I have a player, half elf female, who is pursuing a romantic relationship with a fully elven NPC. Culturally speaking, how unlikely is this? Are there any societal squeaks I should consider?
Would the elven partner simply be putting himself on the path to becoming forlorn?
I'm trying to gauge how to have the NPC respond to this. Her diplomacy rolls are out of this world, so she's making a good advance. I'm simply trying consider the male character's societal pressure or personal anxieties on the matter.
Also- what is the elven opinion of marriage? Just in general... Not necessarily with the half elf character. Do they find the idea of prolonged commitment silly?
I wouldn't say it's that unlikely. The odds of a stable relationship are better than an elf and a human, yet half elves happen pretty much all the time.
Yes there might be a section of the elf population that are snooty bastard purists and turn their noses up at it, but it's not likely to end up in being shunned unless it takes place in a very elf-centric setting. In a city nobody would bat an eyelash.
If you think about it, relationships especially in the beginning, are a combination of Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive and Perception.
And yeah Bluff should be the smallest component of the 4 but it's there.
I agree that it's a lot more complicated than a diplomacy roll.Hence, why I'm trying to get a feel for what else might come into play, aside from base attraction.
I was curious to see what other GMs feel regarding how elves might respond to it, or if there was any other sort of social pressure that might make an elf disinclined to commit. For example- if the half elf PC begins to wax poetic about marriage, is the aloof elven partner going to find this idea highly uncomfortable?
Comparatively, in Tolkien's works, elves mating with shorter living races is heavily frowned upon. In contrast, though, elves in Tolkien flat out DO NOT get up to any "fun" prior to marriage. Tolkien's world is very unique though and you can hardly call his elves the same as the elves in Pathfinder. Not by a long shot... Just using this as an example of how the culture can influence player attempts to build such a story line.
In the meantime, I think the male elf might respond positively to the advance. I am not so sure if he is in the right mind for considering 'commitment'. Well, when all else fails- give the player what she wants, then get the guy kidnapped for a side quest. :p
Or make the elf a villain. That usually works fine. :-)
Non-elven relationships for elves tend to be... casual. Unless the NPC is particularly young for his race he has probably lived, loved, and lost more than the party combined. A short fling for an elf could be a live in relationship for 5 years, or it could literally be one night.
Unless the NPC is seeing someone else already let them get together, but really play up the elven views within one.
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Or make the elf a villain. That usually works fine. :-)
I like Sissyl's idea. Or you could kill him off, or have him framed by a villain, kidnapped by a villain, or accidentally transformed in a magical lab accident.
Another option that I recently read in a story was to show the aftermath of a serious elven/non-elven relationship. A young, handsome elf escorting a hideously decrepit and clearly senile old human at the tavern. Emphasize how much he still clearly loves her, but she is too far gone to even percieve her surroundings. The story that I read, the players immediately asked the elf if the lady was his grandma, and things went downhill from there, but a less dumb party might fare better.
I have a player, half elf female, who is pursuing a romantic relationship with a fully elven NPC. Culturally speaking, how unlikely is this? Are there any societal squeaks I should consider?
Would the elven partner simply be putting himself on the path to becoming forlorn?
I'm trying to gauge how to have the NPC respond to this. Her diplomacy rolls are out of this world, so she's making a good advance. I'm simply trying consider the male character's societal pressure or personal anxieties on the matter.
Also- what is the elven opinion of marriage? Just in general... Not necessarily with the half elf character. Do they find the idea of prolonged commitment silly?
Reading the BG of iconic half-elves and general stuff on elves, it seems that love affairs between elves and other races are quite common but not always end well.
Tsuto and Seltyiel are born after a one-night affair between their human mothers (who were married to someone else) and their elven fathers (who simply didn't care abouth their child). Lirianne elven mother left her husband and child 10 years after her wedding because she simply changed her mind and wanted to see something else.
So it seems that on the subject of sex and love, elves are rather calistrian. They enjoy the moment but don't consider them tied by some bonds, or can completely change their minds without reason.
So there doesn't seem to be any societal pressure that could prevent your elven NPC to be engaged with the PC.
The problem may be rather that your elven NPC doesn't share the same definition of prolonged commitment than your PC : after 1 night, 1 month or a few years, he could simply tur naway from her.
