Or was the class built as a "lone wolf" type character?
In short, does the class feel more like Batman (who's relunctant to work with a team) or like Captain America (who's the leader of a team)?
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The player is the one who decides that. The class itself is a PC class so it has to work with a tem. You can be the rebel-type vigilante or a willing member of a larger group, maybe even the ringleader.
The player is the one who decides that. The class itself is a PC class so it has to work with a tem. You can be the rebel-type vigilante or a willing member of a larger group, maybe even the ringleader.
Well, ok, let me just clarify: I do think that a vigilante can work with other classes, like a rogue, slayer and swashbuckler. I just feel like the vigilante has so many conflicting abilities that it would be complicated to make it work with other vigilantes.
We're not talking about a classed character who simply dresses up to hide his or her identity, we're talking about a character with TWO distinct personalities.
Basically, the civilians could like each other, but could try to kill each other as vigilantes, and vice-versa.
I was under the impression that Vigilantes have two alignments rather than two personalities. If that's the case, in your example the two vigilantes might hate each other in both alignments but hide it well in their civilian personas. I think the dual alignment is more about getting into character to the point of fooling alignment detection rather than actually changing your personal values/having multiple personalities.
I was under the impression that Vigilantes have two alignments rather than two personalities. If that's the case, in your example the two vigilantes might hate each other in both alignments but hide it well in their civilian personas. I think the dual alignment is more about getting into character to the point of fooling alignment detection rather than actually changing your personal values/having multiple personalities.
Actually, one of the archetypes has an alignment change :P
The personas can be of the same alignments, one is a disguise to the other. That's it really.
However... I mostly get the feeling that vigilantes will end up in a similar situation to Bruce Wayne courting Selina Kyle with Batman actually fighting Catwoman.
When one considers the Pulps, this archetype can and does work with a group. Arguably, it is better with the sort of group that does not spend all of its time together, such as PFS and a lot of urban settings.
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If you look at an AP like Hell's Rebels, a Vigilante can be a really powerful pick, at least at the onset when they are still fighting to push the city into rebellion, the social aspect can appear to be a member of the Chelaxian society, pushing reform politically while staying clearly on the side of the law, while the a vigilante aspect engages in the direct acts of violence. It works perfectly well if the party knows about the characters secret identity, as he lends them legitimacy.
I think the part that makes a vigilante a challenge is it is built for an urban/intrigue campaign, and while it might mechanically work in a dungeon crawl, it isn't going to be best utilized in that setting, the archetypes give you a lot of versatility.
Now I would say that you could easily build a complete party of just vigilantes with each one look and feel unique by virtue of the archetypes. So you could have your Avengers/Justice league party.
I was under the impression that Vigilantes have two alignments rather than two personalities. If that's the case, in your example the two vigilantes might hate each other in both alignments but hide it well in their civilian personas. I think the dual alignment is more about getting into character to the point of fooling alignment detection rather than actually changing your personal values/having multiple personalities.Actually, one of the archetypes has an alignment change :P
The personas can be of the same alignments, one is a disguise to the other. That's it really.
However... I mostly get the feeling that vigilantes will end up in a similar situation to Bruce Wayne courting Selina Kyle with Batman actually fighting Catwoman.
Batman and Bruce Wayne both have the same goals. They just have different methods. The social character might true to push things legally, and the vigilante might use "less than legal" methods to get rid of any red tape.
Now, if we have a case such as that archetype with different alignments that might be a problem if the party is very much "by the book", and one of the personality has no regard for the rules.
Or was the class built as a "lone wolf" type character?
In short, does the class feel more like Batman (who's reluctant to work with a team) or like Captain America (who's the leader of a team)?
Either, depending on the character goals/motivations.
