Any chance we will see a Mythic update product for Occult and Intrigue?

[Herald]

I certainly don't think that a whole hard back would need to come out, but I'd love to see a soft cover book that offered some options.

[QuidEst]

Nope.

Well, that's not actually true- there is some chance of Paizo releasing such a thing, but Mythic didn't do very well. You'll probably have better luck finding a third-part product that handles it well, or just homebrewing something yourself.

[Herald]

QuidEst wrote:

Nope.

Well, that's not actually true- there is some chance of Paizo releasing such a thing, but Mythic didn't do very well. You'll probably have better luck finding a third-part product that handles it well, or just homebrewing something yourself.

I seriously doubt that you have evidence that backs that up.

[N. Jolly]

Herald wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Nope.

Well, that's not actually true- there is some chance of Paizo releasing such a thing, but Mythic didn't do very well. You'll probably have better luck finding a third-part product that handles it well, or just homebrewing something yourself.

I seriously doubt that you have evidence that backs that up.

Nah, I gotta agree with Quid here. I feel like if it had gone well, we'd be seeing it supported in APs more often. Or that it would get random updated content in player books, since it is main series content. The fact that aside from mythic origins and maybe a few misc things we haven't seen new content for it is a pretty big indicator of how well it's done and if we'll see more content from it.

[Enlight_Bystand]

I think the more accurate term is that Mythic wasn't received well, at least as a full play form. Just look at the Wrath boards for the stories of abandoned games.

[QuidEst]

However, the Trancendendentalist Occult Mythic path is a third party option with a five-star Endzeitgeist.com review, and I think there's at least one other out there. If you're using Mythic, Occult classes are a big gap, and 3P is going to be much better than shoving them into Archmage.

[Chemlak]

The success of the Mythic Mania Kickstarter seems to suggest that Mythic as a rule set has been received quite well, and some 3PP (notably Legendary Games) continue to release mythic content, which I doubt they would if it didn't sell.

However, I'm quite willing to agree that there are problems with mythic, particularly with how tiers above about 4 interact with APL, and those problems mean that the balance of WotR beyond book 2 are out of step in the players' favour (just see how many Wrath games die in book 3).

Due to this, mythic works brilliantly for GMs (mythic rank works well with the CR system), but not so well for players. Which isn't to say that it can't be done (my own mythic campaign came to a natural end with the PCs at tier 5), but mythic tiers aren't a straightforward +1/2 APL except at the low end. I don't think anyone's actually crunched numbers on it, but my gut says tiers 1-4 are +1/2, 5-8 are +1, and 9-10 are something else. Without that sort of simple guidance, it's very hard to effectively implement mythic rules into a game without utterly wrecking it.

[GM Rednal]

It also helps if you read the Solutions bit in the Mythic Hero's Handbook, which actually addresses many of the problems found in Mythic play and gives potential resolutions. (For example, changing some of the most problematic abilities, slowing Mythic power gain so players are less likely to burn it whenever, and so on.)

[Herald]

I don't actually imagine that a seventh path will be released for occult classes since the six original paths were supposed to represent the arch-typical 6 stat blocks. The 6 paths are also used again in the Spiritualist class. Personally with just making a few tweaks and additions to the existing paths you could make them all work.

[Brother Fen]

Legendary Games has been expanding mythic options to occult and now intrigue options.

That said, the mythic archetypes are independent of any class and fit in with any type of build. For example, the guardian path works just as well for a psychic as it would for a cleric.

[Tacticslion]

I would love to see more Intrigue, Occult, and so-on mythic elements, too!

EDIT: And mythic tech!

[Kvantum]

As QuidEst says above, there is the Transcendentalist mythic path from Rogue Genius. It also includes a 7th path option for Occultists.

Now as far as Mythic for the Vigilante, that's not something we've seen much of yet. Still, though, why would you take anything other than Trickster or maybe Champion for them?

