Mage killer rogue

[CryntheCrow]

Here is how you kill a wizard as a rogue. First, you pump everything into stealth. Feats, class features, everything. You buy a ring of sustenance. Then you stalk that m@+!$+ f**+*#. Every time he tries to sleep, you toss a small rock, or make a noise relatively nearby, and you wake him up. You make him paranoid. You'll be bored, constantly on edge, because this genius level intellect is slinging spell slots at the walls trying to find you, but you know what? Sucks to suck, nerd, INT doesn't contribute to Perception scores. Or anything useful, really. He'll have 10-14 Con based on how min-maxxed he is, but heres where the long game comes in. He'll be too smart to throw away all his spell slots hunting you down. He'll save some save or dies just for you. But eventually, that fatigue is going to become exhaustion. And that exhaustion is going to become unconciousness. If he's a sorcerer, he may have a bluff or disguise skill high enough to FAKE sleeping. You'll need max ranks in sense motive and perception. Then you coup de grace that f#*%er.

...Oh, you wanted an actual, feasible build for a 1v1? Easy. Pathfinder is a broken mess. Pick an evil alignment you want, and a race of evil outsiders from that alignment. Rush the Damnation feats. Pickup minor and major magic rogue talents, ghost sound and vanish. Soulless Gaze allows you to demoralize as a swift action, move action and standard. It also allows you to stack conditions until the enemy is cowering. Craft a magic item that boosts intimidate, or simply pick options that boost it. Pick up Dastardly finish at 11.

Vanish. Stealth in. Look at that m!%~%% f!@%+% three times in one turn. He's cowering. He can't move. He can't cast. He's broken by the brimstone in your eyes. Dastardly finish with a scythe. Auto crit at x4 damage, possibly with two handed power attack. His Fort save is basically impossible, and even if he 20s, you can still keep him locked with soulless gaze.

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

Why not make friends with the wizard NPC? First, pump everything into Diplomacy. Feats, class features, everything. You buy a blob of Djezet Skin (It's like you're wearing nothing at all...nothing at all...). Then you talk to that m$&*$#%+~#$%. Every time he feels lonely up in his tower, you give him a call via sending, or come over and bring him a gift outside his dimensional rift, and you remind him that even though he is a Demigod, he has friends. You make him rethink his life. You'll be hard-pressed, constantly on edge, because this genius level intellect has left him beyond morality at this point and might see you as a lesser being. But you know what? You have a friend, mister wizwoz, even if Int doesn't contribute to Diplomacy scores. Or anything social, really. He'll have 7 Charisma based on how min-maxxed he is, but here is where the long game comes in. He'll be too lonely to throw away his chance at making such a great friend to send you away. He'll probably make a demiplane just for you. But eventually, that friendship will become love. And that love will become marriage. If he's a sorcerer, he may even be really pretty and charming and could RECIPROCATE your flirting. You'll need max ranks in sense motive and perception. Then you move in to kiss that f*@+er.

...Oh, you wanted to actually murder the guy?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

No.

[Bob Bob Bob]

...was that suggestion serious? By level 20 the Wizard has True Seeing, See Invisibility, or Arcane Sight up all the time (permanent or magic item). Or a minion who does. Vanish will not hide you (and in the case of Arcane Sight, will totally expose you). In an initiative competition the Diviner Wizard is looking at 20+10+Dex (probably at least 5)+4 (familiar), minimum. Oh, and if there's a surprise round they still get to act in it. Probably another 4 for Improved Initiative, probably a few more I'm missing. Can the Rogue reliably beat 40 initiative? Beat it at all?

In addition, it is possible to be effectively immune to the fear, or immune to the coup de grace itself a few different ways.

[Mark Carlson 255]

Thanks for the blood money history as I was confusing it with a spell that sounds almost like it from back in the 80's.
Now if I can find the time I will have to see if I can track down the spell I was remembering.
Thanks
MDC

[edduardco]

If Blood Money had been only intended as a Boss Wizard resource it had not been written as a regular spell, even more, it had not been also available for witches and magus.

[Quintain]

The problem with those saying that spellbane is the end-all-be-all of a counter to anti-magic field is that Spellbane has to specifically call out the name of the spell it is countering.

