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@Robert Little - I'd like to see something that supports PCs being at stations providing things to do in combat. FrEx: Weapons station is attack rolls, engineering station is repair rolls and rolls to provide a bonus to attack or defense (via shielding) by rerouting power, comms station for diplomacy or intimidation or bluff, etc.
That would be fine. I'm just wary of a system that gives ships an AC, a bunch of hit points, and has ship based weapons that do damage inline with what PC's do ("I swing my sword at the ship and hit AC 28." "Ok, you hit roll damage."..."The ship fires one laser cannon at the fighter and one at your ship. It hits both times, rolling 8d6 damage for each.")
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I would have to imagine that spaceships are made of materials with absurdly high hardness....
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I would have to imagine that spaceships are made of materials with absurdly high hardness....
I wouldn't expect it to be higher than 20 (adamantine). However, I would expect that the amount of damage a guy with a sword could do with a sword should be trivial to a battleship ( a few strategic cuts could probably disable a fighter, but on something the scale of a cruiser, it should be pointless to try).
Developer
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Will there be an homage to the works of E.E. 'Doc' Smith? (Lensman, Skylark)
I genuinely can't say, but I will note there is no bigger fan of Doc Smith than me. And I'd add Galaxy Primes, Spacehounds of IPC, and Substace explorers/Encounters to that list. Though, for me, Lensman is the best Smith, by far.
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Giants space hamsters, well we don't know much about Castrovel's moon;)
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First of, GREAT IDEA!
Now, what I was pondering: AI is already used in the Pathfinder lore and Starfinder preview, of course, but I'm wondering how prominently this will be featured? Would an AI Player Character be feasible?
Furthermore, themes like Cyberspace and Virtual Reality are very inspiring to me. It would be fun to see Starfinder enable campains that feature those. Cyberpunkish, techno-hacker, neuromancer-like stories. Do you think Starfinder will enable those too?
I'm actually far more interested in what YOU ALL are interested in as your favorite space-magic groove.
There are sooo many sources of inspiration for me, when it comes to SciFi (and sci-fi-ish) settings. A few that come to mind, in alphabetical order:
- Asimov's work, of course
- Battlestar Galactica
- Blade Runner
- Defiance
- Doctor Who
- Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
- Dragonstar RPG
- Firefly
- Mass Effect
- Jack Vance's Demon Prince novels
- Red Dwarf
- Star Trek, of course
- Star Wars, of course
- Tanith Lee's Birthgrave novels
- The Fifth Element
- Transformers (More than meets the eye)
- Ulysses 31 (To show the gods can still mess with you in outer space :P)
- Van Vogt's work
- William Gibson' Neuromancer
- Zelazny's Lord of Light
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Are you looking to continue the trend of set capabilities as classesWhile I suspect I know the answers to some of those questions, we could still change our minds, and we're definitely not talking about those kinds of specific details yet.
Do you have a recommended reading/watching list to help people get into the space-magic groove?I'm actually far more interested in what YOU ALL are interested in as your favorite space-magic groove.
spelljammer, specifically shadow of the Spider Moon type stuff.
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I'm actually far more interested in what YOU ALL are interested in as your favorite space-magic groove.
Dune.(Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu, Ixians...)
I hope we see some Form of Damage gradient system (Similar to Firepower /Toughness in Alternity or MegaDamage in Rifts). Tracking damage to vessels with thousands of HP dealing hundreds of damage per attack just doesnt seem feasible. Much easier to simply state something like "Vehicular weapons deal double damage against any target Size large or smaller and Space Craft weapons deal 10x damage vs targets size Huge or smaller." (For example).
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Yerdiss, I'm almost insulted you don't have When Gravity Fails on that list. =p
Anyway, Owen question: If I were to take my Space Hoopty and fly it through the space where Golarion should be, would everything be okay, or would my trajectory be affected by gravity as if the planet were still there?
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I hope we see some Form of Damage gradient system (Similar to Firepower /Toughness in Alternity or MegaDamage in Rifts). Tracking damage to vessels with thousands of HP dealing hundreds of damage per attack just doesnt seem feasible. Much easier to simply state something like "Vehicular weapons deal double damage against any target Size large or smaller and Space Craft weapons deal 10x damage vs targets size Huge or smaller." (For example).
I would lower the threshold for death due to massive damage.
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I hope we see some Form of Damage gradient system (Similar to Firepower /Toughness in Alternity or MegaDamage in Rifts). Tracking damage to vessels with thousands of HP dealing hundreds of damage per attack just doesnt seem feasible. Much easier to simply state something like "Vehicular weapons deal double damage against any target Size large or smaller and Space Craft weapons deal 10x damage vs targets size Huge or smaller." (For example).I would lower the threshold for death due to massive damage.
