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My theory, based on absolutely nothing but my intuition, is that Starfinder is Paizo's way of dipping a toe into the water of a Pathfinder 2nd edition.
One advantage of not doing any open playtest for this system, and of releasing this as a stand-alone game (as opposed to a supplement for PF), is that the designers can make every change to PF rules they might be contemplating in a 2nd edition, and then sit back and see how the Paizo fanbase reacts to each one. If with outrage and fury, no harm done to PF itself and lesson learned; but if embraced, the new rule or improvement will be sure to show up in the first PF 2.0 beta playtest.
If I'm right, I think it's a canny solution to the problem about potentially splitting the fan-base by changing the ruleset too drastically. With Starfinder, they can change anything they wish to, create exactly the kind of system the designers think best, and then see what the reaction is.
Maybe Starfinder is a huge hit and embraced by all: wonderful for everyone! But if it tanks, Pathfinder itself is still alive and well, with some valuable lessons of what not to do, mechanically, with a 2nd edition.
The fact that it's been mentioned as "backwards compatible" sort of implies some kind of progression in the ruleset.
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I don't think so. I think of this as more alike to what Dragonstar was for D+D, with the addition including the basic Pathfinder engine to make it standalone.
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I don't think so. I think of this as more alike to what Dragonstar was for D+D, with the addition including the basic Pathfinder engine to make it standalone.
Same here. I think they realized that something like Pathfinder was just an awkward fit to capture a lot of space fantasy/science fiction tropes, and that a more significant retool of the system was needed than a simple "Adventures" line hardcover.
I am seeing a lot of people though seeing this as some sort of stealth 2.0. I suspect a lot of those people may come away being disappointed if they think a lot of the Pathfinder "problems" will be resolved in this book.
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It also seems to be a case of Paizo buying an outfit called Aethera which may have been working on a space-based setting for the Pathfinder society.
Our little baby Paizo has grown up and become Apple. They've bought someone else's work to brand as their own.
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Yeah, near as I can tell, Aethera is a completely separate campaign setting whose creators are working with Paizo to make it compatible with Starfinder rules. Starfinder is going to be based in Golarion's solar system as detailed in Distant Worlds.
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I've been seeing a bit of speculation that Starfinder IS Pathfinder 2.0. Which isn't all that far from left field if you think about it. Starfinder is supposed to be OGL and pretty much different but pathfinder convertable, which I assume means it still has skill ranks per level, BAB, six ability scores and so on, but it is very possible that the pieces between the familiar things are the drastically different or at least simpler and more streamlined from Pathfinder. This means that we can get the same results with cleaner rules when it comes with basic interactions. If that's the case then you could use Starfinder to play Pathfinder by porting in Pathfinder classes. It wouldn't be any more different from shoving in things from Pathfinder Unchained and other subsystems.
Personally I think it's the other way around. I feel like Pathfinder Unchained, Iron Gods and Technology Guide were tests to see if they could get away with a whole new RPG line.
Here's some exerpts from the Technology Guide product thread.
All this cool stuff is supposed to fit within 64 pages...? I feel like we need twice that amount.Fitting every possible science fiction element into one book was NEVER the goal or intent of this book, no more than fitting every possible spell and magic item element into the Core Rulebook was that book's goal.
This book is about setting foundations on which we can expand. We'll be introducing new elements of science fiction tropes going forward in the six volumes of Iron Gods, for example—for items alone, we'll be detailing about 40 additional technological items beyond those in the Tech Guide.
Beyond that, we have no plans on continuing to do sci-fi stuff... but if folks love the Technology Guide and Iron Gods enough and there's demand, we may well do more books or products in these themes in the future.
The Technology Guide is, in other words, a start... not a start, middle, and an end.
(NOTE: That does mean that certain significant elements of science fiction are not even really going to be touched upon in this book—vehicle combat, including things like hover bikes, would be a good example of something we don't cover in the book, mostly because that trope doesn't play a role in Iron Gods.)
