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Or just give them hardness 50, but ship based weapons ignore 50 points of hardnessWhy include in a monster like that if the game is going to tell me that I can't fight it?Who says you can't fight, and beat, a super Star destroyer, a Borg Cube, or a Death Star sized Space Whale????
Those are great challenges! You SHOULD be doing that kind of thibgs!
But you should fight that planet sized alien with your Millenium Falcon turbo blasters or your USS enterprise photon torpedoes. Not with your laser rifle, or your bare hands becsuse you have 2 monk levels
That's more or less what we are suggesting. "Ship scale" weapons having some short of rule to make them necessary to fight ship scale threats. DR\ship is a way. I don't think DR 50 will suffice, tho. A WWI tank in Pathfinder has almost 2000hp. Imagine the HP of a submarine. Or a battleship. Or a carrier. Or a Space carrier. Or a Space Battle Station. We are talking about MILLIONS of Hp. It's boring as hell to roll enough dice to deplete that. It's easier just change the scale. Otherwise, damage becomes impossible to handle. Currently a laser pistola does 1d8. Láser rifle 2d6. Láser cannon, up to 6d6. A rocket launcher, 12d6. What about a hellfire missile? A tomahawk cruise missile? What about ICBM? Or nuclear weapons? Probably the Death Star should survive *a few* nuclear weapons, just becsuse if size (not counting chsin reactions in wesk spot)
In mechwarrior, a normal rifle has just s chance to do 1point of damage vs a mech. A mech Medium Laser wipes five humans per hit. And mechs are actually small. Dropships are what we are talking about here.
Counterpoint, they have another WWI tank in that same book, but the hit points have been... modified slightly. Granted, it is a different model of tank, but I though it was still worth mentioning. And I am not advocating that they Death Star should be killable by sword swing, I just thought it was important to point to another, similar example to yours that took a different direction.
I see what your saying about planet sized structures but now that im thinking about it if it had high dr (like whatever materials its made out of) and then like 2 million hp can you really say that wouldn't work i mean if you had the lone barbarian on a star ship destroying everything in it 100 hp at a time doing 2 million would still take like days? so wouldn't you say at some point said barbarian might actually destroy the ship bot in game terms and in cinematic terms (i mean break enough stuff it should blow right?)
i suppose the ton of dice thing is problematic what if when you got to a size above colossal you started get multipliers instead of higher dice so your doing 6d6 + 20 x 5(for size)
It's actually a Tsar TankHah, there's no way that's a WW1 tank. Did you look at its dimensions? It's the size of a small building.That's more or less what we are suggesting. "Ship scale" weapons having some short of rule to make them necessary to fight ship scale threats. DR\ship is a way. I don't think DR 50 will suffice, tho. A WWI tank in Pathfinder has almost 2000hp.Or just give them hardness 50, but ship based weapons ignore 50 points of hardnessWhy include in a monster like that if the game is going to tell me that I can't fight it?Who says you can't fight, and beat, a super Star destroyer, a Borg Cube, or a Death Star sized Space Whale????
Those are great challenges! You SHOULD be doing that kind of thibgs!
But you should fight that planet sized alien with your Millenium Falcon turbo blasters or your USS enterprise photon torpedoes. Not with your laser rifle, or your bare hands becsuse you have 2 monk levels
it's gigantic, I get that, but its dimension doesn't make sense for it. Its square space is a giant block, but the vehicle is not. Especially considering its square space can be formed in any fashion, going by the book. It shouldn't be fully 60 x 40
it's gigantic, I get that, but its dimension doesn't make sense for it. Its square space is a giant block, but the vehicle is not. Especially considering its square space can be formed in any fashion, going by the book. It shouldn't be fully 60 x 40It's actually a Tsar TankHah, there's no way that's a WW1 tank. Did you look at its dimensions? It's the size of a small building.That's more or less what we are suggesting. "Ship scale" weapons having some short of rule to make them necessary to fight ship scale threats. DR\ship is a way. I don't think DR 50 will suffice, tho. A WWI tank in Pathfinder has almost 2000hp.Or just give them hardness 50, but ship based weapons ignore 50 points of hardnessWhy include in a monster like that if the game is going to tell me that I can't fight it?Who says you can't fight, and beat, a super Star destroyer, a Borg Cube, or a Death Star sized Space Whale????