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"50 Shades of Grey Elf"... it's a thing now.
Looking through NPCS races in Paizo's adventures there seems to be more half-elves than humans almost. Probably because J. Jacobs luvs his elves. Or is it a conspiracy? Are the elves slowly trying to take over human society? Quick, build a wall on the Kyonin border! And make the pointy-ears pay for it!
Elves are usually quite willing to start a romantic relationship with a human or half-elf.
They are also usually quite willing to move on to somebody else before their partner ages noticeably.
"Honey, does this make me look fat?"
"No...no, it makes you look old. Bye."
"I... what? HEY!"
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Elves in Golarion are really and sincerely not those of Tolkien or many other fantasy worlds. They're a lot less stuck up for the most part, and their main racial deity is Calistria.
That second part goes a long way to explaining the "love 'em and leave 'em" tendencies noted in this thread (which, for the record, tend to apply to other elves almost as much as to humans)...but those tendencies are by no means universal. And, as worshipers of Calistria, few elves are gonna pass judgments on the sex/love lives of others.
Heck, Merisiel and Kyra (the Iconic Cleric and Rogue) are in what seems to be a very sweet relationship (though it's early days yet on the time scale).
This really depends way more on the individual Elf in question than it does on the fact he's an Elf.
Also, I would strongly advise not having him suddenly turn out to be the villain or get killed. It's seriously trite and overdone. PC relationships can certainly end tragically, but if so it should be either the plan from the beginning (ie: they fall for the person you already decided was the villain) and a major plot point or something that evolves organically (ie: the PC's lover is fighting with them and the enemy rolls a crit, killing them), not the GM going 'Oh, a relationship, let me see how I can use it to screw over the PC!'
GMs doing that kind of bullshit is why everyone makes friendless loner PCs, and is generally kind of a dick move.
I have a player, half elf female, who is pursuing a romantic relationship with a fully elven NPC. Culturally speaking, how unlikely is this? Are there any societal squeaks I should consider?
Would the elven partner simply be putting himself on the path to becoming forlorn?
I'm trying to gauge how to have the NPC respond to this. Her diplomacy rolls are out of this world, so she's making a good advance. I'm simply trying consider the male character's societal pressure or personal anxieties on the matter.
Also- what is the elven opinion of marriage? Just in general... Not necessarily with the half elf character. Do they find the idea of prolonged commitment silly?
Elves are like Vulcans. They have a definite superiority complex when it comes to Humans, and one of their gods won't even take prayers from half-elven petitioners. Generally in most game worlds, and Golarion isn't an exception, there is no such thing as a Diplomacy DC which erases this basic prejudice.
As to the last question, while elves may be more fluid in their relationships, family is very important to them. So elves do commit for life, but that does not imply strict monogamy.
I wouldn't say it's that unlikely. The odds of a stable relationship are better than an elf and a human, yet half elves happen pretty much all the time.
Yes there might be a section of the elf population that are snooty bastard purists and turn their noses up at it, but it's not likely to end up in being shunned unless it takes place in a very elf-centric setting. In a city nobody would bat an eyelash.
In a Human city, you're right. In an elven city, elves prefer to express their disdain in more subtle ways that don't fail to get the point across. It's very clear that Kyonin elves harbor much of the same attitudes we've come to see familliar in the TSR and WOTC game worlds. And who can blame them, really? To elves humans are short-lived, agressive people who are out of touch not only with the world, but in most cases, each other as well.
Humans are frequently exciting sexual dalliances for elves, but by their own short-lived nature, very rarely candidates for a committed long-term relationship. That's why most Half-Elves are as the title goes... Bastards of Golarion.
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Looking through NPCS races in Paizo's adventures there seems to be more half-elves than humans almost. Probably because J. Jacobs luvs his elves. Or is it a conspiracy? Are the elves slowly trying to take over human society? Quick, build a wall on the Kyonin border! And make the pointy-ears pay for it!The Kyonin diplomat to Korvosa and his staff are the fathers of the vast majority of Korvosa's half-elf population. Whether it just be the fact that they all love desperate noble human housewives or if its some plot to turn Korvosa Elven, is yet to be seen.
