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I would honestly recommend dropping alignment entirely from intrigue games, because "detect evil" and the like makes it too easy for the players to form ideas about who is and isn't trustworthy."about ethical grey areas and about good people willing to do bad things in order to get the job daone,
that's exactly why you would want these rules for then. If there's no risk for alignment shifts then there's no grey.
No it doesn't.
Just becasue you're Evil doesn't mean you can't be trustworthy.
Detect [Alignment] =/= Read minds
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Obviously, we need to run with this concept. I propose:
Hellfire ball [evil]
Like fireball, but does 1d8/lvl damage with no cap.
Color Out of Space Spray [chaotic, evil]
Like color spray, but with scaling HD affected.
Devilish Charm Person [evil]
Like charm person, but you cast it ahead of time and can discharge it stealthily as a swift action when you want to use it.
I mean, the forces of [evil] are slacking by relying on Infernal Healing and Animate Dead
We'd also need rules on how much blood (how many drops) each kind of devil has.
I suspect this may have something to do with why no price is given.
Third level wizard can summon lemures, right? So you summon one, bleed it, and craft a wand with the blood (the crafting components are consumed when the process of creating a wand starts), then let the lemure return to hell 50 drops of blood lighter.
So devil blood is basically free. By contrast doing this sort of thing with a celestial creature (not that you'd want a wand of celestial healing) seems pretty evil.
Would basic summoning work though? Or would the blood and anything else extracted go POOF once the Lemure was killed/banished/spell expired?
I figure it's like virtual particles in quantum mechanics, as long as the temporary thing does something which has an effect before it ceases to exist, then it doesn't matter that it only existed for a limited amount of time, the effect still happened.
So if you can summon the lemure, get 50 drops of blood, then start the wand creation process (remember the wand creation rules say "Material components are consumed when work begins"), before the spell expires, you're good. Might be tough to do in 18 seconds, but a higher level wizard (or like a summoner whose summons last minutes) could manage it.
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Doesn't matter. Good aligned church inquisitors would cap your ass for selling questionable goods. Because "good".
So you won't make millions. Just a new character.
Oh, the flavor! [evil] = temptation, [good] = murder
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[good] is temptation if you're [evil] and fighting other [evil] ;)
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"about ethical grey areas and about good people willing to do bad things in order to get the job daone,
that's exactly why you would want these rules for then. If there's no risk for alignment shifts then there's no grey.
I would honestly recommend dropping alignment entirely from intrigue games, because "detect evil" and the like makes it too easy for the players to form ideas about who is and isn't trustworthy.
Last time I checked my copy of Pathfinder Unchained was a hardbound book, so is part of the core rules as assumpions and has rules for "subjective alignment".
But almost all games use fewer than "all of the rules printed in hardback books" just as a logistical matter.
For new players to the game, spells like detect evil are misleading.
Detect [alignment] only covers creatures with 6+ HD, unless they are aligned outsiders or divine classes with the aura class feature. And even there, the divine classes with the aura class feature won't detect the character's alignment unless it is 6+ HD, you'll just detect their deity's alignment (which should be within 1 step, but isn't the same thing as knowing their alignment). Beyond that, there are many spells which can conceal or misrepresent alignments.
Knowing they detect as a particular alignment is about as useful as a metal detector for security checkpoint - It's enough to raise suspicion, but doesn't really do anything beyond that.
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From what I can tell, this is how the spell works:
1 Player: I cast Infernal Healing
2 DM: It will make you evil
3 Player: Okay then I'm evil now
4 DM: No, you can't be evil.
5 Player: Then I can't cast the spell?
6 DM: You can cast the spell
7 Player: It won't make me evil?
8 goto 2
No. It go.
1 Player: I cast Infernal Healing
2 GM: That spell don't exist.
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Or in meta.. Cure Light Wounds is one of THE signature spells for divine casters. Infernal Healing and Celestial Healing represent the limits as to how much Paizo will allow arcane casters to steal this niche of divine casters.
And Bards, Witches, spiritualists, alchemists and Occultists.
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We'd also need rules on how much blood (how many drops) each kind of devil has.
