(Being able to cast spells) != (Being able to UMD on spell completion or spell trigger items)
(Having a caster level 11th or higher) != (Being able to fake a caster level with UMD)
That said, a GM can decide to let that happen, if they want it to. And I like the idea of a rogue so worried about death they defy the cosmic order to become a lich. But RAW it doesn't seem to work out.
(NOTE: The Master Craftsman feat will let you Craft Wondrous Item by 6th level as a rogue, if you take the bonus feat rogue talent, without even needing to be Unchained).
Being able to craft items by another means still in no way satisfies the specific prerequisite of "Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat".
Being able to do so with the skill tricks is not doing so by using the feat. The line is explicite in requiring the feat be involved, not simply the ability to make magic items.
I didn't say FAKE caster level, I said using the caster level of your triggered items as the caster level.
That is still not your caster level. However, since you really want this to work, just do it.
And... what is the difference between casting a spell in a wand with UMD, casting a wand in a spell as a Wizard, and just casting the spell?
The answer is in the question. A wizard can use any wand on the wizard list, even if the wand/spell combination are higher level. A 1st level wizard who got lucky and found a 7th CL/4th spell level wand could cast it. But under no circumstances would that 1st level wizard be considered to be a 7th level caster for any purpose. Otherwise any prestige class with a minimum caster level requirement would be open to any character who could grab a wand of that level. In fact, since the DC to use a wand is 20, any character who puts a point into UMD and doesn't have a negative Charisma bonus must therefore be a potential 7th level caster. Because, you know, wands.
In the first two scenarios, the person using the wand IS considered the caster, just like the third scenario where the person actually casts it.
By that logic, literally every 1st level wizard is at least an 18th level caster, provided they find a 9th spell level scroll and can roll a 19 or higher.
All the Master Craftsman feat does is let you TAKE the feats for magical crafting, not actually directly let you make the items. The Unchained rules actually state that you can, using only it, make the item directly with no need of additional feats.
The only reason I mentioned that was to point out that you did not have to wait to 20th level to qualify for Craft Wondrous Item. Still doesn't give you a caster level. You know what gives you a caster level? Being a caster.
And the reason that I'm ponying so hard on the RAW thing is that my DM issued me a challenge, and I'm looking into as many options as I can.
It's clear you really want this to be true. That being the case, I'm not going to dissuade you from thinking it's RAW.
(NOTE: Regarding non-spell-casting characters with caster levels, see literally every thread on someone trying to qualify for a caster prereq prestige class without actually being a caster.)
Hmm, there is the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype which has a caster level.
Beside this, you could multiclass. CL 11 can be achieved with 9 levels in any 6th / 9th caster class, combined with the Magical Knack trait. Adding wizard and arcane trickster might be the least deviation from the classical rogue...
In addition to Eldritch Scoundrel, Minor Magic rogue talent technically qualifies you on the spell casting front. You can only cast a cantrip, but if you'e level 11 as a rogue you have a caster level of 11.
I suppose a GM could say you have to cast "spells" plural to qualify. If he's only being literal you need to pick up a second spell via another talent. If he's trying to enforce the intent, he'll say you need actual spell casting as a class ability and shut this loophole down.
And... what is the difference between casting a spell in a wand with UMD, casting a wand in a spell as a Wizard, and just casting the spell?
The big difference is your not casting the spell. And neither are the items. UMD allows you to activate magic items. NOT cast spells. Spell training from a class that has spells as a class feature is casting spells.
Activating magic items is just pulling a mystical trigger. It is in no fashion spell casting. Actuall spell trained people do it automatically since they have the training to know what they are doing. UMD gives you a chance to do it since your learning barely enough to try to fool the item.
The difference is that your first 2 examples are not casting spells. They are activating spell completion items which is NOT spell casting.
When a wizard personally casts a spell they are personally using their spell knowledge and training to manipulate the forces of magic to actually cast a spell, something that UMD training does not come close to duplicating, hence why it is a skill and not the Spells class feature.
