I took crane style at level 1. I have the highest AC in the party (DEX14, WIS12, Crane with Aldori Caution (5 dodge), 1 Shield (sansetsukon), Dodge Feat is AC20; AC 24 with mage armor up from a wand).
Monk dip is for more DPR as flurry of blows is a free extra attack.
I generally don't view armor and weapon proficiencies important enough to multiclass. Class features is why I do it.
Huh? That is interesting, but I didnt think you could fight defensively in a Full Attack. Powerful combination with an Investigator for Studied Combat, Studied Strike, and extracts.
I think differently. I work on something basic and try to polish it to be powerful while still being practical. If you skip something basic(proficiencies mainly), I try to fix it.
Those combinations are really something what i would like to see. Im not looking for Yes-Men to agree with me, but ideas I havent even thought of that are better. I do actually go looking for what you suggest. Im not ignoring your ideas.
For doing something you don't need. Just take light Armour enjoy never having to worry about encumbrance and spend your feats and class abilities on something worthwhile. An Archer with Mithril chain and 22 Dex has the same AC as a guy is full plate with 12 dex. They have no encumbrance issues and no armor check penalty with literally no investment is fixing their armor problems because they don't have any and don't need to.
That's what Armor Training is for, if you can get it: Fighter (although a distressing number of archetypes trade it out), Fighter hybrid archetype of something else, or VMC Fighter.
A lot of people don't need this, but that doesn't that everybody who is ito archery doesn't need this. Some might actually be able to get good use out of having high Dexterity and Plate Mail.
get enough of X and you can do Y this is true for almost everything in the game. . There is no actual reason to put that much effort into wearing heavy plate for an archer however.Get enough ranks of Armor Training and Mithril Plate, and you can profit as a gymnast wearing plate. Hellknight Armor Training and Hellknight Plate also helps with this.
Gun Tank Gunslinger begs to differ, and even gets 4 ranks of Armor Training to back it up. (Although I just noticed this archetype has a defect -- it trades out *5* bonus feats to get 4 ranks of Armor Training, but the trade is front-loaded in the character's favor, negating any balance considerations that might have taken part in making the uneven trade -- looks like sloppy editing to me.)
Yes, some classes get no feats. (Characters using these class still get feats, but not from their classes.) Bard and Skald...Your line of argument is completely pointless because you get feats from leveling up so both bards and skald's get feats and don't need more. They have spells like bowstaff for instance which replicates the entire empty quiver feat tree for one first level spell that lasts rounds per level. Thats what you can do with a first level spell. Bards get 6 levels.
Again, depends upon how long your adventuring day is.
Also, if you need to tack on a VMC (like for instance, suppose you have to cover multiple roles in an undersized party, as has come up in several threads around here), feats get really tight, and suddenly the Fighter's bonus feats start being envy bait.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I was going to build a Jack-of-All-Trades, it would look something like this:
Human Fighter(Lore Warden)
Traits: Pragmatic Activator, Underlying Principles
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus(Linguistics)
Str 13
Dex 18 (16+2)
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 7
That gives me 7 skill ranks per level (8, if you do favored class bonus), 1 of which would always go into Linguistics and 1 always into Use Magic Device. The other 5 would get spread around Acrobatics, Perception, and Knowledges. (You could take the Additional Traits feat at a later level to pick up Seeker and Vagabond Child to get Perception and Disable Device as Class Skills. Those are generally useful skills to have.)
At second level, take Weapon Focus(Longbow), or Deadly Aim, or Rapid Shot, whatever. You also get Combat Expertise for free.
At third level, take Orator. You are now a capable face character who, because you've been taking Linguistics, can communicate with roughly half a dozen races with no penalty.
As you progress, keep putting ranks into UMD, and you can fake being a spell caster by using scrolls, wands, etc. At some odd level, you can even take Skill Focus(UMD).
As soon as you can, pick up Point Blank Master and Snap Shot, and then you're basically free. Take whatever other feats you want.
This build gives up Medium and Heavy Armors, as well as shields, but you'll be boosting your Dex anyway, so a Mithral Shirt or Elven Chain would work just fine. Later on, if you haven't invested in your armor too much, you can pick up Celestial Armor.
Keep boosting your Dex and maybe pick up a headband of Int if you want, and you'll be good to go. By 4th level, you'll be putting out decent damage from range, you'll have Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy all sitting at +12, your UMD will be +9 so you'll activate a wand half the time. Spend 1600 for a pair of Cracked Magenta Prism ioun stones, attune them to Linguistics and UMD, and you'll go up to +14 and +11.