I suspect this may have something to do with why no price is given.
Third level wizard can summon lemures, right? So you summon one, bleed it, and craft a wand with the blood (the crafting components are consumed when the process of creating a wand starts), then let the lemure return to hell 50 drops of blood lighter.
So devil blood is basically free. By contrast doing this sort of thing with a celestial creature (not that you'd want a wand of celestial healing) seems pretty evil.
Arguably "Summon" spells don't work, since everything goes poof when the duration ends.
I was thinking more like a low level party fights a couple of lemures, collects even a few pints of blood, which they can then sell for 12.5gp/drop to completely blow away any WBL constraints.
Have you ever checked how fast blood rot? There is a reason why we bleed out animals after killing them.
And low level adventurers finding non summoned lemures fo fight? Maybe in the Worlwound area, but that isn't a common occurrence.
Have you ever checked how fast blood rot? There is a reason why we bleed out animals after killing them.
And low level adventurers finding non summoned lemures fo fight? Maybe in the Worlwound area, but that isn't a common occurrence.
Why would they need to do that?
Do you expect the low level adventures to go and mine iron and forge their own armor too?They go to the shop and buy an spell pouch. Within the spell pouch there is an ever-expanding supply of any material component that doesn't cost gold. It includes, among other things, blood from angels, pieces of dragons of every color (for those who want to polymorph into them) and licorice root for haste, even if your campaign is in the artic, where licorice never grows.
It also replenish itself overnight. Even if you enter in a dungeon at lvl 5, and don't go out of it until lvl 10, and you cast haste in every single combat, you never run out of licorice root. Why would you run out of devil blood?
Would basic summoning work though? Or would the blood and anything else extracted go POOF once the Lemure was killed/banished/spell expired?I figure it's like virtual particles in quantum mechanics, as long as the temporary thing does something which has an effect before it ceases to exist, then it doesn't matter that it only existed for a limited amount of time, the effect still happened.
So if you can summon the lemure, get 50 drops of blood, then start the wand creation process (remember the wand creation rules say "Material components are consumed when work begins"), before the spell expires, you're good. Might be tough to do in 18 seconds, but a higher level wizard (or like a summoner whose summons last minutes) could manage it.
Way easier to do if the poor guy in the outsourced factory that builds every wand so they are available for the PC in the shops, is forced to take Eschew Materials in adition to Craft Wands.
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From what I can tell, this is how the spell works:
1 Player: I cast Infernal Healing
2 DM: It will make you evil
3 Player: Okay then I'm evil now
4 DM: No, you can't be evil.
5 Player: Then I can't cast the spell?
6 DM: You can cast the spell
7 Player: It won't make me evil?
8 goto 2No. It go.
1 Player: I cast Infernal Healing
2 GM: That spell don't exist.
That is the better solution; I agree.
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Way easier to do if the poor guy in the outsourced factory that builds every wand so they are available for the PC in the shops, is forced to take Eschew Materials in adition to Craft Wands.
That does depend on whether devil blood is inexpensive enough to qualify for eschew materials. The earlier example, assuming the primary demand for devil blood is wandcrafting, explains why it should be essentially free, so eschew materials should work though.
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Yup. Of course if it's that lucrative to harvest devils, you're bound to have an oversupply and a market glut, therefore driving the price to near zero, and....wait...
Same stuff happens with diamonds for resurrection. Only 5000gp diamonds are worth it. That means those diamonds are in higher demand, and thus aren't worth 5000, but more.
Diamonds are destroyed when you use them. Which in turn, means they are scarcier, and are worth more. So, over time, the 5000gp diamond becomes increasingly smaller and with less carats, but the price is still constant, 5000gp.
The logic deduction from that, is that the spell doesn't need a certain number of carats, only a certain market value.
So if you want to ressurect a team mate, your cleric only need to buy a diamond from another party member, and pay 5000gp for it. That becomes that diamond market value, and makes it usable for the spell. No matter how worthless was before that moment of dire needs. Maybe it was worth only 50gp, but in that moment, it become a very needed commodity, so the price rose strongly.
