I was sure I've heard of people who used conductive bows with kineticist.....
Technically, you need one hand free to direct the blast so it would work on any one handed ranged weapon. You can't gather power while holding something, but quick draw and cords exist so meh? It's not too much investment besides conductive if you want to make it work. The question is if it does more damage than just using a physical blast...
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Every other class has had versatile, viable builds out of the box.Kineticist has versatile, viable, builds out of the box. Several of them. There aren't as many of them as there eventually will be, but they sure exist.
There's pretty clearly a very defensive/utility oriented Aether/Earth build. A somewhat more offensive Earth build. A pure utility Aether build. A super-offensive Fire build (which has a big problem with Devils, but can manage a few tricks even vs.them). A nice balanced Water build. And a very effective Air build. I think there are a few more varieties as well, personally, but those are all pretty indisputable as workable and good.
And all also have a melee/switch hitter version as well as the pure ranged variant.
Not quite what I meant.
The different elements may as well be different classes the way the abilities are compartmentalized. You yourself could really only point out one (one and a half in the case of Earth and Aether) good build for each element.
Whereas at a base level every Barbarian in the CRB for example can be an archer, or a TWFer, or a 2H user, or a sword and board user, or a combat maneuver specialist, etc.
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Every other class has had versatile, viable builds out of the box.Kineticist has versatile, viable, builds out of the box. Several of them. There aren't as many of them as there eventually will be, but they sure exist.
There's pretty clearly a very defensive/utility oriented Aether/Earth build. A somewhat more offensive Earth build. A pure utility Aether build. A super-offensive Fire build (which has a big problem with Devils, but can manage a few tricks even vs.them). A nice balanced Water build. And a very effective Air build. I think there are a few more varieties as well, personally, but those are all pretty indisputable as workable and good.
And all also have a melee/switch hitter version as well as the pure ranged variant.
Not quite what I meant.
The different elements may as well be different classes the way the abilities are compartmentalized. You yourself could really only point out one (one and a half in the case of Earth and Aether) good build for each element.
Whereas at a base level every Barbarian in the CRB for example can be an archer, or a TWFer, or a 2H user, or a sword and board user, or a combat maneuver specialist, etc.
But not all at once.
Just as a kineticist can be a defensive, utility or offensive build or a mix of those at the cost of being as good as a specialist in those things.
Just as a Barbarian will build towards one style (and lets be honest the one style most build towards is two-hander, because it's the most damage). A kineticist will specialise you just need to know what you're aiming for at the beginning and build towards that.
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No, it was not inevitable. They chose to create an entirely new class, with an entirely new mechanic, give it five subclasses before archetypes, and then not dedicate the page space that was needed to supporting it.
I'm sorry, but given the basic premise of the Class (people who control one of the 5 Elements, but aren't spell-casters per se) this was indeed inevitable.
And that's a neat concept and works fine, but was never gonna have as many abilities per level as would be ideal starting out.
What would you have done, have only Fire and Aether in the book? Maybe then we'd have gotten, say, Water instead of Wood and Void. That's potentially mechanically viable, but it's terrible thematically and forces a huge portion of people to play an element they dislike, which would be way worse for sales and piss off way more people than the current setup.
Yes, I know Mark got extra space in the book for more talents. There should have been more still. There should never be a level where you're obligated to take Skilled Kineticist, or really any other universal talent, because you don't have an option from your element.
There are few of these. void is the only one that really seems to lack an option at a particular level.
I expect, not unreasonably, that each spell level for each element should contain three good choices to pick from. Not three choices, but three good ones. I should not have to look at an element and either have one option, like Void Kineticist 2 or Aetherkineticist 5, or a single obviously better choice like Air 6.
Air 6 is actually 2 options, with Flight and Haste both available. That's not as clear a choice as you imply.
As to good builds, there are not over a dozen good builds. There are essentially two good builds, because each of these elements is basically a different archetype. So, each version of this class has essentially two good builds, which is generally considered to be rather bad. Unless you like your Kineticist looking generally like each other Kineticist of the same role and element, in which case good on you.
Archetypes can be a single good build for a Class. Chained Monk has a setup much like that (admittedly sorta accidentally), and works fine with it.
Not quite what I meant.
The different elements may as well be different classes the way the abilities are compartmentalized. You yourself could really only point out one (one and a half in the case of Earth and Aether) good build for each element.
I could actually point out several more, those were just off the top of my head.