You could have a group of good-aligned vigilantes who work against an oppressive government, but are more interested in curtailing abuses and reforming the existing system (by using their vigilante role to make those abuses less attractive) than inciting a revolution and/or trying to institute a completely new system. For example, the kingdom may be dominated by a group of greedy, self-serving nobles who allow slavery, dabble in necromancy, etc., while the nominal ruler lacks the power and/or legal authority to reign in the great lords (actually a pretty common circumstance, historically); the group would be focused on making "object lessons" out of those that abuse their power in their vigilante identity, even if it may be "legal" (or at least, not illegal or pardonable for the nobility), while serving as "respectable" examples in their social identity. Each vigilante could even have a different archetype to act more like a "classic" adventuring party (a "base" avenger, a psychometrist stalker, a warlock, and a zealot to replace the "standard" fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric).
Alternately (or in addition!), you could have a group of evil cabalists running a secret society (using the organization rules in Chapter 3) or even a "shadow council" of vigilantes working from within to control all aspects of a city (classic intrigue hook).
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One thing to keep in mind is that Vigilantes, for the most part, are closer to street level supers or pulp heroes rather than the four colored characters that most people know.
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Or was the class built as a "lone wolf" type character?
In short, does the class feel more like Batman (who's relunctant to work with a team) or like Captain America (who's the leader of a team)?
If they are Marvel vigilantes, they have to beat each other to a pulp before they can truly bond.
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If they are Marvel vigilantes, they have to beat each other to a pulp before they can truly bond.Or was the class built as a "lone wolf" type character?
In short, does the class feel more like Batman (who's relunctant to work with a team) or like Captain America (who's the leader of a team)?
Isn't that just how friendship works in general?
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Batman totally worked entirely by himself... except for Robin... and Batgirl... and the other Robin... and occasionally Catwoman... and the other Robin... and Nightwing... and The Justice League... and the other Robin...
Well, Robins tend to be less optimally made (some we newbies) and since they built bad or unfun characters eventually as Batman and them leveled they left since they weren't having fun.
Then next one entered, etc.
Nightwing was an earlier Robin that left and remade his character to rejoin. He learned his mistakes and avoided them this time.
Once when the DM noticed the Robins sucked the DM brought in a villain occasionally as Catwoman (a DMPC) to help out.
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If a vigilante can't work with other classes or other vigilantes, it's because the player wasn't trying hard enough or didn't actually want to.
Nothing says the players have to be involved with every aspect of the vigilante's life in social or vigilante mode, but nothing says they can't either and know both identities to be the same person and allied with both. Bunch of Justice League members know Batman is Bruce Wayne and that they all benefit from Batman using Bruce Wayne's resources helping them at times.
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If a vigilante can't work with other classes or other vigilantes, it's because the player wasn't trying hard enough or didn't actually want to.
Well, yeah, that's always a factor, but mecanic-wise, with the dual identity, I can see some friction occuring between civilians, especially since several of them can be nobles or other higher-ups.
Nothing says the players have to be involved with every aspect of the vigilante's life in social or vigilante mode, but nothing says they can't either and know both identities to be the same person and allied with both. Bunch of Justice League members know Batman is Bruce Wayne and that they all benefit from Batman using Bruce Wayne's resources helping them at times.
I'm pretty sure that none of them knew Batman's identity before that :P I recall one episode of the Justice League cartoon where Batman suggests to go undercover as civilians; Wonder Woman chuckles when she sees that the Flash, or Barry, is actually a redhead XD
If everyone knows each other in and out of the vigilante identity, pretty sure I can work out, but I feel like part of the vigilante's advantage to hide his or her alter ego.
Here is an interesting idea, what if the party started out as a group of business partners, nobles, or low level government people who decided to work together to better their city?
Here is an interesting idea, what if the party started out as a group of business partners, nobles, or low level government people who decided to work together to better their city?
Like I said, they can work together if they already know each others identities, but if they don't, that... can be complicated.
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I still don't see how it can be complicated unless players wanted it to be complicated. If there's a valid reason for a character to be go all vigilante-activities in a game, what's the issue other characters would have that one party member would want to keep a "normal life" on the sidelines?
Maybe you can give an example of a situation where it would get complicated with characters and how it would get complicated with players?
