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Hasted ambush from a silent image blind to surprise round charge/disarm (with multiple attackers if needed) seems like the easiest and least complicated solution, gunslingers aren't known for their astounding CMD. Completely reasonable with a scrying cleric too (and maybe a mook wizard since Silent Image checks only occur when you go poke the image). Unless the players are hyper paranoid/have true sight, you've got them dead to rights within 60'. It's been the standby of my brawler whenever someone big and mean comes up, he just takes away their toys and then goes to beat the tar out of them.
Bonus points if the gunslinger has utterly failed to plan for this with backup weapons.
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I figure you're allowing the character to free action drop one so there is a free hand to rotate one barrel, free action drop that pistol, swift action grab the other corded pistol, and repeat with that pistol.
Weapon cords are currently a move action to retrieve, so these shenanigans don't work. I assume that Ravingdork knows this and uses the rule like that, since he states he plays w/o house rules.
So, the glove of storing technically works, I guess, whether I like it or not. However, you can have only one. So, the full round assault is probably legit, though cheesy.
BUT, I'd still be very careful about the misfire chance. EVERY shot has a 15% chance of misfiring with this character (1-3). Taking 4 shots per round means that it is very likely that she'll misfire.
And, again, if the Two Weapon Fighting comes from Picaroon, she cannot use it with two firearms. Ok, just test built most of the character, and it is likely she got two weapon fighting from either the Gunslinger's bonus feat, or a fighter bonus feat, so it isn't limited.
Thus, she is +11/+11/+6/+1 with gun 1, +11 with gun 2, dealing 1d8+18 (includes magic[1], weapon training[1], DEX[6], deadly aim[8], spec [2]) {her numbers are apparently slightly off}
But, rolling 5 attacks with a 1-3 misfire chance, it seems it is about 56% likely that she will misfire on at least one of them.
I still really question the validity of getting the benefit of TWF and having a free hand at the same time.
It'd be no different than in a TWF knife-throwing build quick draws daggers with both hands and throws them at enemies. They got free hands for a good portion of the full-attack action duration.
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All of our PCs use 25 point buy. We've known for years that we prefer high powered characters. (Yet somehow, we still die all the freaking time in other campaigns.)
Well, if you pride yourself on "running adventures as written" with 5 characters at 25 point buy, when the adventures are designed for four 15-point characters, you shouldn't really be surprised when your encounters are cakewalks.
Cast a heightened, quickened Daze cantrip, 5' step toward gunslinger
Follow up with channel energy 2x via the feat that allows for move action channels.
Rinse, repeat as needed.
Dead Gunslinger.
After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it is immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.
Ok, small hiccup.
quickened persistent hold person, would work though.
The idea is to prevent him from acting.
Have all the mooks cast hold person too...all in the same round if possible. Eventually he will miss a save.
Cause blindness/deafness, shoot nothing then.Save DCs are laughably low.
Heightened blindness ?
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the purpose of that rule is to increase verisimilitude and willing suspension of disbelief. the game labels many things as free actions and tell the GM to determine how many can be realistically done in 6 seconds to save page space. can you imagine how much more room it would take to attempt to write out every combination of free actions one might accomplish in 6 seconds? the effort wouldn't be worth it and the list would surely be incomplete.
it's unrealistic that a single glove of storing (since RAW you can have only 1) would be enough to allow the gunslinger to free his hand quickly and efficiently enough to allow full two-weapon fighting full-attacks. even with weapon cords (originally a swift action retrieval, but now a move) it's a stretch.
of course it's up to you if you want to limit your own ability to challenge your players. assuming you're all having fun, you do you.
Off topic topic is off topic.
If GMs really adhered to that rule for the sake of verisimilitude, then archers, gunslingers, and similar characters could not really function as intended at high levels. This has been discussed and debated before elsewhere--and elsewhere is where it belongs.
Well, if you pride yourself on "running adventures as written" with 5 characters at 25 point buy, when the adventures are designed for four 15-point characters, you shouldn't really be surprised when your encounters are cakewalks.
To be fair, one of those characters was added half way through the game as a favor to a friend. Also, out of a half dozen or so adventure paths we've run, this is the first one remotely resembling a "cakewalk." Most ended in TPKs, or simply lost so many characters that the core story didn't make sense, causing a loss of player interest.
Well I just ran my group through this a few weeks ago.