Whereas at a base level every Barbarian in the CRB for example can be an archer, or a TWFer, or a 2H user, or a sword and board user, or a combat maneuver specialist, etc.
There are plenty of options Kineticists have that are that meaningful. You can go pure melee, ranged, switch hitter, Elemental Annihilator (which is almost a whole separate Class), focus on utility/healing over damage, and of course go with an Energy or Physical blast (which is at least as big a deal as TWF vs. two-handing). Not all elements have quite all those options, but most have most of them.
And then, of course, there's the decision whether to diversify into a different element.
I don't think most of those are meaningfully different options.
To be fair, neither are the proposed Barbarian fighting styles, but at least you're not pigeonholed into a very specific flavor for those.
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I don't think most of those are meaningfully different options.
To be fair, neither are the proposed Barbarian fighting styles, but at least you're not pigeonholed into a very specific flavor for those.
All I said was that they were as different as the Barbarian options presented. :)
And I think the fact that the different elements legitimately do different things and feel different is one of the Class's best features. Very few people really want playing a pyrokineticist and a hydrokineticist to feel the same or work the same mechanically, or at least I don't think they do.
The Burn mecanic needs to be seen like a Metamagic feat: the cost can be high, but it's optional.
What I really, but REALLY hates about the class is the fact that you HAVE to fight unarmed. What's the point of having weapon proficiencies if nothing can be done to enhance them, let alone use them?
I can't hold an item, or a weapon, if you want to gather power... yeah... very practical...
I tend to use a cestus of alchemical silver or cold steel on each hand since I believe your hands are still free to gather power and to threaten and help provide flank for allies' turns. Well I believe that works, those things never seem to stop players from still using weapons or hold shields/items or open doors.
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Personally I think the kineticist should have a choice at each level if there wild talent is an infusion or utility. But other then that the class is by far one of the most customizable classes in the game, especially when more options finally become available.
I would also like to see alternate defense abilities for each element like energy resistance, dealing energy damage like fire(but for other elements), etc.
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As to Extra Wild Talent, I'm not in favor of feat taxes.
Just going back to this for a moment.
Either that word does not mean what you think it means, or it does not mean what I think it means.
A Feat Tax, to me, does not mean "something that is a no-brainer to take", it means "I would not take this at all unless something else later on that I do want requires it".
For example, Point Blank Shot is what I would consider a feat tax on Far Shot. If I wanted to build an archer that excels at sniping people from extreme long range, why would I ever want to take a feat that gives me bonuses to shooting something 5 feet away from me?
Thats a feat tax in my book, a feat that you would otherwise not take, except that it is required for something you do want to take.
A Witch's Extra Hex is not a feat tax, its just a very strong option that you would generally be silly not take at least once.
I think the definition here is that it's a tax for taking the class. As you yourself said, "You'd be silly not to take" so other would criticize you and judge you for not taking the feat. So you are taxed into taking it a least once so others don't tell you you're doing it wrong.
Oh you selected witch? Well you have less feats available to you since you NEED/MUST take extra hex at least once, if not every time.
But you don't actually have to take the feat so I agree that having strong and interesting options for feats by having extra is a good thing. If I want and extra hex I can, but I don't have to take that feat ever if my build doesn't have room for it.
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It falls back on the whole class features should be stronger than feats balance question. Rogue Talents suck. The best options for a rogue talents are once that grant you a feat. This means an extra rogue talent feat is underpowered. Hexes/Revalations/Rage Powers are more powerful than feats, so extra hex/revelation/rage power is an overpowered feat.
Wild Talents are also more powerful than feats, but by capping wild talents granted by extra wild talent to level-2, it is keeping the feat more balanced against other feats.
I don't think most of those are meaningfully different options.
To be fair, neither are the proposed Barbarian fighting styles, but at least you're not pigeonholed into a very specific flavor for those.
All I said was that they were as different as the Barbarian options presented. :)
And I think the fact that the different elements legitimately do different things and feel different is one of the Class's best features. Very few people really want playing a pyrokineticist and a hydrokineticist to feel the same or work the same mechanically, or at least I don't think they do.
I think there's a lot more room for overlap in Talents, but even if not, it's kind of annoying being forced into certain roles because of my element choice.
IF I pick Water or Aether, I'm forced into a secondary Utility role, because I HAVE to pick Utility Talents...they're the only ones available to me. Just as an example.