Every single volume of Iron Gods adds 1–2 more pages of technological items, or more, to the mix, along with lots of other technological dangers and monsters and traps and more. If folks really like the rules, who knows where we can go from there?
I wouldn't call "Technology Guide" a testing tool though. That would have been books like "Dungeons of Golarion" or "Inner Sea Bestiary," where we first started testing technological devices and monsters and the like. The Technology Guide may only be 64 pages... but it's a full-on book that we wouldn't have done (and likewise, Iron Gods is a 6 part technology-based campaign we wouldn't have done) if those previous testing tools hadn't proven there was an interest.
What can we possibly do to influence demand for it? I already have two copies of the Technology Guide.Nope.Yeah. It did indeed sell pretty well. Yay! :-)Did we unlock "Ultimate Technology?"
SM
Buy Iron Gods and Numeria: Land of Fallen Stars.
Put up reviews of those products where you indicate how much you like the books and would like to see more Technology stuff.
Get your friends and their friends and their friends to do the same! :-)
We have our orders. No surrender and no retreat.
SM
There is proof they bought them? I'm curious.
Proof? No. But this Kickstarter for Aethera seems pretty damming evidence for it's prior existence as a separate company.
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It's still a separate company, as far as I know. As are Starjammer and Legendary Planet, two other 3PP properties. Why do you think Aethera is owned by Paizo now? Why do you think Aethera is Starfinder?
It's still a separate company, as far as I know. As are Starjammer and Legendary Planet, two other 3PP properties. Why do you think Aethera is owned by Paizo now? Why do you think Aethera is Starfinder?
Did you read the link and check the page all the way through? Go ahead, I'll wait.
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Which link? The "Aethera Campaign Setting" link or the "early discussions" link?
It's still a separate company, as far as I know. As are Starjammer and Legendary Planet, two other 3PP properties. Why do you think Aethera is owned by Paizo now? Why do you think Aethera is Starfinder?Did you read the link and check the page all the way through? Go ahead, I'll wait.
I don't see whatever evidence you think I should after reading all the way down on the Campaign tab or skim of the update tab. Please clarify what you mean?
EDIT: for clarification, I read the Kickstarter page you linked, not all of he links in the thread linked by Joanna.
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Yeah, what Tacticslion said. Plus, the available information about Aethera doesn't sound like the same setting Paizo is pitching with Starfinder.
I'm sure that Aethera will now be Starfinder RPG-compatible rather than Pathfinder RPG-compatible, but they don't look like the same product. d20pfrd's Starjammer (formerly Starfinder) is in the same boat.
You didn't happen to notice that this was funded last year, and that one of the first items you see on the Kickstarter list is Starfinder! But there hasn't been anything new on it since the product was placed in the Paizo store.
I found a link to the Aetherea RPG page and I think what you see here is a good hint of what's to come in Starfinder.
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The "Starfinder!" update is for backers only, but one of them posted the info here:
From the Kickstarter:
You may have heard it already, but if not, Paizo announced their Starfinder space fantasy RPG that is compatible with Pathfinder! Both myself and Aethera co-creator Jacob Thomas were in attendance at Paizocon and I have had a wonderful series of conversations prior to the announcement with Stephen Radney-McFarland and Wes Schneider regarding Aethera and Starfinder! We are very early in talks but we are working together to ensure that Aethera is the best product representative of our original design intention, and that we leverage our expertise to help make Starfinder excellent as well. Paizo is committed to utilizing the best authors in the industry and nobody knows Pathfinder in space better than the Aethera team!
There will be more exciting announcements to come in the future as we know and can share more. But now that we can publicly speak about this exciting new development there will be much more to discuss!
Right now this doesn't change anything for the Kickstarter, however we will keep you all up to date as that changes. We're still editing and developing as we speak and hosting games at Origin and GenCon!
More to come! Keep your eyes on the stars!
Sounds like exactly what Starjammer is doing: positioning themselves to be Starfinder-compatible rather than Pathfinder-compatible, as advertised. As I said, I've read the Aethera Campaign Setting, and it doesn't sound like the same setting as Starfinder at all: a binary star system, a century-long war, a different list of core races, etc.
