
Silvyr Meoihen |
Currently my party went through a tpk and we're making new characters.
So far we have a barbarian half-ogre, an investigator half-elf, a swashbuckler, and a wizard, with me being the 5th member who hasn't decided what to be.
I will say this, I refuse to be a healer, a support character maybe, but I don't have fun being stuck healing, protecting, etc.
We're level 10 20-points and max rp of 14
I have ideas for a druid, 5 bard/5 shadowdancer, mage of the third eye, a dragon disciple, a Battle Herald, and a mammoth rider (Either 9 levels of barbarian mounted fury, or 10 levels of hunter for the raise animal companion as a spell-like). Any advice on what'll fit in with this odd band of adventurers that be great.

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Healing in Pathfinder really falls more into three functions.
1. Using a wand of cure light wounds or similar spell to restore HP between combats.
2. Buffing.
3. Access to typically expensive restorative/curative spells, such as Raise Dead, Restoration, Remove Sickness, etc.
The thing with all of those, is that you don't really need to have a high save, and therefore only enough in the casting stat to cast the spell. This gives you room for stats in other areas.
You've got three characters that will likely be in melee, and a wizard.
From what you're looking to make currently, it looks like you want something that's going to be going up in melee as well.

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Looks like your party is seriously lacking in divine magic.
Now, I know you said you don't want to be a dedicated healer, and that's fine, but there are other divine spells out there that are very useful. Lesser restoration, restoration, remove curse are all things you can do out of combat that will really help your party out, and you can still murder things in combat or whatever.
Actually, you know what might work well? A spiritualist. They get access to some great spells, plus restoration, remove curse, stuff like that. They have the cure spells on their list so you can use wands out of combat, and you have a combat pet.
Let me just say, as the guy who has been forced to be 'the healer' one time too often, I understand your frustrations, but picking up some healing on the side for emergency situations might not be a bad thing. Now, I'm not saying 'be a life oracle channel monster' but eschewing any healing might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just a thought.

baahk36 |

I'd personally go with an oracle. You can get the healing spells by default but you can really tailor your spell choices to be whatever you want to be. Depending on your mystery and spell choices you could be a front line fighter, a blaster, a controller, a buffer. Really whatever you want. I'd talk with the guy playing the wizard and see what role he is planning on filling and then you can build to compliment.
Druid can also be a good choice. Again they are a flexible class with the added benefit of being able to change your spells every day.

Gulthor |

Of the classes you've listed, I think druid is going to be the best option. Extremely versatile, plenty of heals on their spell list (even if only to be able to use wands out of combat.)
Given how clearly you expressed yourself regarding playing a healer, the following probably won't interest you, but just to put it out there...
Since you're starting *at* level 10, though, might I suggest an oradin? Paladin 6/Oracle 4 means you get to play like a paladin for the most part, but life linking with the party and only swift actions to heal yourself helps keep everyone going - yourself included (I have another thread going on here as something I'm considering for an upcoming character.)
Starting straight at 10 means skipping all the typical awkward oradin leveling bits and getting straight to the powerhouse part of the build (upwards of 15+ daily uses of 8d6+22 lay on hands if looking to optimize LoH healing, coupled with 8+ uses of 6d6 (+12 self) channel energy and another 6+ uses of 7d6 (+14 self) channel energy.