There's a character that can handle most combats, most social situations, and has a handful of magic tricks up their sleeve. Not a bad Jack-of-all-trades, to be honest.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really think Battle Host Occultist is great. Already mentioned but probably forgotten in the "swarm" of posts. You can have Mwk. Full plate at level one for free, you get all proficiencies, versatile schools and implements (evocation for blasting, transmutation for buffing, abjuration to boost defense, etc.), high intelligence plus four ranks a level, class bonuses to UMD, etc. Plus some bonus feats, and if you still feel feat starved you can go for a one or two level fighter dip somewhere. (Magical Knack trait boosts caster level to make multi classing less painful). I agree with Keirine that the orator feat turns any INT based class into an amazing face if you want to pick that up.
Of course, if you want high quality armor and archery, you will need armor training. Or at the very least mithral medium armor. Something to keep in mind for any builds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Note: The secondary class feature was a example. Increases to initiative are useful, but so are boosts to all skills like the Bardic Knowledge and Jack-of-all-trades.
Any combat feat you can choose also allows spell feats. Fighter-only-feats, there is only one that I know that important and it for the Archery fighting style Feat: Point Blank Master. I dont know if other Fighting styles also require Fighter to get them.
-----------------------------
Hunter is quite good. It doesnt get all the feats for Fighting Styles.Inquisitor is similar. Doesnt have martial weapons and can't go far into Fighting Styles.
Charisma classes could fit in as the Skald and (battle) Oracle mentioned, but In my instance I have a Point Buy character system, so Charisma is a dump stat for Strength, dexterity, Constitution, and anything else.
A) I think you may have missed the point of Point Blank Master. It lets you pretend melee weapons don't actually exist. If you take it, there is almost no reason to ever use melee weapons again. You can shoot at melee range, you don't need to worry about another fighting style like melee.
B)Every Jack-of-Trades character will be pretty MAD with your preferences. Wanting to be good at melee+archery and have decent spellcasting to the side, 4 stats you need are right there.
C)If you are looking for both melee and ranged capabilities, here is a nice feat path. PBS+Rapid Shot @ level 1, Quickdraw at 3, Power Attack at 5. Never pick up precise shot, instead actually go into melee when firing into melee is a concern. Use a bow to combat things like difficult terrain, flight, and closing distance between you and the enemy. Works with all 3/4 BAB classes that get bows.
D)Master Summoner may "cheat" the prerequisites. Can't do archery well, but is the best ranged combatant with the ability to pump out holy eagles to fight for him. Doesn't have the best armor, just a wall of holy eagles between him and the enemy (and the best defense is not getting attacked). Doesn't have the best skills, but has an eidolon just dying to take all the skilled evolutions and skills you don't have. Has the BAB and spellcasting requested too, if it matters. Remeber, if there is one lesson from LotR its that Eagles from nowhere solve all problems.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ranger Fighting Styles for other classes would fit that, too bad Ranger isnt so great.
I have heard that now and then, but I definitely do not agree. The ranger is pretty much a jack of all trades among the martials, having a pet, free feats, good skills, an extra damage mechanic and some spellcasting. It actually fulfills all the prerequisites in the OP except 6-level casting,but has a full BAB and a D10 HD instead. Sure, the hunter is a better pet master and has better casting, and the slayer is a better rogue/assassin, but the base ranger is nothing to sneer at, and it has archetypes that can help you customize it a fair bit.
I would say that it is not quite a "jack" of all trades as it is clearly biased towards combat (and is quite good at it) and has limited casting, though this can be remedied by spellcasting. It is certainly a fairly well-rounded class, though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is not it better Jack-of-All-Trades issue in battle a couple of spells, and drink a cup of coffee, while the party destroys the enemy?
Fighting is not his task, his task diplomacy, planning, intrigue, control, intelligence, support spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
limited casting, though this can be remedied by spellcasting.
Err, what?
Those are benefits for the Ranger, not the flaws. The casting and animal companion are both penalized. Animal companion requires a feat to fix the level penalty, and the low tier casting can never be fixed. Anything less than a tier 6 caster is considered a bad long-term investment.
I think its a lost-cause trying to make a top-tier all-rounder. Among available classes those really become are either Magical-warriors (to replace Fighters), or skill-monkeys that can cast tier 6 spells(that replace rogues), depending on if you focus on the combat or skill points.
