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Hello.
doing modification (aint we all!) to some classes and stuff for my own Stone-Age world/setting/campaign/settings.
a)I feel ONLY fighters should have a +1 BAB.
Barbarians have a 3/4 BAB like Clerics etc. what do you feel I should give them to compensate for this (I have my own thoughts but I'd love to see you ideas)
b) I feel Rage and the bonuses it grants should have a chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable element to them, not just the flat "+2 hit and damage" that we all quote. How would you introduce this to the class feature "Rage"?
Thanks,
Morlaf (The bringer of Chaos)
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Why do you want to do this?
How do you want your game to feel?
Decide these things before deciding what the mechanic will be, instead of making a mechanic and trying to justify it.
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I have already decided these things as well as the atmosphere of the game etc. I just did not want to bore ppl with things that do not interest them and data they do not need in order to answer my question.
but since you ask here is a brief....
Fighters are trains in combat. And by that i mean: TRAINED!
Barbarians are a primal force. as thus their combat training is limited.
hence their 3/4 BAB. but they do tap into energies most ppl do not. and that is the ferocious, untamable, unpredictable force of Nature and Life.
As thus Rage brings about other changes: Increased speed, natural armour, more hp, area attacks, extra attacks, FH, DR, SR, ignore wound penalties, etc, etc, etc...........
Was asking for SPECIFICALLY what do you recon balances out a drop in BAB (that was a) and how you feel the chaotic, unpredictable nature of Rage is best manifested (while maintaining game balance).
Thanks,
Morlaf
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I'm not sure I'm quite on the same page as you here, but you could try giving Barbarians full BAB during their rage, and 3/4 BAB when they're not raging?
If you're making no other changes to the class, I'd say even granting them a Monk's Flurry progression while raging (usable with whatever weapons) but only 3/4 BAB normally. That would make them much more of a Nova class, but it balances out a fairly big nerf with a fairly big buff. (Depending on how you play this may just end up being a buff though).
I have already decided these things as well as the atmosphere of the game etc. I just did not want to bore ppl with things that do not interest them and data they do not need in order to answer my question.
but since you ask here is a brief....
Fighters are trains in combat. And by that i mean: TRAINED!
Barbarians are a primal force. as thus their combat training is limited.
hence their 3/4 BAB. but they do tap into energies most ppl do not. and that is the ferocious, untamable, unpredictable force of Nature and Life.
As thus Rage brings about other changes: Increased speed, natural armour, more hp, area attacks, extra attacks, FH, DR, SR, ignore wound penalties, etc, etc, etc...........Was asking for SPECIFICALLY what do you recon balances out a drop in BAB (that was a) and how you feel the chaotic, unpredictable nature of Rage is best manifested (while maintaining game balance).
Thanks,
Morlaf
When you say barbarians receive no training you mean in your own setting right? Because the general idea of barbarians not training is rediculous. Norse berserkers whom a lot of the barbarian stereotypes came from trained from a young age to fight. They just augmented their abilities with drugs. The difference would be that fighters are proffesionals who focus on nothing but fighting where barbarians are a sort of primitive militia
Sorry about that. History is kinda my thing. Something youight find interesting is the chance for a barbarian to be unable to tell friend from foe. Perhaps give a percentage chance where they lose control and attack anything made out of matter.
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The simplest answer of what to give them in return for reducing their BAB- just give them more strength bonus in rage. +2 str for every BAB lost. That gives the same basic attack as full BAB with regular rage.
Sure, more damage from 2 handing, but that mostly serves to make up for the lost power attack from going 3/4 BAB. +7 vs. +6.
So that lets you mix things up by making feats more difficult, while keeping the overall balance despite a few hiccups.
thanks, Mr. Charisma. I like the idea of extra attacks while raging.
I'd like to know what a Nova Class is, though.
I got the "big nerf" and "big buff" but what is a Nova class?
Nova classes are ones that can deal a large amount of damage in a short amount of time through the use of a relatively limited resources.
