Hi there,
One of my groups consists of all gnomes/halflings and they use riding dogs to charge into adventure. A question has popped up: do those "ordinary" riding dogs (from UE pg.82) level up with the characters like animal companions do?
My players are playing a rogue, a fighter and a shaman, so I know the dogs do not count as animal companions, Eidolons, cohorts or followers, but the players have grown really fond of them.
Have any of you encountered a similar situation? Or do you have any ideas how to rule this?
Thanks!
They are normal riding dogs, and they stay normal riding dogs. Animals don't level up. Animal companions leveling up is a class feature - it doesn't apply to normal animals.
Okay, so how about they invest downtime in training them? Would it be too overpowered for them to let those dogs get the advanced template or somesuch?
Okay, so how about they invest downtime in training them? Would it be too overpowered for them to let those dogs get the advanced template or somesuch?
Wouldn't really help much even if you could. Doesn't change the fact a riding dog is a 2 hit die animal that will die to a single fireball. Normal, non-companion mounts and pets are best left behind out of combat. They are simply too fragile to be of any real use.
Okay, so how about they invest downtime in training them? Would it be too overpowered for them to let those dogs get the advanced template or somesuch?
Yes. That's why animal companions exist as an option.
If you could just buy an upgraded animal there's a lot less reason to play a class with an animal companion.
However, it is valid to buy any animal listed here. Which some are more powerful than others. But they all run the risk of dying and you losing your money.
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You might want to show them the Animal Ally feat. Note that it takes two feats to acquire, and (optionally) a third to remove the "your level -3" part.
Alternatively, as it sounds like you're their GM, you could just give them its benefits (whether for free or as a benefit of downtime spent training). It probably won't break your game too much. ^_^
awaken the dogs and have them take class levels.
If it's just about protecting them, consider figurines of wondrous power.
awaken the dogs and have them take class levels.
This is known as the "Leadership feat".
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Given that this is a home game and everyone is having fun, you can level them up by just adding animal hit dice. You will need to familiarize yourself with the monster building rules, but there is not much to it.
If you give them one hit dice per level they will be close to animal companion strength, so maintaining game balance will take a little fine tuning.
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Our houserule is to have them advance as if they were animal companions... but at half regular progression.
It makes them tough enough to survive a hit or two, but not powerful enough to make the Druid jealous. :D
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WORRIED ABOUT THE TIGER DYING?
Oh well, just kill him and cast a scroll of animate dead on him to turn him into a bloody skeleton Tiger. You won't ever have to worry about him dying again (can't die except by positive energy and has fast healing).
Now here is a question I don't know the answer to, but since you are the GM you would know the answer for your game.
If you awaken a Tiger, kill him, and cast animate dead on him to make him a bloody skeleton - is he an awakened bloody skeleton tiger?
No, he is a bloody skeleton tiger, made from the bones of a formerly awakened tiger.
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But if you use create undead with a dash of enervate in the mix, you can get a bloody skeletal champion awakened tiger. Which gets two extra HD to boot, stacking with the two from awaken! Make sure to maximize/empower the awaken spell to get a good Cha boost!
That said, the baseline Cha of 6 for the tiger makes them glass cannons since barring a lucky roll with Empower on awaken, they have a Cha of 7-9. Expect a charging pounce or two then wait for bloody to get it back together.
A solid choice for skeletonizing is actually the heavy horse. Since pathfinder just applies the advanced template, they have a baseline Cha of 11. Better than almost any other cheap and easily accessible creature.
Regarding the OP, I've seen a houserule (which I had no problem with personally) of spending a week of training and a small fee to grant a pet an extra HD. I would probably use the retraining rules from Ult.Campaign as a price baseline, and likewise implement a cap on how high you could train the HD (like Character level -2 or such, no level 1 animal handlers with 10hd dogs).
We can't "see" the mechanics here in the real world, but I'd beleive police dogs are effectively "higher HD" than regular dogs due to their training. I don't think tricks alone can justify the difference between a "civilian" german shepherd and a police trained one.
Awaken in part says,awaken the dogs and have them take class levels.This is known as the "Leadership feat".You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal's current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. If you cast awaken again, any previously awakened creatures remain friendly to you, but they no longer undertake tasks for you unless it is in their best interests.So you don't even need the Leadership Feat. You do have to be able to cast awaken though, since the benefit seems to only go to the person who cast the spell. Use Magic Device + a scroll maybe?