[Torbyne]

Hmm, so the majority of Mythic content came out in 2013 with Mythic Adventures, Mythic Origins and Mythic Realms. I do not know of any dedicated Mythic material since then, though Bestiary 4 (another 2013 release) had a lot of Mythic monsters. There have been a few, as in one or two entries per book of monsters released since 2013 as parts of other product lines but i am not aware any significant additions to the Mythic rules set for about three years. It does not seem to be a focus of the company at this time what with Horror Adventures being the next hardback, which means we will be getting horror origins and horror realms to support it and likely a lot of horror material in a hardback bestiary (as 4 had mythic and 5 included psychics). After the horror materials we will be seeing Starfinder which will be siphoning at least a few product releases for its own support.

I do not have actual sales or play data to support my viewpoint but Mythic does not seem to have been well accepted by the player base. it does not feature heavily in the APs and is not significantly supported beyond its own demi-brand of Mythic X books. As such i feel we have seen the end of major additions to the Mythic rules.

[Herald]

Kvantum wrote:

As QuidEst says above, there is the Transcendentalist mythic path from Rogue Genius. It also includes a 7th path option for Occultists.

Now as far as Mythic for the Vigilante, that's not something we've seen much of yet. Still, though, why would you take anything other than Trickster or maybe Champion for them?

Yea, Really don't like the idea of a 7th path as I would like to stick to the six.

[GM Rednal]

Torbyne wrote:

I do not have actual sales or play data to support my viewpoint but Mythic does not seem to have been well accepted by the player base. it does not feature heavily in the APs and is not significantly supported beyond its own demi-brand of Mythic X books. As such i feel we have seen the end of major additions to the Mythic rules.

Unless, of course, you count 3PP material, which has thoroughly expanded the ruleset. XD Feats, spells, class abilities, new powers... there is a LOT of Mythic Stuff out from Legendary Games, and it's worth taking a look at if you use the ruleset.

[Torbyne]

GM Rednal wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

I do not have actual sales or play data to support my viewpoint but Mythic does not seem to have been well accepted by the player base. it does not feature heavily in the APs and is not significantly supported beyond its own demi-brand of Mythic X books. As such i feel we have seen the end of major additions to the Mythic rules.

Unless, of course, you count 3PP material, which has thoroughly expanded the ruleset. XD Feats, spells, class abilities, new powers... there is a LOT of Mythic Stuff out from Legendary Games, and it's worth taking a look at if you use the ruleset.

Yes, to clarify, i was only considering Paizo releases for Mythic content. As an example, DSP has been extremely successful with their Psionics for Pathfinder for years while Paizo's take on Psionics has been far more limited and not nearly as supported after its big 3 push (adventures, origins, realms) But i dont consider DSP's success when looking at the chances for future Paizo releases. For what it is worth, i see a lot more chatter on the boards about the occult classes than i do for mythic and feel there are better chances of occult material in future releases than more Paizo Mythic material. Regarding Herald's original post, i stand by my thought, i dont think we'll see any Mythic centric (Paizo) books in the next 1-2 years.

[GM Rednal]

Not to any significant degree, although I imagine we'll still see the occasional bestiary and adventure enemy with Mythic Tiers. XD

[Jason Nelson]

N. Jolly wrote:

Herald wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Nope.

Well, that's not actually true- there is some chance of Paizo releasing such a thing, but Mythic didn't do very well. You'll probably have better luck finding a third-part product that handles it well, or just homebrewing something yourself.

I seriously doubt that you have evidence that backs that up.

Nah, I gotta agree with Quid here. I feel like if it had gone well, we'd be seeing it supported in APs more often. Or that it would get random updated content in player books, since it is main series content. The fact that aside from mythic origins and maybe a few misc things we haven't seen new content for it is a pretty big indicator of how well it's done and if we'll see more content from it.

That's pretty much Paizo's MO around new things they have introduced for the most part. You don't see much supplemental material from Paizo for new rules in Ultimate Campaign, Occult Adventures, Ultimate Intrigue, or the Advanced/Ultimate hardbacks EXCEPT for some level of ongoing support for new classes in later releases. Some have gotten more support than others (a lot more new official investigator material than for hunters or shamans).

Hardback plus a couple of supplements when it comes out (an Origins/Realms to tie it to Golarion). A chunk of related monsters in the next Bestiary. Sometimes an AP chapter or full AP. Then they move on.