Meanwhile making an Earth based Utility character is next to impossible with the piddly utility options available to an Earth user.
Basically, if I want to hoot Water from my hands I have to deal with people asking me for healing, and if I want to throw things with my mind people are going to ask me why I don't have any ranks in Disable Device or Stealth, and if I want to throw lightning from my hands everyone is going to ask me why I suck so much. Not a big fan.
I think the definition here is that it's a tax for taking the class. As you yourself said, "You'd be silly not to take" so other would criticize you and judge you for not taking the feat. So you are taxed into taking it a least once so others don't tell you you're doing it wrong.
That's...not the definition used literally anywhere else though. If I used the phrase "take a walk" to mean "flew to the moon and back" maybe there's some circumstance where that makes sense, but it's certainly not going to be what everyone else understands it to mean.
I agree that it's not how the boards normally talk about feat taxes. As far as I know we only use it to mean a feat that you don't want on it's own but need for a feat you do want.
But trying to figure out what Mark is trying to say when he says that they are a feat tax since it obviously wasn't what we think it normally is.
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Honestly, I would be a lot more fine with the current EWT feat if we weren't penalized for expanding our elements at 7 and 15. Reward those for staying in, sure, but don't penalize for expanding. If you're going to establish that utility wild talents are every even level and infusions are every odd then keep that. Give bonus stuff for staying within but don't take away stuff for diversifying.
Honestly, I would be a lot more fine with the current EWT feat if we weren't penalized for expanding our elements at 7 and 15. Reward those for staying in, sure, but don't penalize for expanding. If you're going to establish that utility wild talents are every even level and infusions are every odd then keep that. Give bonus stuff for staying within but don't take away stuff for diversifying.
Yep, it's time for Kineticist Unchained.
Kineticist unchained! I am still waiting for unchained bard, cleric, sorcerer, swashbuckler, samurai, ninja, etc.
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I agree that it's not how the boards normally talk about feat taxes. As far as I know we only use it to mean a feat that you don't want on it's own but need for a feat you do want.
But trying to figure out what Mark is trying to say when he says that they are a feat tax since it obviously wasn't what we think it normally is.
Glad to answer: The thing I like about you Chess Pwn is that in a lot of threads, you're really good at asking the right questions. :)
During the playtest, there was some solid analysis that kineticist needed to gain, on a level-by-level basis, more "high-level" (meaning current) wild talents than it had, including some builds using a hypothetical EWT for top-tier wild talents. The conclusion the poster drew was that EWT needed to allow top-tier wild talents, and thus despite the fact that it's going to become a ubiquitous feat that blocks all other options, it would be worth it because the kineticist would have enough wild talents. I took a look at those analyses and determined that the playtester was 100% correct on the numbers, but I thought that the builds with all EWT were unbearably feat-faxed to reach that point. So essentially, I gave the kineticist all those full-level EWT feats as freebies by doubling the class's inherent growth (which is basically the same thing that would happen if you took the feat every time and it gave the topped-out wild talent). Essentially, I gave more than that person asked for in his or her analysis (I was able to get wings for it thanks to everyone's participation in the polls we did at the end, so thank you to all poll participants, and if you're this person, which really includes several other people who made similar analyses and not one person, bravo!). By eliminating the feat tax, I was able to leave Extra Wild Talent at the point where it's effective for versatility (and particularly synergistic with a second element, which is why we've seen here that the people who prefer mono-element tend to also use EWT less) but doesn't just flat-out increase raw power compared to someone who spends their feats elsewhere, leaving builds like Azten's mentioned in this thread, or Ravingdork's cool character emporium characters, to still be likely to snatch the feat up when it makes sense, but not to need to take it every time. If someone wanted to revert to the original wild talent progression and use a full level EWT? I think that's totally fine, but I feel it's less fun than the current version because it has too much of a feat tax for my taste.
So short version: If you need something to hit the right power level with your class, you shouldn't have to spend all your feats to get it, or it's a feat tax to me.
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It falls back on the whole class features should be stronger than feats balance question. Rogue Talents suck. The best options for a rogue talents are once that grant you a feat. This means an extra rogue talent feat is underpowered. Hexes/Revalations/Rage Powers are more powerful than feats, so extra hex/revelation/rage power is an overpowered feat.
Wild Talents are also more powerful than feats, but by capping wild talents granted by extra wild talent to level-2, it is keeping the feat more balanced against other feats.