Yeah, I forgot that the PCs likely won't be able to cast spells in this encounter while the villains will. That alone will be pretty nasty. I may just have all the clerics look the same (so they can't easily target the boss), and then maybe hit them with a symbol of slow and a symbol of pain. That should make it an extremely tough encounter, possibly even one they will have to run from. The lingering effects from the symbol of pain ought to make some of the later encounters more difficult as well.
Off topic topic is off topic.
If GMs really adhered to that rule for the sake of verisimilitude, then archers, gunslingers, and similar characters could not really function as intended at high levels. This has been discussed and debated before elsewhere--and elsewhere is where it belongs.
good thing it isn't off topic then as it relates to how you can survive the gunslinger. also, you brought it up (and being the OP doesn't make your off-topic comments less off-topic). more importantly, though, verisimilitude is the appearance of being true or real, so it's affected by your willing suspension of disbelief (as i pointed out).
anyway, sorry for derailing.
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It really is a tough situation to be in...when you don't want solutions that work, or to know where things went wrong.
You want to play by the rules with your Cleric and the AP, but give your characters free rein with abusing (maybe a strong word as it is done in fun) mechanics for "more fun"... It isn't an issue of realism vs magic/fun, it is about dealing with the Frankenstein's monster you made. Just let the players obliterate everything with little to no effort...that is what they built their characters for.
Honestly...if the Cleric can scry, why is she even staying? She should have her minions disguise her tactical retreat.
To be fair, one of those characters was added half way through the game as a favor to a friend. Also, out of a half dozen or so adventure paths we've run, this is the first one remotely resembling a "cakewalk." Most ended in TPKs, or simply lost so many characters that the core story didn't make sense, causing a loss of player interest.
OK, then, it sounded a bit like an overpowered group.
Is the cleric you are talking about Luccaria?
Honestly...if the Cleric can scry, why is she even staying? She should have her minions disguise her tactical retreat.
Is the cleric you are talking about Luccaria?
it's unrealisticIt's a fantasy game. It's supposed to be.
Was this about firearms?. TL;DR, but realistic firearms would be unfavorable. Firstly, instant kills. Big no no. Also, Civil War Era Rifles took a while. Approximately 20 second to reload. Three rounds of full round actions(because you can't run and shove the stick through) would probably mean it wouldn't be realistic. D&D is really a story, and how often do we make fun of Arnold Schwarzenegger stints? :p
I have a slightly off topic question that I keep wondering. Is this the first time you've run higher point buy or something like that? Because you keep saying that you suffered multiple TPKs before, but I'm not really seeing how that could happen if this is standard for your party. They're at least somewhat decently built, have good stats, etc. Are they just really unlucky or something? How have you managed to get multiple TPKs before anyway?
What alignment is this cleric? And do they have the Sacred Summons feat?
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Pizza Lord. This is some awesome encounter planning. I may have to use that on my next game. Imagine the look on their faces when the poison defenses are dropped. My players will hate me. My rules lawyer player will have an aneurysm while trying to figure a way that this isn't a legal sequence of events.
Was this about firearms?. TL;DR, but realistic firearms would be unfavorable. Firstly, instant kills. Big no no. Also, Civil War Era Rifles took a while. Approximately 20 second to reload. Three rounds of full round actions(because you can't run and shove the stick through) would probably mean it wouldn't be realistic. D&D is really a story, and how often do we make fun of Arnold Schwarzenegger stints? :pit's unrealisticIt's a fantasy game. It's supposed to be.
exactly. it's a story. hence the invocation of verisimilitude and willing suspension of disbelief. its about seeming realistic enough to not break immersion. also limiting free actions by GM fiat is there to help with game balance because the ability to do unlimited free actions can get out of hand and unbalancing.
I believe this got removed along with the off-topic items. Just in case - what about using a combination of Heightened Deeper Darkness and the spell Echolocation along with summoning creatures with Blindsense/Scent/etc.?
I think I have what I need from this thread. Thank you so much everyone for your advice.
I likely be using the following, and playing the encounters as intended otherwise:
- Upgrade all enemy rogues to use the unchained rogue rules.
- Use control weather and murder holes/open windows to defeat cloud spells, even while indoors (outside, ranged attacks will quickly become impossible).
- Have a few smugglers disguise themselves as prisoners to be rescued, they will backstab at the first opportune time.