You do if you want to "control" it like an animal companion. That line effectively says "new NPC is friendly to you, it will help like a charmed NPC" which is a completely different situation, opposed to a loyal and always around animal companion/follower from Leadership. Basically it is around and the GM runs it, not you and there is no "staying power" to said creature, it isn't going to be or meant to be around indefinitely.
Or are you suggesting that one spell renders a rather powerful feat redundant and useless?
But if you use create undead with a dash of enervate in the mix, you can get a bloody skeletal champion awakened tiger. Which gets two extra HD to boot, stacking with the two from awaken! Make sure to maximize/empower the awaken spell to get a good Cha boost!
That said, the baseline Cha of 6 for the tiger makes them glass cannons since barring a lucky roll with Empower on awaken, they have a Cha of 7-9. Expect a charging pounce or two then wait for bloody to get it back together.
A solid choice for skeletonizing is actually the heavy horse. Since pathfinder just applies the advanced template, they have a baseline Cha of 11. Better than almost any other cheap and easily accessible creature.
Regarding the OP, I've seen a houserule (which I had no problem with personally) of spending a week of training and a small fee to grant a pet an extra HD. I would probably use the retraining rules from Ult.Campaign as a price baseline, and likewise implement a cap on how high you could train the HD (like Character level -2 or such, no level 1 animal handlers with 10hd dogs).
We can't "see" the mechanics here in the real world, but I'd beleive police dogs are effectively "higher HD" than regular dogs due to their training. I don't think tricks alone can justify the difference between a "civilian" german shepherd and a police trained one.
This is usually covered by templates in game.
Awaken in part says,awaken the dogs and have them take class levels.This is known as the "Leadership feat".You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal's current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. If you cast awaken again, any previously awakened creatures remain friendly to you, but they no longer undertake tasks for you unless it is in their best interests.So you don't even need the Leadership Feat. You do have to be able to cast awaken though, since the benefit seems to only go to the person who cast the spell. Use Magic Device + a scroll maybe?You do if you want to "control" it like an animal companion. That line effectively says "new NPC is friendly to you, it will help like a charmed NPC" which is a completely different situation, opposed to a loyal and always around animal companion/follower from Leadership. Basically it is around and the GM runs it, not you and there is no "staying power" to said creature, it isn't going to be or meant to be around indefinitely.
Or are you suggesting that one spell renders a rather powerful feat redundant and useless?
Well I don't know what the difference is between "controlling something" and the quoted language that says "it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it."
To me there is no difference. The spell says what it says. Plus, you don't "control" a Co-hort, if what you mean by "control" is to dominate them like the Dominate Person spell. After all, Co-horts are NPCs.
What the awakened spell does not say is that the "new NPC is friendly to you, it will...
Intelligent Animals
Source: Animal Archive
One of the surest ways to complicate the relationship between an adventurer and her animal companion is to cast awaken on the beast. The moment the spell takes effect, an animal companion ceases to be a class feature, and instead becomes a person—an NPC whose Intelligence has increased by 3d6 (potentially making it as smart as or smarter than the caster), and who has an increased Charisma score and knows at least one spoken language.
An adventurer considering awakening his animal companion should keep in mind the awaken spell's potential drawbacks. Most pointedly, awakened animals can no longer serve as companions, and the character must follow the rules for Leadership if he wishes to take the animal as an official cohort. Further, an intelligent animal can be difficult to manage. After awakening, animals are predisposed to be friendly toward whoever cast the spell— in this case, presumably their masters. Yet if an animal was mistreated during its time as a companion, or is treated poorly after its awakening, that friendliness is mixed with a sense of confusion that can last anywhere from a few moments to a few hours as the animal reconciles the abuse with the great gift it's been given. Since awaken is not a charm or mind-control spell, there's nothing to prevent awakened animals from resenting mistreatment in the same way a normal person of their intelligence level would, and they're no more inclined to be automatically servile than anyone else. More than one careless druid has found her awakened animal companion refusing to follow instructions, leaving to pursue its own goals, or even seeking vengeance for its former “enslavement.”
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It becomes an NPC, not a slave despite what you think the words mean. It starts out as "friendly", see Diplomacy for what that entails. Obviously enough people have made the same mistake you have and thankfully they have expanded on the complex concept that was forced into a tiny little spell description.