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The Official PDT FAQ post from not too long ago clarifies that the Increased Damage Reduction Rage Power only applies to the Barbarian's Damage Reduction class feature (and therefore means all other forms of Damage Reduction the Barbarian acquires cannot be increased), and this post here breaks down the scaling of Damage Reduction; in short, while the Invulnerable Rager might be more feasible in the early game, towards the mid and late game, the Unchained Barbarian pulls ahead, and maintains that lead forever.
Granted, a standard Barbarian may be 2 DR lower than an Invulnerable Rager by the lategame, and remains fairly relevant to the Invulnerable Rager DR while leveling, he doesn't have to give up their other class features for it, meaning other certain archetypes might be more worthwhile now than the Invulnerable Rager. In short, it appears the cookie cutter Invulnerable Rager age is gone, as the sole reason to pick Invulnerable Rager was for the increased Damage Reduction scaling, which is now no longer possible with the release of this FAQ.
The big question is, which ones (if any)? And with the UCBarbarian being stronger defensive-wise while being almost as strong melee wise, does this significantly tip the scales of balance towards the UCBarbarian's favor, perhaps so much so that a standard Barbarian is a thing of the past? And as a third bonus question, can you pick standard Barbarian archetypes with the UCBarbarian?
**EDIT** Remade the thread on a more suitable forum.
Bah, just take the IR archetype until level 8 and then retrain out of it.
Way to leave out the "regular Unchained Barbarian (UB) who takes the unchained Improved Damage Reduction power (retraining feats to take it three times once it's available)".
So yes, the Unchained barbarian who gives up everything else can have more DR than the Invulnerable Rager. The example is level 8, by then you'd have... 4 feats? So giving up at least 2 feats lets you surpass an IR who spent none. Should we give the IR Stalwart to balance it out? The UBarb can't afford it.
IR has never been the only barbarian. It's better than the vanilla barbarian (mostly because trap sense sucks), but other archetypes have their place (and some barbarians don't want to give up uncanny dodge). It's not the best, it's just better than the base. Savage Technologist is a much better archer. Drunken Rager has a specific place. And those are just the ones that clash with IR, Urban Barbarian is also popular.
UBarb still doesn't have in-class flight, dispel magic, lost its protection from SU abilities, the Eater of Magic reroll, strength surge, smasher (the good one), lots of stuff. The CBarb is still better because it has better rage powers. Some archetype not having as much DR doesn't change that in the slightest.
To the best of my knowledge, you can take any archetype for UBarb it still qualifies for except for any that alter rage.
UBarb doesn't suck because it has less DR. It sucks because they purposely eliminated or nerfed a bunch of rage powers. The poster child for me will always be Dragon Totem Wings. It wasn't even that good (2 rage/round, limits on armor) but they explicitly left it out (while still including the other two Dragon Totem powers). Oh, and the fact that at the time of publishing, Sunder Enchantment was impossible to take. Having slightly more DR doesn't fix that in the slightest.
Well, the Barbarian is probably going to be using Power Attack and one other feat (Iron Will, Raging Vitality, Weapon Focus). He's not really in a bad position feat-wise, because he has the only real feat he needs, which is Power Attack. Everything else is just a bonus.
Stalwart can be taken on the UBarb as well, even if it's delayed, but to be honest Stalwart is really only good if you have Crane Style (and Crane Riposte if you really want to invest it), because a -4 to hit isn't going to be worth the 6 or so DR you get, tops. Also, you need to be spending 3 other feats for it, so that means either no Power Attack, or only get 3 DR, at the cost of -4 to hit. Not worth it in my experience, even if you get the feat at 9th level to double it to 6 DR (because then you aren't hitting anything worth a damn).
You do realize that several of those things are mutually exclusive, right? Barbarians can't both fly and pounce at the same time through their Rage Powers (you'd think Totem Warrior would fix this, but no, it's a broken archetype that doesn't even work). Lack of Spell Sunder sucks, though that's the only truly good and universal Rage Power that's gone, but Witch Hunter was a meh bonus that was convenient when it actually applied, and Superstition, as far as I know, is still game for the UBarb, and scales exactly the same as before too. Dragon Totem didn't stack with Beast Totem anyway, so lacking Dragon Totem Wings isn't even that big of a deal.
@ thorin001: You're assuming all tables have access or allow retraining, especially of that caliber. That's a dangerous game to be playing there, even if the rules allow it to happen. It also costs a lot of gold and time to do, which not many GMs provide the time to do so. For those tables that do allow it? Great. For those that don't? There are many, and it results in sad days.