Really? I must admit I had rather the opposite impression. The vast majority of wild talents seem awful to me. There are only about 5 or 6 wild talents total that I would consider worth buying. I'd rather take the feat than another wild talent any day. Probably why I don't play Kineticists I guess.
There are a lot more good wild talents then 5 or 6. While I am not a fan of having to take two talents for flight for aether or fire, I am happy about many of choices there are. I hope one day that many of the abilities I have on my kineticist wish list will happen one day. But only time will tell.
I also hope that the wood and void elements will get reprint in a hardcover book with an expanded list of wild talents.
There are a lot more good wild talents then 5 or 6. While I am not a fan of having to take two talents for flight for aether or fire, I am happy about many of choices there are. I hope one day that many of the abilities I have on my kineticist wish list will happen one day. But only time will tell.
I also hope that the wood and void elements will get reprint in a hardcover book with an expanded list of wild talents.
Well, the thing is though that it's much better flight than over versions of the same. Making it worth 2 talents seems about right to me.
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There are quite a few good talents, though most of them are deeeep in levels.
I can see spending two talents for a constant life bubble spell effect.
I can see why a lot of those abilities are deep in levels.
I hope to see other spells as constant spell effects such as freedom of movement, deathward, displacement, etc.
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I can see spending two talents for a constant life bubble spell effect.
I can see why a lot of those abilities are deep in levels.
I hope to see other spells as constant spell effects such as freedom of movement, deathward, displacement, etc.
Just saying, if I can get it as a magic item, it probably shouldn't require a ton of levels to get.
That particular example isn't too bad though, at 10th.
The ones I have gripes with are stuff like Flame Shield. 10th level AND costs a burn for a tiny bit of damage to melee attackers?
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Wouldn't be so bad if Fire's defense was relevant, and this is coming from the guy who's Pyrokineticist killed a cursed-into-bearform enemy with searing flesh.
My experience with Kineticist is that in our Runelords campaign, our double-earth Kineticist can put out so much damage with metal blast + maximize blast + impale that entire rows of enemies just keel over in a hilarious manner.
It occasionally frustrates our GM, since she can take 60-75%hp off most bosses in a single shot.
It also makes me glad we don't have a blaster wizard because kineticist is pretty much better at dealing damage than any wizard could hope for...
And burn has legitimately saved her life more than once by knocking her unconscious and causing enemies to pick another target instead of rocket tagging her. She even intentionally knocked herself out once for that exact reason.
I agree about flame shield being a lackluster one.
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Honestly, I would be a lot more fine with the current EWT feat if we weren't penalized for expanding our elements at 7 and 15. Reward those for staying in, sure, but don't penalize for expanding. If you're going to establish that utility wild talents are every even level and infusions are every odd then keep that. Give bonus stuff for staying within but don't take away stuff for diversifying.
I can agree here, so I'll just say what I would do to the class and the feat myself, and give my reasons.
-EWT is now a talent 1 level lower instead of 2.
Reason: I'm actually okay with it being lower, and if I'm being honest, all the Extra X feats should probably have this caveat to help make them weaker. They're still solid feats, and I know you wanted to avoid as you and I would describe it a "purple" feat, but as you and I discussed in my guide, purple isn't a bad thing. It's often vital to help make sure something can stand out.
A lot of builds I've seen lack focus because they lack the 'glue' feat that is EWT as a viable select. This leads to them just taking whatever feats are around and semi useful since in both OA and OO, the feats given to the kineticist...don't really help it. Also I agree that I have NEVER seen the Extra X talents as feat taxes, and the rationale given for them being considered such doesn't make much sense to me.
-Expanding into a different element grants an infusion, expanding into your own element grants an infusion AND a utility wild talent.
Reason: As has been said before, expanding into a new element as written now is a VERY jarring process. You're starting off with no talents for it aside from blast and basic (which isn't bad, but only gives the most BARE taste of what they're getting), which feels like such a solid stop, and a very wide gap between infusions to a lot of players.
Throwing them an infusion, even one at -2 levels, would help to ease that. In the same way, the reward for elemental fidelity feels on the low end, as it feels like something we should have gotten anyway being handed to us, so handing out an infusion AND utility wild talent feels more like a gift for staying loyal to an element.
These are just thoughts I've gathered through playing the class into the mid levels, I'd personally consider making the expanded element -1 level instead of -2 as well, but I'd rather give more value to EWT, which if modified in the suggested way could help the kineticist pick relevant talents to their secondary element rather than picking up the only valuable low talents (which for some elements is very poor, such as void).
