Am I reading Celestial healing right?


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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/celestial-healing

That's the d20 link to the spell.

Why does it take a 20th level caster of this spell to equal the output of Infernal healing?

Why is celestial magic worse at healing then diabolic magic?

Was this simply an error in presentation? As written, if you stick this in a wand, you get ONE HIT POINT back.

Please tell me the duration is a typo.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

It is a very peculiar alteration, particularly since Infernal Healing can only compete with CLW for efficiency in certain situations.

I would definitely houserule it to be 1 minute duration at any table I ran for. It is in all other ways the same as Infernal Healing and given that Celestials are MUCH BETTER HEALERS it makes no sense their version would be less powerful.


Maybe it's a lesson that evil tempts you with everything up front and good things happen to those who wait.


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Das Bier wrote:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/celestial-healing

That's the d20 link to the spell.

Why does it take a 20th level caster of this spell to equal the output of Infernal healing?

Why is celestial magic worse at healing then diabolic magic?

Was this simply an error in presentation? As written, if you stick this in a wand, you get ONE HIT POINT back.

Please tell me the duration is a typo.

It's running as intended. As Infernal Healing is designed as corruptive spell, it's temptation is the early advantage.

Celestial Healing is a similar breaking of the covenant that separates the arcane from the divine, but since it does not corrupt the caster, it does not work as effectively as Infernal Healing.


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Celestial healing also works on all damage, infernal healing doesn't affect damage from 'good' spells or effects, good-aligned weapons, or even silver weapons.

Also, being that infernal healing is [evil] that might restrict its use for most PCs or some classes.

Third, there are ways to increase your caster level with good spells or healing spells and those would effect celestial healing, whereas infernal healing will always only be 1 minute regardless of the power of the caster.

While I'm not sure that necessarily balances things in your mind, since each of those situations are dependent on the campaign and party makeup, it is something to take into account.


For most gamers the casting time of infernal healing isn't an issue since they do it on downtime between combats.

Celestial Healing would also take a massive amount of caster level boost to get it even close to Infernal Healing's output.


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Nah, doesn't balance things at all. It's patently ridiculous. Making a blatantly inferior healing spell for your faithful to use is just dumb. I see the inability to heal wounds caused by X as a side-effect of using evil magic for healing.

Celestial Healing should basically be a mirror image without a penalty. It's just...wrong to see a spell like that.


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LOL Well of course a spell that has no effect at 1st level is working as intended... You didn't expect it to actually DO anything did you? I mean, only evil could figured out how to make a healing spell worth taking and good was stuck offering a trap option like this. ;)


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Das Bier wrote:
Nah, doesn't balance things at all. It's patently ridiculous. Making a blatantly inferior healing spell for your faithful to use is just dumb.

Or maybe the spell is the result of mortal wizard's research into trying to come up with a good alternative to infernal healing, and this was the best effort so far.

Or in meta.. Cure Light Wounds is one of THE signature spells for divine casters. Infernal Healing and Celestial Healing represent the limits as to how much Paizo will allow arcane casters to steal this niche of divine casters.


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Maybe it was supposed to be 4 rounds + (1 round per 2 levels) or something and it got mangled during editing.

As is, POTIONS of Cure Moderate Wounds are more cost-effective than wands of Celestial healing.


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Except the only limit Celestial Healing puts is...the floor. Since a duration of 1/2 levels means a default level 1 wand heals NO damage.

:P It's INSANE. WHo designed the spell? Feh.


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Doesn't really explain why one is so much worse than the other. Alignment be damned, my good sorcerer is going to pick the one that actually has some meaningful results. It just makes more sense for him.

Nevermind the oddness of a "good" spell that runs on the blood of angels.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


Or in meta.. Cure Light Wounds is one of THE signature spells for divine casters. Infernal Healing and Celestial Healing represent the limits as to how much Paizo will allow arcane casters to steal this niche of divine casters.

Better to not print anything than things like celestial healing (assuming it was not an editing mistake or something), but well pages have to be filled.


swoosh wrote:

Doesn't really explain why one is so much worse than the other. Alignment be damned, my good sorcerer is going to pick the one that actually has some meaningful results. It just makes more sense for him.

Nevermind the oddness of a "good" spell that runs on the blood of angels.