Paladins could be considered a nova class. They get 1 to 7 smites per day, and they get up to +20 damage on every single hit on the target of their smite. So they can take down a boss VERY quickly, but they might end up being troubled facing a large number of fights against mooks, since he wants to save his smites for major targets.
In this case, by placing more of his attack roll into rage, you make it more 'all or nothing'. A paladin can still do somewhat well since they have full BAB. But by giving him 3/4 BAB, your barbarians would be as weak as core rogues when they aren't raging (heck- maybe weaker- rogues can at least flank and get sneak attack; possibly even feint and handle things alone).
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You misunderstand BAB and the fighters training. BAB is a representation of how well you fight. Barbarians have full BAB because they spend a lot of time fighting and killing. Paladins have full BAB because they spend their whole lives fighting undead, demons, and devils. Fighters have full BAB because they spend their whole lives training to fight.
These different methods of achieving full BAB are represented by their class features. The barbarians rage, because they kill so much they start to lose it. The paladins smite, because hes so good at killing things that the powers of law and good decide to aid him. The fighters training is represented with weapon and armour training. As well as the additional training(feats)they gain as they level up.
From a balance point of view a 3/4 BAB class cannot keep up with full BAB without expending resources. Barb would also lose access to the quick power attack progression, which doesn't make much sense comparing the flavour of the class tot he flavour of the feat. Full BAB while raging is probably the best way to go about doing this, but the issue with that is that it only matters in the early levels because after that the barb is raging every combat. It would only delay feat progression, which hurts a mundane martial with no spellcasting at all. Throwing 3/4 BAB on top of that will be very hard to keep the class competitive with even something like the rogue as they lose their in combat ability and aren't gaining elsewhere.
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BAB gives you three things:
1. Higher to-hit bonus.
2. More Attacks
3. Faster access to feats.
What aspects of BAB do you want too reduce, what to keep ?
E.g. it would be possible to give them free weapon focus and greater weapon focus for free if you want them to keep up with the fighters to hit bonus.
If you want to focus on the "training" aspect of the fighter, may I suggest giving them free haste during rage ? They would qualify for feats later and dont have the same to hit bonus, but they would keep up in martial prowess, which is the barbs role.
Don't forget:
4. Better power attack. With 2 handing, it is 6 damage at the end.But from the sounds of it, he wants to limit 3, since he compares the barbarian with the fighter.
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Hello.
doing modification (aint we all!) to some classes and stuff for my own Stone-Age world/setting/campaign/settings.
a)I feel ONLY fighters should have a +1 BAB.
Barbarians have a 3/4 BAB like Clerics etc. what do you feel I should give them to compensate for this (I have my own thoughts but I'd love to see you ideas)
b) I feel Rage and the bonuses it grants should have a chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable element to them, not just the flat "+2 hit and damage" that we all quote. How would you introduce this to the class feature "Rage"?Thanks,
Morlaf (The bringer of Chaos)
I would respond to this by never playing a barbarian in your campaigns.
This is horrible idea that nerfs the character.
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Thanks all - you've given me plenty to think about.
I will probably keep the BAB = 1 as it is so inextricably linked with the entire game mechanic that to change it I would have to basically design a whole new system. I will probably give them a flat penalty to hit while Raging and try to compensate with other stuff (have mentioned some of them already)
The simplest answer of what to give them in return for reducing their BAB- just give them more strength bonus in rage. +2 str for every BAB lost. That gives the same basic attack as full BAB with regular rage.
Sure, more damage from 2 handing, but that mostly serves to make up for the lost power attack from going 3/4 BAB. +7 vs. +6.
So that lets you mix things up by making feats more difficult, while keeping the overall balance despite a few hiccups.
thanks, Mr. Charisma. I like the idea of extra attacks while raging.
I'd like to know what a Nova Class is, though.
I got the "big nerf" and "big buff" but what is a Nova class?Nova classes are ones that can deal a large amount of damage in a short amount of time through the use of a relatively limited resources.
Paladins could be considered a nova class. They get 1 to 7 smites per day, and they get up to +20 damage on every single hit on the target of their smite. So they can take down a boss VERY quickly, but they might end up being troubled facing a large number of fights against mooks, since he wants to save his smites for major targets.
