Using Detect spells as more than just a supernatural radar.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Many tomes in my games especially with a paladin the conversation goes something like this.

Paladin: I detect evil
Me: ok
Paladin: is there evil in the room
Me: yes
Paladin: Is that guy evil
Me: yes
Paladin: how evil?
Me *reference chart* overwhelmingly so

After a long time in thought i decided this was boring ab i need a way to make detects spells more dynamic and more personal so i wrote this. I Spy with my Inner Eye attempts to find new ways to present detection spells to the players.

How do you use and describe detect spells in your game? In games where there is a mystery how to you curtail some detect spells means of getting around it?


I believe the new book Ultimate Intrigue provides some new good options for getting around the detect alignment spells.

Do keep in mind, if your paladin uses detect evil (and not the move action single target version) it takes multiple rounds for him to know things.

Round 1 is only "Is there evil in this cone?". Round two "How many evil auras are there and what is the strength of the strongest I detect?". Round 3 "What is the location and strength of each evil aura?".

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:

I believe the new book Ultimate Intrigue provides some new good options for getting around the detect alignment spells.

Do keep in mind, if your paladin uses detect evil (and not the move action single target version) it takes multiple rounds for him to know things.

Round 1 is only "Is there evil in this cone?". Round two "How many evil auras are there and what is the strength of the strongest I detect?". Round 3 "What is the location and strength of each evil aura?".

Not really;

As in Paladin:
"Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range."

[edit] just saw you pointed the other usage of the spell, sorry.


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Apupunchau wrote:
In games where there is a mystery how to you curtail some detect spells means of getting around it?

Well, PF isn't really the best system to run mystery adventures in. If the paladin doesn't simply try to detect evil her way out of the mystery, the cleric is likely to use augury or the wizard contact other planes or something. When half the classes seem to have "ask God for His advice" as an explicit ability, most of the time you need to run more of a hard-boiled style mystery where the first half of the adventure is simply figuring out what is the question you should ask, and the second half is dealing with the consequences of asking that question and getting an answer. So less Murder on the Cheliax Express and more The Taldane Falcon.

Having said that, if you insist on running Agatha and Dorothy instead of Raymond and Dashiell, read the spells carefully and apply the limitations to the letter. In particular, remember that most evil people do not detect as such (the detect spells generally only detect supernatural evil), that just because someone is evil doesn't make them the criminal, and that many neutral people (and even sometimes good people) will commit murder for reasons they consider justified.

"The Eyes Have It," by Randall Garrett, is a very good short story that illustrates how you can actually use this to good effect to make cozy mysteries in a magical universe. Actually, all of the stories in that series are pretty good. Details are hidden behind the spoiler:

Spoiler:

The murder victim is found dead in a classic locked-room mystery. Among the guests at Cheesecake Manner is an actual evil sorcerer who attempted to kill the victim by foul magics the previous night, but he actually failed, because the victim was already dead. He had been killed in self defense by someone else.

Sir Lock of Holmes, the paladin who simply uses detect evil on everything, would have totally botched this mystery -- the person who detected as evil was actually innocent, and the killer was actually a good person.

Basically, divination spells only provide clues. The task of a mystery writer is to provide clues, both true clues and false clues to mislead the reader. The knowledge that Lord Falseheart of Slytherin radiates evil is simply.... a clue, as is the knowledge that Lady Penelope's handkerchief was found in Sir Playa's bedchamber. Maybe Lord Falseheart has deliberately set himself up to radiate evil so that he can discredit the party when they accuse him and he can triumphantly produce an ironclad alibi. Tune in next week for the next exciting chapter!


First i'll be honest even after years of playing i never realizedthe paladin ability worked differently than the spell. So I can add that to my arsenal of knowledge.

@orfamay Those are great points. And yes PF probably isnt the greatest game for mysteries but I like to try and find ways to make systems work for as much as possible. You've certainly given me a bunch to chew.

No one gas touched on how they have the spells (or abilities) manifest however.


Apupunchau wrote:


No one gas touched on how they have the spells (or abilities) manifest however.

Well, in my game, I don't bother, in the same way that very few people (I think Dorothy Sayers is the only one) describe exactly how the detective figured out that there was arsenic in the gravy. (The answer for most cozies is, of course, the Marsh test, but outside of forensic chemists, who gives a hamster turd?)

Clues are clues, and I don't think it adds much to verisimilitude or immersion to describe them in detail. I don't also don't describe the process of picking locks ("well, you try to rake the lock, but there's something that keeps it from working. After a few minutes, you realize that the cylinder probably uses mushroom pins, so you put the rake back in your toollkit and pull out the actual pick. The first two pins are easy, but the third... hey, why is everyone heading down to the beer fridge?") or making a campfire ("you find some pine needles that might work for tinder, but unfortunately all the dead wood you see is lying on the ground and so it's kind of dampish..... hey, why is everyone heading to the kitchen for Doritos?")


Yeah, the problem with too much detail is that likely on the person performing the action is likely to be interested in that level of detail at all.