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Well, yeah, that's always a factor, but mecanic-wise, with the dual identity, I can see some friction occuring between civilians, especially since several of them can be nobles or other higher-ups.
Why? Or more accurately, why Vigilantes specifically? Everything you just said can be equally applied to any other Class. The Vigilante's social identity is no more likely to have conflict with another PC's social identity than their Vigilante identities are to conflict with each other. I mean, debatably, we're talking double the number of people who need to get along...but that's still not super hard.
If everyone knows each other in and out of the vigilante identity, pretty sure I can work out, but I feel like part of the vigilante's advantage to hide his or her alter ego.
So...you're worried about the Vigilante's social identities hating each other because they each don't know the other is their Vigilante friend? That's a really specific situation. It involves the social identities knowing each other and operating in the same social sphere but not already being friends, and then having some sort of incident. That's really specific. Indeed, I'm not sure I can think of any way for that to happen without either the GM or players actively being into the idea. In which case, it could be a lot of fun.
And it's no advantage at all to hide your alter-ego from people you trust completely. You do rather need to trust them completely for it to not be an advantage, but PC groups tend to trust each other after a bit.
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Each vigilante could even have a different archetype to act more like a "classic" adventuring party (a "base" avenger, a psychometrist stalker, a warlock, and a zealot to replace the "standard" fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric).
Alternately (or in addition!), you could have a group of evil cabalists running a secret society (using the organization rules in Chapter 3) or even a "shadow council" of vigilantes working from within to control all aspects of a city (classic intrigue hook).
Gah... Inspiration is both a wonderful gift and a cruel curse.
The good team:
Half-elf ranger (dandy) 2/vigilante (warlock) 12
Halfling investigator (psychic detective) 2/vigilante (psychometrist stalker) 12
Human vigilante (avenger) 14*
Human bard (wit) 3/vigilante (zealot) 11
The secret society:
Changeling spiritualist (shadow caller) 11; prophet, lover of leader
Human/part-human vigilantes (cultists) [varies]; society members (may include multiclassing)
The "shadow council:"
Gnome vigilante (magical child wildsoul/falconine) 12/brawler (snakebite striker) 2; working to control/corrupt the city's guilds (craft, magic, thieves', etc.)
Half-orc druid (skinshaper) 12/vigilante (stalker) 3; council leader, uses Skinshaping and mask of stolen mien to stay behind the scenes and/or infiltrate if needed
Human vigilante (brute wildsoul/ursine) 12/barbarian (wild rager) 2; smuggler, working to control/corrupt the city's workers/farmers
Human vigilante (cabalist wildsoul/arachnid) 12/inquisitor (umbral stalker) 2; leader of secret society, working to control/corrupt the city's rich (merchants, nobles); variant greater coat of the undercity based on spiders instead of cockroaches
*- Turned out as almost a combination of Batman and Daredevil
Vigilante Talents - Fist of the Avenger, Lethal Grace, Living Shield, Mad Rush, Shield of Blades, Signature Weapon (Kukri), Sucker Punch
Feats - Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Improved Critical (Kukri), Improved Grapple, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Piercing Grapple (nice synergy with Living Shield), Power Attack (B), Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (Kukri) (B), Weapon Specialization (Kukri) (B)
Key Gear - glamered mithral agile breastplate diviner's blight, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +2, quarterstaff of vaulting (V), +1 called cold iron kukri (V), +1 called mithral kukri (V), dagger of doubling (V), masterwork rapier in scabbard of vigor (S), masterwork sword cane w/heavy wrist launcher mechanism concealed in false-bottomed scabbard (S), armbands of the brawler (V), black marketeer's bag (for switching equipment between identities), blazing robe of fiery vanishing (14,900 gp; as both robe and cloak) (V), boots of speed, dead man's headband on hat of disguise, eyes of keen sight (V), gloves of swimming and climbing w/dust knuckles (often used with sneezing powder) (V), minotaur belt, quickchange +1 shield cloak of protection +1 (5,500 gp; abilities as all three cloaks), ring of force fangs, snakeskin tunic, wand of cure light wounds (50 charges)
(B)- bonus feat
(S)- used in social identity only
(V)- used in vigilante identity only
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So the question isn't "can vigilantes work together", but "can vigilantes who don't trust each other work together"?
