| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, as many of you may or may not know one of the features of the recent Occult Adventures book was the innocuous little gem that is the Eastern Star Cavalier order. On the surface, this order seems to make the cavlaier a little more defensively focused, giving significant AC and saves, as well as a smidge of DR, to the cavalier class provided that the character in question generally favor defensive fighting and/or combat expertise. After not seeing it used for much since, however, I've decided to do what I can to take this defensive cavalier chassis and dial it up to eleven.
"But Sumutherguy," you ask, "what can you do with this? Don't you know that defensive-focused martials are rather silly and ineffective, and that monk-paladins are already the best at AC and save pumping?"
"Aha", I reply, waggling my eyebrows knowingly, "watch and be surprised my skeptical friend, as I work arithmetic wonders"*
*"arithmetic wonders" here being defined as "i looked up stuff in a book and plugged it into a calculator aren't I so brilliant"
So here goes:
Race: Halfling
20 pt buy: 10 Str 16 Dex 16 Con 8 int 10 wis 16 cha
traits: cautious warrior, fortune's favored
LEVEL ONE!: MoMS Monk. Feats: Imp. Unarmed (duh), Crane Style (bonus feat), Toughness, Stunning Fist
"Aha!" you think, "So it is just another monk build!"
First of all, shut up, i needed quick access to crane style. Second of all, also shut up.
Level 2: 1 Daring Champion Order of the Eastern Star Cavalier, some teamwork feat, challenge, etc.
Level 3: monk 1/cavalier 2: cautious fighter, Order, Guarded
Alright, so here's our first milestone. At level 3 with Guarded active we have saves of Fort 9, Ref 8, Will 5. A bit lacking in our will save, but strong overall. More importantly, entering into defensive fighting now gives us 2(base)+1(trait)+2(cautious fighter)+1(crane style)+1(acrobatics = 7 bonus AC when fighting defensively for a -2 to attack. Not bad for level 3, eh? With a chain shirt and buckler that brings our AC to 27, or 28 against challenged foes.
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE
Level 4: monk 1/cavalier 2/paladin 1: smite, aura, detect evil. +1 CON
"OHHHHHH" You are screaming in your mind, "It's another monkadin, big deaaallll."
Why must you always be so negative?
Level 5: Monk 1/cavalier 2/paladin 2: DIVINE GRACE BABY. Also, Lay On Hands and Draconic Defender.
Now, divine grace adds your CHA to your saves and Draconic Defender gives an ally (you count as your own) a natural armor bonus equal to your dodge bonus from defensive fighting. Which, right now is 7.
So this brings our defenses to Fort 15, Ref 11, Will 11 and 34/35 AC. Pretty dang good, but we can GO HIGHER.
Level 6: Monk 1/cavalier 3/paladin 2: Nimble! +1 AC!
Level 7: Monk 2/cavalier 3/paladin 2: Crane Wing (bonus), Blundering Defense
Now, crane wing is a bit of a controversial feat. It gives you an additional +4 dodge bonus when fighting defensively, but that bonus goes away if an attack misses by 4 or less. Normally, that would be a pretty big problem, but we ahve other feats that serve as a force multiplier here.
So, with crane wing our dodge bonus to defensive fighting is now 11, with a -2 to attacks. Pretty hefty. This means that our Draconic Defender bonus is now also 11 while crane wing is up, and that on top of this we have the new Blundering Defense luck bonus to AC which is equal to half of our dodge bonus, so 6 if we include fortune's favored. The Crane Wing +4 therefore actually gives us a net +11 AC, more than a sufficient cushion to keep it up consistently.
Our last level is Cavalier 4/Monk 2/Paladin 2, for deeds, 1 dex, and a +1 to our order bonus.
With this our defenses while fighting defensively end up as follows:
Saves: Fort 19 (3 attribute + 10 base + 3 grace + 1 halfling +2 guarded), Ref 13 (4 base + 3 attribute + 3 grace +1 halfling +2 guarded), Will 13 (7 base + 3 grace +1 halfling +2 guarded)
AC: 10 + 4 (armor) +3 (dex) +1 (buckler) +1 (Size) + 11 (dodge) + 11 (NA) + 6 (luck) +1 (nimble) = 48
Those are some pretty ridiculous figures, and this is without any magic items! At Level 9 with lower-than average WBL and average HP rolls our Halfling multiclassed monstrosity could also have:
Rod of Balance
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
+1 Buckler
+1 Agile Rapier
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Lesser Luck Mail
For the following array:
Level 8
HP: 85
Fort: 24
Ref: 19
Will: 18
AC: 56 when defensively fighting
DR 1/-
Feats: Imp. Unarmed, Crane Style, Toughness, Stunning Fist, Cautious Fighter, Draconic Defender, Crane Wing, Blundering Defense
Against the target of a challenge, saves and AC all go up by 2. Against a smite target, AC goes up by 4. Also, Evasion, for what that's worth.
