is the most tested form of defense
2) Paladins already have some of the best saves in the game3) AC can scale faster than monster to-hit
4) Unless the paladin uses available tools that say otherwise
5) More smite/round = dead faster.
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Scimitar and Shield I feel is a great set up.
You can swing a Scimitar with 2 hands with the same ability as a Falchion. The Difference Between It and a Falchion is very small damage wise. 1d6 vs 2d4. Roughly 1.5 damage on average. You still get the 15-20 Improved critical rating. You can still swing a Scimitar while grappled/grabbed, unlike a 2 handed weapon. Grab ability actually can come up quiet a bit. No need to even worry about the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. You can put a weapon chord on a scimitar or even have a locked Gauntlet.
Hands down the Scimitar is one of the best weapons in the game.
Edit: Also if you work in the Trait Dangerously Curious you increase your tools on a paladin. Being able to Use Scrolls of Mirror Image and other spells to layer up your defenses you can be really hard to handle.
Also, just to concentrate on what was alluded to above, don't underestimate how nifty Shield Slam can be, as a way to actually physically prevent a lot of opponents from reaching your squishier members. Especially if you can get Enlarge Person and/or Long Arm cast on you. If you Shield Bash for your AOOs in that widened threat area, not only do you get to whack incoming opponents, but you can also send them flying right back the way they came.
Shield Slam
Stand StillVanguard Style
Bodyguard
Cornugon Smash
Compel Hostility
There are plenty of ways to convince an opponent to pay attention to you.
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Human Paladin
level 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash.
level 3: Double Slice
level 5: Power Attack
level 7: Shield Slam
level 9: Improved Bull Rush
level 11: Shield Master
I'm not a fan of Rushing Double Slice before Power attack. I like the feat suggestions but would do:
Human Paladin
level 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash.
level 3: Power Attack
level 5: Double Slice
level 7: Shield Slam
level 9: Improved Critical Scimitar (Keep Bless weapon Up lol)
level 11: Shield Master
Level 13: Bashing Finish (15-20 Crit range that Auto confirms Crits)
Level 15: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
You can Improve your CMB with a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone + Wayfinder. Which is basically buying Improved Bull Rush to use with Shield Slam.
You can Improve your CMB with a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone + Wayfinder. Which is basically buying Improved Bull Rush to use with Shield Slam.
Thorny Crimson Ioun Stone stacks.
Thank you for the responses. I will likely lean on Greatsword..for this reason.
A) the role play is appropriate for this campaign. I still like the Bastard sword.
I have one last question is there any reason why there are no western (straight) swords with 2d4 base dmg? Also were great swords nerfed? I seem to remember them doing 3d6. Any reason for this?
If you're a real senex, you may be remmembering the two hander doing 3d6 to large opponents in AD&D 1st ed.
My 1st printing CRB lists the great sword as doing 2d6 only.
Go with buckler and 1H weapon. You can 2-hand when you need to and you are only giving up 1 point of AC when you decide to use the shield. Also this way you have a hand free for casting and Lay Hands.
He takes a -1 penalty to attack roll if he makes a two-handed attack while still having the buckler on and loses the bonus to AC.
He'd be better off just having a quickdraw shield.
With smite you can do more over all damage with weapon and shield. Due to haven high enough starting stats to cover two weapon fighting. The two hander will do a bit more damage unless you smite then the two weapon fighting dose more damage. You could start with your deity's favored weapon, and a spiked light shield. Changing to a spiked heavy shield after level 11. When you stop taking penalties for two weapon fighting with a shield.
Human Paladin
level 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash.
level 3: Double Slice
level 5: Power Attack
level 7: Shield Slam
level 9: Improved Bull Rush
level 11: Shield MasterAnother option that can be good depending on the party. Tempered Champion archetype.
level 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash.
level 3: Weapon Focus
level 4: Weapon Specialization
level 5: Double Slice
level 7: Shield Slam
level 8: Greater Weapon Focus
level 9: Improved Bull Rush
level 11: Shield Master
level 12: Greater Weapon Specialization
This is true, I didn't think about TWF since paladins don't usually have enough points in a point buy system to do so. But he has incredible stats, and so he could TWF. It will be worse when he's not smiting, but significantly better when he is smiting, but do to the number of feats required he would really need the Tempered Champion for the extra feats. I would also personally replace double slice with power attack and use the shield as the main weapon. Even two-handing the shield when not TWF instead of the off-hand weapon. He'd also want to go with a light weapon for the off-hand. Also add in Oath of Vengeance.
Yeah...I think Oath of Vengeance Tempered Champion Paladin who TWF (using his shield as his primary weapon) is the best way to go. He can two-hand the shield with power attack when not smiting and have gladius or kukri as his secondary weapon for TWF.
oath of vengeance and tempered champion can't stack.
Oath of vengeance alters spellcasting and tempered removes spellcasting.
I never go shields with paladins unless it's light shield/buckler due to needing a free hand with lay on hands. But still dislike the swapping weapon to shield-hand then lay on hands then swap back weapon to main hand action economy as I'm not a fan of that visual for my character to be doing that in combat.
