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We are told "A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality." as part of construct traits. infernal healing and the like grant you the fast healing special quality for the duration of the spell. Therefore, a construct benefits from the spell.
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1.
Fast Healing (Ex) A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptional rate
We see that the spell gives fast healing, and we see that Fast Healing (Ex) is a special quality and a search will tell you that Fast Healing (Ex) is the only possible ability referenced by the spell. Per the rules text in construct traits, we're told that the fast healing special quality works.
The spell doesn't say it gives you healing like fast healing, or that works like fast healing but not. It says it gives you fast healing.
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I was informed of this myself from somebody else in our area. It isn't something I made up out of the blue.
Is that not the rules I quoted above?
Looking at Undead, I think that the phrasing makes it so that the higher level Undead that have Int may be able to benefit from the temporary spell effect, though Skeletons and Zombies certainly wouldn't.
It is true that a specific monster can have Fast Healing on their own, either having it in the Bestiary entry or gaining the Evolution. It is, though, different than a spell giving the effect to it.
Uh, Skizzers? How does the creature absorb the anointed spell component if it doesn't have the means to do so?
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@Thax: Not really sure what your point is. I mean, your own quote:
Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired
via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s
description for details) or through the use of the Craft
Construct feat. Constructs can also be healed through
spells such as make whole. A construct with the fast healing
special quality still benefits from that quality
Says constructs can benefit from fast healing. So I don't really see the point in trying to argue that they can't have fast healing, when it very clearly says they can.
Side point, and only slightly off topic: Inner Sea Races did add a racial trait option for the Wyrwood.
Repair Magic
Source Inner Sea Races pg. 217
Some wyrwoods have developed magic to keep them more self-sufficient. They can use make whole as a spell-like ability once per day. This racial trait replaces darkvision.
Self heal 1d6 per level (max 5d6) once per day. 10 minute cast, so not in combat, but that's still a very strong ability with no real consequences.
On a further side note, if I were making a Wyrwood character, I'd look into Godless Healing, since divine magic is unlikely to be my friend in most parties purely because I'm a construct.
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I do not think anyone is disputing the fact that constructs (or undead) can benefit from fast healing. Rather, what is not supported is the assumption that they always do benefit from such.
Indeed, there are spells like Kiss of the First World which specifically only provide fast healing to living creatures... so we definitely cannot just say 'constructs and undead always benefit from fast healing'.
The question then becomes, 'what is the default assumption when a healing power doesn't specify what type(s) of creatures it effects'? I have seen no evidence presented that, 'it affects all creatures' is in some way more clearly the intent than 'it only affects living creatures'. Ergo... GM fiat.
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I....what?
Target: living or undead creature touched
Living Creature: A living creature gains a 20-foot increase to his base land speed and a +2 insight bonus on all Charisma based skill checks. In addition, the creature gains fast healing 2. Fire, acid, and negative energy cause this fast healing to stop functioning on the round following the attack.
Target: creature touched
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1.
One has a target of "living or undead creature" while the other has a target of "creature touched".
Sorry, but any creature touched benefits from this spell.
Undead, living, construct, plant, the Demon Lord Noticula, everyone.
There is no rules text anywhere (or evidence beyond "someone else told me that this is how it works) that constructs can't have Fast Healing.
Hell (get it? Infernal Healing?), the construct/undead traits even specifically mention that
A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
and
The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
.
1. Infernal Healing gives a creature touched Fast Healing 1.
2. The Fast Healing gained is an (EX) ability (although the spell giving it to you is not).
3. The Fast Healing quality works both for constructs and undead.
4. Both undead and constructs benefit from Infernal/Celestial Healing.
5. That simple. No ands, or, or buts about it. Don't pass Go, don't collect $200, just regain 1 (or 4 for the improved version) hit point per round.
Ergo...rules text.
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One has a target of "living or undead creature" while the other has a target of "creature touched".
Sorry, but any creature touched benefits from this spell.
Undead, living, construct, plant, the Demon Lord Noticula, everyone.
Maybe if you kept reading? To the part where Kiss of the First World says that it HURTS undead? In any case... it clearly has NO effect on constructs. So... Fast Healing, but not for constructs or undead.
There is no rules text anywhere (or evidence beyond "someone else told me that this is how it works) that constructs can't have Fast Healing.
