|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate the spontaneous cast of "Summon Nature's Alley". It's just morally wrong to force animals that having nothing to do with you and your situation to fight and potentially die for you. Sure it works mechanically, but if a nature focused druid ever used this spell in my campaign without really good reason, I would slam her like a paladin that throws children at an charging dragon.
My question is:
Should I replace "Summon Nature's Alley" with another spontaneous cast spell?
Or just make "Wild Shape" available at lower level (6th lvl is way too long to wait in my opinion for such a core class ability)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Whoa there, ease up on the poor Druid. That's not how summoning works. The rules don't really specify where animals being summoned come from exactly, but they are actually safer while being summoned than any other time in their life (assuming they have one and aren't pulled from some Platonic ideal catalog).
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
They're about as immortal as the Terrasque for those few rounds of summoning.
Moving on, though, if you're going to make Druid fall for using a class feature as intended, definitely trade it out. Druids already get Wild Shape at 4th level, so maybe you're thinking of an archetype. If the player does take one of those archetypes, moving it back to 4th isn't a bad idea. In most cases, though, I'd recommend allowing spontaneously casting from the Fey Spell Lore feat's list. While the spell level is a little delayed, the lower level spells stay more useful than the summons do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If one were to follow this logic, then Druids and Hunters should be mortal enemies. After all, Hunters not only dedicate their career to ordering around a displaced animal, but they steal other powers of nature that they clearly have no respect for.
If you have this much hate for druids, have you considered just banning them from your games?
Yeah that's not how Summoning spells work. The create a copy of a creature, or at the very least it isn't the "real" creature because it can't die and doesn't take any actual injuries.
Planar Binding and Planar Ally spells are calling spells which actually bring the real creature, but summoning spells are not.
If anything, maybe feel bad about the animal companions which are sent into battle. Of course, the Druid is right there along with them and generally speaking the druid does try to take of his animal companion, even though they often have missions which means risking danger for both of them.
Frankly, any ruling you make which would strip away a classes powers for using them as intended is simply a bad ruling. I don't say this to be rude, but if you really stick to such a ruling you probably shouldn't bother being a GM because you're punishing people for using things as the game intended.
I see spontaneous summoning as a mutual respect deal. The druid would, and does, risk his life and die for nature and the creatures he summons are willing to do the same for him. The difference is that the creatures can't die when summoned.
However, a suitable replacement would be to give them spont. casting for a domain of their choice. Or give them summon monster (but only for animals, and with counterpoised subtype instead of an alignment) and say that the creatures dwell in a plane dedicated to protecting the natural order of things. Or say the SNA creatures dwell in a plane dedicated to protecting the natural order of things.
I suspect this is troll bait, yet for everyone else's sake -
Point one) As most posters above me are quick to point out - summoning works much differently than what the original poster must be thinking on how it works.
Point two) It seems very unfair to compare LG paladins to "any alignment with neutral in it" druids on some morality basis. I mean, Neutral evil druids do exist. They are evil, they just prefer to stay in wild environments in the same way that an alleyway gang thug prefers to stay in cities. It is unfair to compare that to a LG character throwing children at monsters, since a NE character is morally a monster and might just throw a random squirrel at a monster for the fun of it. They just wouldn't destroy their own habitat territory is all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It should be player choice. Are they trying to act like Fluttershy or Darwin? I've been toying with the idea of giving Druids domain spells, based on elements, seasons, or kingdoms. Thus they could give up animal summoning and instead get a plant or mineral set of bonus spells. An extra entangle would rock for many druids.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In my own games, I do soft-ban Gunslinger, Arcanist, and the standard Magus build because I'm biased against them, and would rather encourage players to use something I won't be annoyed with. I'm far from perfect. I'm sorry, I was probably too harsh in my post. If the summoning will be an issue for you, I'd first consider if there's a way you can reconcile the spell with your views on Druids (it's not summoning real animals, the animals are rewarded, a flippantly summoned animal here or there is just one of the perks of being a Druid, etc.), and then if that doesn't work, talk to your player about what they'd like instead. There are a few archetypes that trade it out if you need ideas!