Not any more strange than an "evil" spell that runs on the blood of infernals. It's the Principle of Sympathy.

Using a unicorn horn to empower desecration effects on the other hand is the Principle of Corruption.


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fast healing is Slooooooow. In the same time your infernal healing is giving you 10 hp back, you could suck 55 HP out of a CLW wand. Sure, per HP it is better, but only if you have unlimited time and care about 75 gp.

it's not abusable in the slightest because the duration is fixed. It can't even be used offensively.

It's just a fantastically stupid and inefficient spell. How did it even see print in that form?


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swoosh wrote:
Alignment be damned, my good sorcerer is going to pick the one that actually has some meaningful results.

Yeah, an infernal wand gives 20 times as much healing. No matter how good you are, it's hard to ignore that.

Even people who refuse infernal healing on principle are better off with cure wounds potions or UMD to use cure wands.


is it a frist lvl spell in the new player's book ? 10 points healing with holy water ?


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go to the link in the first post, John.


ok got it


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
Nah, doesn't balance things at all. It's patently ridiculous. Making a blatantly inferior healing spell for your faithful to use is just dumb.

Or maybe the spell is the result of mortal wizard's research into trying to come up with a good alternative to infernal healing, and this was the best effort so far.

Or in meta.. Cure Light Wounds is one of THE signature spells for divine casters. Infernal Healing and Celestial Healing represent the limits as to how much Paizo will allow arcane casters to steal this niche of divine casters.

To be honest, restoring hit points are the least of what divine casters can do. Condition removal is MUCH more important, such as Remove Disease/Curse, Neutralize Poison, and Restoration. Pretty much only clerics can do all that. Arcane casters should be able to chip in a little, particularly since cleric/oracle players would like to be able to use their spells for something besides healing. Stuff like this is why nobody ever wants to play clerics.

And Celestial Healing is a ridiculously bad spell.


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Repeat after me.


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I prefer that other viewpoint, that Good is Damn Good, because Evil doesn't pull punches, and you have to be better because Evil (and Neutral) cheat.

Good is so good, that Evil and Neutral don't win UNLESS they cheat!


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Arise, thread!

It may not be entirely optimal, but Celestial Healing strikes me as a better choice than Infernal Healing when cast as part of Greater Bloodrage at level 11. The poor duration instead becomes the duration of your bloodrage, and the healing functions regardless of the damage you take.

I wonder if people would argue that an Evil bloodrager that casts Celestial Healing as part of Greater Bloodrage will eventually be corrupted to Good *snerk*


swoosh wrote:

Doesn't really explain why one is so much worse than the other. Alignment be damned, my good sorcerer is going to pick the one that actually has some meaningful results. It just makes more sense for him.

Nevermind the oddness of a "good" spell that runs on the blood of angels.

A good sorcerer with the celestial bloodline HAS something that works better already.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
cloakable wrote:

Arise, thread!

It may not be entirely optimal, but Celestial Healing strikes me as a better choice than Infernal Healing when cast as part of Greater Bloodrage at level 11. The poor duration instead becomes the duration of your bloodrage, and the healing functions regardless of the damage you take.

I wonder if people would argue that an Evil bloodrager that casts Celestial Healing as part of Greater Bloodrage will eventually be corrupted to Good *snerk*

They would, which is why most evil casters wouldn't cast it.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swoosh wrote:

Doesn't really explain why one is so much worse than the other. Alignment be damned, my good sorcerer is going to pick the one that actually has some meaningful results. It just makes more sense for him.

Nevermind the oddness of a "good" spell that runs on the blood of angels.

A good sorcerer with the celestial bloodline HAS something that works better already.

They never specified bloodline, only alignment.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swoosh wrote:

Doesn't really explain why one is so much worse than the other. Alignment be damned, my good sorcerer is going to pick the one that actually has some meaningful results. It just makes more sense for him.

Nevermind the oddness of a "good" spell that runs on the blood of angels.

A good sorcerer with the celestial bloodline HAS something that works better already.
They never specified bloodline, only alignment.

UMD and a brace of the appropriate wands then. Arcane casters (and we're leaving out bards for this) are not meant to be healers. It's not their niche. And it's not really kosher for them to take the cleric's niche either.


it's not really a cleric's niche either though (nevermind that niche protection isn't really worth much anyways).