As a bonus, then the party member can buy that cleric a napkin for 5000gp, so the cleric gets his money back, and the ressurection has costed the party a 50gp bad diamond.
Pathfinder market doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? :)
Arise, thread!
It may not be entirely optimal, but Celestial Healing strikes me as a better choice than Infernal Healing when cast as part of Greater Bloodrage at level 11. The poor duration instead becomes the duration of your bloodrage, and the healing functions regardless of the damage you take.
I wonder if people would argue that an Evil bloodrager that casts Celestial Healing as part of Greater Bloodrage will eventually be corrupted to Good *snerk*
That is assuming that a fight is going to last for long enough for both this to matter and this to beat the duration of Infernal Healing.
Also, Rules As Written, Extend Spell will also work on Infernal Healing (and the Greater version thereof), thereby beating the duration of Extended Celestial Healing until both casters get to 20th level (unless the one with Celestial Healing has some other duration boost that can be stacked with Extend Spell(*)).
(*)For instance, Lasting Goodness of Magaambyan Arcanist seems to qualify, although you still have to get to at least level 10 (started as Wizard) or 11 (started as Magaambyan Initiate Arcanist) to break even.
* * * * * * * *
I wish they had run with the original concept of Infernal Healing to make a story out of it, like the reason it is [Evil] is that not only does it draw upon Infernal power (should also be [Lawful]), but it also causes wounds to close up with noticeably Fiendish flesh. This would also explain the original lack of a corresponding Celestial Healing, because Good Outsiders and other Celestial residents wouldn't want you to grow Celestial flesh, since that would run the risk of causing mortals to be taken over with Celestial flesh without necessarily gaining any moral benefit and with some risk of the opposite; Devils and Asmodeus (and other Evil Outsiders and deities, if they could get their hands on this technology) would have no such qualms, so they developed it and the Celestials didn't.
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"about ethical grey areas and about good people willing to do bad things in order to get the job daone,
that's exactly why you would want these rules for then. If there's no risk for alignment shifts then there's no grey.
I would honestly recommend dropping alignment entirely from intrigue games, because "detect evil" and the like makes it too easy for the players to form ideas about who is and isn't trustworthy.
Last time I checked my copy of Pathfinder Unchained was a hardbound book, so is part of the core rules as assumpions and has rules for "subjective alignment".
But almost all games use fewer than "all of the rules printed in hardback books" just as a logistical matter.
Thing is... as Ultimate Intrigue goes into, the detect alignment spells are not only insanely easy to fool but are also not always accurate. As you detect as your current motive(if you have a strong aligned motive) and not always as your actual alignment.
Thus, making for some interesting options in an intrigue game.
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For both spells, I strongly think the intention is that it has a material cost equal to the holy water/unholy water. Really needs an FAQ regarding spells with both a non-listed cost item and a listed cost item for material components.I believe this is how such things are meant to be and should be enforced. Just because a spell entry fails to enter a price (even if under 1 gp.) does not mean a Material Component has no value. Otherwise, everyone will just say that the potion of bull's strength material component for (Tenser's) transformation has no cost and try and rule they can pull them from Spell Component Pouches freely.
As for whether devil or angel blood should have a cost (or more importantly, whether that cost is 1 gp. or more) is up for debate however, unless the next rulebook comes out with those items on an equipment list.
I think if the thing does have a listed price elsewhere - standard or magic equipment lists, for example - then it's clearly intended that price applies for using it as a component.
The thing with Infernal Healing is that devil's blood is nowhere given a price, but people are arguing it should be treated as having one anyway. The argument that the dose of unholy water should cost 25gp is much stronger, though it's still possible that a dose is less than a flask.
Note that the rule for spell component pouches is different than for Eschew Materials - "except for those components that have a specific cost" vs "with a material component costing 1 gp or less". For the pouch, price doesn't matter as long as it's specified. Even a component costing a single copper won't be found in the pouch.
It's very important to remember in Pathfinder that material components only serve two purposes.
1) To balance the power of a spell by giving it a cost.2) To be pure fluff, to give the spell a thematic element to tie things together.