Books that get more than that are the exception rather than the rule. Mythic actually got a full AP devoted to it.

[Jason Nelson]

Herald wrote:

Kvantum wrote:

As QuidEst says above, there is the Transcendentalist mythic path from Rogue Genius. It also includes a 7th path option for Occultists.

Now as far as Mythic for the Vigilante, that's not something we've seen much of yet. Still, though, why would you take anything other than Trickster or maybe Champion for them?

Yea, Really don't like the idea of a 7th path as I would like to stick to the six.

Introducing a new path is really about having a different idea on how a person achieves immortality (whether actual immortality or just living on in story and song) - what makes them famous or amazing or unique. The core six paths cover:

- strong warrior
- tough guy who can survive anything
- arcane caster
- divine caster
- trickster/sneak
- leader/face

Obviously and intentionally those map to the six ability scores. But why or how else could a person become a legendary figure?

In the Mythic Hero's Handbook, we introduced four new mythic paths that explored different themes:

- The Genius, uses their brain to become legendary through cleverness, invention, technology, knowledge, and lore, maybe using arcane magic but maybe not. It is their ability to figure things out and devise the ultimate solution. Consider this Tony Stark.

- The Stranger becomes legendary due to the air of mystery around them. They are the man with no name, the wandering drifter, the one that no one can tame or find but always appears when things look grim. A character more like Batman.

- The Living Saint is someone who becomes like a god himself, negotiating their own place among the powers of the universe. Perhaps someone like the Spectre or the Phantom Stranger.

- The Overmind is more mechanically focused, much like the Archmage or Hierophant but focused on mastering their path to mythic power through Dreamscarred Press psionics. For comics reference, Professor X.

Since then, we've also published the Path of the Reluctant Hero, for those kinds of characters that become legendary almost in spite of themselves. Whether wide-eyed farmboys, retired soldiers, mysterious orphans, and on down the list, they'd much rather stay home yet find themselves in the thick of adventure and through plain good sense, good luck, and undeniable tenacity, they find a way to turn the tide. Think Bilbo Baggins.

We have another path in being written right now by Robert Brookes and David Ross, the title still up in the air but perhaps "Path of the Contract," engaging heroes whose path to mythic power doesn't come from them at all but through their allegiance and binding to greater powers beyond.

We have several more path ideas brewing as well. Mythic Magic: Occult Spells by Amanda Hamon-Kunz and I is already out. Mythic Magic: Intrigue Spells is being written as we speak, by folks who worked on the Ultimate Intrigue hardback.

TL;DR - Check out our Mythic product page here at Paizo. We've produced over 150 products for mythic and counting, including plenty of support for Occult and Intrigue, with more to come (and Horror as well), written by a staff of writers most of whom worked on the original Mythic Adventures hardback and almost all of whom are regular Paizo freelancers, and much of which was produced as part of the Top 100 RPG-related Kickstarters ever.

If you're looking for further releases from Paizo in mythic, I'd agree with the OP that it's not very likely. If you're looking for support for mythic, especially for occult and intrigue, with absolutely Legendary quality? You've got it.

[skizzerz]

Another piece of evidence against mythic: Mythic Adventures has not yet had a second printing, and it's been almost 3 years since release. That means that the initial print run has yet to sell out. On the converse, Advanced Class Guide already has a second printing and has been on the market an entire year less. Obviously print run sizes vary, but I'd think those sizes would generally increase rather than decrease as Pathfinder gains more and more followers.

[GM Rednal]

I think they're also targeted to somewhat different audiences, though. New classes can be used in a lot of different games, whereas the Mythic rules are for a very specific type of game. They're both rulebooks, but they're not really for the same audience, y'know? XD

[Squiggit]

Have to agree that it's not exactly proof the system is disliked because Paizo rarely ever supports its variant subsystems in the first place.

So I can't imagine anything else for Mythic comes out regardless. Though it does suck that Psychic spellcasting gets nothing out of the system.

Jason Nelson wrote:

- The Overmind

I was totally going to suggest this as a theoretical name for a psychic path.