Yes. Constructs CAN have fast healing. Indeed, I said that in the post you are 'responding' to;
"I do not think anyone is disputing the fact that constructs (or undead) can benefit from fast healing."
3. The Fast Healing quality works both for constructs and undead.
Sometimes. NOT all of the time.
My apologies, the "this spell" was referring to Infernal Healing.
I was simply pointing out that Infernal Healing didn't call out "living or undead" creatures. Why else would Kiss of the First World have referenced the difference in "creatures touched" and "undead or living creature touched"?
Can I ask, however, when the Fast Healing quality does not function for Constructs?
Keep in mind that the Construct Traits section specifically calls out that it does still function for constructs.
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Why else would Kiss of the First World have referenced the difference in "creatures touched" and "undead or living creature touched"?
Again, this comes down to the default assumption when a spell/power DOESN'T specify. You are assuming that means it works on everything. Conversely, it seems entirely possible that some spells don't specify because they just assumed living targets;
Goodberry... should constructs or undead gain healing from eating food?
Blessing of the Salamander... regenerative "skin"... so would it work on a skeleton or a moving statue that don't HAVE skin?
Maybe some of these effects work on all creatures and some don't... but the fact that they do not say does NOT mean that it is safe to assume they work on everything.
Can I ask, however, when the Fast Healing quality does not function for Constructs?
You quoted it yourself... only "living or undead" creatures are valid targets for the Kiss of the First World spell. Constructs are neither. Ergo, that is an example of a fast healing effect which does not work for constructs (or undead).
Keep in mind that the Construct Traits section specifically calls out that it does still function for constructs.
If they have it. As written, that really just means that a construct with 'fast healing' in their stat block gains the normal benefit from it. That said, there ARE other effects which provide fast healing to constructs... for example, the Rapid Repair spell is fast healing for constructs ONLY (not undead or living creatures).
You can get the Share Healing feat. (although it doesn't seem to be on the list of feats an animal companion can learn?)
Oh wait, actually after re-reading that i don't think it would work for this situation (or any situation really). The feat says the healing only goes from you to your companion.
It's actually terribly written, currently an animal companion will never be able to take the feat since they can't satisfy the prereq of "Ability to acquire an animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount.", which means you will never get to use it since your companion has to have the feat for it to work.
Interestingly if you were to multiclass Druid/Inquisitor you could use Solo Tactics to halve the healing effects on yourself for absolutely no benefit to your animal companion, lol.
It'll work. Key text: "When you and your companion creature have this feat". Since your companion has this feat, they can be healed and share with you, as you are their companion also.
With the Prerequisite of "Ability to acquire an animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount.", you need a way to get the feat on your companion without meeting the Prerequisite. Any class with a share teamwork feat ability should suffice.
/cevah
As for the long debate you two are having regarding fast healing, yes, constructs can have fast healing. A Shield Guardian Golem has fast healing 5.
As for gaining fast healing, it would depend on the source, but nothing prevents constructs from having fast healing once they have it.
Thank you for making it clearer, that last sentence is one of the things I have been trying to get across.
For the others, lets take a look at all of it.
........Thus far, we know that Constructs do not heal damage over time ("...on their own.") and that we need to see the creature's description for any effects that can repair it. It can also be healed with spells, though it specifically mentions "Make Whole" as an example. It has no Con, something that it shares with Undead.
Let's take a look at the relevent part of Fast Healing
... Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. ...So, with this statement by itself, it is just like having a Natural Healing.
If Fast healing heals just like natural healing, and natural healing does not work for constructs, the logical conclusion is that fast healing can't work on constructs. Something that is clearly not true all the time since constructs can have and benefit from fast healing. Since your conclusion is wrong, some set of assumptions must be wrong. In this case, the assumption that fast healing heals like natural healing must be wrong since the other half is rule text.
It goes on to mention that HP still won't be recovered from Starvation and such, and it doesn't regrow parts (like the next step from Fast Healing does, Regeneration)
So, at this point we know that Cure spells will not likely work on Constructs,
No we don't.
Nothing about being a construct prevents healing by a cure spell.It is the cure spell's limitation of "living creature" that prevents it, not anything about the construct.
having to use other means to repair damaged constructs, and that they (Constructs, Undead, and Eidolons) do not have the Natural Healing process. (I hope we are agreed on at least this point)
My, and others, contention is that the spell, specifically those of an Arcane nature, giving Fast Healing to the target will not work on those that do not have the natural healing process to augment with that ability.
