The GR's initial loony assault on the Order of the Godclaw was definitely a bit hasty, but everything since then, to me, makes a certain amount of sense...
First off, my players are tossing character ideas around at the moment and they have some trouble figuring out why they should start their journey in Longacre. What would draw anyone, who isn't a local, to that town?
My group handled this by having one member of the party living there, and calling in the others when he got wind of something interesting, but otherwise... I do consider the first volume the weakest because of the sheer number of assumptions it makes as written- that you'll be in Longacre in the first place, that Cimri is someone you'll listen to, that you'll have any interest whatsoever in robbing a tannery, and that based upon one rather sordid little job that you'll be willing to continue working for the same people.
I was lucky enough that my players all wanted to run hardcore Thrunies,so I just tinkered with the setup for the tannery heist a bit.
Chillax, Tammy's got this one, don't worry about Cheliax.
The GR's initial loony assault on the Order of the Godclaw was definitely a bit hasty, but everything since then, to me, makes a certain amount of sense...
First off, my players are tossing character ideas around at the moment and they have some trouble figuring out why they should start their journey in Longacre. What would draw anyone, who isn't a local, to that town?My group handled this by having one member of the party living there, and calling in the others when he got wind of something interesting, but otherwise... I do consider the first volume the weakest because of the sheer number of assumptions it makes as written- that you'll be in Longacre in the first place, that Cimri is someone you'll listen to, that you'll have any interest whatsoever in robbing a tannery, and that based upon one rather sordid little job that you'll be willing to continue working for the same people.
I was lucky enough that my players all wanted to run hardcore Thrunies,so I just tinkered with the setup for the tannery heist a bit.
Tammy thinks no one will miss Longacre when it fuels her rebirth.
Especially if she has a doomsday device, and hugs and kisses from the queen. :-)
Sweetie, if you can put down the rabble army and keep Stabbyface out of my underwear drawer you can wipe whatever shit town you want off the map.
Stabbyface can'ts help he lookses good in thems.
I've done weirder alias tangents. :-)
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Ahem.
Is this better, it's the fourth, I'm doing the best i can!
Gorbacz: so your main problem with GR is that the main deity is not a typical revolution god? Iomedae is from Cheliax, and probably doesn't like the fact that her home worships devils now, it makes a lot of sense that she's the main god.
As for whether the initial attack on the god law was thought through, if I were leading a group of Iomedean knights against Cheliax getting the sword that was wielded by Iomedae would be the first thing I did too, and I'm pretty sure most people who have any sort of planning and strategy capabilities would agree with me on that.
Sweetie, if you can put down the rabble army and keep Stabbyface out of my underwear drawer you can wipe whatever s$~# town you want off the map.
Can I make my own town? Name it Mannyburg. It's an itty bitty place.
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Gorbacz: so your main problem with GR is that the main deity is not a typical revolution god? Iomedae is from Cheliax, and probably doesn't like the fact that her home worships devils now, it makes a lot of sense that she's the main god.
As for whether the initial attack on the god law was thought through, if I were leading a group of Iomedean knights against Cheliax getting the sword that was wielded by Iomedae would be the first thing I did too, and I'm pretty sure most people who have any sort of planning and strategy capabilities would agree with me on that.
My problem is that what GR is hopeless, doomed to fail and will only result in massive backlash against civilians, whose blood will be on Iomedae's hands. You don't rebel against the regime unless you're 100% sure that the vast majority of populace is on your side AND will take up arms and join you in a jiffy - and the problem is, most Chelaxians don't really mind Thrune that much. Sure, dissidents get executed in gruesome ways, but the average Joe can get by no probs as long as her or she dby oes lip service of worshipping Asmodeus. So given a choice of risking their life by joining some revolutionary movement that even doesn't have any foreign support AND sitting quietly, most will chose the latter.
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The rebellion in Kintargo isn't much better. They still have to crawl and beg to be left alone and can only get away with it due to the contract.
Not just dissidents, anyone saying 'You know, perhaps a Republic might work better' and doing everything legally is still going on the spikes because Thrune will send Gregor Clegane after you.
The GR's initial loony assault on the Order of the Godclaw was definitely a bit hasty, but everything since then, to me, makes a certain amount of sense...