If it isn't 1, then it is 2. That's why, even though a material component could realistically cost 1cp or more it can be found in a component pouch. Because it's not supposed to matter.
If they didn't list the price(or if the item isn't a specific item that has a cost elsewhere), then they aren't trying to balance through cost. It's just fluff. This is also why you have a piece of every humanoid in every pouch.
Horror Adventures didn't clarify anything. It gave a new rule FOR HORROR GAMES that is no more official or standard than are the new fear rules it introduced.
Context is important.
Thing is... as Ultimate Intrigue goes into, the detect alignment spells are not only insanely easy to fool but are also not always accurate. As you detect as your current motive(if you have a strong aligned motive) and not always as your actual alignment.
Thus, making for some interesting options in an intrigue game.
Oh, old school style. Very interesting.
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Horror Adventures didn't clarify anything. It gave a new rule FOR HORROR GAMES that is no more official or standard than are the new fear rules it introduced.
Context is important.
To you maybe, but to plenty of others, like me, it was a clarification and affirmation that yes, casting evil spells is an evil act.
It's no more innately optional than the section from the same book stating that torture is evil.
Exactly, though it is interesting that the language is different. It may just be to cover the argument that you can pull infinite 1 sp items out of a pouch and then sell them.
Note that the rule for spell component pouches is different than for Eschew Materials - "except for those components that have a specific cost" vs "with a material component costing 1 gp or less". For the pouch, price doesn't matter as long as it's specified. Even a component costing a single copper won't be found in the pouch.It's very important to remember in Pathfinder that material components only serve two purposes.
1) To balance the power of a spell by giving it a cost.
2) To be pure fluff, to give the spell a thematic element to tie things together.If it isn't 1, then it is 2. That's why, even though a material component could realistically cost 1cp or more it can be found in a component pouch. Because it's not supposed to matter.
If they didn't list the price(or if the item isn't a specific item that has a cost elsewhere), then they aren't trying to balance through cost. It's just fluff. This is also why you have a piece of every humanoid in every pouch.
I feel that's the case. It's just because they need to make a fail safe for GMs harrased by dumb players trying to find pleasure "Breaking the game" by exploiting the non-sense flaws in the system.
Kind of how they had to change the Cleave wording to avoid the Bag of Rats trick. Old 3.0 Cleave was perfectly OK, when people used it as intended. Only was "broken" when people started to carry a bag full of rats to whirlwind them and gain 200 attacks.A drop of blood of any monster can't cost gold, by the book. Because even if it's only 1 silver piece, you have 15.000+ gold per creature. Players would chase down those monsters for profit and the WBL would break into pieces.
The material component in Infernal healing is just fluff. The spell works with Eschew Materials, can be ignored as long as your spell pouch isn't sundered or stolen, and doesn't need any balance, besides the obvious fact that it's an evil spell which will corrupt you, except in PFS. I have only seen it used in one campaign, Way of the Wicked, and in PFS. The fact that you detect Evil for 10 rounds isn't really relevant. The fact that it's [Evil], is as relevant as with Animate Dead or any other [Evil] spell. Unless you are willing to play an evil character, it's not a spell you can cast, much less en masse.
But I feel that poking against the material component in this particular spell, while turning a blind eye with every other material component in the game, is pretty incoherent. If the GM feels that the spell is not balanced, or whatever, just ban it.
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Horror Adventures didn't clarify anything. It gave a new rule FOR HORROR GAMES that is no more official or standard than are the new fear rules it introduced.
Context is important.
Had to dig pretty deep for this... evil spells are evil actions. Not optional(unless you are a GM). The evil spells side bar is clarification. It's also in part a suggestion. And it adds a little new.
Old SKR post from before the PDT user existed...
Horror Adventures didn't clarify anything. It gave a new rule FOR HORROR GAMES that is no more official or standard than are the new fear rules it introduced.
Context is important.
Had to dig pretty deep for this... evil spells are evil actions. Not optional(unless you are a GM). The evil spells side bar is clarification. It's also in part a suggestion. And it adds a little new.
Old SKR post from before the PDT user existed...