Those are great challenges! You SHOULD be doing that kind of thibgs!
But you should fight that planet sized alien with your Millenium Falcon turbo blasters or your USS enterprise photon torpedoes. Not with your laser rifle, or your bare hands becsuse you have 2 monk levels
neither should a dragon honestly. I've always looked at the size/space requirements as what it takes for the creature to fight effectively. A person needs about 5 square feet minimum to effectively fight (i.e. without squeezing penalties). This is true even though no person actually fills up a 5 square feet area.
it's gigantic, I get that, but its dimension doesn't make sense for it. Its square space is a giant block, but the vehicle is not. Especially considering its square space can be formed in any fashion, going by the book. It shouldn't be fully 60 x 40
Well, the real Tsar Tank was 27 feet high. The one in Rasputin Must Die is 25. It sounds well rounded.
About filling fully the space: unless you are a bloated sumo champion wearing a big floater over a space suit, I doubt you fully fill a 5' x 5' square yourself. And I don't think I'll be able to find a horse who is 10' x 10' wide.
A horse needs probably that much space to move around and fight and turn "in place", and a Tsar Tank will probably need that much space to turn around and move, which means he can't share other creatures squares in that space unless he overruns them.
Counterpoint, they have another WWI tank in that same book, but the hit points have been......
Animated beings / constructs don't follow the same rules than vehicles, though.
A colossal animated object such as an animated ship has roughly 150hp, while a real colossal ship has 1200.
I see what your saying about planet sized structures but now that im thinking about it if it had high dr (like whatever materials its made out of) and then like 2 million hp can you really say that wouldn't work i mean if you had the lone barbarian on a star ship destroying everything in it 100 hp at a time doing 2 million would still take like days? so wouldn't you say at some point said barbarian might actually destroy the ship bot in game terms and in cinematic terms (i mean break enough stuff it should blow right?)
i suppose the ton of dice thing is problematic what if when you got to a size above colossal you started get multipliers instead of higher dice so your doing 6d6 + 20 x 5(for size)
2 million hp at 100hp per round would last 33 hours. Which means 33 barbarians could do it in one hour.
But yes, the real problem is how unwieldly the damage roll would be. If a laser rifle does like 2d6, how much damage would do a colossal sized wave motion gun, or a nuclear blast?. Or Starkiller base?
I'm going to be daring, and assume we don't think individual characters should be able to withstand such kind of damage, and that probably ships of Superstar Destroyer Executor class should be able to resist with ease the sustained fire from a laser pistol (or a composite longbow adjusted to STR 20, for that matter)
What's the point of having stats for guns that do 300d6 vs individual characters? What's the point of having ships with 100000hp and DR 250\- which are impossible to be destroyed with your 1d8 laser pistol, shooting each other 400d6 photon torpedoes (+2, if you have Weapon Specialization Photon torpedoes)?
The result is going to be the same: a PC would need to load up with "big scale" weapons to bypass "big scale DR", and any "big scale" weapon will instantly destroy a PC (and sometimes an entire city full of PC). The difference between having the 2 scales having different rules (like MechWarrior does with individual, mech, and naval combat) or having just the same scale, but with incredibly high numbers, is that you'll need to roll 400d6 several times to destroy that Klingon Warbird with your ship photon torpedoes, instead of doing like 4d6 of Starship Damage to a Starship with 50 Starship HP.
it's gigantic, I get that, but its dimension doesn't make sense for it. Its square space is a giant block, but the vehicle is not. Especially considering its square space can be formed in any fashion, going by the book. It shouldn't be fully 60 x 40Well, the real Tsar Tank was 27 feet high. The one in Rasputin Must Die is 25. It sounds well rounded.
About filling fully the space: unless you are a bloated sumo champion wearing a big floater over a space suit, I doubt you fully fill a 5' x 5' square yourself. And I don't think I'll be able to find a horse who is 10' x 10' wide.
A horse needs probably that much space to move around and fight and turn "in place", and a Tsar Tank will probably need that much space to turn around and move, which means he can't share other creatures squares in that space unless he overruns them.
My point is that vehicles have different rules about square spaces.