EDIT: Aethera also ran an introductory adventure in its setting at PaizoCon and is running games in slots at GenCon. They delivered their first backer rewards in April and announced a new adventure at PaizoCon. They haven't shut down.
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Umm.. it is the first item on that link because it is the newest blog post by them. With Kickstarter.. newest is on top.. so yeah.. they made an excited post about Starfinder... probably about converting it to the system... I'm sure if Legendary Games makes a post titled Starfinder on the Legendary Planet page, it will be on the top too....
You didn't happen to notice that this was funded last year, and that one of the first items you see on the Kickstarter list is Starfinder! But there hasn't been anything new on it since the product was placed in the Paizo store.
I found a link to the Aetherea RPG page and I think what you see here is a good hint of what's to come in Starfinder.
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I don't think Starfinder is Pathfinder 2.0, but it's inevitable that if there's any rules updates changes the designer team has been noodling around, and they make the cut into the final Starfinder product, that it will be a good test ground to see how the change works and is received prior to using it for an eventual down the road Pathfinder 2.0.
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It seems to me that a lot of products have been speculated as Paizo experimenting with a Pathfinder 2.0. I mean, this is a lot of the same stuff that people said about Pathfinder Unchained.
Ultimately, it's partly true - a 2nd edition of Pathfinder probably will draw from lessons learned from Starfinder...but also from everything that came before it, including Pathfinder Unchained, the Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Campaign, the adventure paths, the companion line, and so on.
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What's more, they also did an entire revision of the first D20 Star Wars that made non-trivial changes to whole chapters. I'd argue that Pathfinder is right on schedule for a tune-up and a revision of the rules would be better than a full rewrite. If anybody can pull it off it would be the people who've done it at least once. I don't really see any change to core happening anytime soon.
I'm happy to finally getting some real space rules that will be supported. This isn't going to replace Spelljammer but it will make Fading Suns and other campaigns possible.
SM
With one or two third party supplements you can already do Spelljammers mechanically. Just say that the airship can go into space and put an elf gate up there. Then people started riding baby solar dragons and fighting dragonrider wars in space with lasers as hair metal music wails in the background.
Gamma World 4th ed had a lot of ideas and mechanics that made it into 3rd ed D&D, so it wouldn't surprise me.
A few months ago James said he had some secret project he had been wanting to do for a long time aka years. I am sure this is what he was referring to.
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A few months ago James said he had some secret project he had been wanting to do for a long time aka years. I am sure this is what he was referring to.
Quite the contrary - it seems to me like SF implies there won't be (resources for) a PF 2.0 anytime soon.
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I mentioned this elsewhere, but although there's lots of patterns to speculate on I think the truth of whats going on in Starfinder is that it was something that was a long time coming.
Most of the speculation I've seen on Starfinder reflects a lot of D&D history and express desires for more of things from the past of the system but there's a lot going on in the context of just Pathfinder's history. Numeria and the Mana Wastes has been there from almost the beginning and way back when they released Distant Worlds, the guide for Golarion's solar system. Space and science fiction has been at the edge of their minds for a while which is kind of evident when you think about how much of a pulp aesthetic Pathfinder has in regards to their fluff.
To step back from Paizo a bit, there's a long thread of third party material that goes into 'Spacefinder' too. Some are common across systems or migrated from d20 Modern/Future, like Amethyst, but after the Reign of Winter AP the amount boosted to a huge degree and even more so when Iron Gods and the Technology Guide came out, as if it were taken as official permission to start having more science fiction in Pathinder, especially since its now on the PRD. I noticed because I'm a big fan of the subject and have been running a space Pathfinder for months, but I've also been paying attention to their top ten downloads from other companies list that shows up in their weekly newsletter and there's been things that break into the list that lend support to playing Pathfinder out of genre. There are tons of technologist classes around that are really popular, there's a series of d20 Modern-like classes that have been around for a while but last year compiled into one book that's been going well, there's a companion for the Technology Guide, Dreamscarred Press has been playtesting a book that combines the technology guide with their psionics books to make for psionic mecha and other things as well as refluffing their Akashic classes as cyborgs.