Well I still think it can work, but it requires more work for the GM to do, and it may require for each person to get some solo time in if they are not always together like most parties.
As for them not knowing each other's secret identities I don't think Paizo intended for it be a secret from everyone, other than the PC's. I am sure the idea of vigilante groups is something they are cool with.
Even in an evil campaign they could be a bunch of supervillians with similar goals. They can still trust each other unless the group(players) are likely to be the backstabbing and killing your ally type of group. However in that case it is that playstyle not the vigilante idea that will be the issue.
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I don't see much of difference between Vigilante the class and any other class having a dual life. Rogues for example and the problems they can bring to party when their goals go against the party. The Vigilante is just another class with more tools to keep their dual life separate. So it's all how you play the character that decides if the character can work together and class doesn't really impact that.
And there was never a Marvel Team-Up title, or Spiderman teams up, and Brave & Bold was never a thing with DC and Batman, and there wasn't a Batman cartoon series that was basically all about who he was teaming up with for the day, and World's Finest with Superman and Batman never existed.
Nope, nope.
==Aelryinth
And there was never a Marvel Team-Up title, or Spiderman teams up, and Brave & Bold was never a thing with DC and Batman, and there wasn't a Batman cartoon series that was basically all about who he was teaming up with for the day, and World's Finest with Superman and Batman never existed.
Nope, nope.
==Aelryinth
I get that Avengers and the Justice League are teams composed of vigilantes. The main issue that I can see here is that the Vigilante focuses a lot on hiding his secret identity, be the social or vigilante one.
Some of the rules state that "revealing his true identity" can be "harmful"... I don't think they wrote that just for flavor.
And there was never a Marvel Team-Up title, or Spiderman teams up, and Brave & Bold was never a thing with DC and Batman, and there wasn't a Batman cartoon series that was basically all about who he was teaming up with for the day, and World's Finest with Superman and Batman never existed.
Nope, nope.
==Aelryinth
I get that Avengers and the Justice League are teams composed of vigilantes. The main issue that I can see here is that the Vigilante focuses a lot on hiding his secret identity, be the social or vigilante one.
Some of the rules state that "revealing his true identity" can be "harmful"... I don't think they wrote that just for flavor.
It is just flavor. Nothing says he has to be wanted by the law, just like not all superheroes are being hunted down with secret identities. They just don't want enemies targeting families. There is a difference between not letting an ally know vs not letting enemies know who you really are.
Judge by day, Judge Dredd by night. <--I might actually try this. In this case my identity being found out by the wrong person could make me lost my job, even if my hero status is seen as helpful because as a judge I am probably suppose to follow certain procedures, not just overlook them when the system fails. In this way it can be harmful to let someone people know, but I can still allow allies to know.
I get that Avengers and the Justice League are teams composed of vigilantes. The main issue that I can see here is that the Vigilante focuses a lot on hiding his secret identity, be the social or vigilante one.
Some of the rules state that "revealing his true identity" can be "harmful"... I don't think they wrote that just for flavor.
People knowing your identity doesn't effect many abilities.
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This answer is always going to be "it depends on your table narrative."
If you're looking for classical narrative examples, they do exist.
Many people have brought up super-teams full of characters who know each others' identities and work together fine.
Let's explore some other ideas in this thread:
**Can vigilantes who don't trust each other work together?** There are multiple examples that exist regarding this idea, especially since trust isn't a binary idea; the concept of trust is a wide gradient of grey that changes over the course of two peoples' (or characters') lifespans.
When Superman and Batman first met, Batman didn't trust Superman at all, and used coercion to leverage his assistance. Batman approached Superman and said, "I strapped a bomb to an innocent person; if you don't help me I'll blow them up." It turns out Batman wasn't lying; he strapped a bomb to himself, which he revealed to Supes after their coordination. It was an unhealthy start to their alliance.