If the FAQ isn't what the rules say then I ignore it.
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I never really thought taking the improved DR power was what made the archetype powerful, I never did when I used it. I took Stalwart/Improved Stalwart and used my rage powers to snag the magic destroying/beast totem lines, so this doesn't really impact me that much.
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I plan to just ignore it if it comes up.
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
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Yeah I never took the increased damage reduction either.
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
They do whatever anyone else does against an optimized blaster.
They die.
Or, ya know, use those d12 hit dice to survive the damage.
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Barbarians can't both fly and pounce at the same time through their Rage Powers
This is incorrect, and I dunno why people still believe it. Elemental Blood has existed for two years now as a means of getting in-class flight that stacks just fine with Beast Totem.
I feel like this FAQ was probably an attempt at sneakily nerfing the Invulnerable Rager, but I'm pretty sure no one takes that rage power anyways because all the other ones are so damn good. This changes nothing for optimized Barbarians.
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Or, ya know, use those d12 hit dice to survive the damage.
Ha.
If they're a barbarian, they use Superstition to have amazing saves against those blasts. At higher levels, with a ring of evasion, they simply wade through the blasts and punch the mage's head off.
Probably the only "fool proof" method. Just gotta watch out for those ambushes.
This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?
If it's a standard blaster, Superstition and having some semblance of Dexterity will allow a usually successful save to reduce the damage well enough to not outright kill the Barbarian.
A truly optimized blaster will still beat the living daylights out of said Barbarian though, since their save DCs will be at a level well beyond what the Barbarian can comfortably reach, and their average damage will equate to what they accrue with rage and constitution/hit dice. They might live with a lucky roll, or they might die with an unlucky roll. Either way, the Barbarian is going to have a bad time.
@ N. Jolly: Well, taking that on top of your existing, scaling DR was really nice. Now that you can't, it's only a very slightly better option, and for what you trade out for it, you can still be a relatively defensive Barbarian and now trade those things you originally traded before for something else that might be helpful; Titan Mauler may actually be worthwhile now, even the Scarred Rager offers good defensive options, with the ability to reroll saving throws that inflict debilitating conditions.
Even stuff that simply replaces Trap Sense (because Uncanny Dodge denying flat-footed and flanking is pretty nice for being Rambo and all) would be good to take.
@ Arachnofiend: Interesting, though as far as I can tell, most optimized Barbarians don't bother taking those powers anyway. They all take Beast Totem, CAGM, Superstition, Witch Hunter, Spell Sunder, and Reckless Abandon. If they're keen on optimizing their DR (the biggest reason why Invulnerable Rager was so damn popular), the Increased DR option is also taken.
There are other ways to acquire reliable and useful flying, making spending 3 Rage Powers for that sort of thing not worth it.
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Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.
The barbarian can fly at least two different ways that aren't Dragon Totem Wings.
Unchained Superstition no longer works against Su abilities, only spells and spell-likes. There's a @#$%load of Su abilities you want your saves to apply against.
I only brought up Stalwart because you're comparing a barbarian with all of their feats and rage powers to one who has sacrificed at least one rage power and two feats (or three feats). Of course the second one is better. It spent a bunch more resources to do it. The most apt comparison for us (since you're focusing on just DR and completely ignoring everything else) is Stalwart, as it raises DR. You can't ignore it otherwise only your build gets to spend feats.
...you cannot, absolutely @#$% cannot, say "You're assuming all tables have access or allow retraining" when the entire basis of your comparison is the UBarb retraining their feats to take Extra Rage Power for a rage power they only qualify for at the level they retrained. That's dishonest is the worst way.
One requires 3 Rage Powers, the other requires Rage Cycling to be truly effective in combat. Although Dragon Totem Wings isn't much better, it did synergize and offer benefits besides "Oh, you get a Fly speed."
The only major SU ability I can think up of is a Breath Weapon. Even then, your Reflex save sucks nuts, and a Cloak + Superstition only makes it so that you aren't a complete wash-up. Plus, you have D12 hit dice, and usually a crapton of Constitution. I'm sure you can stomach a Breath Weapon or two, while you fly into the Dragon's face and chop it into confetti.
The entire point of the comparison is to demonstrate how lacking the Increased Damage Reduction to apply to all forms of DR, whether it's UBarb or CBarb, severely cripples the primary advantage that the Invulnerable Rager grants. Clearly, before, when both could take the option, the Invulnerable Rager was the better route. Now, I'm not so sure.