First off, my players are tossing character ideas around at the moment and they have some trouble figuring out why they should start their journey in Longacre. What would draw anyone, who isn't a local, to that town?My group handled this by having one member of the party living there, and calling in the others when he got wind of something interesting, but otherwise... I do consider the first volume the weakest because of the sheer number of assumptions it makes as written- that you'll be in Longacre in the first place, that Cimri is someone you'll listen to, that you'll have any interest whatsoever in robbing a tannery, and that based upon one rather sordid little job that you'll be willing to continue working for the same people.
I was lucky enough that my players all wanted to run hardcore Thrunies,so I just tinkered with the setup for the tannery heist a bit.
I'll probably rework that story around the tannery, but before I'll plan anything major, I'll have to wait for all backgroundstories of the PCs and go on from there.
Cimri is another problem though. Would a lawful person commit crimes on the back of the words of a shady person with 0 credentials? I don't think so.
I can only agree with you that first book looks the weakest, and to me by a considerable margin.
My problem is that what GR is hopeless, doomed to fail...
Is it, though? I mean, in the sense of being the antagonists of an Adventure Path, sure. But I would hope that, if the PCs didn't exist, the Glorious Reclamation would win. What's the point of playing the AP, otherwise?
^The PCs playing could still have a point even if the Glorious Reclamation is doomed, if the lack of PC involvement leads to something even worse taking over, which the Glorious Reclamation unwittingly enables. Thus, PC injvolvement could make a difference who loses other than the Glorious Reclamation. I don't have the last book (time machine not in service, among other things), but it seems a reasonable guess.
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I can only agree with you that first book looks the weakest, and to me by a considerable margin.
My basic fix. Not as useful for people less interested in crushing rebellion for the glory of Thrune, but, well, you know... it's a start.
I also can't help thinking that making HV follow Hell's Rebels isn't doing it any favors... HR is one of the best APs I've ever clapped eyes on, period, point-blank. It was always going to be a tough act to follow.
I can only agree with you that first book looks the weakest, and to me by a considerable margin.My basic fix. Not as useful for people less interested in crushing rebellion for the glory of Thrune, but, well, you know... it's a start.
I also can't help thinking that making HV follow Hell's Rebels isn't doing it any favors... HR is one of the best APs I've ever clapped eyes on, period, point-blank. It was always going to be a tough act to follow.
I'll wait until I have all of my players' ideas and figure it out from there, because one wants to be a Nidalese necromancer, so I can't just apply your idea.
On your point on HR vs. HV, I can only agree as a GM, but I think my players might enjoy HV more, because they might be much more invested in their evil PCs, because they are really looking forward to it. Also I think the big choices they are allowed to make for HV will be more memorable to them, than protecting the city.
Based on the description of the 6th adventure and how that doesn't appear been hinted at at all, I don't think the "Something worse takes over" idea is likely.
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The way the Glorious Reclamation is portrayed is a lot of the reason that I'm not enjoying Hell's Vengeance. I feel there's a lot of "Good is dumb, so it makes sense to be evil," which I find insulting to good people and less satisfying to people who really want to play evil.
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There are plenty of dumb good people in APs.
There are also plenty of dumb evil entities in APs.
How many times do enemies wait in their room or area because of pride or some other reason preventing them from investigating an ongoing fight?
Or fear of the mini-Boss in an area which means once the PCs reach a specific region, there isn't a chance of encountering reinforcements because you don't upset the boss?
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Was that our queue? Hold on! Franky forgot to cast his buff spells like he was supposed to.
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There are plenty of dumb good people in APs.
There are also plenty of dumb evil entities in APs.
How many times do enemies wait in their room or area because of pride or some other reason preventing them from investigating an ongoing fight?
Or fear of the mini-Boss in an area which means once the PCs reach a specific region, there isn't a chance of encountering reinforcements because you don't upset the boss?
0) Not as the main antagonists though.
1) None so far in any of the APs I've played in.
2) ?
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There are plenty of dumb good people in APs.
There are also plenty of dumb evil entities in APs.
How many times do enemies wait in their room or area because of pride or some other reason preventing them from investigating an ongoing fight?
Or fear of the mini-Boss in an area which means once the PCs reach a specific region, there isn't a chance of encountering reinforcements because you don't upset the boss?
0) Not as the main antagonists though.
1) None so far in any of the APs I've played in.
2) ?
Actually? Yes. As man antagonists! Let us take Queen Elvanna in Reign of Winter. The Tardis - er, I mean Dancing Hut is stolen by thieves from the center of Irrisen and the final encounter with Elvanna is only an Outsider and the Queen instead of several layers of defenses. The teams she sends out to seek out her Mother's power are inadequate for the job and end up serving to provide the PCs with extra treasure.