Having a unique spell unknown to the mage in question prevents this from being an effective counter.

[edduardco]

How it is that a mage of any kind worth of that title doesn't know about Antimagic Field?

[CWheezy]

What if you casted anti magic plain instead? That would mess him up.

[Quintain]

As snark as cwheezy's response is, that is exactly what I am talking about. The general effect is anti-magic. The name and description of the spell is different, but the result is similar.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So the solution for the non-spellcaster Rogue to beat the Wizard... is to hunt down a spellcaster, have them research a custom antimagic spell, and then have them put that on a scroll so they can use that. I'm pretty sure that breaks a few restrictions the OP has placed on this whole thing. Even if it didn't, it still (in theory) has the same limitations as AMF, instantaneous conjurations bypass it (quickened True Strike, Clashing Rocks).

Also utterly pointless though, since the whole thing currently takes place on demiplanes the Wizard made, which react poorly to antimagic. AMF has been off the table since we knew the contest took place on the Wizard's private demiplane, a new, custom version of AMF doesn't fare any better.

[Quintain]

If the rogue allows the wizard to dictate the battlefield, then there isn't anything that will even give him a chance, as anti-magic is the only thing that gives him anything even close to a remote chance to win.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

I don't agree that a demiplane reacts poorly to an Antimagic Field, FWIW. There's no reason to expect someone within an AMF to be ejected from the plane, for the material of the plane to dissolve, or anything else weird. Just have it work like usual.

That said, if it were my demiplane I'd make AMF an impeded spell. Casting off a scroll you'd have a d20 + 11 + Int Mod to try to make the DC 26. Probably a 50% chance at best, so bring extra scrolls.

[Quintain]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^True, although taking the Wizard alive puts a crimp on contigencies of the form "If I am killed do . . .".

A single feat from Champions of Righteous? allows for lethal damage and having the ability to pull your last shot so that they are dropped to -1 without the possibility of killing them.

[Bob Bob Bob]

If your suggestion is "don't fight the Wizard in their tower", that one's been made. A few times. Unfortunately, that's the setting the OP has to work with. Specifically: "I have, through any means I choose, gained access to his main base on his private demiplane." I don't think we ever came up with a satisfactory solution to luring them out (I think some artifact was top of the list), since it's difficult enough to find what a Wizard might want (and be willing to leave their tower and not send minions for), let alone this Wizard made up by their opponent for what's essentially an arena battle.

How is Create Demiplane not suppressed by AMF? The only exception to AMF is instantaneous conjurations. Create Demiplane has a duration of 1 day/level when used to create the actual demiplane itself. It's instantaneous for adding features to an existing demiplane, but how does that matter when the demiplane itself ceases to exist (briefly). Where exactly is the Rogue when the created demiplane disappears? They're not still on the demiplane (they can't be). The only guidance we have is:

Create Demiplane wrote:

When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw. The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage’s disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.

AMF does not dispel anything, so I see no reason it doesn't suppress it. Once AMF suppresses the demiplane, presumably the Rogue is ejected in the normal matter. If not that, they're thrown to the closest point in space to the demiplane. Either way, they cannot stay on the demiplane as it doesn't exist. The demiplane only exists because of magic, if you turn off magic it goes away.

[Abraham spalding]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

If your suggestion is "don't fight the Wizard in their tower", that one's been made. A few times. Unfortunately, that's the setting the OP has to work with. Specifically: "I have, through any means I choose, gained access to his main base on his private demiplane." I don't think we ever came up with a satisfactory solution to luring them out (I think some artifact was top of the list), since it's difficult enough to find what a Wizard might want (and be willing to leave their tower and not send minions for), let alone this Wizard made up by their opponent for what's essentially an arena battle.

How is Create Demiplane not suppressed by AMF? The only exception to AMF is instantaneous conjurations. Create Demiplane has a duration of 1 day/level when used to create the actual demiplane itself. It's instantaneous for adding features to an existing demiplane, but how does that matter when the demiplane itself ceases to exist (briefly). Where exactly is the Rogue when the created demiplane disappears? They're not still on the demiplane (they can't be). The only guidance we have is:

Create Demiplane wrote:

When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw. The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage’s disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.