Where the h*** does that "Arcane nature" come from? Stop embellishing the rules with house rules.
Since you agree that constructs with fast healing do actually heal, and since the spell gives the creature that ability (and not actual healing), the construct has the ability for a time. Why then will it not heal in that time?
I was informed of this myself from somebody else in our area. It isn't something I made up out of the blue.
My first thought was "Gee, I heard it on the internet, so it must be true."
Is this someone you heard it from well versed in the rules or just making stuff up to cover a lack of knowledge? Show them this thread and see what they say.
/cevah
As far as I am aware, there isn't any place in the rules where it says that creatures need natural healing to benefit from Fast Healing, especially when the source is magical. Just because Fast Healing says it works like natural healing doesn't mean that it IS natural healing, it doesn't "build off" of a creatures ability to heal itself naturally, it just appears to work in the same way.
If a spell bestows an ability to "creature touched" and does not place any limiting factors (such as specifying that it does not work on undead or constructs or creatures without a CON score) it works on ANY CREATURE.
In this case, the rules stating that "the construct cannot heal damage on its own" don't apply because a spell that heals isn't the creature healing damage on its own, its magic healing the creature.
Additionally, "often can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details)" does not mean that it can only be healed by effects in its description, it just means that you can find SOME of them there.
In terms of RAI I could see an argument that only spells that repair objects (like make whole) work on constructs, but if a DM ruled that way it would be completely house ruled. In terms of RAW there isn't really any basis that I know of for saying infernal healing doesn't work on constructs.
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I think the majority of the opinion in this rule thread is that Fast Healing works on constructs (until the FAQ or some such says that it doesn't).
That continues to be the wrong question.
Fast Healing from the Rapid Repair spell definitely works on constructs.
Fast Healing from the Kiss of the First World spell definitely DOES NOT work on constructs.
Fast Healing from the Blessing of the Salamander or Infernal Healing spells doesn't specifically say whether it works on constructs.
Many here are arguing that if the healing (fast or otherwise) spell/effect does not say whether it works on constructs then the answer MUST be yes. I'd say rather that the answer COULD be no. There are these people called GMs who get to decide how things work when the rules don't say. Some of them might decide that magical healing is for living creatures by default and only works on constructs (or undead) when it specifically says so. Others might decide that effects which work based off living processes (e.g. eat this rejuvenating Goodberry, get regenerative skin from this Blessing of the Salamander) don't work for creatures that are not alive.
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I think the majority of the opinion in this rule thread is that Fast Healing works on constructs (until the FAQ or some such says that it doesn't).That continues to be the wrong question.
Fast Healing from the Rapid Repair spell definitely works on constructs.
Fast Healing from the Kiss of the First World spell definitely DOES NOT work on constructs.
Fast Healing from the Blessing of the Salamander or Infernal Healing spells doesn't specifically say whether it works on constructs.Many here are arguing that if the healing (fast or otherwise) spell/effect does not say whether it works on constructs then the answer MUST be yes. I'd say rather that the answer COULD be no. There are these people called GMs who get to decide how things work when the rules don't say. Some of them might decide that magical healing is for living creatures by default and only works on constructs (or undead) when it specifically says so. Others might decide that effects which work based off living processes (e.g. eat this rejuvenating Goodberry, get regenerative skin from this Blessing of the Salamander) don't work for creatures that are not alive.
Linkified.
RR calls out working on constructs
KotFW calls out only affecting "living or undead creature touched" in the area. Since a construct is neither, it does not work on it.
BotS works for any creature. Constructs are creatures, so it works.
For the answer to be NO, when the spell states YES, you must come up with a reason. The construct traits is the usual place to look. But then the answer is clear. However, I have not heard of any healing spell blocked by the traits, but many blocked by the limits of the given spell (like KotFW above).
If you only have healing for living creatures by default, then you are making a house rule.
If you rule effects based off living process don't work on constructs, then you are making a house rule.
If you want to discuss house rules, try the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum.
/cevah
There are these people called GMs who get to decide how things work when the rules don't say.
You're absolutely right; when the rules don't say either way, the GM gets to decide.
But the rules do specifically say. The "target" line of the spell tells us the spell (I dermal Healing, Blessing of the Salamander, whatever spell you choose to use) works on the targets specified in said line: "creature touched".Tell me, why else would spells such as Dominate Person call out "humanoid"?