Other people are very likely to not pay attention or go do something else.

Unfortunately it's best to avoid describing things for one character too much. But go crazy on detail that applies to everyone equally.

The hideously disfigured half-orc as he erupts through the door and surprises you all and proceeds to beat you to death with your friend can have some great description that everyone could be interested.

Describing how one picks a lock, not as much.


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This is my preference only, but I prefer the "5 Second Description," even when it doesn't necessarily involve everyone. If the player's ought to know what's going on, mechanically speaking, then work that into the description.

Paladin: I use Detect Evil on the cloaked figure.

GM

  • You detect a faintly sulfuric odor wafting from the creature's robes.
  • The creature's cloak develops the luster of moderately tarnished silver.
  • A strong sense of decay emanates from the creature, drifting like dark cloud across the floor.
  • Your stomach drops out as an overwhelming evil drips from beneath the hood like some loathsome tar.

    Erstwhile the Anti-Paladin sizes up the Paladin, using Detect Good.

  • The cloaked creature tilts his head to one side, his eyes flashing beneath the hood, as a maniacal smile crosses his face. "Well met, stranger. I couldn't help but notice... how disgustingly idealistic you are."


  • Wow i always go into detail for individuals abilities. I look at the examples Dave Gross uses when describing the feeling the paladins get in king of chaos. Giving characters something that makes them feel special is a central aspect of my games. It doesnt need to be a huge description as Anonymous Warrior points out, just five seconds, but it makes all the difference for immersion.


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    Make detect smells into smello-vision.

    Make every general category ahve a type of scene. Lets look at schools of magic:
    Enchantment: flowers, perfumes, etc.
    transmutation: animal smells- musk, 'marked territories', and "presents"
    Necromancy: rot, formaldehyde, dust
    Conjuration: candles, incense, and other things in the 'I'm like...a witch now mom' starter pack
    evocation: smoke, ozone (for electricity), etc.
    Abjuration and divination- can't think of anything good right now

    Good-a fresh plate of cookies made by grandma,
    Evil- sulfer, blood, tears
    Law- hard sweat, wet ink, a blacksmith's forge, etc.
    Chaos- booze, drugs, women, etc.

    Obviously, you give a more extravagant description the higher the magic level. A high level enchantment spell should smell like an entire field of roses or like a bull just made its way through a perfume shop.


    Smells are highly under used. I think because the players can't really smell what the characters can and they may not personally know the smell you describe. But definitely think they would be a great addition to describing detect effects to your players.


    I think evil people will also detect good as unpleasant things. Perhaps the antipaladin tastes good auras as a sickly sweet stench that reminds him of rot. Or maybe he hears auras as helpless voices begging for mercy.


    Undetectable Alignment is a lv 1 bard spell. Wand/rod of it would be super cheap. So is Magic Aura, which works against Detect Magic.


    @Knight Magenta I can totally see that. To some one Chaotic, Lawful might sound like ails against a chalkboard and vice versa. Which is why itss important to find out how the character thinks and feels. Finding out how a character magically views an aura is a key to who the character is.

    @Klara Meison I dont know the spell well does undetectable alignment show as so weak as to be undetectacle like a creature/character under 5 hd, or is it a blank space. The latter would be more conspicuous than the former. But its good info to know.


    Abjuration smells like lysol, erasers, and soap.

    Divination amplifies the truth. The caster might smell the blood of everything they killed and it will burn their nose a little because the truth hurts.

    Hearing abjuration is a muffled sound of strangling.

    Divination gives you the distant sound of secrets trying to reveal themselves.


    Smell is also hard because it's so subjective though.

    A paladin based on me would fall the first time they smelled lavender for example. Can't stand the stuff and will forever associate it with evil. Whereas I can see a GM using it as a benign old lady smell.

    I've no reason to hate the smell but I've paid extra money to stay somewhere away from the plant in the past.

    As usual, the lesson is 'know your players'.


    I like to insist that detect evil isn't an action that just involves standing around. The paladin has to present a holy symbol or, at the very least, say in a booming voice "By the powers of Goodgod The God of Goodness, evil show yourself!"

    That gives the targets a chance to react. E.g., the hidden villain can hiss and threaten, the innocent falsely accused can object, the neutral can shrug... the point is to make it an RP opportunity instead of putting all the onus on the GM to describe everything. Remember, it's a collective enterprise.

    Of course, if your players aren't interested in hamming up detection, then you're not going to get much traction with this approach.


    quibblemuch wrote:

    I like to insist that detect evil isn't an action that just involves standing around. The paladin has to present a holy symbol or, at the very least, say in a booming voice "By the powers of Goodgod The God of Goodness, evil show yourself!"

    That gives the targets a chance to react. E.g., the hidden villain can hiss and threaten, the innocent falsely accused can object, the neutral can shrug... the point is to make it an RP opportunity instead of putting all the onus on the GM to describe everything. Remember, it's a collective enterprise.

    Of course, if your players aren't interested in hamming up detection, then you're not going to get much traction with this approach.