AMF does not dispel anything, so I see no reason it doesn't suppress it. Once AMF suppresses the demiplane, presumably the Rogue is ejected in the normal matter. If not that, they're thrown to the closest point in space to the demiplane. Either way, they cannot stay on the demiplane as it doesn't exist. The demiplane only exists because of magic, if you turn off magic it goes away.

Because of this:

Create Demiplane, lesser wrote:

When you finish casting this spell, you may bring yourself and up to seven other creatures to the plane automatically by joining hands in a circle. The demiplane is another plane of existence, and therefore is outside the range of any spell or ability that cannot affect or reach other planes. Creatures can only enter the plane by the use of planar travel magic such as astral projection, etherealness, or plane shift. You are considered “very familiar” with your entire demiplane.

Unless you are on that other plane of existence then you can't affect it with an antimagic field, which only affects the plane of existence you are on. If you are the material plane of existence you can't even get to it with antimagic field up since you can't use magic.

About the best you can hope for is if the plane has the gate feature, you can effectively shut the gate by standing where it is. (provided you have line of effect to it).

BTW don't forget that line of effect is a thing for antimagic field too. Simply putting up a wall of force (heck even cloth really though you could then cut the cloth) is enough to block it from reaching something

[Plausible Pseudonym]

A demiplane can have the anti-magic trait and still exist. Your AMF will also only cover a tiny fraction of the total volume of even a small demiplane. Both of those seem sufficient justifications to me.

[Mavor Asku]

So what I'm taking away from this, this is a straight up fight in the wizard's tower? The wizard already knows a rogue is coming for him and knows who the rogue is? Seems to me the rogue has been a little careless with people he has talked to if the wizard found out already. It seems unfair and unrealistic that the wizard already knows who is going to try and kill him and in what way he's probably going to attempt it. Probably by then the wizard already has made multiple enemies and rivals who'd like to see him dead.

I'd like to see such a rogue start rumours about another kind of hero going after the wizard, stories about such abilities and equipment that either makes the wizard scared/paranoid and/or totally focused on the wrong person. Naturally others should continue telling those stories, maybe even exaggerating more.

That would make things alot easier already as the wizard would be scrying for the wrong person and have different spells ready for when the rogue does enter the wizard's lair. The wizard should not have any information about the rogue whatsoever, especially not on his abilities. Why not make the rogue as best as you can and only after the run, be it succesful or not, hand over the character sheet to the GM. Would be the fairest way.

As for the straight up fight where the wizard is all-prepared for the specific rogue to enter, not my cup of tea to be honest. I like the rogues I've played and they hold their own, I've also played many a debilitating and hindering characters. You'd want to either kill him outright in one attack or rob him of his ability to cast spells. Something that has been mentioned a lot already in this thread.
I'd reckon I'd give it a try via Called Shots to the neck or heart, just to wonder if it would succeed at all. Sniper archetype would certainly fit that role best.

[Bob Bob Bob]

The Wizard doesn't know the Rogue is coming. The Wizard crank calls a god (more likely two) every day to ask if anyone is coming. If they are, they crank call a god again to play 20 questions about who's coming. Spreading rumors doesn't change this, as the spell just returns "true answers" or "lies", not "rumors".

As for the surprise attack, as has been repeatedly mentioned the Wizard is most likely a Diviner, who gets to act in any surprise round and basically always goes first in initiative. There's no way to surprise attack someone who will know you're coming (even if they don't know what's going on) and always go first.

I still don't think you can have an AMF on a Created Demiplane. The bolded line you quoted prevents standing on the Astral plane next to the demiplane with AMF up (since the demiplane is a different plane), it doesn't stop you from standing on the plane itself with an AMF up. The spell has to interact with AMF in some way (since it's not immune). It's not where the spell was cast (that's a different plane of existence). It's not where the spell floats in the Astral/Ethereal (also a different plane). So it has to be the plane itself. Same place you need to be to target it with Wish and the rest. Mage's Disjunction is a burst, that doesn't even go around corners (let alone across planes) but still affects the demiplane. Again

Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote:

Effect extradimensional demiplane, up to three 10-ft. cubes/level (S)

Duration 1 day/level

It has an area (the demiplane) and a duration. Why would it be immune to AMF?