May I suggest, rather than this, that you look into the Eternal Apotheosis occult ritual, from Occult Realms? As an occult ritual, it does not actually require you to be able to cast arcane, divine, or psychic spells in order to complete it, so a well prepared rogue could accomplish it.
I think it's a great idea. Non spell casting Lich. Go for it, look forward to seeing the build
Arcane Anthology.
I think you still have to create the phylactery yourself, but utilizing either Rogue's Edge (Craft) or Master Craftsman should be fine.
Remember, that a phylactery is a magic item like any other. And like crafting of all magic items, you can skip any prerequisite other than the feat in the crafting process by adding +5 to the DC.
So, the total DC of a phylactery is 21. 5 + 11 [caster level] + 5 [lacks "able to cast spells" prerequisite]. A properly trained rogue literally could not fail to craft it.
Note that if you use Master Craftsman, you can make 1000gp of progress a day, so the phylactery will be done in 120 days. If, instead, you use Rogue's Edge for Craft, you have to use the typical Craft rules, which are... much slower.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
I've been planning a fighter that goes this route with Master Craftsman, and with the decent number of ways there are to gain a casterleve for small things, like cantrips, that scale with level.
Could make a cool Eldritch Guardian character.
Being able to craft items by another means still in no way satisfies the specific prerequisite of "Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat".
Being able to do so with the skill tricks is not doing so by using the feat. The line is explicite in requiring the feat be involved, not simply the ability to make magic items.
i'm fairly certain that wasn't the intent of that phrasing. what other ways could one construct a wondrous item at the time? wasn't there only the one feat? also unless they were anticipating allowing wondrous items to be crafted without the feat (rather than simply allowing more characters to acquire the feat), it would have been awkward to phrase it "Each lich must create its own phylactery, which is a wondrous item and must be crafted as such."
Usually people use rangers for martial lichens, but I want to see where this goes.
Sounds like you have all the missing puzzle pieces, now, and can go claim victory over your GM's challenge.
Good luck on your rogue's journey down the dark path!
Become a Graveknight instead, you're slightly easier to kill (you're effectively wearing your phylactery), but you're stronger and don't need to be a caster.
RAW Eldritch Scoundrel is the only method of doing it.
Otherwise you explicitly fail the caster level of 11 and ability to cast spells.
Otherwise you explicitly fail the caster level of 11 and ability to cast spells.
Please read above. When crafting items with Master Craftsman, you can treat your ranks in Craft as your caster level, and making magic items such as Wondrous Items offer an out on not meeting prerequisites.
RAW, he can do it with no archetype, and even without Minor Magic.
Even if you take it as needing an actual caster level, and "You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level." doesn't do anything for you, that's still only an additional +5 to the DC.
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Otherwise you explicitly fail the caster level of 11 and ability to cast spells.Please read above. When crafting items with Master Craftsman, you can treat your ranks in Craft as your caster level, and making magic items such as Wondrous Items offer an out on not meeting prerequisites.
RAW, he can do it with no archetype, and even without Minor Magic.
Requirement #2, the need to have a caster level and cast spells, is separate from the need to craft an item.
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Even if you take it as needing an actual caster level, and "You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level." doesn't do anything for you...
It certainly does do something. It allows you to use your Craft ranks as your caster level when making magic items, and only when making items. You still need to have your own caster level and spellcasting as a separate requirement for lichdom. Master Craftsman does not give you that. Minor Magic used to work for that, until they FAQed it back to not counting for feat and class prerequisites.
Otherwise you explicitly fail the caster level of 11 and ability to cast spells.Please read above. When crafting items with Master Craftsman, you can treat your ranks in Craft as your caster level, and making magic items such as Wondrous Items offer an out on not meeting prerequisites.
RAW, he can do it with no archetype, and even without Minor Magic.
As has already been pointed out that is purely for making magic items. You don't gain an actual caster.
The same wording is what disallows racial spell-like abilities that treat your level as your caster level for the ability, it's purely for the ability.
Or any number of abilities that say you are treated as having X levels in class in regards to one specific ability (see classes that gain a familiar and are treated as wizard when determining familiar abilities).