Darksol the Painbringer |

Druid would perhaps be the best bet if you want to shy away from healing, as their delayed healing progression and lack of healing class features means they don't make the best healers. Although only 3/4 BAB, with the ability to Wild Shape and increase their statistics that way, they are certainly able to do some good. (My group is too stupid to understand this, but that's their problem, not mine.)
The best part is, since you will not be primarily casting (if you are, it will be buffs, utility, and summoning most likely), this means that having maybe a 14 or 16 Wisdom is good enough. The only feats you should need for a Battle Druid are Power Attack and Natural Spell (for buffing and/or summoning), meaning if you're up for it, taking a variant multiclassing option like Barbarian (Rage is some good stuff), or Fighter (for Armor and Weapon Training) may be a good idea to further shore up being a 3/4 BAB.
My suggestion is Duergar Druid with some Barbarian VMC (primarily because as a Duergar, it's best to be wearing the heavier armors, whereas others would take a Monk dip for Wisdom to AC). I'd suggest an archetype, but to be honest they all kind of suck. The Shaman archetypes might be worth it, depending on your build, though eventually Wildshape will just outweigh its benefits, since some of the aspect benefits you get from it are good, and some allow you access to some nifty domains you might not otherwise take, but not being able to use those benefits when Wildshaped and having to delay your Wildshape progression sucks. Your stats should look something like this at 10th level, presuming some +2 headbands and belts:
Strength 22 (18 + 2 Belt + 2 Level)
Dexterity 12
Constitution 18 (14 + 2 Belt + 2 Racial)
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 16 (12 + 2 Racial + 2 Headband)
Charisma 3 (7 - 4 Racial)
You can just go with a regular Dwarf if the 3 Charisma is off-putting, but you will be losing out on strong SLAs and valuable immunities if you do. There isn't a whole lot of stuff that does Charisma damage near as I can tell, so you'd be really unlucky if you ran into something that does.
Since you won't be particularly spell-focused, I'd suggest grabbing the Animal Companion. One of the more prominent Druid guides recommends a Tiger or Lion, primarily due to having a lot of attacks, plus Pounce and Grabs, which if successful, make enemies easier to hit, and provides a flank buddy. The problem I have with Animal Companions are that they slow the game down some, and they can honestly be fairly expendable, and quite easily against CR-relevant enemies or bosses.
Your feat choices will be Power Attack at 1st, Natural Spell at 5th, and perhaps Multiattack at 9th (if not, I'd take Raging Vitality, since you can rage for 14 rounds per day, and that gives you even more hit points to utilize). You'll have access to Rage and Uncanny Dodge. At 11th level, you'll be able to choose a Rage Power, and you can select the Extra Rage Power feats at that point. My suggestion would be Reckless Abandon, so you basically transfer your to-hit penalty as an AC penalty when you Power Attack. There is also the Reckless Rage feat, which basically makes your Power Attack one step stronger than normal for its bonuses and penalties.
If you're worried about Rage Rounds in combat, you can take the Extra Rage feat, which gives you an additional 6 rounds of Rage. You will only have 5 feats, and you have a fairly strong amount of Constitution, so I wouldn't worry about the Extra Rage feat.
As for equipment, you don't particularly need a weapon, though you can invest in a Heavy Darkwood Shield if you wish (I personally wouldn't until later in the game, but it's your call). Your funds will probably be tied up with an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, which is okay since you can cast the Ironskin spell on yourself, which scales better than an Amulet of Natural Armor. You'll want to invest in either Dragonhide Full Plate, or just plain old Stoneplate, preferably with the Wild property so you can maintain its AC (the same goes for your Shield, if you plan to use it). Stoneplate is a little cheaper and more thematically appropriate for your character, but also weighs 75 pounds. You'll have 62,000 gold available to you at level 10.
With +1 Wild Stoneplate, +1 Ring of Protection, and a +3 Cloak of Resistance, you're already looking at 27,000 gold spent. You'll have enough money for a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists (16,000 gold), a +2 Strength/+2 Constitution Belt (10,000), and a +2 Wisdom Headband (4,000), for a total of 59,000 gold, leaving you 3,000 gold to do whatever. You'll want items with constant benefits, as selecting use-activated items will not work when Wildshaped. To that end, I'd recommend the Feather Step Slippers, so you can always be in a position to 5-foot if you need to cast a spell or move out of something (because difficult terrain always sucks). Another alternative is the Boots of the Cat, if you like the whole "Death from Above" approach, without the "Death" part being equally applicable to you via fall damage.
Lastly, Skills. You'll have 3 Skill Points per level, thanks to your Favored Class Bonus. (I'd put them into hit points, so you can be extremely overbearing, but quite frankly the skills are more valuable to you.) Thankfully, these will be straight forward: Survival, Handle Animal, and Knowledge (Nature). That's about all a Druid needs to invest in skills. This list will expand when you decide to add Intelligence to the Headband.
Your basic to-hit and damage while Raging and Wildshaped should be at +16 (7 Base + 10 Strength + 2 Enhancement - 2 Power Attack - 1 Size) for 19.5 damage per attack (3.5 Dice + 10 Strength + 4 Power Attack + 2 Enhancement), or 58.5 damage per round. If you take a Dire Tiger, you'll be able to Pounce, and get 3 attacks off with an extra +2 to hit, all at your highest BAB, and each with a Grab attempt. Your Animal Companion, while it won't be as effective, can still contribute a similar amount of damage with a lower to-hit.
Your AC with Ironskin while Wildshaped will be at 28 (10 Base + 9 Armor + 9 Natural + 1 Deflection - 1 Size). Not particularly powerful, though this will take some time (and money) to become better. Your base AC is actually only 21 (10 Base + 9 Armor + 1 Deflection + 1 Dexterity), with Ironskin adjusting it to 26. HP will be (8 X 1 + 4.5 X 9 + 4 X 10 = 8 + 40 + 40 =) ~88, which increases to 108 when Raging (or 118 with Raging Vitality). Saves will be Fort 14, Reflex 7, Will 13, which are fairly well-rounded, though not exactly great. An optimized spellcaster's general DC will be ~24 (10 + 5 spell level + 9 modifier [5 Base + 3 Headband + 1 Levels]), which means you're breaking even with Fortitude (10+), you're slightly uneven with Will (11+), and your Reflex will be extremely lacking (17+).