[Avh]

Honestly, i don't see how AMF will help the rogue kill the wizard. In fact, i believe that it is way more dangerous for the rogue than for the wizard.

Why ? Because once the AMF is cast, the rogue will lose a great deal of her power, while the wizard just have to move 15ft to get away (and with Overland flight cast a few hours ago, it's easy).

On the other side, undeads and called creatures are not harmed at all by the AMF for their "martial prowess", and I dare any rogue to fight a single ice devil without any magic items (I won't even write about Horned devils or greater devils, demons or angels).

Or the wizard can cast a quickened prismatic wall and cast whatever she wants to obliterate the rogue with what's left (prismatic wall is unaffected by AMF).

[My Self]

Can Wizards use Selective metamagic Antimagic Fields?

[Snowblind]

AMF isn't instantaneous, so no.

[Firewarrior44]

It's my understanding that you can technically still cast in an AMF.

AMF:

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.

Your spell is just suppressed unless say it's a Wall.Of.Force.

Also any solid barrier would shield you from the antimagic (it's an emanation) allowing you to cast other spells and have them function, but leaving the rogue still in antimagic.

[Quintain]

Personally, I'd plan on a way to become incorporeal so as to bypass all the in place defensive wards, which earth glide as a backup in case of the need to go "deeper" into stone than incorporeality will allow.

Incorporeality also ensures a 50% miss change on spells landing.

After that, liberal use of ghost touch alchemical items such as fuse grenades with silence spells on them for general shennanigans to attrition his spells memorized with silent spell metamagic.

Shot on the run feat coupled with the scout archetype gives one ranged attack auto-sneak attack that you can use to serially dispel his enchantments.

Skirmishing tactics are essential here. Incorpreality + SR + Improved Evasion gives a reasonable chance of survival against readied spells. Varying tactics and forcing him to use his memorized spells to defend himself against harassing attacks and dispelling attacks.

The bomber talent also gives sneak attack damage, with the Bomber's discovery allowing for some fun alchemist shennanigans -- note confusion bomb does not have a saving throw -- dispelling bombs will help purge his more ridiculous buffs.

I would also recommend the use of eversmoking bottles coupled with the use of a Goz mask. True Sight does not pierce smoke. Smoke allows for concealment at range.

Once you have him down to little to no buffs through harassment tactics, use the hazard crystals I mentioned earlier and take down his wisdom. This doesn't kill him, but knocks him unconscious.

Victory is yours.

[BigNorseWolf]

Any prepared wizard will escape the anti magic field by the magic of engineering

"pull the lever cronk"

[Snowblind]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Any prepared wizard will escape the anti magic field by the magic of engineering

"pull the lever cronk"

Or, y'know, let the dozen bound planetars the wizard keeps around earn their pay (or lack thereof).

They can even resurrect the wizard if he gets really unlucky and croaks it.

[Quintain]

Additional help: The ninja trick for strength or dexterity damage also will help. Since it is coupled with the ability to do sneak attack damage, your bomb damage does sneak attack damage, you get the added effect of ability damage on top of bomb damage.

The Shadow Projection spell also gives you what you need to become incorporeal for hours at a time.

[Firewarrior44]

Confusion bombs have a save as per aFAQ

[Quintain]

Ah, wasn't aware of that one.

They really need to present game changing FAQs better.

[Crayfish Hora]

I wish you the best of luck, dear rogue. I know how hard it is to want to kill the super powered lich as a rogue. Unfortunately, if you run up to hit him, he likely he has a contingency plan for everything.

If he sits at his home all day, you might as well do the same. One bad roll while scouting out his lair of evil magicry and he'll know that you're after him and then he prepares and counter prepares.

You might as well be a fighter in his eyes, trying to have their feat tree strong enough to challenge the wizard. And at the end of the day, you can only offer a truce to the wizard. Send him a letter, invite him for a few drinks, and then step on his big toe for one shot to get past his absurdly high flatfooted AC for 20d6+20+DEX nonlethal damage.

At least you'll kill his clone, or his minion dressed as him. That'll show him.