In this case, by placing more of his attack roll into rage, you make it more 'all or nothing'. A paladin can still do somewhat well since they have full BAB. But by giving him 3/4 BAB, your barbarians would be as weak as core rogues when they aren't raging (heck- maybe weaker- rogues can at least flank and get sneak attack; possibly even feint and handle things alone).
Yeah Nova refers to doing "burst damage". In essence the Fighter is the ultimate antithesis to a Nova class. Their abilities are on all day, and as long as they have some way of recovering HP between fights, they're as strong at the end of the day as they were in the morning.
Most classes however, have abilities that can only be used a few times per day. They can't use them in every fight, but when they do they're much more powerful.The most commonly seen class for this is probably the stereotypical Shocking-Grasp-Magus. They use spells & Arcane Pool to do huge damage, but their limited spells per day & other resources mean that if they don't manage their resources carefully they quickly run out & become a lot less useful.
The origin comes from STARS, where a Nova refers to a star that shines twice as bright, but burns out twice as quickly.
Lemeres I like your idea of giving bonus STR to make up for lack of BAB progression - Simple, yet very effective way of offsetting the reduced BAB.
Thanks all - you've given me plenty to think about.
I will probably keep the BAB = 1 as it is so inextricably linked with the entire game mechanic that to change it I would have to basically design a whole new system. I will probably give them a flat penalty to hit while Raging and try to compensate with other stuff (have mentioned some of them already)
I think rather than doing this it might be a good idea to just buff the fighter. Most people on the boards seem to think that the fighter is fairly underpowered. Partly because theoretically any full BAB character can achieve nearly anything a Fighter can (although fighters can specialise and do it a bit better), and partly because outside of combat they don't really have any options.
Between their complete lack of non-combat abilities & their lousy skill point progression they're really only useful in combat. I'm not really sure how to fix this (although upping their skill points to 4+Int/level would help a lot)... Maybe give them a high Will save progression too?Heh, you could give fighters Catch Off Guard & Throw Anything at level 1 for free? Doesn't really add anything to their power but it makes it a more fun class before your feats get going.
I have already decided these things as well as the atmosphere of the game etc. I just did not want to bore ppl with things that do not interest them and data they do not need in order to answer my question.
but since you ask here is a brief....
Fighters are trains in combat. And by that i mean: TRAINED!
Barbarians are a primal force. as thus their combat training is limited.
hence their 3/4 BAB. but they do tap into energies most ppl do not. and that is the ferocious, untamable, unpredictable force of Nature and Life.
As thus Rage brings about other changes: Increased speed, natural armour, more hp, area attacks, extra attacks, FH, DR, SR, ignore wound penalties, etc, etc, etc...........Was asking for SPECIFICALLY what do you recon balances out a drop in BAB (that was a) and how you feel the chaotic, unpredictable nature of Rage is best manifested (while maintaining game balance).
Thanks,
Morlaf
Other 3/4 classes have spells, such as the bloodrager, and SR is a trap. I would give it away for free if I ever got to play a drow or if I decided to play a monk.
Honestly rather than creating something new just replace it with a bloodrager.
Thanks all - you've given me plenty to think about.
I will probably keep the BAB = 1 as it is so inextricably linked with the entire game mechanic that to change it I would have to basically design a whole new system. I will probably give them a flat penalty to hit while Raging and try to compensate with other stuff (have mentioned some of them already)
Part of the point of raging is to get better at fighting, not just to hit harder. Accuracy is more valuable than damage to a large extent. If you don't hit, then you don't do damage.
Yeah... You're much better off buffing Fightera than nerfing Barbarians.
Barbarians are a balanced, effective class... Fighters... Kinda suck.
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I've got no intention of "nerfing" barbarians.... or buffing Fighters.... Just changing Barbarians.
This WILL happen whether or not ppl like Claxon say things like "I don't wanna play in your campaign!"
I was asking for ideas to maintain the balance while making them, believe it or not (!), more of a fighting beast.
They will loose most silly Rage Powers, Trap Sense, (Imp.) Uncanny Dodge and I was contemplating the +1 BAB.