Again, no sane Barbarian would pick up Stalwart unless he has the Crane Style/Crane Riposte feat. Otherwise, he's taking a -4 penalty to hit for +3 (or +6) DR, which isn't worth the 4+ feats required to make it worthwhile. The other alternative is going Total Defense, but then you aren't attacking, so...
In addition, the post I cited decided to use the retraining rules to use the feats to qualify for it. But I don't; you don't have to pick them all up right away. Even a basic Feat/Rage Power progression would work. Let's take a Human Barbarian, which is pretty cookie cutter, and a fairly strong choice, too.
1. Power Attack*, Raging Vitality
2. Lesser Beast Totem
3. Extra Rage Power (Superstition)
4. Reckless Abandon
5. Extra Rage Power (Witch Hunter)
6. Beast Totem
7. Extra Rage Power (Spell Sunder)
8. Increased Damage Reduction X1
9. Improved Critical (Weapon)/Improved Sunder
10. Greater Beast Totem
11. Extra Rage Power (Increased Damage Reduction X2)
12. Increased Damage Reduction X3
13+. X
So you can get one conservatively by 8th level; the next doesn't come until 11th level at the latest, because Improved Critical (depending on your weapon) grants infinitely more damage potential, and Pounce from Greater Beast Totem is absolutely necessary for dishing out pain. Regardless of if you are using a Falchion/Nodachi (I don't know why you wouldn't, they're the best two-handed weapons in the game), then you have your "capped" DR at 12th level.
Now, I could delay some of these options and just rush the Increased Damage Reduction or other rage powers straight away, but since retraining isn't allowed, and you'd want the build to be "optimized" and practical, this is the best course of action.
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Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.
This is what I always assumed. Uncanny Dodge is nothing, it's free DR. Hell, with how many great rage powers there are and how many feats you can take, snagging improved DR would be a level 15+ strategy for me, not really influencing the core of any build I'd take.
Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.
True; I mean, denying Sneak Attacks may be helpful, but to be honest, that's few and far between because Rogues suck, Slayers deal much more damage beyond Sneak Attack, and any other class that uses Sneak Attack still sucks anyway.
Also, Dexterity-based Barbarians are a trap option. They can't feasibly work unless you can use an Elven Curved Blade and dip 3 levels in UCRogue (which still sucks, by the way), or have over 16,000 gold to spend, and a permissive GM which allows the Agile property. Needless to say, Urban Barbarian is bad and should feel bad.
But quite frankly, when a base Barbarian is only 2 DR less than what the Invulnerable Rager acquires by the endgame, the substitution of Trap Sense and the Uncanny Dodges are minimial gains at best.
Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.True; I mean, denying Sneak Attacks may be helpful, but to be honest, that's few and far between because Rogues suck, Slayers deal much more damage beyond Sneak Attack, and any other class that uses Sneak Attack still sucks anyway.
How many monsters are you going to fight that have sneak attack anyway?
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Also, Dexterity-based Barbarians are a trap option. They can't feasibly work unless you can use an Elven Curved Blade and dip 3 levels in UCRogue (which still sucks, by the way), or have over 16,000 gold to spend, and a permissive GM which allows the Agile property. Needless to say, Urban Barbarian is bad and should feel bad.
Dervish Dance works quite well, actually...
I took IR on my barbarian because I had absolutely no use for Trap Sense. Like, none whatsoever. Uncanny Dodge was an unfortunate sacrifice I was willing to make. I took nothing else that affected DR in any way. So no, people do not chose IR just to "optimize DR".
Edit: By that build the IR is ahead in DR until level 11 (where it's behind by 1) then behind by 2 until level 18 where it's back to only behind by 1. So for half of its levels, the ones people are more likely to play, the IR is ahead. Again, after blowing a feat and two rage powers versus absolutely nothing spent by the IR. I'm really not seeing how this is so great. The UBarb can spend a bunch of feats and rage powers on stuff the IR doesn't have to and only gets one or two points ahead! Woooooo?
You did say it yourself, that UBarb doesn't have many good rage powers to spend them on. Quite frankly, the 2 DR scale is a lot more valuable than several of the Rage Powers that you want to stack together but can't because of mechanics and balance reasons.
After all, I can't take Witch Hunter or Spell Sunder as a UBarb, and those are integral parts to the Barbarian's optimized identity.
Again, I'm not saying that the UBarb or CBarb DR becomes better than Invulnerable Rager scaling; all I'm suggesting is that with proper investments, there may be a new 'de facto' archetype which defeats the entire purpose of the Invulnerable Rager (stacking DR by removing practically negligible class features) by replacing the same negligible class features with something else.