Why does Kiss of the First World call out "living or undead creature touched"?
Answer: because the target line itself is telling us who (or what) the spell works on. This is the rules text saying how things work.
Any GM (outside of PFS) absolutely has the right to declare any and all rules in the game null, or change any facet of the game that he chooses to do so.
Saying that spells that specifically allow constructs and undead to benefit from them is very clearly a houserule, and as such, belongs in the House Rules forum. Not the Rules Questions forum.
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To go further into the Fast Healing discussion, the next step, Regeneration, specifically states that creatures without a Con stat can not gain the ability.
My overall point was, and still is, that the spell targets need to be able to use the ability to gain it.
I would like to acknowledge the examples that CBDunkerson has proffered, and thank him for considering both sides of the conversation.
I would also like to add something that I think deserves a special mention. The curative nature of the ability (and the spells that gives it on a temporary basis) is the monkey wrench in the works. There are assumptions that I come to based on the curative nature of the spell that parallels with the Positive Energy spells that a cleric typically wields. It is with that assumption that I and others have in the back of our minds when we see the correlation between Fast Healing and the Natural Healing that is mentioned in the Core Rulebook.
Regeneration does in fact state that creatures that don't have a Con score can't have the quality. So, why does Fast Healing not state that exact sentence?
You pointed out an example of a similar healing ability that apparently does rely on "natural healing", as it references Con. Which means that the other healing abilities that don't specifically state that they don't work (whether through wrong creature type or specifically calling it out) actually work as intended.
My overall point was, and still is, that the spell targets need to be able to use the ability to gain it.
You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1.
A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
giving it fast healing 1.
fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
fast healing 1.
fast healing special quality still benefits
Constructs actually can use the fast healing special quality.
Infernal Healing grants creatures the fast healing special quality.Constructs benefit from Infernal Healing.
It cannot get any clearer than that.
There are that I come to based on the curative nature of the spell that parallels with the Positive Energy spells that a cleric typically wields.
I stressed the important word here. Assumptions. Based on no real facts or rules text support.
You are comparing this spell available to the arcanist, bloodrager, magus, sorcerer, wizard, and summoner (unchained and normal) to divine magic.
When cast by one of the classes above, it is an arcane spell, powered by arcane magic, with no connection to positive energy at all. Like, none.
Neither of the words "positive" or "energy" appear anywhere within the text of the spell.
You are jumping to the conclusion that Infernal Healing somehow uses positive energy at all in providing the fast healing.
This conclusion is wrong.
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You're absolutely right; when the rules don't say either way, the GM gets to decide.
But the rules do specifically say. The "target" line of the spell tells us the spell (I dermal Healing, Blessing of the Salamander, whatever spell you choose to use) works on the targets specified in said line: "creature touched".
Believe what you like, but I think you will find that there are plenty of GMs who will say 'no' if you tell them your necromancer is feeding a Goodberry to a Skeleton to heal it... or making its non-existent skin regenerative via Blessing of the Salamander.
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It is obvious that Infernal Healing does not use Positive Energy, but it does use an ability that heals in some way, hence I think of the parallel of healing.
As me and CBD have stressed, Constructs benefit from Fast Healing when they already have it, much the same as the Eidolon gaining the Evolution. My understanding is that the spell will not help for the reasons I stated above.
Regeneration requiring Constitution score is a pointless legacy thing anyway. In D&D 3rd edition regeneration converted lethal damage into non-lethal damage except for the specific sources of damage deadly to the creature (like acid and fire for troll) and healed non-lethal damage. Creatures without Constitution score were immune to non-lethal damage so, the regeneration required Constitution score to work or the creature would be unkillable (and even then Ravenloft just went around the issue by adding rules for regenerating undeads). With the redesign of regeneration for Pathfinder, the Constitution requirement should had been dropped but wasn't for some inscrutable reason.
Constructs benefit from Fast Healing when they already have it, much the same as the Eidolon gaining the Evolution.
Where is this stated? This rule would certainly help clear things up, but it's nowhere to be found. It doesn't say "constructs can benefit from the Fast Healing quality if they already have it from their original stat block". It says "Fast Healing still works for constructs".
Believe what you like, but I think you will find that there are plenty of GMs who will say 'no' if you tell them your necromancer is feeding a Goodberry to a Skeleton to heal it... or making its non-existent skin regenerative via Blessing of the Salamander.