This will be replaced with things like.....
oh hang on.... I think I am repeating myself.....
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Take it the other direction. Instead of reducing the BAB of classes other than Fighter, increase the Fighter's BAB. Give them an extra point of BAB every so many levels. This allows them to access BAB-restricted feats, greater power attack bonuses, and iterative attacks faster than any other class.
This. You basically are trying to redesign the entire game to make Fighters seem better by comparison. It'd be far easier just to tweak Fighters.
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Take it the other direction. Instead of reducing the BAB of classes other than Fighter, increase the Fighter's BAB. Give them an extra point of BAB every so many levels. This allows them to access BAB-restricted feats, greater power attack bonuses, and iterative attacks faster than any other class.
no
Lemeres I like your idea of giving bonus STR to make up for lack of BAB progression - Simple, yet very effective way of offsetting the reduced BAB.
And some ways, it oddly balances early levels.
Cause if you are in a one shot game that only covers level 1... the 'right' answer is barbarian. Cause rage on top of power attack with a great sword at level 1 that one shots everything, basically.
With the BAB change, you get slightly less damage early on (since you have to wait until level 3 for power attack), but you keep it up well enough with the extra +2 that you are still good. Brings you to about where fighter is.
I've got no intention of "nerfing" barbarians.... or buffing Fighters.... Just changing Barbarians.
This WILL happen whether or not ppl like Claxon say things like "I don't wanna play in your campaign!"
I was asking for ideas to maintain the balance while making them, believe it or not (!), more of a fighting beast.They will loose most silly Rage Powers, Trap Sense, (Imp.) Uncanny Dodge and I was contemplating the +1 BAB.
This will be replaced with things like.....
oh hang on.... I think I am repeating myself.....
If you change them they will either get better or worse.
I didn't know bloodragers got full BAB so that kills that idea.I don't know what to tell you really. Barbarians being able to beat things in the face while having some utility is their main appeal. Maybe you should ask your players what they would be willing to accept in exchange of what you are taking away.
Hello.
doing modification (aint we all!) to some classes and stuff for my own Stone-Age world/setting/campaign/settings.
a)I feel ONLY fighters should have a +1 BAB.
Barbarians have a 3/4 BAB like Clerics etc. what do you feel I should give them to compensate for this (I have my own thoughts but I'd love to see you ideas)
b) I feel Rage and the bonuses it grants should have a chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable element to them, not just the flat "+2 hit and damage" that we all quote. How would you introduce this to the class feature "Rage"?Thanks,
Morlaf (The bringer of Chaos)I would respond to this by never playing a barbarian in your campaigns.
This is horrible idea that nerfs the character.
Please allow me to expand on this:
Rather than nerfing the barbarian because you feel that it's too strong compared to a fighter, consider buffing the fighter. Something I always do is buff all non-int based classes up to 4 skill points per level and use the background skill system from Unchained.Now, previously I would have also suggested some more stuff to make the fighter better, but since the advent Weapon Master's Handbook and Armor Master's Handbook, I feel they do a good job of giving fighters some solid buffs to their power. Oh, also Combat Stamina. Give fighters free Combat Stamina feat (it's a limited use pool that lets them do some pretty cool stuff with some feats they probably already have).
Make sure you're using all the sources intended for fighters and I think you will find they are on par with barbarians.
And, for what its worth you are actually quite wrong about why barbarians had been better than fighters for so long. Barbarians were better because they had access to pounce (though Greater Beast Totem) and other interesting options like Spell Sunder. This allowed the barbarian to do interesting things besides dealing damage. They had very diverse abilities gained through rage powers. The fighter could actually deal just as much damage as a barbarian and didn't have to deal with limited daily resources to do so. But he didn't get to do anything else interesting.
You want to make fighters good? Don't nerf the barbarian. Give the fighter interesting things to do besides "full attack-deal damage".
But whatever you do, don't do this:
Thanks all - you've given me plenty to think about.