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

I think you need a BAB of +1 for Power Attack.
I think a good battle druid build would be a "fake reach cleric" build with a longspear (druids get longspear, right?).
1. Combat Reflexes
3. Power Attack
5. Natural Spell
For low levels, use longspear and summon or whatever.
At higher levels, wildshape (and you can use Combat Reflexes if you have a form with reach)
For an animal companion, I like the wardog. In 3.5, they came with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They get one attack with a trip attempt, so they're quick to run and "de-buff" opponents (+6 to hit flanked prone opponents!). I built a 3.5 wardog companion with Spring Attack with the highest AC in the party, so it was very hearty. I ran the druid from levels 1-16 and only had 3 or 4 animal companions, and one of those was a "loaner" tiger from a dead NPC druid (weird situation).

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You do need a bab of +1 for power attack, heavy armor proficiency would probably be a better feat for level 1, even if it won't pay off for a while. Also druids aren't usually proficient with long spears, despite being proficient with both the spear, and the short spear. In fact, there are no reach weapons on the druids proficiency list (it's a short list), but there are a couple great weapons in the scimitar or scythe, all depending on whether you want to go sword and board or 2 hand with your brute druid.
But all this is kind of irrelevant considering the OP is starting at level 10, meaning wild shape is the go to combat form. Personally I feel like this is actually getting towards the dusk of the combat druids effectiveness. I'm currently playing a wild shape focused druid at level 14, and the power level, and ability to keep up with dedicated melee characters really starts to drop off at this point. Not to say that the build is bad, but it's not really dominant like in the early levels when you hit nearly as hard as the fighter, and can have an animal companion that's near indestructible to help flank for you, or the rogue if you've got one.
At 12th level you're going to get the last boost to wild shaping, you're going to be struggling to decide what to spend your money on, because you don't really have enough to keep both you and the animal companion relevant, short of using every available spell slot for animal growth and atavism, and you're going to want more spell slots because you're finally getting some really good spells, like freedom of movement for the wizard (has saved our bacon more than I like to admit).
Now, VMCing in barbarian can help keep up accuracy and damage, but since VMCing wasn't an option for me, I went the celestial obedience (Falayna) route, which does a couple things, first it improves your grapple CMB and CMD by 4, which, considering you have a bunch of forms with grab, means you're a lot more likely to grapple something. Second thing it does is, at level 12, gives you divine favor as a spell like ability 3 times per day. If you can combine it with quicken spell like ability at level 13, you have basically 3 fights a day where you're getting better than rage bonuses to attack and damage, requiring only a swift action to activate. Combine with frostbite or vine strike and you're usually doing alright, but probably not quite as good as either the barbarian or swashbuckler... which is why I suggest you also consider looking at the casting druid.
Caster druids should really be coming into their own around this point. They're finally getting some really nice spells like the wall spells, flame strike, baleful polymorph, transmute rock to mud, stoneskin, or any of the really handy communal spells like resist energy, protection from energy, or air walk. And you're just about to get some really great spells in the next couple levels, especially when you get to the level 7 spells. Now, I should mention that they also have a lot of really good buff spells, and they can do just fine casting spells without any saves, but having even 1 or 2 more spells at their highest level can make a big difference.
Either way, you'll still have a pretty good character, capable of healing while not focusing on it, being able to contribute in combat, and also likely being one of the better scouts in the game, simply through wildshaping into something with a good movement type or a small/tiny shape for bonuses to stealth, and that's if you're not just casting scrying to do your scouting for you.