As I said earlier, GMs are free to ignore the actual rules in front of them and houserule however they like. That belongs in the houserule forums, however.
Specifically addressing Goodberry and Blessing of the Salamander:
-Goodberry: it doesn't state it's positive energy. There's no standing for denying undead the healing within the set of currently existing rules. Although, I will admit that the usage of the word "cute" in the spell lends your stance slightly more credibility.
-Blessing of the Salamander: so, this is you saying that things without skin can't benefit from this spell, and not you saying undead cannot benefit? Because there are plenty of undead out there that have skin. Even if you choose to focus on the obvious flavor text (the slick and clammy salamander skin stuff), then creatures with any amount of "skin" can benefit from it, including zombies, most constructs (skins of metal), etc.
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"Were is this stated?"
I believe this is where we part ways. You are looking for a rule that states "You can do this, but not that" when the spell is written with very little information concerning the target of the effect.
The overall state of the target should be taken into consideration. For example, when a target is blind, Darkvision will do nothing for him. If the target has no tail, a feat giving a tail slap upgrade will do nothing for him.
To be sure, situations like this mostly accure when using Racial Heritage with other race traits/feats that augment the race's features that the Human counterpart does not have.
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Cyrad has pointed out that the two abilities, Natural Healing and Fast Healing, are not the "same" and that they are disconnected to one another. this is my answer...
It is exactly what that means.
"Except where noted here, fast healing is
just like natural healing."
Meaning, this is the same as, except the rate is increased to 1 HP a round, it will not heal damage from starvation, thirst or suffication, and so on.
Not sure how you come to the conclusion that the two abilities are not connected to one another. Why even mention it in the entry if it wasn't?
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Believe what you like, but I think you will find that there are plenty of GMs who will say 'no' if you tell them your necromancer is feeding a Goodberry to a Skeleton to heal it... or making its non-existent skin regenerative via Blessing of the Salamander.You're absolutely right; when the rules don't say either way, the GM gets to decide.
But the rules do specifically say. The "target" line of the spell tells us the spell (I dermal Healing, Blessing of the Salamander, whatever spell you choose to use) works on the targets specified in said line: "creature touched".
Definitely up to the GM, but I do think that if the spell's description describes a spell working in a way that is impossible with your creature, the spell probably won't work. Goodberry, for example, would reasonably require a digestive system. A skeleton doesn't have this, so likely doesn't benefit. Again, up to the GM.
On a related point, a buddy GM was suggesting that you could use the skill Craft, to take Craft Construct as a skill, rather than the feat, and use that to repair constructs (even in PFS). I don't think it works like this, but I can see the logic enough to mention it here. Either way, it doesn't present an option for healing in combat.
Oh, another one that came to mind would be the Celestial Bloodline 1st level power. Has a ray attack which heals good aligned creatures and damages evil aligned creatures, with no distinction for damage type or creature type. The healing is pretty minimal (d4, +1 per 2 Sorcerer levels) and it only works once per day per target creature. Still, looks to be an option and can be taken by any character with Eldrich Heritage. You would have to play a Good Construct for it to heal, of course.
You COULD always try to explain 'why' a demon's blood could make a construct's parts go back together. It doesn't really seem all that plausible when looked at it that way, though one could definitely see how a construct could be build to self-repair - which is why you'd be able to build a construct with fast healing.
You COULD always try to explain 'why' a demon's blood could make a construct's parts go back together. It doesn't really seem all that plausible when looked at it that way, though one could definitely see how a construct could be build to self-repair - which is why you'd be able to build a construct with fast healing.
That kind of rationalization is perfectly fine; take it the houserule forum, because that's where it belongs.
when the spell is written with very little information concerning the target of the effect.
Actually, we get the most specific target information we could ever receive: the type of target the spell itself targets. Which is "one creature touched".
Constructs? Creatures, valid target. Undead? Creatures, valid targets.The overall state of the target should be taken into consideration.
Wait, really? Why? Why does it matter? No other spell ever takes the "overall state of the target" into account, unless specifically stated (such as raise dead needing "dead creature touched").
Not sure how you come to the conclusion that the two abilities are not connected to one another. Why even mention it in the entry if it wasn't?
To be honest, I really don't understand why that "just like natural healing" part of fast healing is in there.
But it doesn't actually matter.Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect...