Karzoug, the Runelord of Greed and an individual with a lot of monetary resources and with powerful minions, doesn't go and layer Symbol after Symbol in the region around the Portal to his prison. He can afford to do it, and all he really needs to do is slow those "witless worms" if they actually get that far so that he can escape his prison.
Wrath of the Righteous, you have TWO primary antagonists who do stupid things - ol' Horn Head has LOST a life and still engages Mythic heroes in all likelihood singlehandedly rather than send waves of demons to hurt the heroes and then attacking from the shadows and using hit-and-run tactics... while Mr. Swarmlord isn't on hand to provide immediate support while his most powerful minions are still alive and then faces them after they have already destroyed everything he's worked for and he knows they can kill him because they likely already killed Hornhead!
Time after time after time, the Big Bad holds an Idiot Ball at some point.
And time after time after time, the heroes are needed because the forces of Good are dumb enough not to realize the threat they face. You have a ranger off dallying with a nymph and letting her and himself get captured by ogres despite knowing those ogres are an ongoing threat and maybe going off by himself isn't a bright idea?
Or how about an entire nation of elves which discounts the threat from below or the fact they hide their greatest shame and will go after heroes who try to show the world that there is something down below that is a threat to the world?
And how about a nation opening up a necropolis for looters to help refill coffers, and in doing so allows an artifact to be uncovered which helps awaken an ancient ruler who would rain death and destruction upon that land?
There are a lot of idiot balls held by the Forces of Good. A whole lot. And also plenty of idiot balls held by the Forces of Evil.
Clearly they all need to reticulate the ball down the field with a forward passing attack.
Running it just isn't going to put points on the board.
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TLDR:
Its a cool premise that I don't think meets its potential.
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I'm DM'ing a group that just finished the first book, though I've read through the 5th.
Personally, I think the main idea of the AP is sound and interesting. Enough that I was very excited to DM it when it was announced. However, I think it overall falls short of what it should or could be.
Some of that is personal preference. I would of preferred a lot more intrigue and deeper thought into the power struggles that would be taking place because of the Glorious Reclamation's successes (IE- The back of book 5 should not be a sidebar. An entire book or two could have been made with that stuff and the story would of been better for it.) However, a bulk of the material degenerates into fetch quests that stray quite far from the central conflict.
Areas that I think should have gotten way more time are at best glossed over or not covered at all. You never really connect with the Glorious Reclamation as a real enemy. There is no exploration of key antagonists like Archbaron Fex, Alexeara Cansellarion, even Abrogail. Their motivations and plans are left unexplored. And you're left with thinly veiled reasons to become Agents of Thrune (something that deserves a lot more focus and depth),
The entirety of book 5 (and much of books 3) is devoted to something that should take maybe 1/4 of the book. Generally, the PC's are doing uninteresting things in the scope of what is happening in the country. What about assassinating key political figures that could aid the GR? Leading armies to crush real cities like Senara and not just small towns? Subverting the nobility to further secure Abrogail's rule once the GR is eliminated?
(Tangent, how did the GR take both Castle Dinyar and Senara and not take Misarias?)
Why not more deeply explore the actual rebellion instead of outlandish rituals that solely serve to lead to mechanically interesting but contrived fights.
(Exception: The inferno gate ritual and premise was a totally cool idea. It was just the execution of the rest of that book and the fetch quests that were horrible)
Also, the AP continually reinforces the PC's as brute force thugs instead of exploring the idea of them as fully fledged big bads in their own right. They should be given opportunities to feel like THEY are the boss fight. The Glorious reclamation should need to come deal with them proactively. Its unbecoming of villains to be constantly chasing around their enemies like errand boys. Essentially, the PC's are kind of uncool, and receive little glory beyond being patted on the head by Abby.
There is a lot of interesting organizations that are intrinsically tied to Cheliax that would fit fantastically into the AP as either antagonists or allies. Whats going on with the Hell Knight Orders? Their completely glossed over and added in only a token fashion. Specifically, the order of the Gate if we're talking about book 3. What are the Queens Hands doing?: (Anya Jeggare and her Abby bound gang of super loyalists) Aren't they kind of important to go unmentioned through an entire rebellion where you intimately get to know the QUEEN.
