Sooooo...
Just speaking as someone who's actually done the math, given the enormous amount of feats required to make it work, the multiple stacking penalties to hit, the extra cost of equipment, the reduced range, and the lack of feat and equipment options(compared to a bow build), I can safely say that throwing builds are inferior to bow builds in almost every way. There are just way, way too many instances of problems with throwing builds that are patched with a feat or money, just to bring it in line with bow builds. The problem is then that the bow builds then have a ton of extra feats and cash to work with over the throwing builds. The throwing build is always playing catch up, they can never quite get up to par.
So no, it is not impossible to make the build work, but yes, you will always have a character that is inferior in every way to other options. It is also very difficult and requires a level of system mastery and cherry picking from various sources that's absurd. Does that bother you? Don't make a thrower. Fine with it? Then have fun.
Did you do the math on Cao Phan's throwing build? Quite possibly the best throwing build you can really get.
Hm... I was considering whether that part aplies only to thrown melee weapons. The sentence immediately afterwards definitly does (as does the one before), so the sandwiched one should too. Apologies for the confusion.
In that case, Quick Draw is not necessary for Ricochet Toss and is indeed a tax feat (albeit one that can help against type DR).
And one that has use prior to ricochet shot, since it lets you attack normally (although you are more restricted to non-magic items when using it, since you are going for a more disposable route).
I still wouldn't call it a feat tax. It is more... of an obsolete foundation. Ricochet is rather much 'the same thing, but better, since it lets you reuse that fancy magic dagger'.
Did you do the math on Cao Phan's throwing build? Quite possibly the best throwing build you can really get.
The build has several mechanical and rules problems, and is still below a fully optimized archer.
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Would you like to provide an example? I have searched the threads a bit, and only saw a Level 20 example for a Zen Archer by porpentine, as well as an example Fighter Archer that Cwheezy posted.
I don't know how Cao Phen's build compares but I have a Wapriest build that throws starknives and has (at level 12) +24/+24/+19 to attack (without buffs) and deals 1d6+22 points of damage per hit. My group uses automatic bonus progression, so that helps a bit (and hinders in other ways). Buffing himself with divine power adds +5 to attack and damage and grants an extra attack, which is done easily with Fervor giving a +29/+29/+29/+24 to hit and allowing for 1d6+27 damage per hit.
I'd have to dig up old archer builds of mine for comparison, but the fact that I'm dealing between 28-33 damage per hit at level 12 is pretty damn good. Substantially more than most archery builds are able to deal on a single hit. Where archery does benefit is Manyshot giving them an extra attack.
I suspect that archery and thrown weapons are about equal at this point...however it does take getting the character Weapon Training and Trained Grace, Weapon Spec, and Startoss Style line of feats to really stack extra damage onto each individual hit.
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I suspect that archery and thrown weapons are about equal at this point...however it does take getting the character Weapon Training and Trained Grace, Weapon Spec, and Startoss Style line of feats to really stack extra damage onto each individual hit.
There are actually a few different routes to solid throwing builds. That's one.
The harrow deck throwing classes with boosted arcane strike style I outlined earlier is another.
High strength, belt of mighty hurling, and 1.5x str bonus to thrown damage like Cao Phen's build (but also possible with Stone Throwing, Goliath Druid, Raging Hurler, Two-Handed Thrower, etc) is another.
Et cetera.
(although you are more restricted to non-magic items when using it, since you are going for a more disposable route).
I suppose you could use an atlatl dart like a javalin. The dart is listed under "ammunition" (acts like a javalin when thrown without the atlatl) and should technically be enchanted in lots of 50 even if they're sold in lots of 1.
Oh wait I remember now. That rule only seems to apply to "arrows, bolts, bullets, or firearm ammunition."
ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Wait, what? An atlatl dart isn't cheaper to enchant and is destroyed when it hits its target?
After throwing an atlatl dart, the thrower must make a Will save vs 10 + damage dealt or die
Yeah, that's probably for the best.
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Here are the three numbers from the three links:
Zen Archer - (Ki Point, Deadly Aim, Flurry of Blows, Haste)
+5 Merciful Longbow - +34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19 2d10+28 (19-20/x3) + 1d6 Nonlethal
- Hammer the Gap, Nonprovoking, Threaten 5’, Ignore less than Total Concealment/Cover, Ki Focus, -1 Attack/Damage beyond 30'
I prefer Merciful for a zen archer. The vast majority of creatures will go down to nonlethal damage just as readily as they do to lethal, and having nonlethal at your disposal gives you the choice of taking captives or making kills. If you’re facing undead or constructs you can turn off your mercifulness as a standard action.