Also, Dexterity-based Barbarians are a trap option. They can't feasibly work unless you can use an Elven Curved Blade and dip 3 levels in UCRogue (which still sucks, by the way), or have over 16,000 gold to spend, and a permissive GM which allows the Agile property. Needless to say, Urban Barbarian is bad and should feel bad.Dervish Dance works quite well, actually...
One-handing for 1:1 Dexterity isn't enough damage, even if you crit-fish with a 15-20/X2. Buckler AC for Barbarians are crap, doesn't scale well, and quite frankly isn't worth the investment if you're picking up DR. Also, that's a two-feat investment that can be better spent on Rage Powers, Power Attack, Raging Vitality, etc.
Plus, your AC will be just as good compared to simply wearing high AC armor with a low Dexterity modifier, with increased Touch AC (and reduced Flat-Footed AC).
Seriously, trap option is a trap.
Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.True; I mean, denying Sneak Attacks may be helpful, but to be honest, that's few and far between because Rogues suck, Slayers deal much more damage beyond Sneak Attack, and any other class that uses Sneak Attack still sucks anyway.
{. . .}
Vivisectionist Alchemist begs to differ.
Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.True; I mean, denying Sneak Attacks may be helpful, but to be honest, that's few and far between because Rogues suck, Slayers deal much more damage beyond Sneak Attack, and any other class that uses Sneak Attack still sucks anyway.
{. . .}Vivisectionist Alchemist begs to differ.
Vivisectionists are... few and far between in Paizo publications, if they exist at all. I can't remember ever fighting one. Of course, in home games they could potentially be much more common depending on the GM.
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Also, Dexterity-based Barbarians are a trap option. They can't feasibly work unless you can use an Elven Curved Blade and dip 3 levels in UCRogue (which still sucks, by the way), or have over 16,000 gold to spend, and a permissive GM which allows the Agile property. Needless to say, Urban Barbarian is bad and should feel bad.Dervish Dance works quite well, actually...One-handing for 1:1 Dexterity isn't enough damage, even if you crit-fish with a 15-20/X2. Buckler AC for Barbarians are crap, doesn't scale well, and quite frankly isn't worth the investment if you're picking up DR. Also, that's a two-feat investment that can be better spent on Rage Powers, Power Attack, Raging Vitality, etc.
Plus, your AC will be just as good compared to simply wearing high AC armor with a low Dexterity modifier, with increased Touch AC (and reduced Flat-Footed AC).
Seriously, trap option is a trap.
It's not a trap option. It's just a different option with different priorities.
When players go for Dex-to-Damage, they aren't going for maximum damage output. They just want agile characters with decent damage... Otherwise they'd just go Str-based and two-hand a falchion or something.
Just a note: It would actually be quite difficult for a devoted blaster build to get saves out of reach of a superstitious barbarian. Blaster builds are about taking metamagic feats to vastly increase damage, NOT about saving throws.
Also, most blaster builds are based around low level spells, like Fireball. When you don't have enough feats to spend on Spell Focus and the like, the combo of low base spell + Int vs Superstitious isn't going to be excessive. An evasion ring will work just fine for the barb...and then when he gets Spell Eater, the wizard is healing him by lobbing damage spells at him.
I remember seeing a blaster build somewhere that dealt around 100 damage... On a successful save.
Yeah...
Also, Dexterity-based Barbarians are a trap option. They can't feasibly work unless you can use an Elven Curved Blade and dip 3 levels in UCRogue (which still sucks, by the way), or have over 16,000 gold to spend, and a permissive GM which allows the Agile property. Needless to say, Urban Barbarian is bad and should feel bad.Dervish Dance works quite well, actually...One-handing for 1:1 Dexterity isn't enough damage, even if you crit-fish with a 15-20/X2. Buckler AC for Barbarians are crap, doesn't scale well, and quite frankly isn't worth the investment if you're picking up DR. Also, that's a two-feat investment that can be better spent on Rage Powers, Power Attack, Raging Vitality, etc.
Plus, your AC will be just as good compared to simply wearing high AC armor with a low Dexterity modifier, with increased Touch AC (and reduced Flat-Footed AC).
Seriously, trap option is a trap.
It's not a trap option. It's just a different option with different priorities.
When players go for Dex-to-Damage, they aren't going for maximum damage output. They just want agile characters with decent damage... Otherwise they'd just go Str-based and two-hand a falchion or something.