EDIT: I think elves might have to check the pedigree of any half-elf liasons, for fear that they're accidentally pursuing a romantic tryst with a grandkid or something.
. I feel compelled to mention that I, as a Rhode Island resident, live in a state where first cousins can legally marry, and wonder what a race with a life span as long as 750 years would consider the culturally taboo limits of "or something."
(Hey, you ever write a post where you started out trying not to sound like a creeper and became more and creeped out by yourself with each word you wrote? Yeah, me either, I was just wondering.)
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Looking through NPCS races in Paizo's adventures there seems to be more half-elves than humans almost. Probably because J. Jacobs luvs his elves. Or is it a conspiracy? Are the elves slowly trying to take over human society? Quick, build a wall on the Kyonin border! And make the pointy-ears pay for it!The Kyonin diplomat to Korvosa and his staff are the fathers of the vast majority of Korvosa's half-elf population. Whether it just be the fact that they all love desperate noble human housewives or if its some plot to turn Korvosa Elven, is yet to be seen.
EDIT: I think elves might have to check the pedigree of any half-elf liasons, for fear that they're accidentally pursuing a romantic tryst with a grandkid or something.
[dice=Will Save] 1d20 - 3. I feel compelled to mention that I, as a Rhode Island resident, live in a state where first cousins can legally marry, and wonder what a race with a life span as long as 750 years would consider the culturally taboo limits of "or something."
(Hey, you ever write a post where you started out trying not to sound like a creeper and became more and creeped out by yourself with each word you wrote? Yeah, me either, I was just wondering.)
Well, great-great-grandchildren are the same degree of relationship as first cousins, so that's likely the starting point. Not likely to come up among pure elves - even with a lifespan of 750 years, that's likely to be a big age difference ~450 years - which puts the elder into venerable when the younger hits adulthood.
Certainly possible with half-elven descendants (or in the later generations essentially human descendants). Quite possibly, you'd never even know. Especially if it was a fairly casual liason on the elven ancestor's part.
I was imagining a situation where an elf has a half-elf child, who has a human child, and all the descendants thereafter are human. But that's flavor, not game mechanics. I don't think Paizo has ever explained elf/half-elf/human racial genetics in game-mechanical terms, and I'm fine with that. A "Socially Acceptable Family Member Dating Chart" gets way too close to F.A.T.A.L. style play.
I would imagine that an elf would try to avoid dating his descendants, but mistakes can happen. I could see the result being something like what happened on True Blood when a vampire realized that he was dating his own great-great-granddaughter.
Hitdice, iirc, I believe such things as half, full, or none (in mixed couplings) outcomes can also skip generations similar to the whole aasimar/tiefling thing.
I have a player, half elf female, who is pursuing a romantic relationship with a fully elven NPC. Culturally speaking, how unlikely is this? Are there any societal squeaks I should consider?
Would the elven partner simply be putting himself on the path to becoming forlorn?
I'm trying to gauge how to have the NPC respond to this. Her diplomacy rolls are out of this world, so she's making a good advance. I'm simply trying consider the male character's societal pressure or personal anxieties on the matter.
Also- what is the elven opinion of marriage? Just in general... Not necessarily with the half elf character. Do they find the idea of prolonged commitment silly?
This is probably far too late now.. but, what the hey...
If you're looking for a mechanical structure, the Jade Regent AP used relationships between PCs and NPCs as part of the story, and the Players' Guide for that AP has the rules in it. These were later expanded to cover more types of relationships, and included in Ultimate Campaign.
"Forlorn" really isn't something you become after you're an adult.. it is how that character grew up... isolated from other elves and among the shorter-lived races.
As far as how the elf would view the advances of a half-elf, part of that depends on the world you're running in. The rules provide the mechanics, but the setting provides flavor such as how races view each other.
That being said, if you're running in Golarion, the Player Companion "Bastards of Golarion" is probably the most helpful to your situation, as it is mostly about Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, and talks about how the elves of Kyonin view half-elves among other things.
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I wouldn't say it's that unlikely. The odds of a stable relationship are better than an elf and a human, yet half elves happen pretty much all the time.
Yes there might be a section of the elf population that are snooty bastard purists and turn their noses up at it, but it's not likely to end up in being shunned unless it takes place in a very elf-centric setting. In a city nobody would bat an eyelash.