I will probably keep the BAB = 1 as it is so inextricably linked with the entire game mechanic that to change it I would have to basically design a whole new system. I will probably give them a flat penalty to hit while Raging and try to compensate with other stuff (have mentioned some of them already)
All your going to do is encourage people not to play that particular class. Seriously, if you tell me "Oh hey, I don't like the barbarian so I nerfed it so that it doesn't hit as often or as hard, I'm going to look at you funny and then decide not to play a barbarian in your campaign". Barbarian is actually one of the few examples of purely martial characters (no magic)that was considered good and balanced. The other martial characters that are considered good are ranger and paladin, but they get spells to help them and have robust class features to do interesting things.
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Hello.
doing modification (aint we all!) to some classes and stuff for my own Stone-Age world/setting/campaign/settings.
a)I feel ONLY fighters should have a +1 BAB.
Barbarians have a 3/4 BAB like Clerics etc. what do you feel I should give them to compensate for this (I have my own thoughts but I'd love to see you ideas)
b) I feel Rage and the bonuses it grants should have a chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable element to them, not just the flat "+2 hit and damage" that we all quote. How would you introduce this to the class feature "Rage"?Thanks,
Morlaf (The bringer of Chaos)I would respond to this by never playing a barbarian in your campaigns.
This is horrible idea that nerfs the character.
Please allow me to expand on this:
Rather than nerfing the barbarian because you feel that it's too strong compared to a fighter, consider buffing the fighter. Something I always do is buff all non-int based classes up to 4 skill points per level and use the background skill system from Unchained.Now, previously I would have also suggested some more stuff to make the fighter better, but since the advent Weapon Master's Handbook and Armor Master's Handbook, I feel they do a good job of giving fighters some solid buffs to their power. Oh, also Combat Stamina. Give fighters free Combat Stamina feat (it's a limited use pool that lets them do some pretty cool stuff with some feats they probably already have).
Make sure you're using all the sources intended for fighters and I think you will find they are on par with barbarians.
And, for what its worth you are actually quite wrong about why barbarians had been better than fighters for so long. Barbarians were better because they had access to pounce (though Greater Beast Totem) and other interesting options like Spell Sunder. This allowed the barbarian to do interesting things besides dealing damage. They had very diverse abilities gained through rage powers. The fighter could actually deal...
I never said I was nerfing the Barbarian because they are too powerful.
The original post was (and I am paraphrasing here):
"I'm thinking of giving them a 3/4 BAB progression.
what can i give them to offset this...."
So I think you have attacked this from completely the wrong angle.....
But why change the barbarian? Why do you want to give them 3/4 BAB and then offset it?
Why bother with these changes at all?
You would be better off making a new 3/4 BAB class with a rage-like class feature and some other features too.
I don't mind new custom classes if that's your goal. But when you drastically change what is one of my favorite class and make it ostensibly worse....I just don't see the point.
It's not that I wouldn't play in your campaign, it's that I simply wouldn't play a nerf'd barbarian in your campaign.
It's unlikely you can make changes and keep the power level of the barbarian the same, so you will either make it more powerful or less powerful. The barbarian is viewed by most as already have the right amount of power. So there isn't really a need to change it.
If you can explain why you want to change it, perhaps we can be more constructive.
Take it the other direction. Instead of reducing the BAB of classes other than Fighter, increase the Fighter's BAB. Give them an extra point of BAB every so many levels. This allows them to access BAB-restricted feats, greater power attack bonuses, and iterative attacks faster than any other class.no
Why? How is this not what you want? Fighters would have the highest BAB as desired and no further work would be needed.
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Why? How is this not what you want? Fighters would have the highest BAB as desired and no further work would be needed.Take it the other direction. Instead of reducing the BAB of classes other than Fighter, increase the Fighter's BAB. Give them an extra point of BAB every so many levels. This allows them to access BAB-restricted feats, greater power attack bonuses, and iterative attacks faster than any other class.no
Fighters are staying as is.....
Barbarians are changing....Enjoy.....
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How about dialing back on the condescending responses?
Oooookay, you don't want to nerf, you just want to "change" and keep them equal.