But outside of flavor reasons, what benefit is there to do that?
Better AC? Maybe a couple points, because Barbarians use Medium Armor and dump their Dexterity to maybe a 12 tops, but it's not the end of the world. They could wear Full Plate instead and be at the same exact amount of AC; less Touch AC, but Touch AC is hard to bring up to a good amount no matter what class you play, so it doesn't really matter.
Better means of attack? Maybe if you're trying to go ranged, but that lacks damage since Dexterity doesn't apply unless you get some niche ability or feature. It otherwise costs at least two feats, and doesn't deal anywhere near as much damage than just sticking with pumping Strength and getting 1.5x modifier and Power Attack bonuses. Seriously, unless it's 3 levels of UCRogue with an Elven Curved Blade, it's not gonna compare.
Better Skills? Sure, Acrobatics is like the only skill a Barbarian might bother investing ranks into, but quite frankly if he has to dance around the battlefield instead of just kill people dead with his ridiculous amount of damage, then why am I playing a Barbarian? That's some Ninja or UCRogue kind of stuff there.
Better Saves? This is probably the only selling point, but to be honest, it's still not worth it because of what you give up for it in return, which is significantly less damage, plus feats better spent elsewhere, and even class features depending on which route you take. There's also the issue of carrying capacity, since I imagine you'll be dumping Strength to bump your Dexterity to its peak, as well as the limited means to increase your Dexterity compared to increasing your Strength.
Trust me, I've vetted this stuff, did some compare and contrast, and it shows; it might look better, but on paper, it just isn't.
I remember seeing a blaster build somewhere that dealt around 100 damage... On a successful save.
Yeah...
If that's on one spell, I'd like to see the math. If it's for a single round of casting, I've seen (and calculated) higher.
Intensified Empowered Maximized Firesnake with crossblooded +2/Die dmg, cast at cl 20 (doable by level 15 via Spell Spec and CL boosts doubled by Spell perfection).Use Magical lineage to reduce Intensified to +0. Spell Perfection pays off Maximize, Empower from Rod = uses 5th level spell slot. IF you double up with Wayang Spell Hunter for another -1 to the MM cost, you can cast it unaided from a level 6 slot (reducing Empower to +1).
20d6+40 Maxed = 160. 10d6+20 avg = +55. 215 damage base, 1/2 on save.
You can do the same with Cone of Cold or DB fireball, if you like. Me, I'd just customize a 5th level fireball with a 15d cap.
I hear a lot of doom and gloom about this but... how often did people actually take increased DR as a rage power? I don't remember seeing it very often in builds and DR1/- for a rage power always seemed like kind of a crappy deal.
For the record, Wayang Spell Hunter only applies to 3rd level spells or lower.
Let's try it with a Blood Arcanist: Intensified Maximized Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball, with Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, and Potent Magic at 15th level with CL 24, Orc Bloodline, and Intense Spells from School Understanding (Admixture). Intensified is handwaived through Magical Lineage, Empowered is added for free via Spell Perfection, and Maximized is applied through a Rod. This results in a standard 7th level spell slot.
This puts our damage at 24D6+30 Maximized (AKA 174 damage), plus 12D6+10 Empowered (average 52), 226 damage total, with a DC 28 Saving Throw (10 Base + 10 Intelligence + 7 Spell Level + 1 Spell Focus) that can be of a damage type of any of the 4 primary elements (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire), so the chances of it being resisted or being immunized is nearly impossible, and the opportunity for it to affect Vulnerabilities (+50% increased damage) is greatly increased.
mm.
Orc bloodline is +1/die. Intense spells is +1/2 wizard level of 15, so +7. You can use Potent Spell to reach CL 25 and max out the spell if you can spend more then 1 arcane pool point, right?
So you'd be at 25d6 +25 (orc) +7 Caster level, for 25d6 +32 (182), +50%, so 12d6+16 (avg 58), for a total of 240. Note that a greater rod of maximize costs more then Empower.
Is there a magic item that would grant you the effects of an elemental or draconic bloodline for another +37?
:)
Spend all your money on a cloak of resistance to survive?
mm.
Orc bloodline is +1/die. Intense spells is +1/2 wizard level of 15, so +7. You can use Potent Spell to reach CL 25 and max out the spell if you can spend more then 1 arcane pool point, right?
So you'd be at 25d6 +25 (orc) +7 Caster level, for 25d6 +32 (182), +50%, so 12d6+16 (avg 58), for a total of 240. Note that a greater rod of maximize costs more then Empower.