Attacks: Rapier +11/+6 for 1d4+8 damage. 1d4+12 in a challenge, +15/10 and 1d4+14 in both a challenge and smite. Not incredible, but not as horrible as some defensively-focused builds. The Cavalier combo of challenge and precise strike really save our bacon here.
"But you never really solved the problem of a defensive martial being generally ignorable and ineffective. Anyone can stack Daring Champion damage bonuses." You beam into my brain with your mind-lasers.
There's just no pleasing you, is there?
So, eh, yeah, like you said, ignoring that this relies on an incredibly oose interpretation of the Draconic Defender Feat and counting as your own ally, what does this do to address ANY of the problems with a defense focused build?
Yes, yes, high AC, big whoop. You still have no way to force anyone to attack you, or punish them for missing, or any such thing.
You could fix part of that by mixing in Snake Style, but it's still pretty meh because of the first bit.
You still have the classic "I can't crack the tin can, let's go after the softer meat" problem.
What was the point of this thread?
So, eh, yeah, like you said, ignoring that this relies on an incredibly oose interpretation of the Draconic Defender Feat and counting as your own ally, what does this do to address ANY of the problems with a defense focused build?
Yes, yes, high AC, big whoop. You still have no way to force anyone to attack you, or punish them for missing, or any such thing.
You could fix part of that by mixing in Snake Style, but it's still pretty meh because of the first bit.
You still have the classic "I can't crack the tin can, let's go after the softer meat" problem.
What was the point of this thread?
One, the point was mostly an exercise in theorycrafting. Two, you always count as your own ally in Pathfinder.
The solution would really be that this setup allows you to be mostly item-independent for very high defenses, so one could focus a lot more on offense with items, (bracers of the avenging knight, silver smite bracelet, and champion's banner come to mind), and on top of this each further cavalier level (and the chain challenge feat) is gonna add another 2 static damage to your attacks, making you a more effective damage dealer as a game progresses, though with the lack of pounce that plagues daring champions in general.
One, the point was mostly an exercise in theorycrafting. Two, you always count as your own ally in Pathfinder.
Yeah, you might want to re-check that, buddy.
Yeah, you might want to re-check that, buddy.One, the point was mostly an exercise in theorycrafting. Two, you always count as your own ally in Pathfinder.
"You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible."
Is the contention that this would fall under the "makes no sense" bit? I'm not sure how.
So, eh, yeah, like you said, ignoring that this relies on an incredibly oose interpretation of the Draconic Defender Feat and counting as your own ally, what does this do to address ANY of the problems with a defense focused build?
Yes, yes, high AC, big whoop. You still have no way to force anyone to attack you, or punish them for missing, or any such thing.
You could fix part of that by mixing in Snake Style, but it's still pretty meh because of the first bit.
You still have the classic "I can't crack the tin can, let's go after the softer meat" problem.
What was the point of this thread?
One, the point was mostly an exercise in theorycrafting. Two, you always count as your own ally in Pathfinder.
The solution would really be that this setup allows you to be mostly item-independent for very high defenses, so one could focus a lot more on offense with items, (bracers of the avenging knight, silver smite bracelet, and champion's banner come to mind), and on top of this each further cavalier level (and the chain challenge feat) is gonna add another 2 static damage to your attacks, making you a more effective damage dealer as a game progresses, though with the lack of pounce that plagues daring champions in general.
I guess he's talking about how Draconic Defender calls out placing yourself between your enemy and its target. Or how Blundering Defense is used to distract your opponents from your allies. I mean, at least with that one, I kind could see you flailing wildly in a dragons face, and it not being sure how to react. "ARE YOU ALRIGHT? SERIOUSLY, IF I'M GOING TO CATCH MAD HALFER DISEASE FROM EATING YOU, I COULD JUST MELT YOU WITH ACID INSTEAD."
Yet, honestly, even withthe feats not working the way you meant them to work, you're still kicking around a 45 (possibly as low as 39) AC at level 8. Which means that your average 11th level BBEG with a high attack bonus just needs a measly NATURAL 20 (or 14, but still) to hit you. Therefore, from a theorycrafting standpoint, you really don't need to bring that AC up with draconic defender (or possibly even Blundering Defense) anyway.
Now, on the other hand, if you wanted to stand next to the 8th level AM BARBARIAN or Wizard specializing in the School of Save or Suck, adding your +16 to their AC would be in the realm of making sure your opponent has plenty of reason to hate you, and well within the rules.
Now go! Tank some Adult Green Dragons! Seriously, they're CR 12 and still need a 15 or better to hit you when they, and they need a natural 20 to hit with a power attack.
Yeah, you might want to re-check that, buddy.One, the point was mostly an exercise in theorycrafting. Two, you always count as your own ally in Pathfinder.
"You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible."
Is the contention that this would fall under the "makes no sense" bit? I'm not sure how.