    By the rules spell-like abilities don't require any of that.

    CRB wrote:
    Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. ...

    But according to this FAQ they do have some sort of visible manifestation. I could see some flavor there: a tattoo of her holy symbol appearing on her head, her hair and/or eyes turning white, etc. That gives the NPC's a chance for a Spellcraft check. So even if the players don't want to alter the rules, there is still room for a little roleplaying.


    Instead of smells, you could also use sounds.

    Enchantments: Voices, soothing if it is a sleep effect, harsh if it is a compulsion, seductive if it is a charm.
    Transmutations: The sound of the transmuted object would make if it was being shaken in a box full of more of itself, along with a bit of crunching or squishing. Swooshy wind noises if the transmuted object/person is incorporeal.
    Necromancy: The sound of something dying or in pain, along with the sound of snapping bones. It would be a different creature sound depending on the spell.
    Conjuration: A hum or buzz. Long duration spells sound would be quieter, instantaneous ones sound like a passing car. Healing would be a pure tone, damaging effects would buzz more.
    Evocation: Booms, crackles, roars, and the sound of popping bubble wrap.
    Illusion: Echoes of whatever sound would be applicable to the illusion, or echoing footsteps if none are.
    Abjuration: A metallic clink like armor or chains.
    Divination: A meditation gong or bell, with the barest snippets of what the spell was divining.

    Good: Cheers, lighthearted laughter, or righteous battle cries.
    Evil: Distorted cackles, angry whispers, and wet crunches.
    Law: Bass drums and rhythmic thumps or clanks.
    Chaos: Whistles, whoops, fluttering flag sounds, and broken engine noises.


    Sorry been recuperating from surgery since last wednsday mostly eating and sleeping, and typing one handed. But theres been some good stuff.

    Gisher wrote:
    quibblemuch wrote:

    I like to insist that detect evil isn't an action that just involves standing around. The paladin has to present a holy symbol or, at the very least, say in a booming voice "By the powers of Goodgod The God of Goodness, evil show yourself!"

    That gives the targets a chance to react. E.g., the hidden villain can hiss and threaten, the innocent falsely accused can object, the neutral can shrug... the point is to make it an RP opportunity instead of putting all the onus on the GM to describe everything. Remember, it's a collective enterprise.

    Of course, if your players aren't interested in hamming up detection, then you're not going to get much traction with this approach.

    By the rules spell-like abilities don't require any of that.

    CRB wrote:
    Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. ...
    But according to this FAQ they do have some sort of visible manifestation. I could see some flavor there: a tattoo of her holy symbol appearing on her head, her hair and/or eyes turning white, etc. That gives the NPC's a chance for a Spellcraft check. So even if the players don't want to alter the rules, there is still room for a little roleplaying.

    Im not sure I Im down with the fully outward manifestation of using a holy symbol and screaming power of chirst compels thee either. They are detecting evil not forcing it out of some ones body. I like the idea of maybe small manifestations that may be noticed with a perception check but even then. Precedence has been set for how detect evil, at least for paladins, may manifest and I again point to the Dave Gross King of Chaos PF Novel.

    But this has brought up to more questions.

    1) Its not an official rule but in kings of Chaos overwhelming evil auras had a detrimental affect. One paladin got an excuciating migraine making it difficult to do anything. Obviously not RAW but would you work a house rule for something like this in?

    2) How do people view detect spells? Do they see them as invasions of privacy? Sure in dungeon maybe you don't care if the lich knows you are detecting him as evil, but in a major city is using detect magic considered rude or uncouth? In any of the PF tales and many of the old D&D novels people who were obviously capable of casting detect alignment very rarely did.


    My Self wrote:

    Instead of smells, you could also use sounds.

    Enchantments: Voices, soothing if it is a sleep effect, harsh if it is a compulsion, seductive if it is a charm.
    Transmutations: The sound of the transmuted object would make if it was being shaken in a box full of more of itself, along with a bit of crunching or squishing. Swooshy wind noises if the transmuted object/person is incorporeal.
    Necromancy: The sound of something dying or in pain, along with the sound of snapping bones. It would be a different creature sound depending on the spell.
    Conjuration: A hum or buzz. Long duration spells sound would be quieter, instantaneous ones sound like a passing car. Healing would be a pure tone, damaging effects would buzz more.
    Evocation: Booms, crackles, roars, and the sound of popping bubble wrap.
    Illusion: Echoes of whatever sound would be applicable to the illusion, or echoing footsteps if none are.
    Abjuration: A metallic clink like armor or chains.
    Divination: A meditation gong or bell, with the barest snippets of what the spell was divining.

    Good: Cheers, lighthearted laughter, or righteous battle cries.
    Evil: Distorted cackles, angry whispers, and wet crunches.
    Law: Bass drums and rhythmic thumps or clanks.
    Chaos: Whistles, whoops, fluttering flag sounds, and broken engine noises.

    Sound is great as well. How do blind folf detect auras. Reminds me of the one blind green lantern he was actually the lantern for a specific note. I will keep this list handy.

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