[skizzerz]

Yes, but if future product support (from paizo) relies on having strong sales of the rulebook, then looking at that data point still gives a valid (albeit expected) comparison. It didn't sell as well as something aimed at a larger audience, so why should they devote more books to that if those similarly will not sell as well as something else with more general appeal? Paizo staff have said repeatedly in the past that if we want to see more about some topic, that we should help make sure that the original book about that topic sells well to indicate there is strong interest in expanding that area. I feel mythic is in the same boat (sans aforementioned strong interest). Thankfully, 3pp has picked up the slack, so people wanting mythic options at least have somewhere to turn to.

[Milo v3]

Brother Fen wrote:

Legendary Games has been expanding mythic options to occult and now intrigue options.

That said, the mythic archetypes are independent of any class and fit in with any type of build. For example, the guardian path works just as well for a psychic as it would for a cleric.

Except that psychic casters get very very very very little benefit from archmage or heirophant since those are arcane and divine based.

[GM Rednal]

@Skizzerz: And given that the Mythic Mini's are still going, I figure someone likes the content being made. XD

[Brother Fen]

Milo v3 wrote:

Brother Fen wrote:

Legendary Games has been expanding mythic options to occult and now intrigue options.

That said, the mythic archetypes are independent of any class and fit in with any type of build. For example, the guardian path works just as well for a psychic as it would for a cleric.

Except that psychic casters get very very very very little benefit from archmage or heirophant since those are arcane and divine based.

Then buy the Legendary Games mythic occult options when they come out. If you don't want 3PP, then wail and gnash your teeth while the rest of us enjoy playing.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

See that graveyard up yonder?

You'll find Mythic there... right next to Words of Power. Your only options for Mythic are going to be 3PP from now on.

[Milo v3]

Brother Fen wrote:

Then buy the Legendary Games mythic occult options when they come out.

I do. I was just arguing against you claim that "That said, the mythic archetypes are independent of any class and fit in with any type of build."

I mean, would you seriously put archmage onto a Fighter?

Quote:

If you don't want 3PP, then wail and gnash your teeth while the rest of us enjoy playing.

I'm not exactly sure why you are being rude.

[Jace Concorkill]

I too would like to see some expansions to help these newer classes to get some mythic love, it would not even need to be a hardcover.

[GM Rednal]

I think he meant that the archetypes are independent of classes appropriate for their theme. XD Not that literally any path can be taken with any class and still have it work.

@Jace: I think that's what the Mythic Mini's are doing.

[baja1000]

I don't see how Wrath was a bad game. It was really well written. The story was great and it actually took you all the way to level 20 unlike most of these other AP's. I'm guessing most of the complaints game from GM's who couldn't adapt. I notice when I dig through these forums GM's prefer to keep to the core and keep your stats low. Idk, I do see a line in those saying mythic was poor and those defending it. I feel like if you're gonna do a mythic game the GM should be prepared to adapt. I had problems sure, but I was able to tweak the game from the book and my players had lots of fun.

[GM Rednal]

In fairness, Mythic Adventures is kind of a beta for the system. XD The Mythic Hero's Handbook helps fix some of its biggest problems, and the trilogy as a whole gives enough things to actually threaten Mythic PCs with over the course of the game.

[JiCi]

I've seen Mythic Adventures, Mythic Origins, Mythic Realms, Bestiary 4 and 5 with Mythic elements, but the omittion of Mythic elements in both Occult Adventures and Ultimate Intrigue was weird. Furthermore, for Occult classes, nothing "Mythical" was presented in Occult Bestiary, Occult Origins or Occult Realms.

Maybe it's the fact that Mythic is an optional PC feature. Sure, mythic creatures have been presented, but it feels more like a template-like variation.

It could also be that people keep comparing Mythic Adventures to the Epic Level Handbook, when Mythic isn't for post-20th level characters, but for standard characters with special powers.

Even so, the Mythic classes were focused on the 11 core classes, without going much into the other classes. I hope that they plan to add more mythic rules for the new materials in the future.

[Chemlak]

I think it's because the "Adventures" rulebook type, while not mutually exclusive, are meant to be independent and complete (at time of writing).