It's important to remember that half elves are their own propagating race, not just the result of a human and elf having a child. The beginnings of the race were that, but eventually a large enough population was formed that half-elves started having more half-elf children.
However, populations remain low enough that their are no (to my knowledge) predominantly half-elf societies.
As to the likelihood of human elven romance... well it's unlikely in the sense that elves know they live substantially longer than humans or half-elves and so they try to avoid entering into relationships with such individuals because of the pain of having to watch loved ones die again and again. This is part of the backstory of the elven iconic rogue Merisiel, who enters into a relationship with the human iconic cleric of Sarenrae Kyra.
So...it should be rare but it does also happen. It's actually 100% trope, the whole forlorn love of "immortal" and human beings and the pain it causes.
Looking through NPCS races in Paizo's adventures there seems to be more half-elves than humans almost. Probably because J. Jacobs luvs his elves. Or is it a conspiracy? Are the elves slowly trying to take over human society? Quick, build a wall on the Kyonin border! And make the pointy-ears pay for it!The Kyonin diplomat to Korvosa and his staff are the fathers of the vast majority of Korvosa's half-elf population. Whether it just be the fact that they all love desperate noble human housewives or if its some plot to turn Korvosa Elven, is yet to be seen.
EDIT: I think elves might have to check the pedigree of any half-elf liasons, for fear that they're accidentally pursuing a romantic tryst with a grandkid or something.
[dice=Will Save] 1d20 - 3. I feel compelled to mention that I, as a Rhode Island resident, live in a state where first cousins can legally marry, and wonder what a race with a life span as long as 750 years would consider the culturally taboo limits of "or something."
(Hey, you ever write a post where you started out trying not to sound like a creeper and became more and creeped out by yourself with each word you wrote? Yeah, me either, I was just wondering.)
Throw out their 'main' goddess Calistria... and I don't imagine 'Taboo' is very far reaching thing with Golarion elves. I'm sure there are SOME with a more solid moral compass... but overall? I don't think they'd have much issue.
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It's important to remember that half elves are their own propagating race, not just the result of a human and elf having a child. The beginnings of the race were that, but eventually a large enough population was formed that half-elves started having more half-elf children.
You're thinking Eberron half-elves, in Golarion, the vast majority of half-elves outside of Krages, are almost always human/elf byblows, the iconic magus, Seltyiel being the classic trope bearer.
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You're thinking Eberron half-elves, in Golarion, the vast majority of half-elves outside of Krages, are almost always human/elf byblows, the iconic magus, Seltyiel being the classic trope bearer.
It's important to remember that half elves are their own propagating race, not just the result of a human and elf having a child. The beginnings of the race were that, but eventually a large enough population was formed that half-elves started having more half-elf children.
I'm not. I didn't say which was more prevalent (in fact I don't know if it's established as one being more prevalent), only that there are enough half-elves that despite not having primarily half-elf communities there are enough half-elves who are procreating with other half-elves that they are a significant source of the half-elf population.
But there are definitely plenty of half-elves born of the forlorn of between human and elf to satisfy all the necessary tropes.
The Pathfinder elves are rather different from the D&D elves. In D&D, they... kinda look down upon humans, since they live much longer. Pathfinder elves seem to be more humans to relationships on any kind with humans.
Still, half-elves are STILL "a thing", but I really doubt that humans and elves can't live/co-exist together.
The Pathfinder elves are rather different from the D&D elves. In D&D, they... kinda look down upon humans, since they live much longer. Pathfinder elves seem to be more humans to relationships on any kind with humans.
Still, half-elves are STILL "a thing", but I really doubt that humans and elves can't live/co-exist together.
On the other hand, Krages exists in Kyonin as literally a dumping ground for half-elven byblows.. the unwanted results of female elves having flings with humans.
I have a player, half elf female, who is pursuing a romantic relationship with a fully elven NPC. Culturally speaking, how unlikely is this? Are there any societal squeaks I should consider?
Would the elven partner simply be putting himself on the path to becoming forlorn?
I'm trying to gauge how to have the NPC respond to this. Her diplomacy rolls are out of this world, so she's making a good advance. I'm simply trying consider the male character's societal pressure or personal anxieties on the matter.