Oh- maybe the summons call up the spirits of dead animals (in a non-abominable fashion), giving them one last taste of what they once had, in which even the pain of battle (or, if we're honest, sometimes a sprung trap) is a welcome reminder of life.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What if you allowed characters who took a domain to spontaneously cast those spells? This could also encourage people not to take an animal companion if you have a problem with them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like to think that the Druid is giving some Nature Spirits the chance to temporarily incarnate. Just think, they get real, direct, intense sensations, with no threat of real harm. This is not torture, this is Playtime.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, druids don't have to love animals. Plenty of druids are hunters! They might see animals as warriors for nature, not what's important about nature itself—after all, death is a part of life. Animals have to die—sometimes very painfully or horribly—for plants and fungi to survive.
These threads get really tiresome. The druid is not always an Oregonian vegan. Some druids are jerks. And some are non-vegan jerks. ;)
Not worried what the Druid thinks here, whether they are jerks is irrelevant. What the summoned creatures think is the relevant point. We know the critters aren't ..real.., or else summon Nature's Ally would be the only create food spell you would ever need. Thus, they have no existence outside of the Summons, and feelings are a meaningless concept. Alternately, they DO have a continued existence beyond the Summons, and this means it IS an issue. If it is sch a terrible experience, why by this point are not the poor little critters not just attacking the summoning Druid?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What the summoned animal thinks is arguably just as irrelevant. Just as a cat can torment a mouse, and fungi can enslave an ant, some druids would have no compunctions sending beasts in to fight and die for their cause.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ever seen a hurricane? Nature can be cruel.
KC,
What the summoned creature thinks, assuming it thinks, is vitally important. If the summoned creature is unwilling, then it is being dominated or otherwise subborned, and if this is happening, then why isn't the Druid just doing that to some of the bad guys and saving the transport costs for bringing in the minions.
But, frankly, if the way you are describing is funner to you, that is the way you should play it. I personally like my take, no big surprise there.
Druids don't have dominate person, that's why. ;)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ever seen a hurricane? Nature can be cruel.Hurricanes are neither cruel nor benevolent. They simply are. Any moral virtue we assign to them is entirely outside the bounds of their own existence. Such is nature.
Nature does not care whether or not any given animal dies, any given tree falls, or any given lake is drained or river flooded.
Sorry for personifying nature in a discussion about a magical elf game.
Oh, you're right, it doesn't care. That's not cruel, it's callous. :P
I agree with OP's over-all sentiment re: SNA, most particularly as spontaneous casting class ability,
but I'm not inclined to "punish" any player for using it, that's just passive-aggressive,
if anything, just fixing the class so it's not problematic is the approach I take...
Seems silly to be punishing players for using class feature clearly as it was meant to be used.
(even if you remove spontaneous SNA, if the spell exists, it's still clearly meant to be used as described...)
To be clear, i'm OK with removing the spell too, just because it detracts from theme to be all "pokemon master"
instead of you know, communing with nature and dealing with the real animals in nature around you.
I mean, charm/community focused clerics don't get spells that summon obedient humanoids, why should druids have SNA?
(honestly, I'm the same about even arcane Summon Monster at least as far the planar animals go)
(IMHO summoning should be about DEALING with planar sentients, otherwise it's not interesting to me)
And yeah, giving alternate spontaneous list seems clearly the way to go, not messing with Wildshape.
QuidEst gave a link to a cool Feat, Fey Spell Lore, but IMHO I would leave that to the Feat,
which is a good Feat on it's own, but most importantly the Feat is trying to distinguish you from Druids in general,
by going more Fey-trickster-y, so giving every Druid that doesn't seem good idea unless you want all Druids to be Fey-trickster-y.
(I personally LOVE a more Fey-trickster-y Druid, and wish Paizo's options for that were better,
but that isn't really the over-all flavor of the class in most games)
Spontaneous Domain Casting is a good one, but requires the Domain option...
I don't know, I would just go thru the base Druid list and pick some staples of it, e.g. Entangle, Call Lightning.
I guess you could allow the player the option of having base spontaneous list or domain list. (if taking Domain)
If you want to remove SNA spell completely (distinct from spontaneous issue), should probably add in some replacement spells...
Plenty of good Witch/Shaman spells to grab from IMHO.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The best advice I could give would just be to either swap the spell or reflavor it. Maybe the animals are literally created out of nearby elements (topiary tigers, sand wolves), and are effectively golems. Keep it simple.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's just morally wrong to force animals that having nothing to do with you and your situation to fight and potentially die for you.
What does morality have to do with nature?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Druids don't have dominate person, that's why. ;)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here is a great example of a group of Druids who are very far from hippy dippy vegan pacifists.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So since when do animals = nature?