I see what your saying about planet sized structures but now that im thinking about it if it had high dr (like whatever materials its made out of) and then like 2 million hp can you really say that wouldn't work i mean if you had the lone barbarian on a star ship destroying everything in it 100 hp at a time doing 2 million would still take like days? so wouldn't you say at some point said barbarian might actually destroy the ship bot in game terms and in cinematic terms (i mean break enough stuff it should blow right?)
i suppose the ton of dice thing is problematic what if when you got to a size above colossal you started get multipliers instead of higher dice so your doing 6d6 + 20 x 5(for size)2 million hp at 100hp per round would last 33 hours. Which means 33 barbarians could do it in one hour.
But yes, the real problem is how unwieldly the damage roll would be. If a laser rifle does like 2d6, how much damage would do a colossal sized wave motion gun, or a nuclear blast?. Or Starkiller base?
I'm going to be daring, and assume we don't think individual characters should be able to withstand such kind of damage, and that probably ships of Superstar Destroyer Executor class should be able to resist with ease the sustained fire from a laser pistol (or a composite longbow adjusted to STR 20, for that matter)What's the point of having stats for guns that do 300d6 vs individual characters? What's the point of having ships with 100000hp and DR 250\- which are impossible to be destroyed with your 1d8 laser pistol, shooting each other 400d6 photon torpedoes (+2, if you have Weapon Specialization Photon torpedoes)?
The result is going to be the same: a PC would need to load up with "big scale" weapons to bypass "big...
i see what your saying but i think the point would be for the in between sizes like ok death star one individual could not touch it but a star destroyer could perecieveably and then maybe a few smaller ships could handle that and then a x -wing could handle one of those (frigates maybe) and then would a pc be able to handle the x wing (granted ignore the whole were not catching it thing maybe i should of used tanks bu you get the point. ) so i guess it would be to set a scale for the in between sizes. also i think you missed where i said for larger sizes use a multiplier instead of bigger dice so 6d6+20 after you roll and add up then multiply 5 (or x whatever) so your not rolling as much and the damage would be more consistent
Will there be robo-eidolons?
I haven't yet read this whole thread, so maybe this has been addressed or maybe it hasn't, but I'd like to ask it anyway:
What fantasy do you hope the Powered Armor will fill?
Are we talking something big, slow, and heavy like the powered armor of Fallout, something slimmer and more versatile like the Iron Man armors, or maybe even something as simple as the armor worn in Mass Effect?
I'm personally hoping for something along the lines of the Iron Man suits, powered armor that can be worn by more than just the guy with Heavy Armor proficiency and a dumped DEX stat.
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Are we talking something big, slow, and heavy like the powered armor of Fallout, something slimmer and more versatile like the Iron Man armors, or maybe even something as simple as the armor worn in Mass Effect?
My answerto that is "yes"
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Will Eoxians be playable?
During the GenCon Starfinder panel, Erik Mona said their goal was to have PC playable stats in every bestiary entries. He also acknowledged they might not be able to make that goal, but it exists.
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Wait, so your saying they want to try to make every monster playable?
Is the goal for starships/space combat to use a system that scales up from personal combat (ala the vehicle system in Ultimate Combat) or to have a separate system that PCs can only indirectly affect (for example, PC's directly attacking a vessel as opposed to fighting vessel on vessel). My preference would be a separate system as the scaling never seems to work right, although that might affect backwards compatiblility for folks wanting to have space cruiser vs outer dragon battles.
Mecha? Golemecha? Flumphs in power armor?
I'd love to see a mecha sourcebook for Starfinder.
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Wait, so your saying they want to try to make every monster playable?
And you just know that guy will want to play a space whale.
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Another question for the writers:
Since multiarmed/limbed characters are part of the core game and even in the splash page art, will the multiweapon fighting rules be revisited and clarified for the new weapon options?
The art has a four armed race with 2 hands on a rifle of some type, a sword or dagger in another hand and what appears to be a spell or psionic power effect in the 4th.
Will the multiweapon fighting rules get expanded to cover the use of 2 handed weapons or weapons that require 2 hands in combination with other existing setups?
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Wait, so your saying they want to try to make every monster playable?And you just know that guy will want to play a space whale.
I think I shall call it ground.
Another question for the writers:
Since multiarmed/limbed characters are part of the core game and even in the splash page art, will the multiweapon fighting rules be revisited and clarified for the new weapon options?