Only method while staying pure Rogue is through the archtype that makes you an actual caster.
Requirement #2, the need to have a caster level and cast spells, is separate from the need to craft an item.
That is not required, however, to make the phylactery.
All we need is a phylactery for the Eternal Apotheosis ritual. The ritual asks for, specifically, a "phylactery worth at least 120,000 gp".
There are no statements that it must be the same kind of phylactery used for other kinds of lich ritual. It just says "phylactery", and based on the existence of other kinds of Wondrous Item phylacteries, we can be confident that not all phylacteries are the kind you say we need a caster level of 11 and the ability to cast spells for.
In fact, it does not even state it needs to be magical for the ritual. So Master Craftsman, while a useful "just in case", is not, RAW, a requirement.
Even IF he needs "the magical lich kind", it also doesn't say he has to be the one to craft it. So there's that, as well.
Yes, a non-magical rogue can become a lich. There is nothing stopping him from completing the ritual, as long as he gets a phylactery from somewhere and rounds up a couple dozen sacrifices.
As a GM I'd house rule minor/major magic gives you the CL needed, but other than Eldritch Scoundrel, can't be done RAW.
Please let me know what it is that is keeping the rogue from doing this as written. You keep on saying it can't be done by RAW, but the more you look at things by RAW, the more the occult ritual is actually possible for a rogue to accomplish.
Please let me know what it is that is keeping the rogue from doing this as written."Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.
The original lich template is part of the core rules. It can hardly be said to trump something that came out at the end of 2015, which directly offers a new way to become a lich. (With its own definition of what the required phylactery is.)
Unless you are saying that the old rules take priority? That's a rather dangerous argument, in my opinion, especially since it means very disastrous things for every content that came out after the core book.
For example, it means the rogue could not make the phylactery even with the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype, as the core rules say only wizards, sorcerers, and bards can cast arcane spells.
Isn't there a minor artifact that can turn you into a lich?
I think it was called the Phylactery of the Failed or something like that.
Isn't there a minor artifact that can turn you into a lich?
I think it was called the Phylactery of the Failed or something like that.
The cost of stopping being you is probably one even prospective lichdom seekers are adverse to; what's the point of eternal life if it's not you that gets to enjoy it?
But indeed, that artifact exists. And it, too, has its own "required phylactery", itself.
The original lich template is part of the core rules. It can hardly be said to trump something that came out at the end of 2015, which directly offers a new way to become a lich. (With its own definition of what the required phylactery is.)What is this thing?
It's what I've been discussing all this time! The Eternal Apotheosis ritual from Occult Realms.
It just asks, for its phylactery, "a phylactery worth at least 120,000 gp". And the ritual text does not say anything about it being something you created, or you needing the ability to cast spells, or any other condition that the original core rules had in the process of becoming a lich.
Well, it does not specify what kind of phylactery is required. Magic phylacteries are sometimes as cheap to make as the Phylactery of Faithfulness, and while this phylactery is useless for the purposes of becoming a lich by any means, it does act as at least plausible evidence that we're using the normal definition for phylactery here.
Getting a phylactery to be worth 120,000 gp is difficult on a roleplay perspective, but if going by strict RAW, you can just say you buy one in a city meeting the requirements for selling items of that price. Otherwise, you can hire a wizard to make a phylactery as if for typical lichdom; it's useless to you for that particular purpose, but it's still going to be worth the requisite amount and it still meets the requirements for the ritual.
Then you just, after discovering the ritual through whatever means, collect 21 villagers, drag them to a location meeting the requirements, wait for sunset, then start the party.
I'm not sure how you're going to get a phylactery without creating it yourself, but assuming you can somehow secure one that doesn't already contain a soul, that should work.
There is that demigoddess that was turned into a lich. I mean granted that's storyline and not game rules but it shows that self-infliction is not always 100% required.
Not that this helps the OP in anyway other than 'moral support' I guess.
In this case cool kills Raw.
Being a Lich makes you a great assassin. You can patiently wait for days on end in all sorts of environments.
Would make a great solo adventurer, with conflicted morals maybe