- Clerics will be spamming mirror image, bestow curse, and channel negative energy.
- All clerics will use disguise self to look identical to one another, making it difficult to pinpoint their leader.
- Fickle winds, heroism, and other assorted precast buffs will be in place at the start of the shrine battle; most will be generic, not gun-specific.
- Clerics will not rely on invisibility, since they know most of the PCs can see through it. (Note to self, still need a means of seeing invisible PCs.)
- A teleport trap in the fort will prevent teleportation, placing PCs in the prison cell if they fail their saves. This may split the party up if some make their saves, and some don't.
- Place a symbol of slow and symbol of pain within the shrine.
The lingering effects of bestow curse (the -4 everything option), the symbol of pain, and the sheer amount of damage from spammed channel negative energies ought to make things very challenging for the PCs. Nearly all of these things can be removed by party members, assuming they get a breather, but that means more resources expended that won't be used in later encounters.
I think that's probably more than enough. I fear I'll kill everyone if I add more than that (and even this might be pushing the limits I think).
Invisibility purge (cleric) covers enemy being able to see invis pc's.
also, in general play i have found the 50% of no action the most effective curse choice as a single impact.
Thanks, Rathendar. I will make sure invisibility purge is on the list.
I know the 50% actions is the most effective option, that's why I'm opting NOT to use it. It will not only drag the battle out, making it no fun for my players (who may mutiny against me for it), but they will be more likely to remove it. When I hit them with the symbol of insanity a few games back, it almost doomed the entire campaign as some of them threw their arms up in outrage and stormed out.
Bestow a small penalty, and the player might just deal with it for a few encounters. Take away half their play time, however, and they will either outright quite the session or seek to remove the effect ASAP.
Thats fair as a reason. I respect the decision.
the game labels many things as free actions and tell the GM to determine how many can be realistically done in 6 seconds to save page space. can you imagine how much more room it would take to attempt to write out every combination of free actions one might accomplish in 6 seconds? the effort wouldn't be worth it and the list would surely be incomplete.
it's unrealistic that a single glove of storing (since RAW you can have only 1) would be enough to allow the gunslinger to free his hand quickly and efficiently enough to allow full two-weapon fighting full-attacks. even with weapon cords (originally a swift action retrieval, but now a move) it's a stretch.
of course it's up to you if you want to limit your own ability to challenge your players. assuming you're all having fun, you do you.
Off topic topic is off topic.
If GMs really adhered to that rule for the sake of verisimilitude, then archers, gunslingers, and similar characters could not really function as intended at high levels.
To be clear, archers don't rely on free actions. Drawing an arrow as part of a bow attack is the "not an action" action.
Thanks, Rathendar. I will make sure invisibility purge is on the list.
I know the 50% actions is the most effective option, that's why I'm opting NOT to use it. It will not only drag the battle out, making it no fun for my players (who may mutiny against me for it), but they will be more likely to remove it. When I hit them with the symbol of insanity a few games back, it almost doomed the entire campaign as some of them threw their arms up in outrage and stormed out.
Bestow a small penalty, and the player might just deal with it for a few encounters. Take away half their play time, however, and they will either outright quite the session or seek to remove the effect ASAP.
Speaking from a player perspective, much in the same way Enervation will utterly ruin your day, the -4 Bestow Curse can absolutely ruin your day in the same way. It can honestly feel extremely defeating, perhaps even more so than a 50% inaction chance, since you're still attacking, just you can't hit anymore thanks to the penalty. It's like knowing you can only hit when you roll a 17. It becomes a matter of "Do I even bother?"
Do you think a -8 penalty to pretty much everything, a slow effect, and a one way silence effect, might be too much for one battle?
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I am going to repeat a comment made before, because someone commented you should get infinite free actions because of archers, and derailed this completely valid and unrelated point.
If you are two weapon fighting your off hand is considered occupied the entire round. You can not use drop your weapon and then have your hand free for spell combat, in the same way you can not just drop your off ahnd weapon and have that hand be considered "free" for the puirposes of a pepperbox which specificly states it can be only reloaded if your hand is free. You can not two weapon fight and reload pepperboxes in the same turn, as per the RAW the OP is strict about. Thats one of the reasons this gunslinger is so OP.
I also never saw a reply as to what level the characters are now, because those sheets are according to the OP out of date, because the Gunslingers will is better than the +7 advertised in the sheet.