How are you editing Rangers? Paladins? Anti-Paladins? Cavaliers? Samurai? Gunslingers? Brawlers? Swashbucklers? Slayers? Bloodragers? UnMonk? Avenger Vigilante?
You're wanting to completely redo all these classes because you only think the Fighter should have Full BaB instead of just simply buffing the Fighter. Why?
So, you are cool with all of the other full BAB classes still having full BAB? And you only want to change Barbarians? Seems an odd choice, especially if you intend to compensate them for the loss. The easy thing to do, would be to just give them a +1 to attack for every time their BAB would become lower than full BAB. This would be a slight nerf because of feat prerequisites, but the differences are usually negligible.
Something to note is that Power Attack, one of the most Barbarian of feats, has a +1 BAB requirement, so your Barbarians would have to wait to till level 3 just to get it.
You still haven't answered why you want to make this change?
If you would like an example of why unpredictable, chaotic, and otherwise uncontrollable rages are bad please take some time to look at the Wild Rager Barbarian archetype. I think that's along the lines of what you want. But you should also keep in mind that the archetype is considered to be horrible, precisely because of the Uncontrolled Rage feature. Such things simply make you a liability to your own party and people don't want to deal with that.
Another example is the Vigilant archetype Brute which basically lets you be the Hulk/Bruce Banner. Except it's pretty much like the Wilder Rager, but worse. Because again you become an even more extreme liability to your party.
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From the outside looking in it seems as if fighters would be the martial class least represented in a Stone Age environment. I would expect that barbarians and rangers to be closer to the norm, not a class that makes use of a wide variety of weapons and heavy armors.
-Give them full BAB while raging. Any feats with BAB requirements they meet only while raging can only be used then.
-Increase the raging strength bonus by 2 any time a Fighter would gain a new iterative, maybe? Or every four levels, offsetting the loss of accuracy and Power Attack progression.
How about dialing back on the condescending responses?
Oooookay, you don't want to nerf, you just want to "change" and keep them equal.
How are you editing Rangers? Paladins? Anti-Paladins? Cavaliers? Samurai? Gunslingers? Brawlers? Swashbucklers? Slayers? Bloodragers? UnMonk? Avenger Vigilante?
You're wanting to completely redo all these classes because you only think the Fighter should have Full BaB instead of just simply buffing the Fighter. Why?
my guess is that most of those don't exist, since he is doing a stone age style campaign.
So I would imagine no:
-knights- paladins, cavaliers, etc.- by their nature, they are too medieval
-no high tech- gunslingers, obviously; I suggest doing the same on the caster side with wizards (the learned scholars in an era before man had much time to learn) and alchemists (relatively high tech for casters)
-little 'urban' or 'civilized'- swashbuckler, slayer, monk; MAYBE brawlers, int eh gladiatorial arena sense.
Ranger is probably fine though, as well as blood rages (since they are just barbarians bursting with magic juice). No idea about vigilante, but I am fairly sure it gets lumped into 'civilized'.
From the outside looking in it seems as if fighters would be the martial class least represented in a Stone Age environment. I would expect that barbarians and rangers to be closer to the norm, not a class that makes use of a wide variety of weapons and heavy armors.
Again, I am guessing the attempts at desired flavor here, but I could certainly see a fighter as a nice contrast against barbarian.
The idea here is that the fighter represents the growing agrarian society and their cities- a society that has the time and leisure to have individuals take specialized professions- barbarians would, by their nature, have to be hunter gatherers that also largely rely upon herds of horses, sheep, cows, etc. The classic plains people, basically.
And this is also why I support the str thing for barbarians. With fighters, you can have individuals who carefully trained into specialized roles. With barbarians, you have great strength from better lifestyle
...Yeah, there are reasons why barbarians are often depicted as a powerful force; ancient cities sucked- drinking from downstream from where they use the bathroom, living in tight, close conditions with others that might be diseased, no one washes their hands before cooking. Reliant on a couple crops for most of your food, thus a lack of a varied diet... yeah, there were disadvantages to going with the agrarian/city model of societies. Barbarians, by comparison, could be considered 'free range' humans, allowed to move, play, and given a varied diet (since they ate what they could find- element of chance).