Eschew Materials means you don't need to kill a baby or even find a baby's corpse, as neither act has a specified price of 1gp or higher. :)
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Eschew Materials means you don't need to kill a baby or even find a baby's corpse, as neither act has a specified price of 1gp or higher. :)Horror Adventures didn't clarify anything. It gave a new rule FOR HORROR GAMES that is no more official or standard than are the new fear rules it introduced.
Context is important.
Had to dig pretty deep for this... evil spells are evil actions. Not optional(unless you are a GM). The evil spells side bar is clarification. It's also in part a suggestion. And it adds a little new.
Old SKR post from before the PDT user existed...
"Negligible cost" and "priceless" are two very different things :3
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No listed cost is no cost at all. ;)
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"Negligible cost" and "priceless" are two very different things :3
I think in context with the PFS component costs, priceless and negligible DO seem to be being interpreted as the same thing.
Personally, I don't like the spell component pouches or the eschew materials feat. I think they take away from the roleplaying experience. I understand the point is simplicity, but I'd much rather have the players keep track of materials than just give them a freebie pass to all things in small quanities. Neglible items would still be pretty close to weightless, so there isn't really an issue if the player has stocked materials for the next 200 castings of each of their spells.
Doesn't really seem different from requiring archers to keep track of arrows. Always kinda wondered why there isn't a cheap non-magical item, or feat, which gives PCs unlimited arrows from their quiver, since the spell materials seem to function in the same way.
No listed cost is no cost at all. ;)
Ahhhhhhhh! the sweet sweet taste of unintended consequences *slurp*. ^^
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Indeed. And they should make fighters keep track of their whetstones, and oil for their armor. Plus, all adventurers should keep track of their spare boot laces, because everyone knows what a pain it is when your bootlaces snap in the middle of combat!
And yet, there are item costs listed for Whetstones and oil. And for arrows and all sorts of minor things. If you think it's okay to give the fighter a free pass on lesser gear, then I guess I don't see the issue with spell component pouches.
Seems like there should be a feat for Eschew Lesser Gear or Eschew Ammunition, since we've got a feat for free spell materials.
Kinda like keeping track of character weight. I'm a fan of that mechanic, but I understand that lots of GMs don't bother with it.
No listed cost is no cost at all. ;)Ahhhhhhhh! the sweet sweet taste of unintended consequences *slurp*. ^^No listed cost is definitely "No specific cost", so it goes in the pouch.
Not murdered babies though, they wouldn't fit.
yea I know, but the babies line was actually pretty close to my line of thought.
Just imagine all the crap that have to able to fit into that pouch.
(400 x 1 x 1) + .75(300x1x1) = 400 + 225 = 625gp? That can't be right. Where'd I mess up?Minimal Caster Level is 11 and also the 300 is the 75% cost reduction, you dont reduce that further.
(400 x 1 x 11) + (300 x 1 x 11)= 7700 (+200 for the masterwork staff)
So its about 7900 gold to buy and 3950 to craft.
Staff rules:
Minimum caster level is 8All spells at same CL
Can reduce costs by increasing charges
The following staves have a spell using 5 charges: Staff Of Life, Staff Of The Planes, Staff Of The Freed Man, Gravedigger's Spade, and Spark Staff. No staff lists more charges (at least as far as I have found).
So:
1st spell: Craft for 400 * 1 (SL) * 8 (CL) / 5 (charge) = 640
2nd spell: Craft for 300 * 1 (SL) * 8 (CL) / 5 (charge) = 480
A minimum usable & rechargeable staff CL8 of celestial healing and magic missile could cost as little as 1120 gp. [Price is double.] You need to spend 5 days to get back a use of a spell.
This is less than double your initial number. :-)
If you make the 2nd spell at one charge per, then it becomes:
1st spell: Craft for 400 * 1 (SL) * 8 (CL) / 5 (charge) = 640
2nd spell: Craft for 300 * 1 (SL) * 8 (CL) / 1 (charge) = 2400
totaling 3040 gp. [Price is double.]
This is because you order the spells by level only, not by charger or by material component extras, so you can order them favorably.
I have no idea where you are coming up with a need for masterworking the staff, or how you came up with the number 200 gp.
/cevah