Another story of characters who didn't know each others' identities is of Spider-Man and Black Cat. Black Cat started as a criminal, met Spider-Man on the street, grew romantic, and eventually gave up crime to patrol the city with Spider-Man. They trusted each other inasmuch that they worked together fully in their alter egos, but they didn't fraternize outside of their costumed life. In fact, their "work" chemistry was so strong, when Peter finally got the nerve to let Black Cat into his personal life, she was repulsed; it was *Spider-Man* she had the hots for, not *Peter Parker.*
**Revealing his true identity can be harmful** Again, there's a wide range of examples, and I think Spider-Man stories have explored almost every outcome of this idea. Peter has gained allies, lost allies, his family has been attacked, his villains have been reformed; we're also seeing these ideas played out again with this generation's new Spider-Man, Miles Morales.
The results of revealing your vigilante persona to your social peers or your social persona to your vigilante peers will have varying results.
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Also "can be harmful" is not a rule. It is just saying there might be consequences, which I described in my last post in more detail. <--------Late mention
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The "shadow council:"
Gnome vigilante (magical child wildsoul/falconine) 12/brawler (snakebite striker) 2
Human vigilante (brute wildsoul/ursine) 12/barbarian (wild rager) 2;
Human vigilante (cabalist wildsoul/arachnid) 12/inquisitor (umbral stalker) 2
Can you even stack wildsoul with those other archetypes? From the PRD:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
I mean, I don't really see the harm, and it looks like they might have been intended to be stackable, but brute, cabalist, and magical child all replace vigilante specialization, which is also altered by wildsoul.
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while Wonder Woman and J'onn didn't have secret identities at all.
True for the Perez reboot of Wonder Woman as Diana, who's not that fond of the "Wonder Woman" title slapped on her by the press. J"onn however would frequently desguise himself as a couple of different human apperances that would go by the name John Jones. He did not however invest in them the way Kal-El did in maintaining his Clark Kent Persona, as they would be temporary "slumming" guises.
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The "shadow council:"
Gnome vigilante (magical child wildsoul/falconine) 12/brawler (snakebite striker) 2
Human vigilante (brute wildsoul/ursine) 12/barbarian (wild rager) 2;
Human vigilante (cabalist wildsoul/arachnid) 12/inquisitor (umbral stalker) 2Can you even stack wildsoul with those other archetypes? From the PRD:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.I mean, I don't really see the harm, and it looks like they might have been intended to be stackable, but brute, cabalist, and magical child all replace vigilante specialization, which is also altered by wildsoul.
Considering that they are intended as NPC villains, not PCs, a little GM rules bending (that fits thematically with the druid BBEG council leader) will probably not be an issue. The biggest drawback for the cabalist and magical child characters is that all of their vigilante talents are used for archetype abilities.
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True for the Perez reboot of Wonder Woman as Diana, who's not that fond of the "Wonder Woman" title slapped on her by the press. J"onn however would frequently desguise himself as a couple of different human apperances that would go by the name John Jones. He did not however invest in them the way Kal-El did in maintaining his Clark Kent Persona, as they would be temporary "slumming" guises.while Wonder Woman and J'onn didn't have secret identities at all.
Actually if you read the JLA during the epic run, you'd know that J'Onn has both civilian and heroic identities in multiple countries around the world, often as intellectuals famous in those countries (and of both genders). In his multiple identities as a whole, he's probably more recognized then Superman.
==Aelryinth
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For more "epic" level type heroes could a combo of vigilantes and Mythic rules work?
Not got the Ultimate Intrigue book yet, so am just surmising a possibility...
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For more "epic" level type heroes could a combo of vigilantes and Mythic rules work?
That's the way I'm leaning for my vague work-in-progress Golarion Justice League campaign. Vigilante for the double-life, Mythic for the superpowers. Plus, on topic for the thread, if the PCs share the same mythic ascension event, it helps them know each other/work together.