The art has a four armed race with 2 hands on a rifle of some type, a sword or dagger in another hand and what appears to be a spell or psionic power effect in the 4th.
Will the multiweapon fighting rules get expanded to cover the use of 2 handed weapons or weapons that require 2 hands in combination with other existing setups?
We can infer how that works to some extent.
Metweska is a Kasatha using two Chainsaws with TWF, so we know TWF with two handed weapons is possible, and presumably so is mixing a two-handed weapon with a light or one-handed weapon.
She also has 12 STR and gets a +1 damage bonus to the chainsaw she wields with her primary hand and her 1st off hand, but not with the other one. So we can infer that a two handed weapon wielded using only off-hands gets only 1/2 your STR bonus to damage rolls.
Yeah, I definitely think that since the kasatha are going to be in at the ground floor, they're definitely going to have to tackle a more comprehensive set of rules for multiweapon fighting...and perhaps even other races will be able to get in on the fun with cybernetic arms added on. Actually, given that they've said they plan to have more nonhumanoid options for possibly player races, I think that they'll have to put some definite thought into other issues related to playing nonhumanoid races...I certainly hope so, at least!
Yeah, we need to be General Grievous! And hopefully such new rules will be back-ported over to Pathfinder. Since it sorely needs them too!
We can infer how that works to some extent.
We can infer a lot yes. The point is to have it in print in the rules to avoid all the zillions of posts asking for clarifications that we currently have.
Kills 2 birds with one stone.
Wait, so your saying they want to try to make every monster playable?
That is what they said, with the caveat that it is a big task and may not make it
And you just know that guy will want to play a space whale.
The example given was playing a floating orb without arms or legs, and how to make that work. I'm hoping they're also considering the impact of playing much bigger/smaller creatures.
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I'm hoping the rules approach is different enough that we don't need a lot of convoluted TWF feat blah blab blah stuff.
Just focus on actions like in 5e and give the Kasatha a racial trait of "one additional attack as a bonus action at -2 to hit and damage, using weapon in off-hand." Bam.
Really hoping SF simplifies the crap out of PF rules structures. This is a chance to make something new and fresh, not rehash the same overwrought 3.5e system.
Will there be Land/Air/Water vehicles? And will they use the same Hex grid combat/movement system as space vehicles?
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Will Eoxians be playable?During the GenCon Starfinder panel, Erik Mona said their goal was to have PC playable stats in every bestiary entries. He also acknowledged they might not be able to make that goal, but it exists.
Erik was saying he wants PC playable stats in every *bestiary*, not every bestiary *entry*. As a general design goal, we feel like a science fantasy game benefits from having a lot of playable races, and thus we want to lean toward including that info where feasible. But we are absolutely *not* promising that every CR 18 space whale will be a playable race. :P
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Erik was saying he wants PC playable stats in every *bestiary*, not every bestiary *entry*. As a general design goal, we feel like a science fantasy game benefits from having a lot of playable races, and thus we want to lean toward including that info where feasible. But we are absolutely *not* promising that every CR 18 space whale will be a playable race. :PWill Eoxians be playable?During the GenCon Starfinder panel, Erik Mona said their goal was to have PC playable stats in every bestiary entries. He also acknowledged they might not be able to make that goal, but it exists.
Oooooo...
So a new playable race(s) with each book? That sounds pretty neat, makes it feel like an adventurer could come from literally anywhere, very cool
While I don't require Thri-kreen specifically, the general idea of a humanoid insect is what I'm asking for (Thri-kreen just happen to best match the picture).I wasn't saying thri-kreen would be inappropriate. I was trying to see if there is something already out there that is close enough to thri-kreen to be to your liking. Or, what could be modified or home-brewed to be sufficiently thri-kreeny. [I think the formians published so far are too powerful to be a PC, but I could be wrong.]They are humanoid insects. How is that NOT sci-fi material?All I ask is that you make some form of Thri-Kreen available to play, and that you don't kill of the almighty Tengu race.I'm curious: What is it about the thri-kreen that you find particularly intriguing? What would be sufficient to have a race boe "some form of Thri-Kreen"? Is it the non-humanoidness? The culture? The four arms? Some combination of factors?
FWIW, Kobold Press released the Tosculi for their Southlands/Midgard setting. If there's enough interest for it, maybe Marc & Co could update it (and some other Kobold races) for Starfinder?