Is there a magic item that would grant you the effects of an elemental or draconic bloodline for another +37?
:)
CL 24 would be the highest I could get. Potent Magic allows spending 1 Arcane Point as a Free Action for +2 CL or +2 Save DC, full stop; Spell Specialization and Mage Tattoo add +3 CL, and Spell Specialization doubles that to +6.
Short of an Ampoule of False Blood, which simply replaces whatever bloodline you have with an existing one, I don't think so. If there is one, well...
Human Barb Superstition bonus:
1 +2
3 +3
4 +4
6 +5
8 +6
9 +7
12 +9
15 +10
16 +11
18 +12
20 +13
Reflex save is +6 at 20, so +19 Reflex save.
Let's say a 20 dex. +24 Reflex save
+5 CLoak of Prot. +29 Reflex save.
And what was that D B Fireball? 28? Ah. Fails on a 1.
At 15th, lets say a 16 Dex and +5 Cloak, +5 from levels. +23. Makes it on a 5, or less if the mage doesn't have 30 Int.
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This was my Chain Lightning optimization.
Human Barb Superstition bonus:
1 +2
3 +3
4 +4
6 +5
8 +6
9 +7
12 +9
15 +10
16 +11
18 +12
20 +13Reflex save is +6 at 20, so +19 Reflex save.
Let's say a 20 dex. +24 Reflex save
+5 CLoak of Prot. +29 Reflex save.And what was that D B Fireball? 28? Ah. Fails on a 1.
At 15th, lets say a 16 Dex and +5 Cloak, +5 from levels. +23. Makes it on a 5, or less if the mage doesn't have 30 Int.
Impressive saving throws. Keep in mind that this is using an area of effect spell, so the damage would apply to all creatures in an area, not just a Barbarian. After all, using an area of effect blast spell to try and destroy a single target is highly impractical.
I could instead just focus on Battering Blast, hit you with 6(1.5(15D6+15))+10, with no Save, is Force damage (means can't be reduced in any way), and can Quicken for yet another set of the same; with this stuff combined, I would be deal over 500 points of damage on average: Nothing, not even a Tarrasque, would survive that damage. The only ways to stop it would be by using an Anti-Magic Field, Mage's Disjunction, Spellbane, or excessive Counterspelling, none of which the Barbarian can perform.
Human Barb Superstition bonus:
1 +2
3 +3
4 +4
6 +5
8 +6
9 +7
12 +9
15 +10
16 +11
18 +12
20 +13Reflex save is +6 at 20, so +19 Reflex save.
Let's say a 20 dex. +24 Reflex save
+5 CLoak of Prot. +29 Reflex save.And what was that D B Fireball? 28? Ah. Fails on a 1.
At 15th, lets say a 16 Dex and +5 Cloak, +5 from levels. +23. Makes it on a 5, or less if the mage doesn't have 30 Int.Impressive saving throws. Keep in mind that this is using an area of effect spell, so the damage would apply to all creatures in an area, not just a Barbarian. After all, using an area of effect blast spell to try and destroy a single target is highly impractical.
I could instead just focus on Battering Blast, hit you with 6(1.5(15D6+15))+10, with no Save, is Force damage (means can't be reduced in any way), and can Quicken for yet another set of the same; with this stuff combined, I would be deal over 500 points of damage on average: Nothing, not even a Tarrasque, would survive that damage. The only ways to stop it would be by using an Anti-Magic Field, Mage's Disjunction, Spellbane, or excessive Counterspelling, none of which the Barbarian can perform.
... So how does this prove that Invulnerable Rager is terrible now?
wow, a magic missile, uncapped, on roids. only drawback is short range and ranged touch, which ain't much of a drawback at all. Definitely a single target killer if you'd prefer to go that route. And you don't even need to intensify it since it hasn't got a cap. Just shoot your CL to the moon and you just do more and more dmg.
I can see this being a VERY useful spell at 15+.
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I could instead just focus on Battering Blast, hit you with 6(1.5(15D6+15))+10, with no Save, is Force damage (means can't be reduced in any way), and can Quicken for yet another set of the same; with this stuff combined, I would be deal over 500 points of damage on average: {. . .}
How do you get that much damage? Battering Blast caps out a 5d6, and even Intensify Spell won't get it past 10d6, and Empower Spell gets it to 16d6, and then Maximize Spell gets it to 90, while Bloodline Shenanigans might get it to 105 or 120. If you Quicken an identical one, that is still at most 240 in 1 round.