Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I do have one issue which comes to mind. While it doesn't affect me I know of at least one online wizard player who has a staff of the master as their arcane bond. Do they get a 15k refund of the enchant cost and get to pick an alternate arcane bond without paying the 200gp/level to do so?
That seems reasonable.
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Designer
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It looks like it's preventative (mentions "prevents" and "the wearer takes") and doesn't retroactively remove penalties, damage, and drain (like you can't pass it around the party to negate penalties and ability damage after the fact) so I think you should be able to remove, drink, replace.Can't say I'm happy that my alchemist has to ditch his lesser ring of inner fortitude.I'm not sure I'm going to ditch it off mine. I take the penalties for the cognatogen now, but several times I've been completely unscathed by things that drain 1 ability point per hit thanks to that ring.Except that you don't get a choice about it affecting cognatogens or mutagens, meaning you can't gain the benefits of either while wearing even the lesser ring.
Yeah, the protection from the drain is nice, but it completely nullifies a class feature.
I realize that's an alias talking but that's even more lenient than what I was thinking. My thoughts were:
I don't walk around under the effects of my cognatogen all the time. In fact I personally usually make the decision to drink it when I intend to *start* an encounter. It's worth it to me to keep the ring on until then in case I run into - a wraith, for example.
Also I was thinking I could put it back on just prior to the cognatogen ending, preventing the damage from occurring when it did run out (cognatogen is a bit more harsh at the end than a mutagen).
Saying it's not retroactive while the ring is off is more lenient for this combination, but it's less lenient for a character who wanted to remove->replace->remove->replace->remove->replace the ring in order to successively recover all their ability damage and drain (or pass it around the party and remove everything). Being preventative also seems like how it's meant to work to me based on the wording of the ring.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Wow. That's a lot of items nerfed extremely hard. As in, from too-good to never-use. Not a fan of balancing things quite this heavy-handedly.
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I think the items covered above cover all of my PCs as re-selling goes, but wouldn't it have been simpler just to say that resell goes for any item named in the errata document?
The 'Guide currently states that whenever a trait or feat's effect changes you can retrain it, and whenever the price of an item changes you have to re-buy. But if the price of an item remains the same but it's function changes (gets nerfed) doesn't it make sense to trigger a re-buy because it's value-for-money changed?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Some people may want to sell back their Snapleafs now.
While you're at it, can we now use the updated scorpion whip rules out of UE and not AA?With the updated rules, whip proficiency no longer gives you scorpion whip proficiency. That's going to break a bunch of characters.
Yes, but it makes the scorpion whip more it's own weapon and not 'look I can do lethal damage now.'
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Wow. That's a lot of items nerfed extremely hard. As in, from too-good to never-use. Not a fan of balancing things quite this heavy-handedly.
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I think the items covered above cover all of my PCs as re-selling goes, but wouldn't it have been simpler just to say that resell goes for any item named in the errata document?
The 'Guide currently states that whenever a trait or feat's effect changes you can retrain it, and whenever the price of an item changes you have to re-buy. But if the price of an item remains the same but it's function changes (gets nerfed) doesn't it make sense to trigger a re-buy because it's value-for-money changed?
I agree with some of what you're saying, but my short answer is "It's not quite that simple." Allowing the reselling of anything mentioned in the document would mean people could freely resell improved shadow armor because the enhancement name was changed to shadow, improved. I think there's also some value judgment in what mechanical change denotes a noteworthy change in function. As I've been reminded by missing a few feats in Ultimate Intrigue that were hidden in a not-legal subsystem, issuing broad statements of what is and isn't allowed does come with risks.
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So...could we lower the price of the new Jingasa? Furthermore, what's the price of one with the crit negation expended?
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I continue to think these errata go too far with the nerfs and never seem to contain any buffs to unusable content. Surely some published content needs to be made stronger and more viable rather than just better by proxy of everything else being unusable.
At least it is just items this time around.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The jingasa is now either a use once and replace item or not even worth your time. May as well have been banned.I don't think we will ever see this in game play again, to be honest.
As one-shot items go, they'll now be compared to talismans and aegis of recovery. And they don't look all that good in that contest. That deflection bonus is weighing down the price.
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Argh.
Why does paizo ever bother making magic items? Unless they're better than the generic +x items, no one uses them. If they're better than the generic +x items, the subsequent errata invariably nerfs them so hard they're not just worse, they're utterly useless.
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The jingasa is now either a use once and replace item or not even worth your time. May as well have been banned.I don't think we will ever see this in game play again, to be honest.
You are likely correct. It's true that it was disproportionately purchased (lol Jingasa slot), but this nerf is...exceptional. It feels along the same lines as some of the ACG nerfs that were so poorly received.
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As one-shot items go, they'll now be compared to talismans and aegis of recovery. And they don't look all that good in that contest. That deflection bonus is weighing down the price.The jingasa is now either a use once and replace item or not even worth your time. May as well have been banned.I don't think we will ever see this in game play again, to be honest.
One of the biggest issues with Paizo's consumable items (or 1/day items) is that they are overpriced for their effects (especially with the 24-hour lockout. One of the main reasons I'm willing to overpay is the scroll-like versatility of having a bag of 1/day items in my pocket).