I can't build one better than any of you, and I dont think anyone is interested in helping me sharpen my own. So just have fun and post your own Jack-of-all-Trades character builds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think many people have attempted to help you...you just keep getting in your own way. I agree with the above poster, you are quick to offer objections to ideas but you seem to ignore most of the options.
As previously noted a battle oracle would be pretty nasty with full casting and many extra feats. (believe you disagreed due to it being cha based...even though it met most of your requirements)
The lore warden is a very awesome jack of all trades (I was really looking at that route) Yeah you cant cast spells but you can use wands pretty reliably.
Heck even my suggestion of the swashbuckler/investigator was shrugged due to a level dip (forget that the one level actually keeps being useful and creates a unique route)
There are of course a lot more...so what IS your idea?
I think many people have attempted to help you...you just keep getting in your own way. I agree with the above poster, you are quick to offer objections to ideas but you seem to ignore most of the options.
As previously noted a battle oracle would be pretty nasty with full casting and many extra feats. (believe you disagreed due to it being cha based...even though it met most of your requirements)
The lore warden is a very awesome jack of all trades (I was really looking at that route) Yeah you cant cast spells but you can use wands pretty reliably.
Heck even my suggestion of the swashbuckler/investigator was shrugged due to a level dip (forget that the one level actually keeps being useful and creates a unique route)
There are of course a lot more...so what IS your idea?
An Ideal character, not an idea for a quicky build. I was asking if it was possible using current classes. Look back at the original post. Its basically a perfect Jack-of-all-trades. As much as the Troll got to me, yeah, its a character with no weaknesses. Its a Bard 2.0.
Think about the Oracle weaknesses. Curse, no dump stats, specialized in Charisma, limited number of known spells. Can you Build that into a Warrior with Tier 9 spellcasting when you have no dump stats? Im sure someone would answer with dumping other stats wiping out your skill points or something.
A dwarf Cleric is easy by comparison as the only real weakness is proficiencies. The answer? One level dip into Fighter or Paladin. Druid, just dip and use Dragonhide armor.
So its a big miscommunication here. I would have just edited my original post to be clear, but thats not possible now.
|
Take the Hunter class and let your animal companion die!
So you can use the animal aspects by yourself and your SNA counts in minutes.
Take teamwork feats for battle and all in.
With exception of the feats you wanna have the Skald class!
Followed by Magus (Eldritch Knight prc?), Inquisitor and Ranger.
Maybe there are archetyps who fits better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The oracle curse is a bonus in faint disguise, not a weakness. A dash of charisma is helpful if your JoT wants to talk to people, and you only need a dash if you're using buff & utility spells rather attack spells - 13-14 at level 1. Yes, dumping charisma hard helps you do other things but I'd have thought talking essential to the JoT idea. Limited spells known is only a big deal if you build your character poorly.
What are your actual criteria here though?
So continuing the oracle idea, curses are really not a big deal and when you level up they usually make up for themselves... worse case take one that wont have too much of a effect on you...like legalistic. I'm sure the number crunchers would have a better idea but you have a bit of flexibility.. Str could be 16/17 (divine favor will pick up the slack) dex around 12..in the beginning it might hurt until you pick up heavy armor to make up for it. Then something like 13/14 con 13 int wis 10 (closest thing to a dump stat) then 14 cha...go battle and warsighted...that will give you a floating feat. Cha doesn't need to be the highest since you would be mainly doing buff spells and maybe summons that don't require saves. Limited spells but you dont have to prepare them ahead of time.. obviously in later levels you probably would be casting more. Summons are nice for a jack of all trade too
how about a spiritualist?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't seen this question asked previously, but what role do you see this character filling? Because the more roles you try to fill, the less well you'll be able to fill all those roles.
For example, the lore warden I posted up thread fills three party roles.
Primary Role: Ranged Damage
Secondary Role: Party Face
Tertiary Role: Magical Shenanigans
She can diplomance better than a Dedicated Archer, but she'll lose to one in damage. She can out damage a Dedicated Face, but they will be able to influence better than she could. She's got a wide range of magical shenanigans she can pull, but she'll never out-perform a Dedicated Caster.
Compare this to a different one of my characters, the Pounce Barbarian.
Primary Role: Melee Damage
Secondary Role: Melee Damage
Tertiary Role: Melee Damage
He's generally attacking 4 times per round, and his lowest to hit is in the low to mid teens. His static damage is somewhere around 40, and it isn't uncommon to do around 200 points of damage with a single full round attack action.