Erik was saying he wants PC playable stats in every *bestiary*, not every bestiary *entry*. As a general design goal, we feel like a science fantasy game benefits from having a lot of playable races, and thus we want to lean toward including that info where feasible. But we are absolutely *not* promising that every CR 18 space whale will be a playable race. :PWill Eoxians be playable?During the GenCon Starfinder panel, Erik Mona said their goal was to have PC playable stats in every bestiary entries. He also acknowledged they might not be able to make that goal, but it exists.
Thanks for clarifying.
FWIW, Kobold Press released the Tosculi for their Southlands/Midgard setting. If there's enough interest for it, maybe Marc & Co could update it (and some other Kobold races) for Starfinder?While I don't require Thri-kreen specifically, the general idea of a humanoid insect is what I'm asking for (Thri-kreen just happen to best match the picture).I wasn't saying thri-kreen would be inappropriate. I was trying to see if there is something already out there that is close enough to thri-kreen to be to your liking. Or, what could be modified or home-brewed to be sufficiently thri-kreeny. [I think the formians published so far are too powerful to be a PC, but I could be wrong.]They are humanoid insects. How is that NOT sci-fi material?All I ask is that you make some form of Thri-Kreen available to play, and that you don't kill of the almighty Tengu race.I'm curious: What is it about the thri-kreen that you find particularly intriguing? What would be sufficient to have a race boe "some form of Thri-Kreen"? Is it the non-humanoidness? The culture? The four arms? Some combination of factors?
Given the talk of bestiary compatibility, the stats as is might work for Starfinder.
Although personally I am hoping for race stats for some formian caste.
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I actually really want a hacking subsystem. I would love to play the hacker, cracking into security cameras and things à la Shadowrun, feeding information to my teammates, concealing our presence from security forces and misdirecting our enemies.
But I can also see how that wouldn't appeal to some people.
Will there be robo-eidolons?
Speaking of Shadowrun, I too would like some form of hacking/slicing system. Yeah, all the stuff MFF mentions would be cool, but to be honest, I just want a PC hacker that rigs a Tachikoma "eidelon." (possible Ghost in the Shell spoilers)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Erik was saying he wants PC playable stats in every *bestiary*, not every bestiary *entry*. As a general design goal, we feel like a science fantasy game benefits from having a lot of playable races, and thus we want to lean toward including that info where feasible. But we are absolutely *not* promising that every CR 18 space whale will be a playable race. :PWill Eoxians be playable?During the GenCon Starfinder panel, Erik Mona said their goal was to have PC playable stats in every bestiary entries. He also acknowledged they might not be able to make that goal, but it exists.
James, does that mean playable PC race stats in every starfinder bestiary book, or does it also include the bestiary section of each AP book? One new PC playable alien each month would be great!
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Assuming cybernetics/grafts/magical golemlimbs are a thing in the game and that they can add limbs to characters, will their costs/drawbacks be significant enough to balance them with races that have inherent multiple usable limbs?
It would seem to water down race choices if you could take a say 12 point humanoid race and then just use 'cash' to give yourself multiple limbs effectively getting racial options with currency.
Not saying it shouldn't be possible but it should be balanced against races who's RP structure may lead to less overall racial options due to their multi limbed nature to start.
Playable Flumphs?
Oh I don't know if has been asked yet, but how well will the nearby galactic civilizations be detailed? Will members of such civilizations be playable?
A lot of Golarion's races are only arguably native. Humans existed on the ship in Numeria, elves have been off planet once so who knows where they really came from. Gnomes are from the details. A ton of things ate just offshoots of humans mixed with an outsider of some sort. Plus the planet is a relatively late creation in the first place so the diversity can be mostly due to its nature. That said most planets with FTL probably look like a bar in Star Wars.
Hey Owen, James, and/or Rob
I assume there will be some form of starship design rules in the Starfinder book. How detailed are they going to be? Will there be multiple types of engines, and electronic systems you can install in your ship?
What about FTL travel? are you going the more warp gate route or are ships going to have FTL drives separate from their main engines?
Also which way are you guys leaning with wealth? Is it going to be GP like system (like standard Pathfinder)? or a wealth bonus like system like d20 modern?