Trekkie90909 |
Halfling Cavalier with the bodyguard feat (order of the dragon is a good choice with this) is a rather good frontline-supporter, and it sets up mammoth rider excellently (mammoth rider makes your mount a big target, so it helps to have an ability which can protect it 1+dex mod times per round). Very efficient at 2 feats and a trait (helpful), and it's highly flexible since you can do your own thing (tanking/dps/mounted stuff) with minor opportunity cost, or buff a team-mate(s) with a 4+ on their checks; it's worth noting that since aid-another explicitly stacks with itself, you can use your standard action + bodyguard to give double this bonus against the first attack made against one ally every round, so you can mitigate a lot of damage that way, there's also a feat which lets you aid-another as a swift action.
There are further feats/classes you can get into to really super-optimize it (I think it maxes out somewhere around a +25 AC against the first attack, with others being around +10), but if you're looking for a good start to mammoth rider, this is a simple and fun way to do it.
Edit: An aether- or hydro-kineticist can be another good option if you want versatility between healing and damage (they have access to the kinetic-healer wild talent and fairly strong elemental defenses; I'd go geo-kineticist at level 7 and pick up the expanded defense wild talent for the NICE dr). The kinetic chirurgeon would be a strong archetype for this as it gives access to paladin mercies (very, very helpful), but it does give up infusions (basically crowd control) for that; one of the strong points of this archetype is it would let you remove the fatigued condition from your barbarian friend, so he can rage-cycle and pick up some of the more OP rage powers. Paladin would also let you do that of course, and be a better melee or mounted option in many respects.
Another option might be to go for something like an oracle, which is versatile enough to fit pretty much any party role (even a limited-arcane), but you'll want to make clear what type of oracle you're playing up-front.

HyperMissingno |

How much can you tell us about the other party members? What school the wizard's specializing in and what the investigator's doing are rather important things to consider in this. If the investigator has infusion then they can handle some of the healing with extracts like lesser restoration and the remove trinity, though not all of it.

TwelvePointFivePercent |
I'd personally go with an oracle. You can get the healing spells by default but you can really tailor your spell choices to be whatever you want to be. Depending on your mystery and spell choices you could be a front line fighter, a blaster, a controller, a buffer. Really whatever you want. I'd talk with the guy playing the wizard and see what role he is planning on filling and then you can build to compliment.
Druid can also be a good choice. Again they are a flexible class with the added benefit of being able to change your spells every day.
Ehh, to do your job as an out of combat healer probably, you'd need to pick
2nd: Lesser Restoration
3rd: Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease
4th: Restoration
5th: Break Enchantment
That's more spells known that I'd personally feel comfortable spending on healing. If you want to do the off-healer thing, do druid or cleric. That way you can prepare them after you find out you need them instead of having to lug them around all the time when you don't.

Melkiador |

Ehh, to do your job as an out of combat healer probably, you'd need to pick2nd: Lesser Restoration
3rd: Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease
4th: Restoration
5th: Break EnchantmentThat's more spells known that I'd personally feel comfortable spending on healing. If you want to do the off-healer thing, do druid or cleric. That way you can prepare them after you find out you need them instead of having to lug them around all the time when you don't.
All of those could be covered by keeping enough scrolls around. If you go with a spirit guide oracle, you could pick up the most used ones with a day of rest to choose the life spirit.

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Lots of people are suggesting divine characters, but have you considered playing a bard? With all those melee characters, wouldn't it be great to have inspire courage? The nice thing about inspire courage is that it also pumps up your stats, helping you do meaningful damage. Plus you have one of the best skill lists in the game and a pretty decent spell list. You can even pick a little bit of healing magic (although none of the really good status affect removers, unfortunately).