But that's all he does. He can Climb and Swim, and his Intimidate is kind of passable, but really he's there to hit things until they stop moving.
My advice is to pick 2-4 roles that you want your JoaT to do, and build up from there. Remember no character is expected, or able, to solo any adventure, module, scenario, or AP.
(If you're looking to play in a home game, you could always talk to the GM about playing a gestalt character, and just combine Fighter/Bard... It's not often, but occasionally some GMs allow that.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe it's time for a rephrase of the original question: What kind of characters would you build when the environment ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES that they be able to fill as many party roles as possible? Notably, a small party? (The thread linked there has links to other related threads .)
Oh, and by the way, Thread Necromancy welcome.
Ill use an Inquisitor build idea an example.
str 15(7), dex 14+2(5), con 14(5), int 10(0), wis 15(7), cha 7(-4)
Ok use a Composite Longbow and get Archery feats, while having Dexterity as you combat stat. buff spells, judgement, and Bane to increase attack points and damage. Get all knowledge skills trained in early on. Choose animal domain, and get Boon Companion Feat.
So, what does that get? a magical archer with plenty of skills, Judgement class buff, divine spells, and a pet. Feats are a problem, as there are also spell feats like augment summoning to learn.
So, what does that get? a magical archer with plenty of skills, Judgement class buff, divine spells, and a pet. Feats are a problem, as there are also spell feats like augment summoning to learn.
looks like a well-rounded character that can fill several roles but isn't also a fighter so... not good enough for you.
edit: what are all these feats you want that you need more than 10 for any jack of all trades build?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again, what are your criteria?
Basically I've seen the goalposts change, I wouldn't dare suggest anything without a clear idea what you might accept.
how about a spiritualist?
Come to think of it, the medium may be even better if you do not mind switching focuses overnight. Depending on what spirit you take, you can be a good warrior,passable caster or a face.
The "Goalposts" havent really changed.
15 BAB, tier 6 caster, medium-high skills, at least 2 class features, one for combat, one for support/utility/skills, Simple+martial weapon proficiencies, light+medium+shield armor proficiencies, Bonus combat feats to make a Fighting style possible, 20 point stats buy.
Hunter that swaps out bonus teamwork feats for Ranger combat style would do it.
You would be 60-75% as good a Warrior, Caster, or Skill-monkey at the same time. Pick a hybrid class and remove the flaws and you reach that perfect All-rounder. So its an ideal character
You clearly do have other criteria you're using to dismiss options though, CT. From the outside it looks arbitrary but if there's some pattern maybe others can help.
You clearly do have other criteria you're using to dismiss options though, CT. From the outside it looks arbitrary but if there's some pattern maybe others can help.
No, most classes just dont have Bonus combat feats. Hunter and Inquisitor have teamwork feats, not the same thing.
|
|
The "Goalposts" havent really changed.
15 BAB, tier 6 caster, medium-high skills, at least 2 class features, one for combat, one for support/utility/skills, Simple+martial weapon proficiencies, light+medium+shield armor proficiencies, Bonus combat feats to make a Fighting style possible, 20 point stats buy.
Hunter that swaps out bonus teamwork feats for Ranger combat style would do it.
You would be 60-75% as good a Warrior, Caster, or Skill-monkey at the same time. Pick a hybrid class and remove the flaws and you reach that perfect All-rounder. So its an ideal character
This seems less like a Jack-of-all-Trades character and more like a Solo-Player character, which Pathfinder isn't designed for.
I mean, the saying is "Jack of all trades, Master of none" for a reason. The more roles you try to fill in a party by yourself, the less well you'll be able to do them. That's why you adventure with a few other people, to cover the areas you aren't any good in.
Try one of the builds above (I think the Lore Warden is great, but I'm also extremely biased), play it through to level 5, see how it feels. You'll be able to contribute something to almost every situation you find yourself in, and you can rely on your party members for the areas you're lacking.
Thats is a communication problem.
#1 apparently you and I didnt understand the intention of this thread and I couldnt correct it later in the original post.
#2 we have different ideas about terms and ideas. I dont know what other players's definition of Jack-of-all-trades means to you. I think for you its a character than can dip into different rolls. For me its a great that has no weaknesses so is a secondary warrior, spellcaster, and skillmonkey through having the appropriate stats.
Just having 6+ skills makes you a very solid skillmonkey.
Without any way to get all the combat feats of a particular fighting style AND other feats for spellcasting and general ultility like Improved Inititative, the idea instead becomes Master-Of-None. Thats a character that tries to do everything and ends up doing everything poorly. Im trying to avoid that.