Also- what is the elven opinion of marriage? Just in general... Not necessarily with the half elf character. Do they find the idea of prolonged commitment silly?
This is probably far too late now.. but, what the hey...
If you're looking for a mechanical structure, the Jade Regent AP used relationships between PCs and NPCs as part of the story, and the Players' Guide for that AP has the rules in it. These were later expanded to cover more types of relationships, and included in Ultimate Campaign.
"Forlorn" really isn't something you become after you're an adult.. it is how that character grew up... isolated from other elves and among the shorter-lived races.
As far as how the elf would view the advances of a half-elf, part of that depends on the world you're running in. The rules provide the mechanics, but the setting provides flavor such as how races view each other.
That being said, if you're running in Golarion, the Player Companion "Bastards of Golarion" is probably the most helpful to your situation, as it is mostly about Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, and talks about how the elves of Kyonin view half-elves among other things.
The Relationship rules from that AP were updated/reworked in Paizo's Ultimate Campaign and are also available here.
Ultimate Relationships by Legendary Games expanded those rules considerably and offers example NPC relationship for that AP in Imperial Relationships.
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There is not enough material on the subject of kyonin. But if my opinion matters (however little)
The elf knows he will outlive you by far. The elven mindset is unclear (to me) as a mixture of casual experience and long range planning. So, you really aren't in the long range plan, but is he willing to live the moment.
There is not enough material on the subject of kyonin.
For those who don't know, there is an 8-page write-up of Kyonin in Pathfinder #17, A Memory of Darkness, book 5 of the Second Darkness AP. As it is all flavor, it is usable with the Pathfinder rules even though it was written in the 3.x era.
Likewise, the half-elf settlement of Erages, in Kyonin, gets a 2-page write-up in the Player Companion "Bastards of Golarion".
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For those who don't know, there is an 8-page write-up of Kyonin in Pathfinder #17, A Memory of Darkness, book 5 of the Second Darkness AP. As it is all flavor, it is usable with the Pathfinder rules even though it was written in the 3.x era.There is not enough material on the subject of kyonin.
Yes, but that book's garbage, so no one bought it. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the material in it's been retconned either.
Yes, but that book's garbage, so no one bought it. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the material in it's been retconned either.For those who don't know, there is an 8-page write-up of Kyonin in Pathfinder #17, A Memory of Darkness, book 5 of the Second Darkness AP. As it is all flavor, it is usable with the Pathfinder rules even though it was written in the 3.x era.There is not enough material on the subject of kyonin.
Where would it be retconned at? Part of the problem is that there isn't much written beyond Elves of Golarion and second Darkness...
They can't really be retconned until there is some newer info to replace it with right?
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Yes, but that book's garbage, so no one bought it. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the material in it's been retconned either.
The adventure pathh is not particularly good. The info on Kyonin is another matter.
Bastards is pretty good, though I wish it had more on half elves/orcs and less "generic" info.
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This is an interesting thread, so I will add my two cents in. Lol Marriage in a long life humanoid creature is one of need, what are the benefits of being in that relationship. We think of Sex and passion in human relationships as being the driving force on entering and sustaining that relationship. This may not hold true with a race that is so long lived. What is 50 years to an immortal? I view the Elven people as souls doing their own things (interests) coming together bonding and raising a child. There own identity is not tied up with that child as it is in human society. You would have many children over the course of your life and so would your children and their children. I view an Elven society where the children would be raised communally and would form ties more generationally with there peers as opposed to parents to child relationships. The benefits of said relationships may be passion but it could be other factors that make the relationship work. Intellectual compatibility, Emotional support, Deep understanding of what the other is going through. Regardless, the long life humanoid will not get overly attached to the relationship staying the same and or continuing forever.
It was my understanding that because of Calistria's role in elven culture, elves are willing to enter into a romantic relationship with more or less anything and don't judge other elves from seeking their pleasure where they can find it. Presumably "actual fiends" are the exception here.
It's just that relationships with humans have the odd side effect of "occasional children" that other cross-species dalliances don't.
With the exercise of suitable skill at Necromancy, an Elf could have a Human or Half-Elven partner for a full Elven lifespan . . . .