Abby was statted up. Why not explore using the chaos of this conflict to depose her? Perhaps join with Fex and together back another Thrune to the throne. One who is interested in giving out some of those unused Duke titles perhaps. Why sell your soul to Abrogail for ... what? Gold? Pc's are hella rich without her. Can we get an information section that actually lists some counties or further expands our understanding of the nobility? Its kind of useful if your party has interest in upward social mobility.
idk. I'm ranting now. Suffice to say I'm making a lot of tweaks in our home game.
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There are plenty of dumb good people in APs.
There are also plenty of dumb evil entities in APs.
How many times do enemies wait in their room or area because of pride or some other reason preventing them from investigating an ongoing fight?
Or fear of the mini-Boss in an area which means once the PCs reach a specific region, there isn't a chance of encountering reinforcements because you don't upset the boss?
0) Not as the main antagonists though.
1) None so far in any of the APs I've played in.
2) ?
Actually? Yes. As man antagonists! Let us take Queen Elvanna in Reign of Winter. The Tardis - er, I mean Dancing Hut is stolen by thieves from the center of Irrisen and the final encounter with Elvanna is only an Outsider and the Queen instead of several layers of defenses. The teams she sends out to seek out her Mother's power are inadequate for the job and end up serving to provide the PCs with extra treasure.
Karzoug, the Runelord of Greed and an individual with a lot of monetary resources and with powerful minions, doesn't go and layer Symbol after Symbol in the region around the Portal to his prison. He can afford to do it, and all he really needs to do is slow those "witless worms" if they actually get that far so that he can escape his prison.
Wrath of the Righteous, you have TWO primary antagonists who do stupid things - ol' Horn Head has LOST a life and still engages Mythic heroes in all likelihood singlehandedly rather than send waves of demons to hurt the heroes and then attacking from the shadows and using hit-and-run tactics... while Mr. Swarmlord isn't on hand to provide immediate support while his most powerful minions are still alive and then faces them after they have already destroyed everything he's worked for and he knows they can kill him because they likely already killed Hornhead!
Time after time after time, the Big Bad holds an Idiot Ball at some point.
And time after time after time, the heroes are...
I'll add Barzillai Thrune to that list. His arrogance leads to poor judgement and decision making, so he isn't lacking wits, but I would consider him rather stupid.
The way the Glorious Reclamation is portrayed is a lot of the reason that I'm not enjoying Hell's Vengeance. I feel there's a lot of "Good is dumb, so it makes sense to be evil," which I find insulting to good people and less satisfying to people who really want to play evil.
Now you've reminded me that I really need to see Spaceballs . . . .
* * * * * * * *
Oh and by the way, one of my character concepts for Hell's Vengeance is a mad cowboy politician who aspires to become a Subgenius Loci . . . .
@Combatbunny
This is where I think Way of the Wicked does things better. The PCs are bound by their contract but have a lot of leeway on how they accomplish their job. They can take down a fort, build and evil lair and invade a holy valley using various tools and allies.
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Hmm, running Hell's Vengeance as a Mel Brooks' film... heck, almost any AP.The way the Glorious Reclamation is portrayed is a lot of the reason that I'm not enjoying Hell's Vengeance. I feel there's a lot of "Good is dumb, so it makes sense to be evil," which I find insulting to good people and less satisfying to people who really want to play evil.Now you've reminded me that I really need to see Spaceballs . . . .
* * * * * * * *
Oh and by the way, one of my character concepts for Hell's Vengeance is a mad cowboy politician who aspires to become a Subgenius Loci . . . .
My players very nearly turn everything into a Mel Brooks movie anyway, so why not?
-Skeld
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Do they metagame as well?Hmm, running Hell's Vengeance as a Mel Brooks' film... heck, almost any AP.The way the Glorious Reclamation is portrayed is a lot of the reason that I'm not enjoying Hell's Vengeance. I feel there's a lot of "Good is dumb, so it makes sense to be evil," which I find insulting to good people and less satisfying to people who really want to play evil.Now you've reminded me that I really need to see Spaceballs . . . .
* * * * * * * *
Oh and by the way, one of my character concepts for Hell's Vengeance is a mad cowboy politician who aspires to become a Subgenius Loci . . . .
My players very nearly turn everything into a Mel Brooks movie anyway, so why not?
-Skeld
Nah, they're pretty good about not metagaming.
-Skeld
Is that a dating app for gamers?
Shouldn't it be called Meetagamer?
Just saying, it might be more popular if they work on the title. :-)
They could merchandise themselves for extra gold. Barbarian After Shave, brings out the beast in you.