Archer Fighter - (Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Haste, Staggering Critical)
+5 Adaptive Corrosive Burst Holy Composite Longbow - +43/+43/+43/+38/+33/+28 (1d8+37 19-20/×4, Auto-Confirm) + 1d6 acid + 3d10 acid (on crit) + 2d6 vs. EvilRock Thrower (Link) - (Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, TWF, ITWF, Haste, Rage)
Rock - +39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+24 2d4+51 (19-20/ x2; Auto-Confirm)
Since I did not have a Wrist Slot Magic Item, I can get a pair of Bracers of Sworn Vengeance. Since both the Zen Archer and Fighter Archer has something there, might as well; however, that does mean that I would have to be struck first, which at 20th level, might be a really bad thing to do.
If all attacks hit (no crit):
Zen - 16d10+224 + 28 (Hammer the Gap) + 8d6 Nonlethal - 368 Average
Fighter - 7d8+259 + 7d6 Acid (+ 14d6 vs Evil) - 315 Average (+ 49 vs Evil)
Rock - 16d4+408 (+ 16d6 if struck first) - 448 Average (+56 if struck first)
Now if there are crits involved:
The Fighter will benefit from it the most (x4, Auto-Confirm, Corrosive Burst). - 3d8+111 + 3d10 Acid per Crit - 141 Average
The Zen Archer will then be second from the most benefit (x3, Hammer the Gap). - 4d10+56 - 78 Average (Hammer the Gap damage not included, since it varies on when the arrow confirmed the critial hit)
The Rock Thrower will be the weakest from it (x2, Auto-Confirm). - 2d4+51 - 55 Average
Based on per crit (Averages, no conditionals):
1 Critical Hit - Z:446 F:456 R:503
2 Critical Hits - Z:524 F:597 R:558
3 Critical Hits - Z:602 F:738 R:613
4 Critical Hits - Z:680 F:879 R:668
5 Critical Hits - Z:758 F:1020 R:723
6 Critical Hits - Z:836 F:1161 R:778
7 Critical Hits - Z:914 F:N/A R:833
8 Critical Hits - Z:992 F:N/A R:888
- If there is a single Critical Hit, the Rock Thrower still is strong in pure damage.
- After that, the Archer Fighter will dominate the charts until they are out of Iterative Attacks. Even if the enemy is immune to Acid (3.5 per hit, 16.5 per crit), it will still be on top.
- The Zen Archer will not reach the Archer Fighter, but will pass the Rock Thrower after the 4th Critical Hit.
It's also worth noting, the rock thrower isn't using a magical weapon. It's literally just to rocks off the ground. If he got himself a pair of Gloves of Shaping, he can just scoop out handfuls of rock as need to replenish his ammo.
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It's also worth noting, the rock thrower isn't using a magical weapon. It's literally just to rocks off the ground. If he got himself a pair of Gloves of Shaping, he can just scoop out handfuls of rock as need to replenish his ammo.
Using the build that I had set up, it actually uses Arcane Strike (Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 4). Going against Damage Reduction other than Magic on the other hand... Good thing you got Clustered Shot!
Unfortunately, the Rock Thrower uses the Gloves of Dueling for a +2/+2 to Attack/Damage. However, on downtime, you can use the Gloves of Shaping as much as you want. =)
Arcane Strike doesn't make it an enhanced magical weapon though. You are still just using rocks off the ground.
That go through DR x/Magic thanks to Arcane Strike. And he did mention Clustered Shots.
Cao's build never actually gains proficiency in rocks and there is no 'rock' weapon group, so it needs to drop weapon focus, specialization and training and there's a -4 penalty to attack rolls with improvised weapons missing from the math.
Did you know that taking any of the weapon proficiency feats never grant proficiency with the weapon selected?
RAW, you are correct, however, one of the abilities, I don't recall which at the moment, removes the -4 penalty for using a nonproficiency isn't weapon. This is important, as it's the exact same language used by the proficiency feats. I believe the intention is to provide proficiency, but the actual rules, both for the feats and the class ability, never explicitly grant proficiency.
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Cao's build never actually gains proficiency in rocks and there is no 'rock' weapon group, so it needs to drop weapon focus, specialization and training and there's a -4 penalty to attack rolls with improvised weapons missing from the math.