More things make up nature than the tiny parasites that inhabit the planet's surface.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alternative viewpoint: Summon nature's ally and the animal companion are powers granted by nature to its ally, the druid, to be used to protect the life of that druid and not be eschewed because of some human moral consideration.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a picture in my mind of 2 owlbears that look sort of like Beavis and Butthead, talking about everything they killed, waiting to be summoned again.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not equal but animals are definitely a part of nature, more at balance then humans (or in this case elves, dwarves, etc.) We (they) are more the parasites then the animals.
Except we're all technically animals. We're just better at being animals than most of them. Even mice and ants and locusts have huge population drops when they get dense—we've learned how to be long-term parasites! We're basically an invasive species. Are starlings "at balance" with nature? Are zebra mussels "at balance" with nature? Sure, most invasive species these days had human help, but plenty just found their way over thanks to geographic flukes like ice sheets and strong winds.
Animals aren't at balance with nature. Ecosystems just keep them in check most of the time. We're all jerks—humans are arguably the best of the lot, in fact, because at least we consciously try to hold back sometimes. If the locusts had the ability to consume the planet, they totally would. And let's be real here, the only reason dolphins haven't f#@#ed us all over is a lack of opposable thumbs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We evolved that way because of nature. If we hadn't adjusted and thrived in our environment, we wouldn't be here today to talk about this. We'd be extinct or still in caves. We are nature's magum opus.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"MORE at balance then human..." animals take from the earth to satisfy needs we do it tommarow satisfy our wants and harm the world in doing it. We may all be animals but we have lost touch with the balance of nature more so then animals living off instinct instead of greed.
Diseases, invasive species (including both plants and animals), and non-human influenced population die-off make that more tenuous than it seems.
Humans' actions over-all certainly outweigh animals in the sheer number of "bad effects" outcomes we create on the environment and ourselves. Instinct means absolutely nothing, though, about "balance" - if you believe in a divine creation, humans are the way they are on purpose and that's what's right; and if you believe in natural evolution, humans are the way we are by virtue of being the "most successful track record" at what we've been (self-)designed to do.
That means we're either the direct work of God, or the direct result of entirely natural processes - nothing unnatural about either of those.
What's more, we're not the only creatures that extensively alter their native environment*, nor tame animals, or wildly steal local resources to the detriment of other species.
*
Those three key elements are actually the devices by which all species on the planet - all living things, be it plant or animal, or human - have arrived at the place they are right now.
"More" at balance, then, is merely a matter of degrees. The problem is, the "nature" we currently have has been irrevocably altered by both ourselves and others - it's not really possible for us to ever go "back" to "harmony" with "pure" nature - because that doesn't really exist. Nature is a messy, shifty, shifting, and slippery beast that over-all selects those who actively alter their environment and other creatures. We've made "nature" be something entirely different than it used to be, and it's never going to go back to that... and we've done this both in ways that are healthy and ways that are not. Further, this extends back to our earliest of histories - the majority of foods we eat are not the foods our ancestors ate; we taught the food how to grow better and tastier and healthier for ourselves. Chickens are entirely different creatures than they started; primal dogs basically don't exist anymore, having diverged by human interference to dogs (all of them) and wolves; camels, llamas, horses, and so on have been redefined by us.
A human isn't the most powerful or impressive creature on the planet by any means. Humans as a whole are insanely more powerful and impressive - they're basically everything "nature" at large wants to create (at least, insomuch as a non-sentient, non-entity can "want" anything - i.e. it's what nature selects-for).
Obviously, none of that is to say we're making the "right" decisions. Far from it. Instead, it's simply a mention that humans aren't different from other animals. The difference is only that humans have the ability to self-create opportunities for growth and negate limiters for the same. Other creatures have the same benefit, but usually to a more limited degree - but it's the ability that everything tries to have and use as much as it can by default.
EDIT:
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"MORE at balance then human..." animals take from the earth to satisfy needs we do it to satisfy our wants and harm the world in doing it. We may all be animals but we have lost touch with the balance of nature more so then animals living off instinct instead of greed.
Animals satisfy wants, too. Goats will kill themselves eating oats. Cats torture mice because it's fun. Dolphins murder infants so they can get back to mating. Chickens bully each other murderously just because they can. Dogs break s&!~ while we're gone because they're stressed and want our company.