"You took a direct hit from a starship-scale rail gun. I don't care what the rules say about rolling dice, you're dead meat, man."
"But I've got 129 HP--"
"The barrel opening on that rail gun was the size of a Buick."
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"Tis only a flesh wound!"
Alternity handled that wonderfuly with the "Damage Upgrades" option.
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.
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SM*: "Okay, the deathstar sized satellite array fires all 1,212 translight sabremissiles at you. {quickly consults the polynomial roll chart from an old Dragon magazine scann'd into handy tablet and rolls 13 times}. All but 7 hit. "
Player 3: "'b-but...I have Evasion."
SM: "Ooooo-kay, you are a resleeved transhuman currently in the form of a planet. How exactly did you....evade?
Player 3: Did I say Improved Evasion?
Players 1, 2, 4, 6 and 12: [staring daggers at Player 3] Great idea for us to ride on your back...
*(Starmaster)
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I am so glad that Owen mentioned Dan Simmons, Hyperion Cantos is one of my favorite book series, especially concerning character and development.
I totally want to see something like the Shrike, the merlin sickness, the sphinx tomb, etc.
I also would like to see something like the latest Deus Ex videogame where different races or cultures have sometimes violent reaction to android/cyborg enhancement.
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I'm actually far more interested in what YOU ALL are interested in as your favorite space-magic groove.
There are sooo many sources of inspiration for me, when it comes to SciFi (and sci-fi-ish) settings. A few that come to mind, in alphabetical order:
- Asimov's work, of course
- Battlestar Galactica
- Blade Runner
- Defiance
- Doctor Who
- Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
- Dragonstar RPG
- Firefly
- Mass Effect
- Jack Vance's Demon Prince novels
- Red Dwarf
- Star Trek, of course
- Star Wars, of course
- Tanith Lee's Birthgrave novels
- The Fifth Element
- Transformers (More than meets the eye)
- Ulysses 31 (To show the gods can still mess with you in outer space :P)
- Van Vogt's work
- William Gibson' Neuromancer
- Zelazny's Lord of Light
This is a very, very good list, but you've tragically forgotten three things!
- Alien series
- Babylon 5
- Back to the Future
- Big-O
- Chobits
- Chrono Trigger
- Cowboy Bebop
- Deus Ex
- Farscape
- Final Fantasy
-
- Full Metal Alchemist
- Gatica
- Ghost Busters
- Ghost in the Shell
- Giant Space Hamsters
- Gravity Falls
- Guerran Lagan
- Gundam
- Independence Day
- Kill la Kill
- Mythic Rules *cough*
- Outlaw Star
- Star Gate
- Star Ocean
- Voltron
- X-Comm
:D
(I've almost certainly missed some. Oh well.)
EDIT and again: Added some that I'd missed. XD
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I saw mention of classes so I'm going to of course ask for confirmation that classes in general will be a part of the game.
In terms of what science fiction influenced me, regardless of what I desire out of Starfinder;
I was born in 1985 so much of my media consuption occured during the 90s, whether it was things premiering or in syndication, so of course when it comes to TV I was influenced by the great 80s franchises and even some things that were syndicating from the 70's or earlier due to the then fledgling Cartoon Network. This means titles like Thundercats, He-Man, Ninja Turtles, Thundarr the Barbarian, Herculoids, Jonny Quest, Gatchaman, Power Rangers, Transformers, Beast Wars, Dinosaucers, Galaxy Rangers, Ghostbusters, Bucky O'Hare, Gundam Wing, Tenchi Muyo, Outlaw Star, Captain Simian and the Space Monkeys, Superhuman Samurai Cyber Squad, Technoman, Robotech, Biker Mice from Mars, and Botsmaster. That's not including general superhero inspired shows and Star Trek because that influenced me later in life.
From a Movie standpoint, there are plenty of them to the point where I can't bother to list the ones that are nostalgic for me and just recount the big ones. Star Wars of course, despite not having actually watched the first trilogy all the way through until shortly before The Phantom Menace. The marketing, merchandise and lore just kind of leaked into public conciseness to the point where Darth Vader, Han Solo and light sabers were just a part of my childhood. A lot of 80s movies that kind of had science being an optimistic kid thing, like Flight of the Navigator or War Games were a staple but most of them don't crop up at the top of my mind. There's also a lot of early anime, most of which I don't remember but there was often a sense of dense computer structures and a bit of grittiness along with very shiny iPody looking things. This includes things like Patlabor, Appleseed, Ghost in the Shell, Macross Plus, and Akira. Ghostbusters, Robocop, Alien, Predator and the Terminator series were more adult when I came back to them but of course I didn't miss out on that, especially when the franchises first started to permeate into merchandise and other mediums, like Robocop vs Terminator for the Sega Genesis. Apparently ratings meant very little to my parents unless some sex was involved because I viewed a lot of horror before 1995 too.