So making that your main mechanical dichotomy seems interesting. The strong peoples of the plains versus the trained people of the cities.
I'll agree that you should probably not go with heavy armor though. Try to find an archetype that trades that out.
What are you wanting to be different about the barb? You say you want to change it but you don't give anything about how you're wanting it changed.
Cause I can change it easy. Give it 3/4th bab like you said and then give it divine and arcane casting based off of str. There's it's changed. :P
So unless you give clearer description of HOW you're wanting it changed you're going to get garbage advice.
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There is simply no logic to this notion of nerfing the barbarian vs the fighter. You are locking onto this concept for no apparent reason, and the only reasons I can fathom don't hold water.
Your basic OP question is "what should you give the barbarian to compensate for the BAB nerf", right?
The premise is flawed and the question is flawed. As stated above many times, if your premise is that fighters should be the "best" warriors because *reasons* then you need to buff the fighter, not tear down barbarians. Not to mention you're leaving out every other full BAB class out of the discussion for no apparent reason, which is a glaring omission to your premise.
All you will accomplish is that no one will play a barbarian in your game. If you can admit that this is the only logical outcome of your endeavor, then just remove the barbarian class and then your work is done. Or, you can simply give the fighter a buff and leave the years and years of class design alone.
From the outside looking in it seems as if fighters would be the martial class least represented in a Stone Age environment. I would expect that barbarians and rangers to be closer to the norm, not a class that makes use of a wide variety of weapons and heavy armors.
This.
Fighters are masters of a variety of weapons and armor. There is little variety of either in a stone age, especially heavy armors which were the very height of technology in Earth's middle/medieval ages.
All you will accomplish is that no one will play a barbarian in your game. If you can admit that this is the only logical outcome of your endeavor, then just remove the barbarian class and then your work is done. Or, you can simply give the fighter a buff and leave the years and years of class design alone.
I don't know... pounce, DR, great saves, lots of rage powers with varied effects (savage dirty trick for example, for double status goodness). That seems attractive, even when you shift to 3/4 BAB+attack mechanic.
And it isn't like we haven't seen examples of people using classes that were... eh... (ie- unarchetyped core monk, core rogue...)
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There are lots and lots of martial options out there. If you're allowing them all then you have to find a niche for your barbarian in that design space. Which is no easy job. And you'll need to refine your request a LOT before you can hope to get useful advice.
If you're NOT allowing them all then perhaps the best solution is to take one of those options and reflavour it. For example, the hunter with no companion, or the metamorph alchemist might be a better starting point.
Edit: you should also decide what level range the campaign will cover. The effect of 3/4 BAB increases with level. If the campaign is going to stay low level (which is how I'd run a Stone Age campaign) then the probkem becomes much easier to handle
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>>> Morlaf:
I strongly recommend against debuffing the barbarian in any way. You would be better off giving the fighter class a boost.
>>> All:
What kinds of buffs/bonuses *could* we reasonably give the fighter as a class feature that would help pull him up to where he "needs" to be? I like the fact that fighters are "always on" in terms of combat prowess, but even giving them temporary boosts in combat (similar to the paladin's smite) just makes them more of what they already are -- the deadliest threatened area until you run into another PC . . . .
Here's a brainstorm -- let's say we give the fighter a class ability with the same use progression as the paladin's smite, from 1 to 7 times per day. I don't have a snappy name for it, presently, so let's just call it MFGA ("Make Fighters Great . . . Again??!"). The notion I have is to make this ability something similar to the skill unlocks of the unchained rogue, but center them around the gear the fighter uses -- "item unlocks", or somesuch. It would allow the fighter to draw upon the potential of his weapon or armor (obviously, this only *really* becomes "good" once he has magical gear, but maybe we can hammer out a bottom-end that's suitable) to impact the world around him . . . .
Icy burst weapon? Quench all or part of a fire! Food storage! Preserve a body!
Seeking bow? Teleport to a square next to your last struck target (Just make sure you have Empty Quiver Style!!)! Guarantee your tow arrow will hit the field of pitch you laid down in anticipation of the horde's arrival (no matter the wind, size of the hill, or how blind you are)!