Most recently a kickstarter project called Aethera launched last year out of nowhere. They were asking for $50,000, a huge amount for a third party supplement, and while I pledge, because I'm into that kind of thing, I had serious doubts that they would fund. However it wound up getting through even though halfway they were nowhere near their goal.
Starfinder is probably just the last step in a rising trend in that's been in progress for years. If Starfinder didn't delay them I count 5 projects that were supposed to come out this year specifically for science fiction in Pathfinder.
I agree with most of Malwing's post above, and I wanted to point out something from it.
Most of the speculation I've seen on Starfinder reflects a lot of D&D history
This right here is something I'm surprised no one has really gone on at length about in this thread.
(If they have, I apologize. I don't know how I missed it.)
As someone (Malwing, by coincidence) mentioned in another thread,
I did a search on the thread for the phrase 'One Piece' and I'm disappointed.
... though, truth be told, I'm less "disappointed" and more "surprised."
I'm not a major D&D historian by any means, and I certainly wasn't around from the beginning, but living through Paizo and Pathfinder's maneuvers, here, feels an aaawwwwful lot like reading about Dungeons & Dragons, in a way.
In that, you had:
- '74: Original -> this is the original
- '77: Basic and Advanced -> basic introductory version; and actual full game
- '81: Basic with revisions -> kept tone of the original, but further from the current
- '83: Basic with more revisions -> refinement in presentation, but also expansion in scope up to immortals
- '85: Unearthed Arcana -> variant rules intended for 2E (but not implemented)
- '89: Advanced with revisions -> the second edition of the game, refinement in presentation, but also expansion in scope up to immortals
- '91: Rules Cyclopedia -> slimmed compilation of the full rules
- '00: 3rd -> new edition
With Pathfinder, you have:
- '08: pre-PF -> equivalent of Original
- '09: PF Proper -> equivalent of Advanced
- '10: APG (new classes plus archetypes) -> equivalent of expansions in Advanced
- '11: Beginner Box -> equivalent of the Basic
- '12: ARG -> equivalent of expansions in Advanced
- '13: Mythic -> equivalent of Immortals
- '14: ACG and Monster Codex -> again, more expansions
- '15: Unchained -> equivalent of Unearthed Arcana
- '17: Starfinder -> equivalent to second edition?
One of the things to note is that these development cycles are not "the same" - rather, I see some broad parallels with the fact that in D&D the game was always more or less "that game you play, but with revisions to make it better" (akin to, "3.5 Lives Thrives!") with an eventual reformatting of the extremely large number of rules and kind of bloated and scattered system into a new format that is easier to read and more comprehensibly compressed (with rules changes to reflect the designers' intents and interests at the time).
This is extremely similar to how I see Pathfinder developing, as a system.
To be clear, the kind of "organic" growth and reinterpretation of the past can be extremely frustrating for us in the internet age, but the basic idea of it is mimicking one of the longest-running editions there ever actually was, and doing it with a chassis that I like as a basic framework.
I'm curious how this compares to the history of D&D's Campaign Settings and proliferation.
What do you guys think about this? Does this make sense as a form of revision/second edition in light of that sort of stuff? What about the Campaign Setting things?
EDIT:
Also, this thread might be helpful, here? I dunno - I haven't perused the thing beyond welcoming back a guy to the game. :D
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It also seems to be a case of Paizo buying an outfit called Aethera which may have been working on a space-based setting for the Pathfinder society.
Our little baby Paizo has grown up and become Apple. They've bought someone else's work to brand as their own.
Paizo is not purchasing Aethera at this time. If they are in negotiations with Robert Brookes for that IP, it is being played very close to the vest. However, as one of the freelancers working on the Aethera project, it is my understanding that at this time there is no designs for Robert to sell or Paizo to purchase.