Some abilities are obviously written to help teammates(people who are not you). In those cases you do not get to benefit from you own abilities.
In this case the feat's flavor and mechanics do not support it helping "you".
You have a knack for placing yourself between your enemies and those they wish to harm.Prerequisite: Con 17, Toughness
Benefit: During your action, designate an ally within your reach. When you fight defensively or use Combat Expertise, your ally gains a natural armor bonus to AC equal to the dodge bonus you gain from fighting defensively or Combat Expertise. You can select a new ally on any action. Allies who move out of your reach lose this natural armor bonus.
I am the first to say flavor is not the rules, but they can give a hint toward the intention of the rule.
Don't expect for a GM to allow this to work on "you" at his table.
What about Blundering Defense. Does that work on you, or just your allies?
Hardly a wreck. It's still a +5 Luck to all adjacent allies AC and CMD, with an additional +11 Natural Armor to a single ally within reach. If you are teamed up with, as I mentioned, the AM BARBARIAN and Save-or-Suck the Wizardous, this is a more than terrifying build.
What about Blundering Defense. Does that work on you, or just your allies?
As a GM I would read that to only apply to other people also.
Yeah, I'm kind of sick of these "you count as your own ally" abuse memes.
Especially given the FAQ calls out that it isn't meant to be applied 100% as if "RAW" whatever.
These examples all pretty much include in the same sentence a reference explicit or implicit to yourself and allies as distinct persons,
which pretty clearly shuts down the function of the FAQ, which is never about letting you be treated as two distinct characters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
>Some abilities are obviously written to help teammates(people who are not you). In those cases you do not get to benefit from you own abilities.
Burn the haters!
Just agree with a friend to make two brother halflings with the same builds. Best frontline ever, and you would grant some ridiculous AC to your friendly wizard if he ever needs to come close.
EDIT:or, better yet, his summons.
You could mix 3 levels of Warlock in there. At 3rd level, your Mystic blast are hitting touch AC 1/rd.
If you're not contributing to damage/ending the fight sooner then you are pretty useless in combat.
If you stop people from dying then you're still pretty useless, but you maybe save some of the cleanup work.
Crane Wing does not actually increase your bonus for fighting defensively, it just gives you a separate dodge bonus to AC, at least by the way I read the feat.
Crane Wing (Combat)
Benefit: When fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks. If a melee attack misses you by 4 or less, you lose this dodge bonus until the beginning of your next turn.
If you using the total defense action instead, you can deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
Blundering Defense does not work cause you cannot be adjacent to yourself.
Draconic Defender does work by RAW I will concede that, but it is obviously against the intent of the feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Draconic Defender does work by RAW I will concede that, but it is obviously against the intent of the feat.
Doesn't work by RAW either, because you don't count as your own ally if that wouldn't make sense in the context. That's official rules.
I'm truly surprised that no one seems to be able to make sense out of the idea that fighting defensively can improve your defenses. Seems pretty intuitive to me.
I don't think that's disputed or surprising? The problem is that often it isn't useful.
|
How does this qualify for Draconic Defender with a CON of 9 when you need 17?
You have a knack for placing yourself between your enemies and those they wish to harm.
Prerequisite: Con 17, Toughness
Benefit: During your action, designate an ally within your reach. When you fight defensively or use Combat Expertise, your ally gains a natural armor bonus to AC equal to the dodge bonus you gain from fighting defensively or Combat Expertise. You can select a new ally on any action. Allies who move out of your reach lose this natural armor bonus.
The build puts the numbers before the stats. It has Con 17 and Int 8.
Check the stat-line again. It starts with 10 Str, not Str 10.
I'm truly surprised that no one seems to be able to make sense out of the idea that fighting defensively can improve your defenses. Seems pretty intuitive to me.I don't think that's disputed or surprising? The problem is that often it isn't useful.Draconic Defender gives an ally (you count as your own) a natural armor bonus... on top of this we have the new Blundering Defense luck bonus to ACthat wouldn't make sense
You have a knack for placing yourself between your enemies and those they wish to harm.
Generally rules trumps flavor text, but in this case it gives very clear intent.
Yeah, it IS pretty hard to place yourself between yourself and those who mean you harm.
fantastically cheap way to get Nat ARmor AC if it worked, better then the Beast Totem rage power!
==Aelryinth
Anyone can use parts of their body as barriers to prevent their enemies from harming them. That's what blocking in unarmed combat is all about. Anyway, FAQs are about mechanics. If you don't like the flavor of an ability, that's between you and your GM.
That's nice, dear. Try that with live bladed weapons swung with intent to harm some day.
I can see that exchange now.
"He's swinging at me!"
"I'm going to block with my body so he doesn't hit my body!"
"He hit your body! It hurts! You take damage!"
"Hey, but I was blocking with my body!"
"Well, duh!"
==Aelryinth