This doesn't say "cannot heal damage through natural healing because they don't have natural healing", or else you might have a point.
It's quite logical to assume that since a construct does not sleep, it does not have "natural healing", as that requires a night's rest to achieve.
What isn't logical is to continue that line of thought to assume that constructs cannot benefit from the fast healing quality because they don't have "natural healing" (even though it "construct traits" specifically mention fast healing still works for constructs; not when they have it from their base stat lock, but whenever they get it, from whatever legal source).
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In the Core rulebook, Natural Healing is mentioned as a part of the regular process, it isn't spelled out as an ability like Fast Healing in the Bestiary. It is something that most characters will have for their characters, even Elves need to trance to refocus and regain vigor for themselves.
That the Constructs do not heal on their own means that they don't have the means to regain the HP they have lost. On the other hand, they also do not starve, sleep, breath and other natural things that a living creature does to keep living or begin dying.
The Eidolon specifically mentions the Natural Healing process by stating that they don't have it, and since summoners do not have Cure spells in there spell list, they have one specific to the Eidolon to use instead. This, in my mind, is a poor design, one that takes a spell slot from the Summoner to use for that specific spell, or have to rely on clerics/healers to heal their Eidolon for them.
The mention for Constructs being able to use Fast Healing is for those specific creatures that actually have the ability.
Now, I know the letter of the rule seems to point to conclusions that would be the same as any other target. My assertion is that it is not.
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That kind of rationalization is perfectly fine; take it the houserule forum, because that's where it belongs.
Yeah, the 'my way is right, your way is a house rule' schtick never ceases to be obnoxious.
No other spell ever takes the "overall state of the target" into account, unless specifically stated (such as raise dead needing "dead creature touched").
Funny, in my games every spell takes such things into account;
Phantasmal Killer may say that it impacts "one living creature", but if you cast it on a giant beetle nothing happens... despite them definitely being living creatures.
Keen Edge cast on "one weapon" that happens to be a mace? Nope, not gonna work.
Burning Hands at a target under water? No effect.
Et cetera.
It's almost like the 'target' line alone isn't sufficient to determine whether a spell works in a particular circumstance.
Most notably, you cite Raise Dead... "dead creature touched". As you put it;
Constructs? Creatures, valid target. Undead? Creatures, valid targets.
Except... they aren't. Raise Dead doesn't work on either constructs or undead, DESPITE them being creatures. Ergo, the simple fact that a healing spell targets 'creatures' does NOT (as you keep insisting) inevitably mean that it works on constructs and undead.
The mention for Constructs being able to use Fast Healing is for those specific creatures that actually have the ability.
Funny, I don't see that in the rules.
No other spell ever takes the "overall state of the target" into account, unless specifically stated (such as raise dead needing "dead creature touched").Funny, in my games every spell takes such things into account;
Phantasmal Killer may say that it impacts "one living creature", but if you cast it on a giant beetle nothing happens... despite them definitely being living creatures.
Phantasmal Killer is mind-affecting
Mindless creatures (those with an Intelligence score of “—”) and undead are immune to mind-affecting effects.
A beetle is of type Vermin, which is mindless.
No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Reading the spell agrees with you.
Keen Edge cast on "one weapon" that happens to be a mace? Nope, not gonna work.
The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons.
Light Mace is of type bludgeoning
Heavy Mace is of type bludgeoningReading the spell agrees with you.
Burning Hands at a target under water? No effect.
Burning Hands is a fire spell
Underwater-Combat talks about this:Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described.
RAW gives the spell a chance to work.
Et cetera.
It's almost like the 'target' line alone isn't sufficient to determine whether a spell works in a particular circumstance.
Which is why you read the entire spell, the rules for the type of spell, the environmental rules, and more. Knowing all the rules is hard work and takes time and effor to master.
Most notably, you cite Raise Dead... "dead creature touched". As you put it;
Constructs? Creatures, valid target. Undead? Creatures, valid targets.Except... they aren't. Raise Dead doesn't work on either constructs or undead, DESPITE them being creatures. Ergo, the simple fact that a healing spell targets 'creatures' does NOT (as you keep insisting) inevitably mean that it works on constructs and undead.
Raise Dead has its own issues. Once a creature dies, it becomes an object. So there is no such thing as a "dead creature". There is an object that was a creature when alive.
As to not working on constructs and undead, the target "dead creature" implies "former living creature". As neither constructs nor undead become former living creatures when killed, it is no surprise the spell does not work on them.