Nevermind that no one in this thread said anything about 'stealing' the cleric's niche, so I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up.


What would be a good price for a staff of celestial healing? Gives you your caster level, and you could put another level 1 spell in it to make it easy to recharge. I'm thinking staff of celestial healing and magic missile or something like that.

Quote:
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.

(400 x 1 x 1) + .75(300x1x1) = 400 + 225 = 625gp? That can't be right. Where'd I mess up?

Or if you really want to be able to use the spell as an arcane caster, take Magical Lineage Celestial Healing and Extend it. Now it lasts 2 rounds/2 levels, and is just as good as Infernal.


swoosh wrote:

it's not really a cleric's niche either though (nevermind that niche protection isn't really worth much anyways).

Nevermind that no one in this thread said anything about 'stealing' the cleric's niche, so I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up.

Because that's how a conversation works. You add things.


Tarantula wrote:


(400 x 1 x 1) + .75(300x1x1) = 400 + 225 = 625gp? That can't be right. Where'd I mess up?

Minimal Caster Level is 11 and also the 300 is the 75% cost reduction, you dont reduce that further.

(400 x 1 x 11) + (300 x 1 x 11)= 7700 (+200 for the masterwork staff)

So its about 7900 gold to buy and 3950 to craft.


Why is the minimum caster level 11? You must be 11th level to have create staff, but you don't need to create it at caster level 11 do you?


It's not; minimum CL of a staff is 8.

So crafting a staff of extended celestial healing would cost
(400 * 2 * 8) + 200 = 6600GP, and would take 14 days to craft.

The spell would give fast healing 1 for eight rounds if the user is less than level 8, and would give 2 rounds / 2 levels if the user is over that.

With ten charges, that would mean a total of 80hp before the staff needs recharging, which could be done in downtime by any class with a level 2 spell slot and access to celestial healing.

Can't spam it like a stick of CLW, but it scales up unlike the wand (level 10 user gets 100hp out of it, 12 gets 120, etc).

You'll never get all the HP you can get out of a single wand vs. 10 staff charges, but one is still reusable and scales up, the other needs you to pay another 750gp for a new one. Staff becomes the cheaper option after eight wands.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The problem with the staff... is that it's still outdone by the ubiquitous wand of cure light wounds. Yes, wands will run out, but it won't require a week of downtime in between days of use and won't force you to give up your level 2 slots (which could be used to actually heal, thus supplementing the wand). You get the average 2200 hp (for eight wands, the equivalent price) healed right off the bat, and the odds that you will need even that much is rare.


Das Bier wrote:

fast healing is Slooooooow. In the same time your infernal healing is giving you 10 hp back, you could suck 55 HP out of a CLW wand. Sure, per HP it is better, but only if you have unlimited time and care about 75 gp.

it's not abusable in the slightest because the duration is fixed. It can't even be used offensively.

It's just a fantastically stupid and inefficient spell. How did it even see print in that form?

Presumably in answer to a demand for a mirror to Infernal Healing, however given the story reasons for the original spell, it would be rather pointless to make it as good as that spell, given that Infernal Healing was created as a corrupting spell to tempt wizards.

Shadow Lodge

It also reads that it gives the recipient an aura of good (assuming due to the good outsider [subtype] blood), which can actually be kinda nice.


Magaambyan Arcanists are one way to use Celestial Healing well enough to actually outdo Infernal Healing. Lasting Goodness equals +(Magaambyan Arcanist level) turns to the duration of all Good spells. Virtuous Spells gives an additional +1 CL and there are several other CL boosts.

I prefer Path of Glory for healing over time, but Celestial Healing can be a good spell. It's rather situational, though, and generally not worth using. Still, it is situationally useful, and it's far less likely to have negative social repercussions than Infernal Healing would.

Having a bunch of people shift one step toward hostile because you were spotted using evil magic would certainly be one potential reason to avoid Infernal Healing.


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An alchemist 16 with Eternal Potion discovery can acquire permanent fast healing 1 from a Celestial Healing potion. The spell isn't inferior to Infernal Healing here.

Scarab Sages

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Linea Lirondottir wrote:


Having a bunch of people shift one step toward hostile because you were spotted using evil magic would certainly be one potential reason to avoid Infernal Healing.