Is Starfinder going to have Alignment?
lastly are Starfinder characters going to have the same reliance on stat boosting items as Pathfinder characters?
looking foreword to Starfinder.
Are you intending/considering to have different means of FTL travel for different races/empires?
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A lot of Golarion's races are only arguably native. Humans existed on the ship in Numeria, elves have been off planet once so who knows where they really came from. Gnomes are from the details. A ton of things ate just offshoots of humans mixed with an outsider of some sort. Plus the planet is a relatively late creation in the first place so the diversity can be mostly due to its nature. That said most planets with FTL probably look like a bar in Star Wars.
Humans existed on Golarion long before The Rain of Stars, so while there may have been humans of some sort on that ship, humans were also around to see it happen (this being almost 1,000 years after Earthfall, before which the human empires of Thassilon and Azlant were extant and thriving). Elves though, thems be aliens for sure.
A lot of Golarion's races are only arguably native. Humans existed on the ship in Numeria, elves have been off planet once so who knows where they really came from. Gnomes are from the details. A ton of things ate just offshoots of humans mixed with an outsider of some sort. Plus the planet is a relatively late creation in the first place so the diversity can be mostly due to its nature. That said most planets with FTL probably look like a bar in Star Wars.Humans existed on Golarion long before The Rain of Stars, so while there may have been humans of some sort on that ship, humans were also around to see it happen (this being almost 1,000 years after Earthfall, before which the human empires of Thassilon and Azlant were extant and thriving). Elves though, thems be aliens for sure.
Humans exist on at least 4 planets spread throughout 3 galaxies. Even without Golarion there's still humans on Akiton. Same with lizardfolk.
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Humans exist on at least 4 planets spread throughout 3 galaxies. Even without Golarion there's still humans on Akiton. Same with lizardfolk.A lot of Golarion's races are only arguably native. Humans existed on the ship in Numeria, elves have been off planet once so who knows where they really came from. Gnomes are from the details. A ton of things ate just offshoots of humans mixed with an outsider of some sort. Plus the planet is a relatively late creation in the first place so the diversity can be mostly due to its nature. That said most planets with FTL probably look like a bar in Star Wars.Humans existed on Golarion long before The Rain of Stars, so while there may have been humans of some sort on that ship, humans were also around to see it happen (this being almost 1,000 years after Earthfall, before which the human empires of Thassilon and Azlant were extant and thriving). Elves though, thems be aliens for sure.
My point was that just because they were found elsewhere as well doesn't mean they aren't native, especially considering the lore of Golarion says humans were essentially awakened by the Aboleth. It's a common Fantasy/Sci-Fi trope after all, even if it makes no evolutionary sense.
My point was that just because they were found elsewhere as well doesn't mean they aren't native, especially considering the lore of Golarion says humans were essentially awakened by the Aboleth. It's a common Fantasy/Sci-Fi trope after all, even if it makes no evolutionary sense.Humans exist on at least 4 planets spread throughout 3 galaxies. Even without Golarion there's still humans on Akiton. Same with lizardfolk.A lot of Golarion's races are only arguably native. Humans existed on the ship in Numeria, elves have been off planet once so who knows where they really came from. Gnomes are from the details. A ton of things ate just offshoots of humans mixed with an outsider of some sort. Plus the planet is a relatively late creation in the first place so the diversity can be mostly due to its nature. That said most planets with FTL probably look like a bar in Star Wars.Humans existed on Golarion long before The Rain of Stars, so while there may have been humans of some sort on that ship, humans were also around to see it happen (this being almost 1,000 years after Earthfall, before which the human empires of Thassilon and Azlant were extant and thriving). Elves though, thems be aliens for sure.
Well my original argument is that humans are arguably native. The biggest evidence is mostly that Golarion itself is a creation that came after a number of gods were doing things so its entirely possible that humans, or human predecessors showed up from somewhere else. Them being around other galaxies in a more advanced state makes this possible as well.
In my scifi Pathfinder campaign I do explore the concept of The Cipher which is the mystery as to why humans are all over the place and why almost everything is humanoid including deities with inspiration from Stargate, Star Trek and such. Its entirely possible that humans are really weird creations given that between them and Dragons they seem to be in too many places and be able to breed with too many things to really make sense.
The game hasn't been made yet, and nothing has been mentioned of that in what HAS been worked on, so I'ma guess no.