/cevah
@CBDunkerson: I'm sorry, but if you choose to ignore the rules text in front of you and instead insert your own rules interpretations or changed, then that is by definition a houserule. I'm not trying to be obnoxious here, just pointing out that houseruling things the way you want actually is fine.
And I think you're taking things out of context from my posts.
If you'll look at the line you quoted:
Constructs? Creatures, valid target. Undead? Creatures, valid targets.
It is before me even mentioning Raise Dead in my argument. In fact, there is an entire other quote that that Raise Dead example (separated in parentheses from the rest of the response) is responding to after that before I use the Raise Dead example.
That quote with the parentheses:
unless specifically stated (such as raise dead needing "dead creature touched").
This is actually making the exact same argument you are when you respond to my quotes erroneously.
I am saying that no spell ever takes into account the state of the target (type, subtype, alignment, etc.), . Heck, I even use the words in the quote you responded to.
All of the spells you used as examples are also examples of the "unless otherwise stated" clause.
If you use a mind-affecting spell that targets "one creature" on a creature that is immune to mind-affecting, it doesn't work. You're right.
But I'm saying that Infernal Healing has no such "otherwise stated" rules text.
Like I said upthread:
1. Infernal Healing gives "one creature touched" Fast Healing 1.
2. Constructs are, in fact, creatures. And they can, in fact, be touched.
3. The Fast Healing quality functions normally for constructs. Not "for constructs that have it." Not "only for constructs that receive it from their base creature". It works. For all constructs. Ever.
4. No text in Infernal Healing requires "a living creature". It specifically states "a wounded creature". (So, perhaps it has to be amazed already, but that's not the question here.)
5. The Fast Helaing granted by Infernal Healing works for Constructs.
Except... they aren't. Raise Dead doesn't work on either constructs or undead, DESPITE them being creatures. Ergo, the simple fact that a healing spell targets 'creatures' does NOT (as you keep insisting) inevitably mean that it works on constructs and undead.
Again, I was referring to Infernal Healing when I wrote that. Could I have been more clear there? Yeah, probably. But I don't even mention Raise Dead until the next paragraph, in parentheses, with the words "for example," in front of it.
I was clearly not talking about Raise Dead there, nor have I been "insisting that all Helaing spells that target a creature work on constructs/undead". I have never claimed that.What I am insisting upon, however, is that any spell that states "one creature touched", and does not even have the words "living", "undead", or "construct" in the text works on exactly who and what the spell says it works on: "one creature touched".
That the Constructs do not heal on their own means that they don't have the means to regain the HP they have lost.
Undoubtedly false.
There are plenty of constructs that have the ability to "regain the HP they have lost" (Fast Healing, SLAs like make whole, special abilities like the clockwork soldiers (EX) ability to repair clockwork constructs, etc.).
What this part of the rules text means is that they don't have "Natural Healing". If left to their own devices, with no special abilities or such, they will remain at the same hit point total forever. That is it.
It does not mean that they can never heal damage to themselves by using their own abilities on itself, unless you mean to say that paragraph disallows intelligent constructs from using spell-like abilities or spells such as Make Whole on themselves?
Because that'd be an interesting interpretation of the rules.
The mention for Constructs being able to use Fast Healing is for those specific creatures that actually have the ability.
Yeah.....no.
A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
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Funny, everything that you mention Bigrig one oh seven seems to be abilities that the specific creatures have already or is the mentioned "example" of how one can repair a construct.
Most constructs are directed automations, but those that do have abilities and the foresight to do so, will use them to effect their own survival. That is a very limited number of constructs that can do this.
Read that quote you have there again. "...with the Fast Healling..." Meaning when it has it, not when it gains the ability on a temporary basis.
The rules, in general, can not say every little thing that one Can Not do. This is where some try to double wield Earthbreakers, get stacking bonuses from stats and other such nonsense that the rules didn't say "No." in explicit, straight up legalize. I prefer the Core Rulebook to be one volume, not ten volumes of rules for each chapter, with a 100 page book for each class.
Most targets are a valid for the spell "Infernal Healing," which will give the ability (from the Bestiary) Fast Healing for 1 minute, healing 10 HP (40 for the higher level version). It won't work for Constructs, most Undead, and an Eidolon.