Edited to add There is also NO collaboration going on between Paizo and Aethera to make the two games compatible beyond Aethera working within the OGL and using Pathfinder rules as can be used. Aethera's rules are written and the space flight rules were written by Thursty, who is a freelance writer for Paizo at times. Aethera was conceived by Robert Brookes, who is a Paizo freelance writer at times, and written in part by numerous freelance writers, who also freelance write for Paizo at times. But there is NO joint work going on between Paizo and Aethera at this time.
While that might change, I do not see that happening. Paizo has a team who will be writing Starfinder, but it is very much in the conception stages if the panel at PaizoCon was any indication. Aethera is in its editing process now, which means it is almost ready to roll to the publisher, rules are written. These are two separate and unrelated products.
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Hey there folks! Aethera creator and longtime Paizo freelancer Robert Brookes here. How many of you have seen Alien 3? Do you folks remember that part in the cafeteria where the Warden calls all the prisoners together and shouts "Rumor Control!" Then goes about dispensing with rumors?
Well
Rumor Control!
Aethera started out as and continues to be a separate 3rd-party campaign setting. We're at the tail end of editing and you can follow along with all sorts of updates at our Facebook page.
That said, right now we're in a position where we could be a space-fantasy setting for Pathfinder or wait and be among the first to support Starfinder. We're still trying to decide what to do there.
As for Paizo buying our IP (Erik if you're listening I'll gladly take a satchel of Mona Funbucks) that's just not happening. Paizo builds its own sandboxes and tools.
However, I have offered to help with the development of Starfinder by leveraging my and my team's expertise in this area. We just spent a year building this very concept and are uniquely positioned to help make Starfinder the best damn thing it can possible be. What form that takes, if any, is yet to be seen but when and if we can publicly talk more about any potential collaboration you'll hear about it from Paizo first.
That said, we did get an uptick in preorders after the Starfinder announcement. Because a rising tide lifts all boats ;)
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I agree with most of Malwing's post above, and I wanted to point out something from it.
Most of the speculation I've seen on Starfinder reflects a lot of D&D historyThis right here is something I'm surprised no one has really gone on at length about in this thread.
Another way of looking at Starfinder, and this kind of seems to mesh with what some of the "official" word has been, is that it is reflective of D&D/PF history in a different way- in the way that early TSR had many different games, in addition to D&D, as part of its stable. Games such as Boot Hill, Gangbusters, Gamma World, Metamorphosis Alpha, Top Secret (one of my personal favorites), and- not dissimilar to Starfinder- Star Frontiers.
Most of these had standalone systems that were different from D&D and each other, but at various points along the way, in various editions of those games, efforts were made to either make the mechanics similar to D&D or other games in the line.
It seems to me that Starfinder is really just Paizo testing the waters to do something in that vein, but with an eye towards trying to keep enough mechanics similar that they can still have some degree of cross-product pollination.
Perhaps, if it is successful, they might try similar such products, for different gaming styles (horror, maybe? I know there have been a lot of calls for steampunk Pathfinder, too.)
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Awww. The question of whether Aethera will be delayed by Starfinder was my main question since the announcement. On one hand, if the compatibility with Pathfinder is pretty smooth it can easily come out earlier than Starfinder and be fine, but on the other, that's a gamble when everyone who is likely to play or is playing space campaigns with Pathfinder are almost garaunteed to hop over to Starfinder when it comes out making the Pathfinder label useless and confuses the product, but leads to a painful wait time. If I may make a suggestion, if Aethera is really that far along, could we possibly get a beta PDF thats pending for a change once Starfinder comes out? That way you don't have to send anything to printers yet but we still get to experience the product in some capacity before the 'final' release and you'd have almost a year to rub out kinks and flaws spotted that may come up.
So hang on, no offense meant to the threadmaker at all, but is it okay if I just start making conspiracy threads about Starfinder now? Any complaints? You have five minutes to tell me no.
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It also seems to be a case of Paizo buying an outfit called Aethera which may have been working on a space-based setting for the Pathfinder society.
Our little baby Paizo has grown up and become Apple. They've bought someone else's work to brand as their own.