Yeah because "Raybans of Evil/Magic Detection" are a popular fashion in most major cities. /eyeroll


Or if they designed the spell with the intention of "evil" being used would shift ur alignment meaning that it might have intended for baddies to only use, that might explain why it's better and fit the theme of corruption like how people thought/still think or play.
Granted they've already stated that spells with evil doesn't do that, but before a lot of people thought that and was hands off for a lot of classes/players.

Silver Crusade

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Um, no, the opposite, they have stated that it does, using Evil spells does indeed start shifting your alignment to Evil. They clarified that in Horror Adventures.

Scarab Sages

For both spells, I strongly think the intention is that it has a material cost equal to the holy water/unholy water. Really needs an FAQ regarding spells with both a non-listed cost item and a listed cost item for material components.

And as a special note, Holy water from the CRB is specifically mentioned being sold at a discounted price at temples to good deities. Unholy water and holy water purchased from non-good temples, would be bought as per the cost of spellcasting servivces, make them 50gp each (25gp for 1st level spell and 25gp of material components). So a wand of infernal healing, for example, should cost quite a bit more than a want of cure light wounds, since you are adding the 50gp per charge to the casting cost.

As for the Good vs Evil argument, remember that good outsider is much more willing to share their blood to heal others, while an evil creature is unlikely to be willing to do so. So the materials required for celestial healing should be cheaper, either because they are bought from a good temple, or because a good outsider is taking pity on the wounded party member.


Unfortunately because it has no listed price, the blood of angles and demons is free and apparently falls from the sky like rain.


Rysky wrote:
Um, no, the opposite, they have stated that it does, using Evil spells does indeed start shifting your alignment to Evil. They clarified that in Horror Adventures.

Indeed but I think it's PFS play that rules that casting spells with evil descriptors don't count towards shifting ur alignment even though for regular play, that is what happens thanks to horror adventures. Have PFS changed their stance on that?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Only if you were playing under the assumption that aligned spells weren't aligned acts beforehand.

And noo, they don't track spell induced alignment changes in PFS due to to the hassle and no guarantee of playing at the same table/GM.

But no one was talking about PFS.


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Aren't the "[Foo] Adventures" books largely about optional rules for campaigns for which they are thematically appropriate? Themes about corruption, degradation, and rot are very appropriate to a horror campaign, so the "evil spells drag you to evil" thing is something you'd want to use in a horror game. But an Intrigue-based game might be more about ethical grey areas and about good people willing to do bad things in order to get the job done, so you wouldn't just want to spring "you're evil now" in that sort of game.

So I don't think the text in Horror Adventures is a rule for general purpose pathfinder, just like how one shouldn't generally expect to be able to use Occult skill unlocks to mimic the effects of spells that predict the future or read auras unless that's thematically appropriate for the campaign.


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From what I can tell, this is how the spell works:

1 Player: I cast Infernal Healing
2 DM: It will make you evil
3 Player: Okay then I'm evil now
4 DM: No, you can't be evil.
5 Player: Then I can't cast the spell?
6 DM: You can cast the spell
7 Player: It won't make me evil?
8 goto 2


Cavall wrote:
Unfortunately because it has no listed price, the blood of angles and demons is free and apparently falls from the sky like rain.

I would like an official price for a drop of devil blood. I can start my devil harvesting business and make millions!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The hardcover Rulebook line, the Adventures, the Ultimates, etc, are the core rules and assumptions of the game unless stated otherwise.

By your reasoning all rules are optional, which they are, depending on your GM.

"about ethical grey areas and about good people willing to do bad things in order to get the job daone,

that's exactly why you would want these rules for then. If there's no risk for alignment shifts then there's no grey.


Rysky wrote:

"about ethical grey areas and about good people willing to do bad things in order to get the job daone,

that's exactly why you would want these rules for then. If there's no risk for alignment shifts then there's no grey.

I would honestly recommend dropping alignment entirely from intrigue games, because "detect evil" and the like makes it too easy for the players to form ideas about who is and isn't trustworthy.

Last time I checked my copy of Pathfinder Unchained was a hardbound book, so is part of the core rules as assumpions and has rules for "subjective alignment".

But almost all games use fewer than "all of the rules printed in hardback books" just as a logistical matter.

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