Speaking of videogames, I don't remember too much scifi in my early videogame life. I had more endearing and fun things for the first Nintendo console. At best the Sega Genesis was being billed as somewhat more mature and extreme so I was pulling things like The Ooze and Robocop vs Terminator but nothing that really influenced my ideas of what science fiction was. It wasn't until Final Fantasy 7 that I had a solid game that had scifi elements and since then it certainly grew, but for my early game experience was mostly in the context of JRPGs like Xenogears and Parasise Eve.
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People are starting to project their hopes on this new project.
Is there a danger of people setting themselves up for disappointment?
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Yes. But that's what you get when you have humans. :D
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I doubt I'll be disappointed with the finished Starfinder. Even if they don't listen to a thing I said (towels for everyone!) I trust Sutter and Co. to put out a fun game that will surprise and delight.
I got all worked up, I'll just wipe my brow with this towel here... (they really are good for everything!)
That's why it's important to keep one handy. :-)
Getting back to the point of the thread, I do have a question.
Will the Development Team be watching the Threads on this board too get an idea of what players are looking for in the Game? What elements are generating discussion and what ones we don't seem to feel strongly about?
I only ask because the prospect no public playtest, frankly, kinda terrifies me. Most of the recent major releases have benefited hugely from them (just look at pre-playtest Vigilante and post-playtest Vigilante ).
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I think the only way I'll really get disappointed with Starfinder is if they kind of just repeat mistakes from 3.5/Pathfinder. At that point I may as well continue playing Pathfinder with 3pp scifi stuff since I already did the work of cleaning up enough rules to make it worth playing. I don't think I'll be disappointed because there has been mention of trimming the fat to make it a leaner system. In one interview the Beginner Box was mentioned as a similar goal as the bottom limit of where they'd go and honestly if the rules are streamlined anywhere between Pathfinder and it's beginner box then I'm more than happy. Also as a big fan of Owen's third party work I have supreme confidence that without being too confined by Pathfinder he'll make some supremely great crunch.
Will there be an archetype, feats and equipment that would allow me to play Space Ghost in Starfinder?
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Developer, Starfinder Team
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Yerdiss, I'm almost insulted you don't have When Gravity Fails on that list. =p
Anyway, Owen question: If I were to take my Space Hoopty and fly it through the space where Golarion should be, would everything be okay, or would my trajectory be affected by gravity as if the planet were still there?
Without getting into a game of 20 questions (i.e. I won't be answering a bunch of what ifs), there is no hint, evidence, or clue left in any form about Golarion or its new location.
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Developer, Starfinder Team
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Getting back to the point of the thread, I do have a question.
Will the Development Team be watching the Threads on this board too get an idea of what players are looking for in the Game? What elements are generating discussion and what ones we don't seem to feel strongly about?
I only ask because the prospect no public playtest, frankly, kinda terrifies me. Most of the recent major releases have benefited hugely from them (just look at pre-playtest Vigilante and post-playtest Vigilante ).
Obviously I am reading the threads, or I couldn't be commenting. :)
No public playtest is very different from no playtest. We will be putting things in front of a lot of out-of-the-office eyes, just not in front of *everyone's* eyes.
Ahh okay :-) hope that didn't come off as negative. Didn't mean it too.
Yes. But that's what you get when you have humans. :D
And the internet to provide them a voice to cry out their vain hopes and dreams to the masses. :D
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Given how many classes In Pathfinder use some Form of resource pool (Ki, Grit, Inspiration even Stamina from Unchained.) I wonder if we might see some type of Universal Resource Pool that is used for class abilities, but isn't tied to a specific class? Something like Stamina, that is built in and use able by everyone. Each class gains new ways too use it. It would make multiclassing less painful.
Will there be new conversions of the old conversions from the even older conversions of Star Frontiers races?
d20 Future has official d20 stats for Star Frontiers races.
which means they are WoTC property and can't be converted as is.
I meant if he wants to use them in Starfinder, he has a compatible source.