Fortification armor? Give a boost to a city gate to withstand siege engine attacks! Repair a broken item (non-artifact level, to be sure!)!
Energy resistance feature? Turn it into a short-duration aura!
. . . . Anyway, I don't know if any of that seems reasonable, or even workable within the system, but we need to get the poor ol' fighter *something* to cover the differences between him and everyone else. Skill points would help, but we don't want any more "Rogue Jr.'s". Giving them 4-level spellcasting just makes another paladin/bloodrager/whichever.
It seems to me that the fighter, as a class, is overburdened with tactical focus; if all the best generals in the world got to that position just because they were better at CQB than their peers, then we'd have a far more bland military history than we do. Both to parallel history and to improve gameplay output, we need to find a strategic angle for the fighters to impact. The spellcasters already run the world and everything beyond it, but there should be *some* advantage a fighter possesses that makes even a 20th-level wizard take a pause . . . . If only a pause.
We should call them Hero Points.
... wait a minute...
I don't follow the logic of making a class that has no spellcasting have a base attack bonus equal to that of a 9-level spellcaster.
When the class is supposed to be good at fighting.
I like the idea of fighter expertise being in their feats; that I think is where the main 'training' flavour of the class comes from these days (that, and, you know, all the armour and weapons).
From stuff I've read, almost any main melee character has full BAB. Even base monk had a way to fake it with Flurry of Blows and other class features. I've seen another d20 game go the 5/4 BAB way for the weapon specialist tho. In that one it was limited to a particular weapon, but it could be neat for fighters. (For this, it'd be 1, 2, 3, 5, 6/1 for a BAB progression.)
I didn't see anything about stone age in the original posts so I won't go there.
Maybe another thing fighters could get is all exotic weapons too?
But as far as something to trade a barbarian's full BAB for? Ugh, but here goes ... well, core monk has Wis to AC, maybe let barbarians have Con to AC even when armoured? (Or a better progression when unarmoured? Come on, who doesn't like staring at a scantily-clad muscular barbarian swinging his or her greatsword?) Toss in a flurry capability in rage too? Improve the saves? Wait a minute ...
Just wondering, do you mean they lose "(the most silly) Rage Powers", or "most (silly Rage Powers)"? Because there's a big difference between the two. Rage Powers are what make Pathfinder Barbarians not a horrible class. If you're cutting off the powers that seem ridiculous (growing wings, breathing fire), I can understand. If you're getting rid of all powers, that's going too far. It would be akin to not letting Wizards learn new spells or Fighters get bonus feats.
Yeah, I had that same question. Some are neat, some are absolutely terrible. Although some also might not match the feel of the campaign. Perhaps many should be altered, but I don't think rage powers should be removed completely.
Anyway, as for making the Barbarian a little more random/chaotic as you mention, what you could possibly do is to create a chart of miscellaneous "free actions" that they can perform during their rage. They would be little variances that would give them something interesting. They shouldn't be overly powerful, but I think it's better to add them on a little bit rather than to make their actual attack random because people wouldn't want to play a class where they aren't sure literally every round if they are going to be able to attack or what way they might have it done.
So possible actions (Roll 1 per round before attack to determine effect):
Yell - Target is intimidated, suffers -2 on attacks against the barbarian
Bite - Deal Strength Damage
Kick - Deal Strength Damage
Taunt - Target wants to attack barbarian, +2 on attacks versus barbarian, -2 on attacks against everyone else
Wild Attack - -2 to hit, +2 Damage on primary attack
Depending on your final version, you could make these a little more powerful if you wanted, but maybe this will give you a place to start.
Thanks all - you've given me plenty to think about.
I will probably keep the BAB = 1 as it is so inextricably linked with the entire game mechanic that to change it I would have to basically design a whole new system. I will probably give them a flat penalty to hit while Raging and try to compensate with other stuff (have mentioned some of them already)
Just wanted to reference this coz it seems like some people missed it.
Morlaf, are you still thinking of changing the BAB or have you decided just to change rage powers etc?