Mm-hm. Mm-hm. *Takes notes*
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Gamma World 4th ed had a lot of ideas and mechanics that made it into 3rd ed D&D, so it wouldn't surprise me.
Also 3rd ed had alot of things from Alternity which fits with the space opera sci-fi better.
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Also 3rd ed had alot of things from Alternity which fits with the space opera sci-fi better.
Gamma World 4th ed had a lot of ideas and mechanics that made it into 3rd ed D&D, so it wouldn't surprise me.
I really liked Alternity and wish I'd gotten to play it more. It was the first system that everything was baked in from the start. You had magic and psionics and science and hacking and cybernetics! I truly felt I could run the plane and genre hopping campaign that I've wanted to run since the beginning.
SM
I am a backer on the Aethera project and look forward to its fruition no matter how it shakes out. Pathfinder or Starfinder I will be using Aethera with Starfinder as I speculate that they will work well together. That and Legendary Planet from Legendary Games.
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One of the points I was trying to express earlier was that I think Starfinder has a lot of context within Pathfinder's lifespan, to the point that I think relating it to what's happened in Dungeons and Dragons history has no real bearing. Looking at how much pulp influence Distant Worlds has (Look at the 'Venus' planet. Its straight from ole timey science fiction pulps.) and how much pulp influence Golarion in general has, I think science fantasy has been somewhere in the background since day one. Bestiary 1 and the GameMastery Guide has all kinds of imagery for it too. There's just so much evidence that it's not just a result of Aethera or some other catalyst. I think this is the climax of a trend that's been going on for over a decade that has been speeding up since Reign of Winter.
I wasn't able to get in on the kickstarter but I can't wait for Aetherra to be released to the general public.
That was true before Starfinder, and it hasn't changed. :-)
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Good to see Monica and Robert already doing some rumor control here. ^_^
Rest assured, we want Aethera to be released just as much as our backers and future fans do. Myself especially so - I have a whole bunch of stuff to say about Aethera. But, I look forward to seeing what Starfinder looks like. If Mr. Brookes decides it's better for our setting to switch over, we'll do so.
I just hope they don't continue the color band scheme, or if they do to present it differently such as making a sidebar rather than listing out a dozen items for each kind item differentiated solely by color. It makes it feel bland and dull to just have a series repeated over and over.
One of the points I was trying to express earlier was that I think Starfinder has a lot of context within Pathfinder's lifespan, to the point that I think relating it to what's happened in Dungeons and Dragons history has no real bearing. Looking at how much pulp influence Distant Worlds has (Look at the 'Venus' planet. Its straight from ole timey science fiction pulps.) and how much pulp influence Golarion in general has, I think science fantasy has been somewhere in the background since day one. Bestiary 1 and the GameMastery Guide has all kinds of imagery for it too. There's just so much evidence that it's not just a result of Aethera or some other catalyst. I think this is the climax of a trend that's been going on for over a decade that has been speeding up since Reign of Winter.
And that´s exactly what is awesome. A point i´m asking myself is how ye olde science fiction and planet novels stuff, which is fairly sexist at points, works with the inclusiveness Paizo wants. Looking at some brand new books like Ultimate Intrigue and others makes me look forward to that though. Get that exotic, alien, sexy flavor in there and free it! Translate it into something that is sexy, but not sexist!
As for spelljammer, i really don´t want to see a viking ship manned by dwarves and gnomes hurling magic stones with catapults through space.
Look at the Saga comic, there´s far better things and ways to implement magic in a science fantasy setting! They have a naturaly grown rocketship there, which is essentially a half sentient tree transportng people through space. That is awesome.
I also wonder why people always want something new, but the new thing then should actually not contain something new, best only really minor variations of what has been there before and continue old stuff.
I want new things to be new. There has been way too many "traditionalist" elements in Pathfinder and i really think those are falling on the games feet since some time. Freeing it from the legacy would probably be the best decision mechanics wise.
And i totaly agree with Malwing, the science fantasy was waiting in Pathfinder all along^^