Two weapon fighting looks amazing on paper but it doesn't go off nearly as often as planned.
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I never go shields with paladins unless it's light shield/buckler due to needing a free hand with lay on hands. But still dislike the swapping weapon to shield-hand then lay on hands then swap back weapon to main hand action economy as I'm not a fan of that visual for my character to be doing that in combat.
Light Shields Allow you to Use LoH without taking up the Shield Hand.
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
So you can use a Light Steel shield or a Heavy Mithral Shield (Counted as Light)
I recommend a Quickdraw Shield As Claxton says.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
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Two weapon fighting looks amazing on paper but it doesn't go off nearly as often as planned.
Mostly because People Move into the enemy giving the Enemy the first Full attack instead of the other way around.
edit: Tho a Double weapon has it's Benefits of being used like a 2 handed weapon on the Standard attack and as a TWFing weapon on the Full attack. Requires an extra feat for the exotic Proficiency but I have seen them used decently well.
I never go shields with paladins unless it's light shield/buckler due to needing a free hand with lay on hands. But still dislike the swapping weapon to shield-hand then lay on hands then swap back weapon to main hand action economy as I'm not a fan of that visual for my character to be doing that in combat.Light Shields Allow you to Use LoH without taking up the Shield Hand.
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
Yea that's why I mentioned "light shield/buckler".
So you can use a Light Steel shield or a Heavy Mithral Shield (Counted as Light)
A mithral heavy shield doesn't count as a light shield. It still occupies the hand. It being lighter doesn't change that part of the heavy shield rules. A mithral shield isn't the same as mithral armor and drops down in size category, or how the hand is being used.
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I never go shields with paladins unless it's light shield/buckler due to needing a free hand with lay on hands. But still dislike the swapping weapon to shield-hand then lay on hands then swap back weapon to main hand action economy as I'm not a fan of that visual for my character to be doing that in combat.Light Shields Allow you to Use LoH without taking up the Shield Hand.
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.Yea that's why I mentioned "light shield/buckler".
So you can use a Light Steel shield or a Heavy Mithral Shield (Counted as Light)A mithral heavy shield doesn't count as a light shield. It still occupies the hand. It being lighter doesn't change that part of the heavy shield rules. A mithral shield isn't the same as mithral armor and drops down in size category, or how the hand is being used.
My Home Group rules the shield as the armor as the only true difference between a Heavy Shield and A Light shield is thickness and weight. Unlike a Tower shield that is larger in size and thickness. Kind of Silly the Material reduces the Armor but not the shield. Cause then all your doing is paying +1000gp for a 0 ACP. Also having 0 ACP means your not that restricted by the item as well. Kind of Silly right?
But by RAW, yes, your right the Shield is not treat like the Armor.
I've just been playing the other way so long now it's integrated in my mind.
Seeing as this is supposedly a tank build
The two handed weapon is moot
Tanks don't do the most damage
They weather the storm of the mist damage
This isn't an mmo where you need to do damage to get the monster to focus on you
A tank build has feats and terrain to put himself between the enemy and his party
If the archer is siniking 100 damage a round it doesn't matter if you can add 1.5 str to your sword
So there's a difference between a tank build, and how do I do the most damage , aka a. Bruiser build.
A kensai magus with high int and Dex and flamboyant aracana is going to have more act and do more damage than a "tank"
But is must certainly not a tank
Because if he does get hit
Gore will fly
So the real question is... are you wanting to play a tank?
Or do a lot of damage?
Our Pally went sword and shield (pretty much what Calagnar and Fruian suggest) and dishes out enormous amounts of damage while smiting. You need pretty good stats to pull it off, which you could (= have the DEX for prerequisites). He is part of our team and gets the support that implies (which is not happening in all groups), namely negating the penalties for power attack and TWF.
A twohanded build is easier to do (number of feats and requisites) and also efficient (our fighter does it).
Let's look at some things:
- with TWF you want two good weapons instead of only one; one weapon and a good shield seems to be better with the bashing thing
- TWF sucks, if you can reach the foe only with charge and plink him once; do you have a way to overcome that problem at least partially?
- 2H has the alternative of learning vital strike to offset the charge problem; I don't know how it happens elsewhere, but movement is here always part of the game; being able to full-attack every round is an illusion, although we casters can sometimes arrange matters
- if you can do a full attack with TWF, the fight is over, if you get to use smite evil; with 2H that is not always the case
- 2H means less AC than TWF with a shield, although AC seems overrated in my experience (I seem always to get hit, despite wearing full plate and shield plus the various AC extras)
I would not pick up an exotic weapon, it is usually not worth the investment, unless you are really into it. A greatsword will do nicely. Not having invested feats into specific weapons makes it also easier to pick up whatever looks good at the moment.
Certain feats are worthwhile, if your campaign will use mythic rules, but are pretty bad otherwise, so keep that in mind (two weapon defense comes to mind).