Rock Throwing is a special attack from the universal monster rules rather than anything which would fit in to the usual 'weapon groups'. None of the many examples using it apply a -4 non-proficiency penalty. Also, examples of 'Weapon Focus (rock)' exist. From these facts I would conclude that the intent is that rock throwing does indeed grant proficiency with rocks.
Somehow I see a demand coming in the next combat handbook for a Pathfinder archetype or actual prestige class for the master thrower from 3.5....
Cao's build never actually gains proficiency in rocks and there is no 'rock' weapon group, so it needs to drop weapon focus, specialization and training and there's a -4 penalty to attack rolls with improvised weapons missing from the math.
Yes it does, the Stone Oracle ability Rock Throwing gives you a racial proficiency with throwing rocks.
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Rock throwing has a crippling disadvantage that hasn't been dealt with.
The only extradimensional container that is a free action to remove an item from is the efficient quiver which can only store items approximately the size and shape of either an arrow or a javelin. Rocks are heavy. Fighting from a pile of rocks is no help because retrieving an item from the ground is also not a free action.
All this means you can't use rapid shot or get iteratives unless you actually carry all your rocks in some sort of rapid retrieval container/garment, which bags of holding are not. Need I repeat again that rocks are heavy?
Worse, the rock throwing universal monster rules tell you what size rock to throw: two size categories smaller than yourself. These aren't hand sized. To get that damage you need to be chucking rocks the size of a cat. If you're using more normal sized throwing stones you should only get improvised weapon damage. This also means you can't throw them one handed, as also implied by the 1.5x strength modifier. This means no TWF.
Look at This guy. Note that he doesn't get an iterative on rock throwing even though he has 7 BAB and does get an iterative with his club? Rock throwing is not meant to make multiple attacks.
Ranged: rock +11/+6 (1d8+12)
As for size of the rock, you are thinking size of creature, rather than a size of the weapon. A medium dagger, shortsword, longsword, and greatsword are all medium sized. It does not mean that each weapon are the size and weight of a human, elf, or dwarf.
I had explained the differences in my rational, as well as proficiency in the thread. With the medium dip, the champion spirit can give proficiency to all martial and an exotic weapon. Would a rock be considered somehow an exotic weapon? If not, is it a martial or simple? Fighters are proficient with all simple/martial.
And if not, the second build (Dwarf Favored Class Bonus) can give proficiency with it after a few levels. So hopefully that can please the second side. =)
Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Per RAW, if I take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curved Blade) am I eligible to take Weapon Focus (Elven Curved Blade)? Do note that the proficiency feat never tells me I am proficient with the weapon, only that I attack normally.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
It shows the difference between normal people and people with the feat, but that only mean you are abnormal, it never actually says you are proficient.
In that line of thinking the feat has no value. It says you make attack rolls normally and it spells out what is normal just below that...
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Indeed. It does not explicitly call it out, because the developers never wrote it as a technical document. It's obvious what was intended in this case, but not explicit.
Indeed. Likewise, it's obvious but not explicit that the rock thrower oracle ability is intended to make you proficent in rocks.
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Well, that or the writer of that particular NPC didn't know what they were doing, that happens a lot too.
Every time?
People make mistakes, sure. However, when different people make the same 'mistake' over and over again for years it's called a 'precedent', or possibly even a 'rule'.
But my issue wasn't that it's not a valid feat choice as that's another topic entirely, it's that the build never gains proficiency, which is a prerequisite for the feat.
The published builds with Weapon Focus (rock) ALSO don't have anything like 'Martial Weapon Proficiency (rock)' or any other ability granting them proficiency with rocks... unless we accept the (seemingly obvious) intent that the rock throwing universal monster rules special attack grants proficiency with... throwing rocks.
Put another way;
1: All published builds with 'Weapon Focus (rock)' also have rock throwing
2: None of the published builds with rock throwing impose a non-proficiency penalty
3: None of the published builds with 'Weapon Focus (rock)' have any ability other than rock throwing which could plausibly give them proficiency with rocks
Ergo, it seems likely that the game developers believe 'rock throwing' gives proficiency with rocks.
Indeed. It does not explicitly call it out, because the developers never wrote it as a technical document. It's obvious what was intended in this case, but not explicit.