[Crayfish Hora]

And pick up worshiping a god/devil/demon that hates wizards. Make friends with their clerics and whatnot so you can get infinite tries at your destined task.

[Vidmaster7]

QUESTION since i keep seeing the bound extra planar allies thing couldn't the rogue in the same amount of infinite downtime that apparently the mage has do some gather information maybe talk to some demigods deities etc (planar travel shouldn't be to hard even for a non-magical at that level.) basicaly go above the planetars head's (or w/e outsider) talk to ether side the guy above them or the guys on the other side (grab some demons of his own) or maybe even figure out a way to free or control the planatars to even the fields probably a good number of diplomacy checks granted but should put you on equal terms or you know start a divine war w/e

[Snowblind]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

QUESTION since i keep seeing the bound extra planar allies thing couldn't the rogue in the same amount of infinite downtime that apparently the mage has do some gather information maybe talk to some demigods deities etc (planar travel shouldn't be to hard even for a non-magical at that level.) basicaly go above the planetars head's (or w/e outsider) talk to ether side the guy above them or the guys on the other side (grab some demons of his own) or maybe even figure out a way to free or control the planatars to even the fields probably a good number of diplomacy checks granted but should put you on equal terms or you know start a divine war w/e

Since the only RAW way to do that would be spells, the rogue player might consider that cheating (with good reason, the rogue only beating the wizard because of UMDomancing doesn't say good things about the rogue).

Besides, since this is a hypothetical infinite downtime wizard, the wizard can diversify prettily easily (as they should).

[Vidmaster7]

so if its limited to just class features then this is pointless and obvious. If your forbidden to think outside the box then I've lost interest. have fun kids.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

so if its limited to just class features then this is pointless and obvious. If your forbidden to think outside the box then I've lost interest. have fun kids.

We went through telling the OP this was pointless and obvious in the first 100 posts. He didn't accept, so the rest was mocking or bad advice to try anyway.

[Quintain]

I'm not sure that the wizard can justify the use of called/bound extraplanar allies in this scenario.

From my reading of Planar Ally spells, the wizard has to not only pay for the services of the extraplanar entity in question, that service has a limit on the amount of time it lasts, moreover, the service has to be in line with the wants/needs of the extraplanar ally in question.

I doubt that your average solar wants to play babysitter to a wizard just to protect him from a rogue.

If I'm wrong here, can someone explain?

[MageHunter]

Quintain wrote:

I'm not sure that the wizard can justify the use of called/bound extraplanar allies in this scenario.

From my reading of Planar Ally spells, the wizard has to not only pay for the services of the extraplanar entity in question, that service has a limit on the amount of time it lasts, moreover, the service has to be in line with the wants/needs of the extraplanar ally in question.

I doubt that your average solar wants to play babysitter to a wizard just to protect him from a rogue.

If I'm wrong here, can someone explain?

Planar Ally is a Cleric spell. Planar binding is a Wizard spell that turns them into a slave. They don't have to be paid and are bound, meaning they have no say. A foolish Wizard might be vague in the binding leading to exploitable loopholes. Of course the arbiter of that would be the GM.

Maybe a third party should be the GM to regulate and monitor the Wizard.

[Quintain]

Magehunter: thanks

Ok, looking at the planar binding spell line: Wizards are an Int based class. How many have the charisma that are sufficient to overcome the opposed charisma checks of these extraplanar creatures?

My guess is that there is a lot of hand-waving going on when it comes to Schrodinger's Wizard and Planar Binding spells.

Granted there is basically unlimited prep time, but it's still not a foregone conclusion that a bound extraplanar entity will act cooperatively as a cohort given the text of the spell.

Are extraplanar entities subject to dismissal/banishment?

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Moment of Prescience and Agonize win the Charisma opposed test.

[Avh]

Quintain wrote:

Magehunter: thanks

Ok, looking at the planar binding spell line: Wizards are an Int based class. How many have the charisma that are sufficient to overcome the opposed charisma checks of these extraplanar creatures?

I don't know... maybe that spell can help a lot ?

Let's "simulate" a call.

The standard human wizard (10/14/14/16/10/10 pre racial, with everything put in intelligence) will try to call an outsider. This wizard is at level 20 at 10/20/20/29/10/10.