Ill use an Inquisitor build idea an example.
str 15(7), dex 14+2(5), con 14(5), int 10(0), wis 15(7), cha 7(-4)
Ok use a Composite Longbow and get Archery feats, while having Dexterity as you combat stat. buff spells, judgement, and Bane to increase attack points and damage. Get all knowledge skills trained in early on. Choose animal domain, and get Boon Companion Feat.
So, what does that get? a magical archer with plenty of skills, Judgement class buff, divine spells, and a pet. Feats are a problem, as there are also spell feats like augment summoning to learn.
Wait... Why Augment Summoning? Do you want to play a summon-focused inquisitor?
I'm still confused at what criterion Battle Scion Skalds are missing.
Go back to page 1 to see the result of that idea. I sincerely liked it as first.
Then the flaws with the Skald were pointed out to me instead of the other way around.
Inspiring Rage is great for melee parties, especially giving your team Rage Powers like Greater Beast or Dragon Totems. The problem is that its quite specialized for melee groups. For Archers, Casters, or anyone else that doesnt clobber things they have to refuse the benefit so its doesnt prevent them from working, meaning its a weaker Barbarian Rage unless you have melee pals.
Technically the Skald with or without the battle Scion Archetype, or really any archetype reaches the minimums.
1 it has simple, martial weapon proficiencies, and light, heavy, and shield armor proficiencies
2 15 BAB
3 tier 6 spells
4 4+ skill points
5 It has a combat class feature in Inspiring Rage
6 class feature for skills
Ok I really think you just want something powerful and not a jack of all trades (in so far as you want ALL the perks and no/little downside) I actually have a character pretty close to your example (level 8 PFS)
Inquisitor of Erastil (Sanctified Slayer, Feather domain) Stats are meh at 14 str, 20 dex, 10 con, 12 int, 16 wis and 8 cha.. HP 50 and 22 AC
+8 init, 9 fort/10 ref 12 will (always have heroism up along with heightened awareness) Kowledge checks are at 13 ...16 for monster checks. 20 perception/18 sense motive/ 11 spellcraft stealth and 16 survival (more but highlights due to time) With a bow his arrows are usually at +18 (x2 manyshot)/+18/+13 and each arrow is hitting at 1D8+13...then the Cat is doing about +13/+13/+13/+13/+13 usually about roughly 1d6+13... Is that a jack of all trades? Feats are coordinated shot, improved spellsharing, boon companion, deadly aim, manyshot, point blank, precise and rapid shot. Traits deadeye bowman and fate's favored
Different ideas of the same term again.
Jack-of-all-trades can do anything well. Master-of-none can do alot, but not well. Making the former may be impossible, the later is easy.
I just thought of a Bard using light armor, two-weapon fighting, and a critical build, and reequires about a half dozen feats just for combat. Dervish Dancer Archetype fits that better. That just specialized the Bard for combat. Archery also requires many feats. Two-handed fighting requires strength over dexterity and the Bard cant dump Dexterity as it doesnt have heavy armor. Mage Armor is unavailable to Bards as an alternative to heavy armor.
So Is is possible to make an all-round character without screwing it up through specialization? I dont think so. Either you have too many combat feats or not enough, making you a support character. In that case a Fighter or Sorceror would be a better option as they have stronger rewards for specializing.
You would need fewer stat splits and more combat feats to make a Jack-of-all-trades. Every class is just a specialist as there isnt room for splitting stats and feats.
Ever play Baldur's Gate? Trying to make combat Rogues/Bards was impossible. You used Kits(like archetypes) to let them have better combat scores, but that didnt fix that they had few equipment options, were starved for proficiencies(like combat feats), and you would trade off key parts of the character, like a songless Bard.
PS Id like to see a whole party of bards sometime just to see how they do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wait... Why Augment Summoning? Do you want to play a summon-focused inquisitor?Ill use an Inquisitor build idea an example.
str 15(7), dex 14+2(5), con 14(5), int 10(0), wis 15(7), cha 7(-4)
Ok use a Composite Longbow and get Archery feats, while having Dexterity as you combat stat. buff spells, judgement, and Bane to increase attack points and damage. Get all knowledge skills trained in early on. Choose animal domain, and get Boon Companion Feat.
So, what does that get? a magical archer with plenty of skills, Judgement class buff, divine spells, and a pet. Feats are a problem, as there are also spell feats like augment summoning to learn.