And sure, you can talk about "instinct", but all wants are really "instinctual" if you look closely enough. Name a human want that isn't instinctual. Money? Money is power, and power keeps us safe. Money is shelter, water, food. Food? Even when eaten excessively, eating food is matching biological imperatives. It's a way of handling stress; it's a way of ensuring that we'll never go hungry.
Everybody wants things. We're just better at getting things than most species. And therein lies the problem.
I hate the spontaneous cast of "Summon Nature's Alley". It's just morally wrong to force animals that having nothing to do with you and your situation to fight and potentially die for you. Sure it works mechanically, but if a nature focused druid ever used this spell in my campaign without really good reason, I would slam her like a paladin that throws children at an charging dragon.
My question is:
Should I replace "Summon Nature's Alley" with another spontaneous cast spell?
Or just make "Wild Shape" available at lower level (6th lvl is way too long to wait in my opinion for such a core class ability)
I recommend you read the Summon Nature's Ally/Summon Monster spells again. They don't work the way you think they do. When you cast them, you're not summoning an animal or monster, you're summoning an outsider spirit that takes the shape of that animal/monster. Also, that outsider spirit can't die, if it runs out of hp, it simply goes back where it came from. It's all there in the spell description in the Core Rulebook.
No moral quandary if you happen to be an animal lover.
I would slam her like a paladin that throws children at an charging dragon.
This made me think less "take away her powers" and more "basketball". Does that make me a bad person?
Yes.
Also, as others have said, immorality and druids really aren't mutually exclusive.
|
This is why when I sit at the table I just shut off all my moral hang-ups. Instead of pressing my views into the game, I just have a good long chuckle about all the pretentious lives we got to peer into and vicariously live in for 4-5 hours.
When I play the game, it's Golarion's rules, a world where a four year old child can be forcibly witheld from heaven because a level 5 cleric with a 25 gold lump of onyx decided they wanted an animate, smooth skull to pet like a kitten, and when said cleric is killed, they get a jumpstart to becoming a lieutenant in Hell's armies.
That sweet grandmother that adopted eight children, including a tiefling that went on to become a doctor, so inspired he was by her act of kindness? Well, she's gone now, a daemon ate her soul, all possibility for her existence to have any direct impact on the future has been wiped out of the face of existence, and off the bottom of a daemon's privy.
Golarion is a cruel world of arbitrary existential torture, and I accept it as being as dark and horrid as Warhammer 40K. I accept that there are going to be characters that are blissfully, horribly ignorant to this fact, and sometimes play them myself.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance he'd eat you and everyone you care about."
And if it has the fiendish template, it may eat your soul as well.
Oops I was wrong, turns out Summon Monster summons a spirit to fight for you. Summon Nature's Ally summons an actual animal. Very sticky moral situation after all.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oops I was wrong, turns out Summon Monster summons a spirit to fight for you. Summon Nature's Ally summons an actual animal. Very sticky moral situation after all.
Um, no, summon nature's ally summons a spirit/magic copy/whatever to fight for you, same as summon monster.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oops I was wrong, turns out Summon Monster summons a spirit to fight for you. Summon Nature's Ally summons an actual animal. Very sticky moral situation after all.Um, no, summon nature's ally summons a spirit/magic copy/whatever to fight for you, same as summon monster.
Where does it say that though?
We evolved that way because of nature. If we hadn't adjusted and thrived in our environment, we wouldn't be here today to talk about this. We'd be extinct or still in caves. We are nature's magum opus.
Nature is like one of those self destructive performance artists. But yes, humans are 100% all natural. And by extension so is all our artifice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oops I was wrong, turns out Summon Monster summons a spirit to fight for you. Summon Nature's Ally summons an actual animal. Very sticky moral situation after all.
The two have practically the same text. Where are you getting a difference?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Where does it say that though?Oops I was wrong, turns out Summon Monster summons a spirit to fight for you. Summon Nature's Ally summons an actual animal. Very sticky moral situation after all.Um, no, summon nature's ally summons a spirit/magic copy/whatever to fight for you, same as summon monster.
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
Healing: Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
Teleportation: A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable.
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
SNA is a Conjuration (Summoning) spell.
Edit: Ninjaed succinctly by thejeff.
Ah okay, because you linked to the spell description I thought you were referring to something in there and I didn't see it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I didn't know Troll was on the SNA list.