I think the only way I'll really get disappointed with Starfinder is if they kind of just repeat mistakes from 3.5/Pathfinder. At that point I may as well continue playing Pathfinder with 3pp scifi stuff since I already did the work of cleaning up enough rules to make it worth playing. I don't think I'll be disappointed because there has been mention of trimming the fat to make it a leaner system. In one interview the Beginner Box was mentioned as a similar goal as the bottom limit of where they'd go and honestly if the rules are streamlined anywhere between Pathfinder and it's beginner box then I'm more than happy. Also as a big fan of Owen's third party work I have supreme confidence that without being too confined by Pathfinder he'll make some supremely great crunch.
I think the only way I'll really get disappointed with Starfinder is if they kind of don't repeat the mistakes from 3.5/Pathfinder.
I've said it elsewhere; if I wanted to play not-Pathfinder, there are a LOT of systems I could choose from. I don't play Pathfinder because of the setting. I play it because of the rules.
The more "cleaning up" that is done, the less compatible with the 3.x family of rules the system will be, and the less utility it will have to me.
Frankly, if Starfinder doesn't end up a reskinned Pathfinder (and I expect it absolutely will won't), it will not be a game for me. I'm okay with equivalencies, such as how Dreamscarred's psionics is completely equivalent magic but using a different mechanical system. But if say... a bunch of things are done to change how attacks of opportunity, or combat maneuvers, or the action economy works, well, pass.
Numenara is already on my shelf if I wanted to play a modern setting that isn't Pathfinder.
Oh, and yes, I get it that different people want different things. That's why I'm posting this.
If it's different enough you might like the new game better than Numenera, no?
I mean, I take your point that you'd like a Scifi game created (pretty much) from the PF rules. But if that doesn't happen, it doesn't follow that you won't like the resultant game does it?
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If it's different enough you might like the new game better than Numenera, no?
I mean, I take your point that you'd like a Scifi game created (pretty much) from the PF rules. But if that doesn't happen, it doesn't follow that you won't like the resultant game does it?
For the sake of conversation, no. That's just not how I work. Once I've found a restaurant or two I like, that's where I go. Once I've found a meal or two I like, that's what I order. Once I've found a set of toppings I like, that's what I put on it. But again, that's me.
But another point I've made elsewhere that links in, almost-compatibility is bad (for me) in another way. There are still differences from 3.0 to 3.5 to Pathfinder that the elders in my group occasionally stumble on. I almost never think of non-lethal as subdual damage anymore (a 3.0-ism), but we still struggle to remember that silence is now a one-round casting. I get it that change was made for balance purposes, but since the vast, vast majority of spells are Standard actions and that one used to be, it's difficult to unlearn what we used to KNOW was true. Some things, like changes to Power Attack or grapple rules are easy, because they're completely different. Small changes are... painful.
In closing, some of us play Pathfinder not despite its design idiosyncrasies but because of them.
If it's different enough you might like the new game better than Numenera, no?
I mean, I take your point that you'd like a Scifi game created (pretty much) from the PF rules. But if that doesn't happen, it doesn't follow that you won't like the resultant game does it?
For the sake of conversation, no. That's just not how I work. Once I've found a restaurant or two I like, that's where I go. Once I've found a meal or two I like, that's what I order. Once I've found a set of toppings I like, that's what I put on it. But again, that's me.
But another point I've made elsewhere that links in, almost-compatibility is bad (for me) in another way. There are still differences from 3.0 to 3.5 to Pathfinder that the elders in my group occasionally stumble on. I almost never think of non-lethal as subdual damage anymore (a 3.0-ism), but we still struggle to remember that silence is now a one-round casting. I get it that change was made for balance purposes, but since the vast, vast majority of spells are Standard actions and that one used to be, it's difficult to unlearn what we used to KNOW was true. Some things, like changes to Power Attack or grapple rules are easy, because they're completely different. Small changes are... painful.
In closing, some of us play Pathfinder not despite its design idiosyncrasies but because of them.
Exactly why I want to use Pathfinder rules for just about every crazy campaign idea I get from Cavemen and Fallout to Greek Myth and Mass Effect.
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I think the only way I'll really get disappointed with Starfinder is if they kind of just repeat mistakes from 3.5/Pathfinder. At that point I may as well continue playing Pathfinder with 3pp scifi stuff since I already did the work of cleaning up enough rules to make it worth playing. I don't think I'll be disappointed because there has been mention of trimming the fat to make it a leaner system. In one interview the Beginner Box was mentioned as a similar goal as the bottom limit of where they'd go and honestly if the rules are streamlined anywhere between Pathfinder and it's beginner box then I'm more than happy. Also as a big fan of Owen's third party work I have supreme confidence that without being too confined by Pathfinder he'll make some supremely great crunch.I think the only way I'll really get disappointed with Starfinder is if they kind of don't repeat the mistakes from 3.5/Pathfinder.