Before casting greater planar binding, he will cast Magic circle against Evil (or other appropriate Magic circle) in the form of a diagram. Having +32 in spellcraft (20 ranks +3 class + 9 inte), he has no problem doing it. The called outsider will have to win a charisma check DC 30. As it is a attribute check, there is no auto success even with a natural 20.

The wizard then casts Moment of Prescience (+20 at one D20 roll, lasts 20 hours) and Eagle splendor (+4 charisma for 20 minutes). He then casts Dimensional anchor and Planar binding greater (DC 27).

We will suppose the nature of the service is opposed to the outsider but not impossible or unreasonnable (+6 to the outsider's opposed charisma roll), and the wizard will not offer any rewards (+0 to the wizard's opposed charisma roll).

Now, let's see what are the chances for a wizard to bind an outsider.

Elder earth elemental : 80% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+10 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20 DC 30), 97.5% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+6 vs 1d20+22)

Ice devil : 70% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+12 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20+5 vs DC 30), 88.75% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+11 vs 1d20+22)

Horned devil : 65% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+13 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20+6 vs DC 30), 86.25% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+12 vs 1d20+22).

Planetar : 35% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+19 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20+7 DC 30), 83.5% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+13 vs 1d20+22).

All supposing a standard wizard with no specialization, no wish factory, no borderline trick and using core rulebook only.

Quote:

Are extraplanar entities subject to dismissal/banishment?

Yes, they are. Any entity that is outside its own plane can be dismissed or banished.

[Hiruma Kai]

Avh wrote:

Planetar : 35% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+19 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20+7 DC 30), 83.5% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+13 vs 1d20+22).

I've always wondered, if you just cast an offensive spell on a creature, and it makes it save, why it doesn't immediately track you down with a few of its friends? I mean, is it realistic that a Planetar, who is a 16th level cleric with a base Int of 22 and a general of a celestial army as well, who has just been attacked by spell is just going to shrug his shoulders and do nothing?

The planar binding spell explicits states creatures may come looking for you in revenge, but you never hear how the wizard deals with that. Or that the initial summoning attempt is basically assaulting an officer of a celestial army and potentially putting you into immediate combat.

It'd be like the rogue going up to the general of the King's army and punching him in the face with a magic item which causes a Dominate Person effect and ordering the general to obey him. If the general makes his save, does he just shrug his shoulders and walk on?

[Quintain]

Quote:

All supposing a standard wizard with no specialization, no wish factory, no borderline trick and using core rulebook only.

Ok, there will still need to be a deal struck, and the details of that deal are where the weakness lies in the spell.

Quote:

I've always wondered, if you just cast an offensive spell on a creature, and it makes it save, why it doesn't immediately track you down with a few of its friends? I mean, is it realistic that a Planetar, who is a 16th level cleric with a base Int of 22 and a general of a celestial army as well, who has just been attacked by spell is just going to shrug his shoulders and do nothing?

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant about the hand-waving. Granted that resisting the spell is largely a moot point, but preventing reinforcements that will free them would be a sticking point. So a "bargain" that is agreed upon would by necessity be very short in description. That in and of itself would allow for some pretty large loopholes.

[Avh]

Quintain wrote:

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant about the hand-waving. Granted that resisting the spell is largely a moot point, but preventing reinforcements that will free them would be a sticking point. So a "bargain" that is agreed upon would by necessity be very short in description. That in and of itself would allow for some pretty large loopholes.

It depends.

Feeling something is wrong is not the same as knowing someone tried to call you from another plane.

And finding said wizard is not that easy if he protects himself with Mind blank.

On the other side, trying to rescue the planetar once called can be tricky, as the planetar may have to fight its own allies (or command them to go away), depending on the deal made during Planar binding.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Again, we have to work within the bounds of what the OP is asking. And they've specifically said that it was 1v1 (no outside allies, the exact idea rejected was "thieves guild") but bound/permanent summons were not rejected, and in fact assumed on the Wizard side.