Overall it seems like the route forward is "nerf everything good" without much consideration about general game balance. I would much rather have a slew of strong, competitive (or overpowered as some people prefer to spout) options that inspire builds/use/actions.
One of the changes that really bother me this cycle is the Snap Leaf change. Why rewrite the item to include an undefined term ("falling") instead of simply changing the activation action to "swift". The wording change attempts to remove all versatility from the item and introduces a lot of potential for variance (for example: "While running away I'll have my character hop. While falling from the hop I'll use my snap leaf." or "While running both my feet are off the ground which means I'm falling, I activate my snap leaf."). A swift allows the item to be bought/used as a swift potion of invisibility (appropriate for 2.5xPrice) and is justifiable as "you have to search for your snap leaf briefly to snap it" and does a lot to prevent all the shenanigans.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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brawling armor from a +1 to a +3. Wow.
That honestly makes sense considering that it was originally cheaper than every single other alternative to get that bonus increase. Hell Im not entirely sure its still isn't ridiculously cheap.
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I'm maybe being too literal here but with the change to snap leaf you can only activate it while falling. Is it the normal standard action to activate normally (say if you mainly wanted it for the invisibility) or do I need to take a move action to jump then use it?
There are two ways to use it:
1) If you are the target of a pit spell, or a trap that dumps you in a pit, or are bull-rushed off the side of a cliff, or otherwise made to fall while it is not your turn, you can activate the item and turn invisible with featherfall.
2) You can take a move action to leap into the air, thus start falling, and also turn invisible. I can think of a neat encounter where badguys HALO jump onto the PCs in this fashion.
I continue to think these errata go too far with the nerfs and never seem to contain any buffs to unusable content. Surely some published content needs to be made stronger and more viable rather than just better by proxy of everything else being unusable.
At least it is just items this time around.
Jaunt Boots got changed from a standard action to a move action. So at least 1 item got improved. Gloves of Dueling still provide a big boost to Weapon Training. They didn't nerf all the good stuff.
As long as they don't do what they did last time and eratta another major book a week or two from now, (Advanced Players?) things will be fine.
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I continue to think these errata go too far with the nerfs and never seem to contain any buffs to unusable content. Surely some published content needs to be made stronger and more viable rather than just better by proxy of everything else being unusable.
At least it is just items this time around.
Jaunt Boots got changed from a standard action to a move action. So at least 1 item got improved. Gloves of Dueling still provide a big boost to Weapon Training. They didn't nerf all the good stuff.
As long as they don't do what they did last time and eratta another major book a week or two from now, (Advanced Players?) things will be fine.
To be fair, with PaizoCon and GenCon in the near future this is the most likely time of the year for reprinting material (as those are big selling periods, especially GenCon) forcing more material to be printed, so if more come now-ish is when it would probably happen.
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I've read every change up to Jingasa, and that's the first that gave me pause. I could now see myself buying it for some characters though - since not all buy rings of protection (too many other rings or other sources of deflection bonuses). With selling back and buying a new one, it's just 2500 per "OMG, save my life Jingasa!"
Plague Mask very tempting now for the new lower price.
Kudos, especially on the communication.
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John, do you know when these changes will be applied to the PRD?It's in line behind Ultimate Intrigue; neither are going to happen until after PaizoCon.
It might also make sense to clear out most of the Ultimate Equipment FAQs. All of them except the last (i.e. how Impact interacts with Lead Blades) are now covered in the second printing / errata... and soon PRD.
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I continue to think these errata go too far with the nerfs and never seem to contain any buffs to unusable content. Surely some published content needs to be made stronger and more viable rather than just better by proxy of everything else being unusable.
At least it is just items this time around.
Jaunt Boots got changed from a standard action to a move action. So at least 1 item got improved. Gloves of Dueling still provide a big boost to Weapon Training. They didn't nerf all the good stuff.
As long as they don't do what they did last time and eratta another major book a week or two from now, (Advanced Players?) things will be fine.
Jaunt boots aren't as part of a 5-foot step? Then I've definitely been using them wrong.
Either way, kind of wish I could sell those back, no reason for my archer to not just tumble out of being threatened if its the same action as teleporting.
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I like how they nerfed Jingasa into the ground and kept the price the same. lulz.
That's to catch the folks that have the print version but don't pay attention to the on-line discussions and updates so they can be blanket-spanked at conventions and other venues... for their own good, of course.
Still, it'll free up some coin for my cash-starved 'tank' to save for a better + to either armor or shield, I guess...
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Well, now that we've gone on yet another nerf-bat spree, does anyone mind telling me what to do when a PFS Character's entire purchasing history becomes nonsense thanks to decisions made with certain items in mind? Do I get to resell items purchased specifically to synergize with the item at their full price? Or am I left with a character that effectively permanently lost money because of unpredicted errata?
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And they don't appear to require an action to use.
Expect table variation. It doesn't say that they can be activated as a free action. The default is that things get activated as a standard action. That would make them really extremely overpriced, as opposed to merely really overpriced they way they are post-nerf. But, I strongly suspect some GMs will interpret it that way.