Darksol the Painbringer |

You do need a bab of +1 for power attack, heavy armor proficiency would probably be a better feat for level 1, even if it won't pay off for a while. Also druids aren't usually proficient with long spears, despite being proficient with both the spear, and the short spear. In fact, there are no reach weapons on the druids proficiency list (it's a short list), but there are a couple great weapons in the scimitar or scythe, all depending on whether you want to go sword and board or 2 hand with your brute druid.
But all this is kind of irrelevant considering the OP is starting at level 10, meaning wild shape is the go to combat form. Personally I feel like this is actually getting towards the dusk of the combat druids effectiveness. I'm currently playing a wild shape focused druid at level 14, and the power level, and ability to keep up with dedicated melee characters really starts to drop off at this point. Not to say that the build is bad, but it's not really dominant like in the early levels when you hit nearly as hard as the fighter, and can have an animal companion that's near indestructible to help flank for you, or the rogue if you've got one.
At 12th level you're going to get the last boost to wild shaping, you're going to be struggling to decide what to spend your money on, because you don't really have enough to keep both you and the animal companion relevant, short of using every available spell slot for animal growth and atavism, and you're going to want more spell slots because you're finally getting some really good spells, like freedom of movement for the wizard (has saved our bacon more than I like to admit).
Now, VMCing in barbarian can help keep up accuracy and damage, but since VMCing wasn't an option for me, I went the celestial obedience (Falayna) route, which does a couple things, first it improves your grapple CMB and CMD by 4, which, considering you have a bunch of forms with grab, means you're a lot more likely to grapple something. Second thing it does is, at level 12, gives you...
Druids are proficient with all armor, just can't wear anything metal. That's why Dragonhide and Stoneplate are very commonly made for Druids (Stoneplate for Dwarven Druids, actually, which is what I suggested).
Caster Druids are kind of meh. They can't feasibly do a lot of damage sans Flame Strike due to having to counteract resistances all the time, and that begins to fall off in the following levels. The higher level spells aren't really much better, and will still run into the same problems as before, except on a much worse scale, up to and including immunities. Even varying your spells to account for a wide array of resistances and immunities won't do you too much good, as resistances to the primary 4 elements will be common (usually 10+), and immunities to one or more of them will begin to show up. A lot of other blasting types can easily vary their damage types to deal with no resistance or immunities on their staple spells, without having to dig through some random 3PP book to find a spell that functions as their staple, but does X damage instead. Sure, Damage Reduction will also be an issue, but at least when you get the gold, you can easily counteract that with little to no hassle; the only Damage Reduction you have to deal with is DR/-, and unless you're a Paladin fighting an Evil creature, or a Fighter with Greater Penetrating Strike (which only reduces that amount, not negates it), so will everyone else.
The three things that extremely limit a Combat Druid's effectiveness are A. Lack of To-Hit/Damage Buffing (seriously, outside of Greater Magic Fang and Strong Jaw, Druids have zero offensive buffing), B. Lack of strong Combat forms past level 6 (this might be false, due to the release of new beastiaries, but quite frankly, there haven't been any sort of animals catching our eyes outside of what's mentioned in Treantmonk's Guide, so I'm inclined to believe that a Dire Tiger is perhaps the best form to ever take with your Wild Shape outside of niche situations), and C. Lack of Full BAB (which can't be shored up in any way, and is a curse to help "balance" being a full spellcaster, albeit with an awful spell list). A lot of the Druid's spells are usually niche utility stuff, and the other lot are damaging, status effect cures, or some form of weird control that can't work right half the time anyway.
Granted, there are some things a Druid can do that general beatsticks can't thanks to their spellcasting, it's just I don't see the benefit of optimizing towards that something when the optimization I've currently provided him is more than enough to reach the same amount of effectiveness than if he actually had a higher Wisdom score.

Silvyr Meoihen |
Lots of people are suggesting divine characters, but have you considered playing a bard? With all those melee characters, wouldn't it be great to have inspire courage? The nice thing about inspire courage is that it also pumps up your stats, helping you do meaningful damage. Plus you have one of the best skill lists in the game and a pretty decent spell list. You can even pick a little bit of healing magic (although none of the really good status affect removers, unfortunately).
I suggested two ideas that involved bard levels. Bard/shadowdancer and battle herald(cavalier bard)

Trekkie90909 |
It's occurred to me that none of us have really taken up your mage of the third eye idea; I'd recommend seeing if your GM would let you play the occultist from occult adventures; the divination implement in particular is well-suited to the idea, and you could talk to the GM about letting you use it as your 'arcane' parent class -- it's another class which is very versatile.

Silvyr Meoihen |
Since you're starting *at* level 10, though, might I suggest an oradin? Paladin 6/Oracle 4 means you get to play like a paladin for the most part, but life linking with the party and only swift actions to heal yourself helps keep everyone going - yourself included (I have another thread going on here as something I'm considering for an upcoming character.)
I looked at that. That's sorta how our previous healer played, except did 2 paladin/X Oracle. She did a lot of things with Sanctuary.