The Wizard doesn't have "infinite" time. They have some kind of demiplane lair, and that (at a minimum) requires some setup time. Part of that setup presumably also includes making/getting the guards and minions to staff it. The highest number I've seen given on the Wizard side for bound outsiders is 20 Horned Devils (and I think that was mostly flippant). The person advocating for the Rogue was the one who suggested the Rogue summon 1,000 Lantern Archons in response.

This isn't a thought experiment. This isn't theoretical. This is a player who's GM told them "You can't build a Rogue to beat a level 20 Wizard" and they took it as a challenge and are here asking for advice. If you think the Rogue can't win with the current rules, you need to address what part of the rules you think are holding them back. Could the Rogue win if the Wizard only had a month to prepare? A week? If the Rogue could gather NPC allies? Keep in mind on that one, they probably can't be spellcasters or outsiders who cast a bunch of spells. Similar reason to why the Rogue refuses to use spells themselves. If the Wizard couldn't have bound outsiders? The OP has already said no Blood Money (because it's "cheese"), presumably they can ask to ban other things that make it impossible for them to win.

[Quintain]

Quote:

The called outsider will have to win a charisma check DC 30. As it is a attribute check, there is no auto success even with a natural 20.

Initially, the binding allows for a Will saving throw. A planetar has a will save of +19, A DC 30 save isn't exactly insurmountable. This is not including it's spellcasting abilities.

Moreover, the protective aura of All angel subtypes includes a "magic circle vs evil which prevents compulsion (mental control).

So, you are down to doing the whole bargaining for cooperation bit. Which may be a charisma check that the wizard can easily make given additional spells, but even then the Planetar is a caster as well, and should have buffs running as much as any prepared PC.

I think the Rogue, especially with the eldritch scoundrel archetype, could certainly win against the level 20 wizard, given the right amount of preparation as well as a reasonable level of preparation from the wizard.

This is why I'm delving into the weeds when it comes to the Planar Binding spell. The creatures that everyone seems to think is so easy to bind really aren't. The foregone conclusion isn't -- Angels can't be compelled (innate protection from evil prevents that). -- So that leaves demons/devils.

[Snowblind]

I virtually guarantee that the wizard will be neutral aligned. Magic Circle won't do diddly.

[Quintain]

Protection from evil prevents mental control, regardless of source.

I also checked, the two bigs of the demons Balor and Marilith both have unholy aura. Prevents compulsion.

Quote:

We will suppose the nature of the service is opposed to the outsider but not impossible or unreasonnable (+6 to the outsider's opposed charisma roll), and the wizard will not offer any rewards (+0 to the wizard's opposed charisma roll).

If this is the case, that is perfect. It plays right into my tactic. Now, here's where the lawyer in me says you need to write out the terms of this planar binding's service.

This is where the great weakness of the planar binding spells exist. Unless you cover every eventuality, the rogue will be able to essentially bypass these "guards" via diplomacy.

[Snowblind]

Quintain wrote:

Protection from evil prevents mental control, regardless of source.

...

Please check your sources before making statements like that.

FAQ wrote:

Protection From Evil: Does the "protection against possession and mental control" aspect work against non-evil controlling spells and effects?

No. The spell says "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects." So if a chaotic neutral enemy casts charm person on you, protection from evil doesn't have any effect because neither the spell nor the caster is evil.

[MageHunter]

Is it weird that through planar binding, by enslaving angels three times you could shift to Good or Neutral?

[Vidmaster7]

See the other problem is you have to fight the wizard completely on his terms he gets to choose where the fight is and the weapon not many people can win in that situation. why is it the mage doesn't have to come after the rogue (then its a stalemate right?) or a neutral ground instead of the wizards fortress a giant arena both combatants come in unprepared for the other one and go at it (much fairer then infinitely prepared mage with infinite resources) Really though the whole fallacy is there not really PC's battling there more like DMNPC they didn't have an adventuring career that shaped what they are what spells or tactic they favor whats feats etc. the only influence is hypothetical each other. too sterile

[Snowblind]

The thing is that as far as I know the rogue player agreed to these terms.

If I was the rogue player but I got to play with an entire 4 man party of tier 1 casters built any way I desired, I would still expect to lose horribly. The fact that the rogue player expects to win despite the odds being horribly stacked against them reeks of hubris.