So, Occult Adventures doesn't have anything touching on Mythic, since those pages would be pages which require another Adventures book. And I'd be very surprised if there's much space in the Origins and Realms books to squeeze in support for a book they're not directly associated with (most people would probably rather that Occult Origins had more stuff relating to Occult Adventures as opposed to even a two-page spread about Mythic Occult).

I'd be very surprised if Paizo published any more Mythic-focused material, to be honest, for a few reasons:

1) It gives 3PP an awesome bit of design space to play around in.

2) It's somewhat niche, and devoting more book space in their already-hectic schedule to it is less likely than newer products that are more generally applicable.

3) Mythic isn't suitable for organised play (I am not blaming or holding anything against PFS, here) except in very tightly controlled scenarios on a temporary basis, so there's less call for Paizo to need to support mythic powers for kineticists, for example.

And, since it's fairly solidly in 3PP design space, now, any GM running a Mythic game should absolutely use the wealth of 3PP content that's out there.

[Snowlilly]

I expect all future mythic support to come from 3rd party publishers.

Paizo simply does not have a good track record for continuing support for this type of rules expansion.

[GM Rednal]

And they've been doing a pretty good job of it, too. XD

[Dragon78]

It would be nice to see mythic abilities for the kineticist.

[Matrix Dragon]

I would love to see Paizo expand the mythic rules, but at this point it seems pretty unlikely. There was an incredible backlash against Paizo because all mythic did was crank the rocket tag up to 11 when it should have been giving characters better defenses and fun abilities.

The only way Paizo is going to get more than a few gaming groups to take mythic seriously again is by rewriting the entire Mythic Adventures book, so until that happens I doubt we are going to see anything.

[Dragon78]

I like the stat boost and immunities would have loved more extraordinary and supernatural abilities like fast healing, energy immunity, breath weapons, gaze attacks, etc. instead of the mythic spells and mythic feats.

I really wish mythic focused more on stat boost, immunities, resistances, extraordinary abilities, supernatural powers, heightened senses, increased mobility, heroic feats of skill, and divine power that gave your weapons and unarmed/natural strike to bypass most types of DR. It would have been interesting if you added your mythic tier as a divine damage bonus to your weapons, unarmed strikes, natural attacks spells, spell powers, and supernatural abilities.

[GM Rednal]

There ARE quite a lot of DR-bypassing abilities, though. XD

[Gulthor]

Dragon78 wrote:

I like the stat boost and immunities would have loved more extraordinary and supernatural abilities like fast healing, energy immunity, breath weapons, gaze attacks, etc. instead of the mythic spells and mythic feats.

I really wish mythic focused more on stat boost, immunities, resistances, extraordinary abilities, supernatural powers, heightened senses, increased mobility, heroic feats of skill, and divine power that gave your weapons and unarmed/natural strike to bypass most types of DR. It would have been interesting if you added your mythic tier as a divine damage bonus to your weapons, unarmed strikes, natural attacks spells, spell powers, and supernatural abilities.

In our Wrath game, my favorite abilities that I focused on extremely heavily on were Divine Source and Legendary Item. I took each 3 times. Become a quasi-deity and craft an artifact? Can you say all the things I've ever wanted to do as a character?

[Ravingdork]

Jason Nelson wrote:

That's pretty much Paizo's MO around new things they have introduced for the most part. You don't see much supplemental material from Paizo for new rules in Ultimate Campaign, Occult Adventures, Ultimate Intrigue, or the Advanced/Ultimate hardbacks EXCEPT for some level of ongoing support for new classes in later releases. Some have gotten more support than others (a lot more new official investigator material than for hunters or shamans).

I've actually seen a fair amount of support for Ultimate Campaign's downtime rules scattered all throughout the paperbacks.

[Zhangar]

Paizo mythic support for the occult classes would be cool -- even if all they did was add occult-class friendly options to the existing paths.

But in practice, the actual Mythic Adventures book apparently didn't sell well enough to warrant a second printing, as has been noted above.

And that's spilled over into further support for mythic being dropped like a hot coal.