What we don't agree on is the letter of the rule pinpointed to a specific, when it has been pointed out to me and others that there are circumstances that negate the ability from working that are beyond the short write-up of the spell. (see posts above)
I only care about how best to repair/heal my Magus' Ioun Wyrd familiar... but there are even more confusing complications with that (Are Ioun Wyrd familiars constructs?)
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hey, just cast Breath of life
it does not have the same limitating clause that cure xxx wounds have (the "living creature" part)
ok it's a level 5 spell, but hey, 5d8+9 (min) is nothing to ignore :)
(also note that it's a way to agree with Cevah and others about the fast healing being OK on constructs)
you could even go to Bloodrager [Spelleater] : @ level 2 you gain fast healing 1 when bloodraging
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edit : didn't see the Wyrd. yes, it's a tiny construct
take the familiar archetype: Figment. it's only 1/4 your HP, but comes back the next day if "killed"
If Breath of Life is positive energy, it doesn't heal constructs. It's not stated explicitly to be positive energy, but many GMs are going to interpret it that way.
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heal & cleanse would also work (not regenerate), goodberry (already mentioned)
but best of all : it's your familiar !
Share Spells:
* The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself.
* A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type
(though this will not lift the built-in limitation of cure spells for "living creatures")
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If Breath of Life is positive energy, it doesn't heal constructs. It's not stated explicitly to be positive energy, but many GMs are going to interpret it that way.
it's not the positive energy that prevents the healing of constructs, it's the sentence "living creatures" in the cure spells and channel...
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Phantasmal Killer may say that it impacts "one living creature", but if you cast it on a giant beetle nothing happens... despite them definitely being living creatures.A beetle is of type Vermin, which is mindless.
No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).Reading the spell agrees with you.
Yes, that was my point... the target line gives a very general statement about Phantasmal Killer (and the other example spells) impacting a very broad category, but then other rules exclude many examples. Thus, the claim that a target line listing "creature" means that a spell will work on ALL creatures is demonstrably false.
Burning Hands at a target under water? No effect.
RAW gives the spell a chance to work.
I should have been clearer... I was referring to a caster above the water targetting someone under water. If both are under water there is a chance of success. If only the target is under water there is not.
If Breath of Life is positive energy, it doesn't heal constructs. It's not stated explicitly to be positive energy, but many GMs are going to interpret it that way.it's not the positive energy that prevents the healing of constructs, it's the sentence "living creatures" in the cure spells and channel...
Constructs aren't healed by positive energy, though.
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Constructs aren't healed by positive energy, though.If Breath of Life is positive energy, it doesn't heal constructs. It's not stated explicitly to be positive energy, but many GMs are going to interpret it that way.it's not the positive energy that prevents the healing of constructs, it's the sentence "living creatures" in the cure spells and channel...
and where do you find this rule ?
in the elemental trait, planes, the PRD says : it heals visitors (not living creatures)
in some spells / capacity, it is specifically mentioned "living creatures" like cure spells or channel energy.
if this was a common trait of positive energy, it would be mentioned somewhere, and would not be needed to be re-specified in each spell / ability description.
RAI I could agree that it could be the case.
RAW it is not
Yes, that was my point... the target line gives a very general statement about Phantasmal Killer (and the other example spells) impacting a very broad category, but then other rules exclude many examples. Thus, the claim that a target line listing "creature" means that a spell will work on ALL creatures is demonstrably false.Phantasmal Killer may say that it impacts "one living creature", but if you cast it on a giant beetle nothing happens... despite them definitely being living creatures.A beetle is of type Vermin, which is mindless.
No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).Reading the spell agrees with you.
Got a rule that makes an exception, just like the ones provided by Cevah?
Until you do, as per the RAW, Infernal Healing works on constructs. I fail to see how there's so much debate over this when it explicitly states that Fast Healing works when given to construct under their traits, and Infernal Healing specifically gives Fast Healing 1.
Making a leap of "constructs cannot benefit from healing via Devil blood injection" may be logical, but it is not RAW. PF is littered with examples of this. When you die, you don't go prone as per RAW. Still no rules on fatigue if you skip out on sleep (except for an excerpt in Carrion Crown. Can't recall which book).
In a home game, feel free to rule that Infernal Healing doesn't work on constructs. It makes sense from a flavor standpoint. In society play, everyone abides by the RAW. Feel free to use Infernal Healing wands on your little Wyrwood buddy if you ever happen to meet one.