This is exactly my point. Many abilities are intended to let someone do something, like fight with odd weapons, but the RAWnatics keep jumping in with "you can't do that, you're not proficien." If I recall, basically, the only things that actually grant proficiency, per the RAW, is the class abilities that deal with weapon and armor proficiencies. Everything else just lets you attack without the penalty, or "attack normally."
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Indeed. It does not explicitly call it out, because the developers never wrote it as a technical document. It's obvious what was intended in this case, but not explicit.Indeed. Likewise, it's obvious but not explicit that the rock thrower oracle ability is intended to make you proficent in rocks.
Agreed.
Rocks are thrown weapons. You can TWF with thrown weapons. How is that not legal?
It gives you a racial bonus with thrown rocks. It doesn't say anything about proficiency.
Does anything? (Aside from the aforementioned class abilities.)
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In that line of thinking the feat has no value. It says you make attack rolls normally and it spells out what is normal just below that...
Hadn't thought of that before. Huh, so RAW it's pointless to spend a feat to gain a weapon proficiency, because the feats don't grant proficiency? That's some... poor wording of the feats.
In that line of thinking the feat has no value. It says you make attack rolls normally and it spells out what is normal just below that...Hadn't thought of that before. Huh, so RAW it's pointless to spend a feat to gain a weapon proficiency, because the feats don't grant proficiency? That's some... poor wording of the feats.
Indeed, the only real way to gain proficiency with weapons is vis class features, and maybe a handful of other, very niche and misc. methods.
In that line of thinking the feat has no value. It says you make attack rolls normally and it spells out what is normal just below that...Hadn't thought of that before. Huh, so RAW it's pointless to spend a feat to gain a weapon proficiency, because the feats don't grant proficiency? That's some... poor wording of the feats.
Debatable. The benefit text doesn't mention proficiency, but I don't know how it's possible to parse Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Fauchard) as anything other than proficiency with the fauchard. It's... literally spelled out right there.
Rocks are thrown weapons. You can TWF with thrown weapons. How is that not legal?There is fairly heavy implications that you're supposed to throw them two handed and since we're going down the "guess what the rules are supposed to mean" rabbit hole, it's all up in t he air.
No there isn't, not even close. It says damage dealt is twice your slam damage dice, plus 1.5 strength bonus. Nowhere does it even mention how many hands it needs, not at all.
There is a huge difference between "rock throwing is intended to grant proficiency with rocks because it lets you take Weapon focus" and "throwing rocks is two-handed because 1.5 times strength".
2 handing weapons nearly always grants 1.5 times strength, but 1.5 times strength does not always mean 2handing weapons. Coonversely, having Weapon Focus always means having proficiency with the weapon.
Debatable. The benefit text doesn't mention proficiency, but I don't know how it's possible to parse Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Fauchard) as anything other than proficiency with the fauchard. It's... literally spelled out right there.In that line of thinking the feat has no value. It says you make attack rolls normally and it spells out what is normal just below that...Hadn't thought of that before. Huh, so RAW it's pointless to spend a feat to gain a weapon proficiency, because the feats don't grant proficiency? That's some... poor wording of the feats.
Spelled out in the title, yes, but as any RAWnatic will tell you, what a feat lets you do us outined in the Benefit and possibly Special section. Everything else is just fluff.
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Well, even if the monster ability rock throwing gives proficiency, the stone oracle ability is not the monster ability.
Are you sure? 'cuz... they have the same name and work the same way.
There is fairly heavy implications that you're supposed to throw them two handed...
Here, I agree. Seems clear to me that rock throwing is a two-handed endeavor. Hence the 1.5x strength bonus to damage.
...and since we're going down the "guess what the rules are supposed to mean" rabbit hole, it's all up in t he air.
Wouldn't have it any other way.
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Here is what I had stated in the other thread:
They are the size of a housecat, as mentioned, and they aren't necessarily laying around in every area. I'm not sure one could flurry with them (one in each hand, ready to go?). Rock with Returning Quality? There are still some...er...rough edges to this plan.Are you sure? When a villager panics and picks up a stone that the can normally wield, it is something that the normally fit in one hand. I believe that you are comparing the rock's size from the size of a creature, rather than the size of a weapon.
Chakrams and daggers can be used one handed for throwing. When throwing a rock via sling, though it states that damage is one size smaller, its size is still the size of a medium ammunition piece. You are not considering the rock bullet as diminuative (size smaller than 'cat').
This in turn, would instead, convert the size of a stone to a size of a skipping stone. Prismati Player would then not work. Not because the rock is too big, but the stone is too small.