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I still wanna play as the glorious reclamation. :(
That's what I actually plan to do if it ever should come to me running this AP. I've still no interest in running APs for evil characters so I'll just use this AP as a very detailed blueprint for what my PCs will have to fight against.
Still don't mind the experiment though and wouldn't mind another evil AP some time in the fututre either.
I still wanna play as the glorious reclamation. :(That's what I actually plan to do if it ever should come to me running this AP. I've still no interest in running APs for evil characters so I'll just use this AP as a very detailed blueprint for what my PCs will have to fight against.
Still don't mind the experiment though and wouldn't mind another evil AP some time in the fututre either.
I was interested in running a GR campaign too, so I looked over the most recent Cheliax book and the Hell's Vengeance volumes. Here's the problem: assuming the adventure starts at Citadel Dinyar, there's a few places the PCs can go: Senara, Misarias, and the Sirmium Plains come to mind. But I'm not sure what goals they would have as level 1 characters.
I suppose they can either take part in the military campaigning summarized at the beginning of each HV volume, or they can be a small, isolated cell of the Glorious Reclamation undertaking low-level missions to disrupt House Thrune's interests at the behest of their Alexaera.
The other issue is keeping the Glorious Reclamation's more powerful members (like Parnoneryx) from getting involved directly with the PC's quest, lest it becomes trivial. I suppose that the dragon and other heavy-hitters of the GR would be occupied with distant battles away from the PC's immediate interests.
^How about when the Glorioius Reclamation heavy-hitters start to get involved, they get assassinated? Then the PCs have to try to figure out the mystery, without becoming direct targets themselves . . . And the scraps of information they come across point to an elite Cheliaxian squad that is suspicioiusly similar to the iconic villains of Hell's Vengeance.
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I'm not that impressed with the Hell's Vengeance iconics to be honest, I'm not sure if any of them would be believable as competent assassins. :-)
My problem is that what GR is hopeless, doomed to fail and will only result in massive backlash against civilians, whose blood will be on Iomedae's hands. You don't rebel against the regime unless you're 100% sure that the vast majority of populace is on your side AND will take up arms and join you in a jiffy [...]Gorbacz: so your main problem with GR is that the main deity is not a typical revolution god? Iomedae is from Cheliax, and probably doesn't like the fact that her home worships devils now, it makes a lot of sense that she's the main god.
As for whether the initial attack on the god law was thought through, if I were leading a group of Iomedean knights against Cheliax getting the sword that was wielded by Iomedae would be the first thing I did too, and I'm pretty sure most people who have any sort of planning and strategy capabilities would agree with me on that.
Take this list of rebellions and cross off the ones that failed... I checked the first ten, got ten failures and zero successes, and figured I could see the trend. I also think that you could lay the same charge (hopeless, doomed to fail, will only result in massive backlash against civilians) against most of those ten, yet they are all real.
And that's just the ones that got so big that we remember them. There's hundreds more that got squashed early.
A successful rebellion is always a long shot to pull off, especially in a country's core territory (as opposed to far-flung colonies). Leading an armed rebellion against a government in its core territory is pretty much staking your life on rolling a natural 20.
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I still wanna play as the glorious reclamation. :(That's what I actually plan to do if it ever should come to me running this AP. I've still no interest in running APs for evil characters so I'll just use this AP as a very detailed blueprint for what my PCs will have to fight against.
Still don't mind the experiment though and wouldn't mind another evil AP some time in the fututre either.
I was interested in running a GR campaign too, so I looked over the most recent Cheliax book and the Hell's Vengeance volumes. Here's the problem: assuming the adventure starts at Citadel Dinyar, there's a few places the PCs can go: Senara, Misarias, and the Sirmium Plains come to mind. But I'm not sure what goals they would have as level 1 characters.
I suppose they can either take part in the military campaigning summarized at the beginning of each HV volume, or they can be a small, isolated cell of the Glorious Reclamation undertaking low-level missions to disrupt House Thrune's interests at the behest of their Alexaera.
The other issue is keeping the Glorious Reclamation's more powerful members (like Parnoneryx) from getting involved directly with the PC's quest, lest it becomes trivial. I suppose that the dragon and other heavy-hitters of the GR would be occupied with distant battles away from the PC's immediate interests.
It's really not all that different from the Wrath of the Righteous setup. There are several fronts of this big war happening off-screen, while the PCs are performing specific infiltration missions.