I've said it elsewhere; if I wanted to play not-Pathfinder, there are a LOT of systems I could choose from. I don't play Pathfinder because of the setting. I play it because of the rules.
The more "cleaning up" that is done, the less compatible with the 3.x family of rules the system will be, and the less utility it will have to me.
Frankly, if Starfinder doesn't end up a reskinned Pathfinder (and I expect it absolutely will won't), it will not be a game for me. I'm okay with equivalencies, such as how Dreamscarred's psionics is completely equivalent magic but using a different mechanical system. But if say... a bunch of things are done to change how attacks of opportunity, or combat maneuvers, or the action economy works, well, pass.
Numenara is already on my shelf if I wanted to play a modern setting that isn't Pathfinder.
Oh, and yes, I get it that different people want different things. That's why I'm posting this.
But not much "cleaning up" has to be done for it to be considered 'cleaned up' so there isn't that much risk in it being way less convertible going that method. Lets look at the, as I understand, main problems with Pathfinder;
1) Action economy is punishing to martials.
In Pathfinder Unchained the revised action economy's only real enemy is the loss of the functionality of swift actions and the classes that rely on them, and even then I think its easy to convert and way more useful because I've noticed exactly one feat that grants something activated by a swift action that lasts for one turn. For example if you are using two weapon fighting at full BAB at level 20, when you move 30ft you lose 6 out of 7 attacks, while with the RAE you lose 2 out of 6 attacks. With classes that don't rely on swift actions to activate their abilities this becomes less of an issue and not that many pathfinder classes even lose out by conversion.
2) Magic and how it works is overtly pervasive.
As you mentioned, Ultimate Psionics is proof enough that a new magic system can work out and be convertible, but I'll go as far as saying that replacing the magic system with a new one outright ends martial/caster disparity arguments. I've seen it twice, with Psionics and Spheres of power.
3) Christmas Tree effect.
If there's any sort of automatic bonus progression baked in that ends that right there. Even then with Technology having a larger role at least you'll have the option of having a mechanical big six over a magical one so it doesn't feel too bad. Either way its an easily solved problem.
4) Too many minute rules stacking.
My theory is that there's a lot of things packed into one book here so there may be a lot of consolidation going on in the final product. This doesn't necessarily change any rules, just jam them together when they have the same game logic so that there's technically less of them. Key example is the Beginner Box and how much it actually crams into two Campaign Setting sized books. I expect that the game will still be about improvement through saving up your minor bonuses but a lot of those will probably be permanent from now on so you don't have to keep track once you write them down if the goal is to reduce it's complexity rather than the effects themselves.
5) Feats suck too often.
Some theory of consolidation applies. New game, new feats, possible to just ram some together to make it smoother. Not really that many of them, just the ones that run into rules language redundancy or trees that have no business being so long.
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I'm actually far more interested in what YOU ALL are interested in as your favorite space-magic groove.There are sooo many sources of inspiration for me, when it comes to SciFi (and sci-fi-ish) settings. A few that come to mind, in alphabetical order:
- Asimov's work, of course
- Battlestar Galactica
- Blade Runner
- Defiance
- Doctor Who
- Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
- Dragonstar RPG
- Firefly
- Mass Effect
- Jack Vance's Demon Prince novels
- Red Dwarf
- Star Trek, of course
- Star Wars, of course
- Tanith Lee's Birthgrave novels
- The Fifth Element
- Transformers (More than meets the eye)
- Ulysses 31 (To show the gods can still mess with you in outer space :P)
- Van Vogt's work
- William Gibson' Neuromancer
- Zelazny's Lord of Light
This is a very, very good list, but you've tragically forgotten three things!
...
- Alien series
- Babylon 5
- Back to the Future
- Big-O
- Chobits
- Chrono Trigger
- Cowboy Bebop
- Deus Ex
- Farscape
- Final Fantasy
- Full Metal Alchemist
- Gatica
- Ghost Busters
- Ghost in the Shell
- Giant Space Hamsters
- Gravity Falls
- Guerran Lagan
- Gundam
- Independence Day
- Kill la Kill
Don't forget...
-Enders Game-Starship Troopers (The book of course. But if you want the movie)
-Battletech
-JoJos Buzzard Adventure :D
Make sure it's the Starship Troopers from Terror Infinity. Much more applicable.