In essence, Mythic is a way to port high-level play mechanics into lower level play, and to take high-level play to even higher echelons of power.

But a lot of folks - probably even the vast majority of folks - don't like high level play to begin with.

And so mythic does have fans (like me and others posting in this thread), but fans of mythic represent a niche market within the already-niche market of table top RPGs.

And Paizo is pragmatic. So if something isn't profitable enough, they stop supporting it. (It's also why we've only gotten like 3 high level modules ever. High level stuff doesn't sell well.)

I think the last official Paizo mythic content that was aimed at players was some stuff in the Alchemy Manual back in 2014.

Now Legendary Games (which includes some of the writers on Mythic Adventures), Rogue Genius Games (i.e., Paizo's Owen K. C. Stephens), and others are still putting out mythic content as 3PP.

Which is about right -- aiming for niches within the niche market (mythic, psionics, etc.) is definitely within the realm of 3PP support.

[Luthorne]

Technically, I think Distant Shores offered some Mythic material. But yeah, I generally agree...overall, Paizo doesn't think - probably rightfully so - that mythic material is very popular, so at most they'll put out a little here and there, not provide a lot of support for new material.

[Tacticslion]

Tacticslion wrote:

I would love to see more Intrigue, Occult, and so-on mythic elements, too!

EDIT: And mythic tech!

Zhangar wrote:

And Paizo is pragmatic. So if something isn't profitable enough, they stop supporting it. (It's also why we've only gotten like 3 high level modules ever. High level stuff doesn't sell well.)

But... but... I have all this money* that I don't know what to do with*...

Zhangar wrote:

Now Legendary Games (which includes some of the writers on Mythic Adventures), Rogue Genius Games (i.e., Paizo's Owen K. C. Stephens), and others are still putting out mythic content as 3PP.

Which is about right -- aiming for niches within the niche market (mythic, psionics, etc.) is definitely within the realm of 3PP support.

Well now I know what to do with it!**

* No.
** Dang it, I needed that...

[N. Jolly]

Dragon78 wrote:

It would be nice to see mythic abilities for the kineticist.

Give me a month or so, and I'll see what I can do.

[captain yesterday]

I would imagine any mythic ability using Ki could easily be used for burn. I'd definitely want to blast people through walls.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Luthorne wrote:

Technically, I think Distant Shores offered some Mythic material. But yeah, I generally agree...overall, Paizo doesn't think - probably rightfully so - that mythic material is very popular, so at most they'll put out a little here and there, not provide a lot of support for new material.

The problem is that mythic stretches and breaks the limits of Pathfinder. Mythic made Wrath of the Righteous a walkthrough for our group, and with one exception, none of us are really the type to munchkin the system. In fact, I suspect that WOTR would have been better played by non-mythic characters.

It is incredibly hard to write for, especially once you get beyond the low level/low rank tiers. And if you try to write challenging encounters for high level mythic characters, you're into lethal rocket tag territory.

I really wanted to like mythic, and parts of it I do. And parts of it I will have fond memories of. I bought every mythic supplement that came out. But I don't know if I'll ever crack open the covers of them again.

[swoosh]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

The problem is that mythic stretches and breaks the limits of Pathfinder.

The problem? Isn't that literally the whole point of the system?

Quote:

Mythic made Wrath of the Righteous a walkthrough

While true, that goes for all of the non-mythic APs too.

[Matrix Dragon]

swoosh wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

The problem is that mythic stretches and breaks the limits of Pathfinder.

The problem? Isn't that literally the whole point of the system?

Quote:

Mythic made Wrath of the Righteous a walkthrough

While true, that goes for all of the non-mythic APs too.

The problem was that Mythic made Wrath of the Righteous into a complete joke. By book 5 our GM had completely given up on having us fight anything other than major bosses after our Wizard killed a group of four Thanatotic Titans (each a CR 22) in a single round. He had to buff the HP of bosses into the thousands in order to get it to last two rounds. My character didn't even get to fight the final boss of the campaign because the other players destroyed its thousands of hit points too quickly.

The thing that killed mythic is that it takes a game that gets out of hand at high levels and made it worse. It didn't break the limits in a good way.