EDIT: Let me actually mention that for myself, the Extra X feats are either used to fill a hole or when nothing else applies at a given level. Having that backup that also makes you feel more like you're integrating your build into the class itself (if you're adding an extra class feature, you feel more like whatever class you're building), which in my opinion is a good thing. I think I would consider the Extra X feats the "second best feat you can take, no matter what." That's what I like about them myself.
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My experience with Kineticist is that in our Runelords campaign, our double-earth Kineticist can put out so much damage with metal blast + maximize blast + impale that entire rows of enemies just keel over in a hilarious manner.
It occasionally frustrates our GM, since she can take 60-75%hp off most bosses in a single shot.
It also makes me glad we don't have a blaster wizard because kineticist is pretty much better at dealing damage than any wizard could hope for...
And burn has legitimately saved her life more than once by knocking her unconscious and causing enemies to pick another target instead of rocket tagging her. She even intentionally knocked herself out once for that exact reason.
This...raises so many questions. Mind you, I'm not saying Earth Kineticists are bad damage dealers (they're probably the best raw blasters IME, though I hear Pyros can be rad against anything not fire immune), but that's a lot to swallow that it's doing enough damage to be an issue, assuming your GM is torquing up Runelords like he should be (it's a really easy AP for even a decently optimized party).
1.) Why is your GM lining up all your enemies in neat little rows for your Kineticist to impale? Especially given how big most of the enemies in Runelords are.
2.) How is that Kineticist dealing with the MASSIVE Burn usage of that tactic?
That's 6 Burn, before mitigation. You have to be REALLY high level to do that for free (14th), by which point the game is almost over.
Plus you run into the daily Burn limit pretty quickly. Even assuming you don't take advantage of your Elemental Defense and Elemental Overflow (really, the only reason you probably want to take Burn), 3+Con mod is a pretty small limit. I'm guessing 9-10 Burn per day, max.
It's a pretty hefty chunk of damage (161 by my guess, since I'm guessing you just hit 11th or so. More if he's a Dwarf), but no more than your average 2H Barbarian is going to be putting out for less effort. Given the problem is him taking out 75% of bosses' HP (and not killing lines of mooks), the multi-target aspect really isn't a factor, I'm assuming?
The "Not having a lot of HP is an advantage because you can be knocked out instead of killed" argument is a whole 'nother matter. Being easier to take out of the fight is never an advantage unless your party TPKs. And even then, it's not much of one besides "Maybe we should capture the unconscious one and eat him later" instead of "dead".
There are a lot of reasons to like the Kineticist (and the fact that you can impale a bunch of dudes with a spike of metal awesomeness at all IS one of them, don't get me wrong) but "Can be knocked out easily" (being taken out of the fight is never a plus) and "Deals too much damage" (which Mark did a commendable job of making sure is basically impossible, much as I dislike being "optimization locked" with the class) are not them.
assuming your GM is torquing up Runelords like he should be
Not sure why you would assume what seems like the less likely possibility. A lot of GMs get APs because everything is already laid out and they don't need to tweak stuff much.
Anyway, at level 11 it's two burn a pop if you charge as a move action, and it's free if you have a round to prep. Seems reasonable.
1.) Why is your GM lining up all your enemies in neat little rows for your Kineticist to impale? Especially given how big most of the enemies in Runelords are.
The larger they are, the likelier they are to be lined up.
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Not in my experience. Having played Runelords, most areas are really large and open. Because giants don't like cramming themselves into small spaces.
So enemies spread out, or flank, or do everything normal sized enemies do because they built their lairs to accomodate creatures of their size.
And again, just speaking to my experience, both times I played Runelords the GM made it harder, and a lot of new Recruitments imply the same.
As well, 2 Burn is quite a lot overall (1/5 of your likely daily, on top of whatever you spent to max Overflow). Taking 2 rounds makes it a safe maneuver...but effectively halves the average damage done, only creating the PERCEPTION that it's a high amount.
I would love for alternate 20th level cap abilities for each element. Like energy immunities, status immunities, reduced burn cost of chosen element, DR, SR, fast healing, stat boost, etc.
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Bad news, you borked that up pretty bad. You still need the feat, and now you've made it suck on top of still needing it. Good job breaking it.
You really need to relax, Legio. I'm going to share with you a little idiom my father told me a long time ago and its amazing how true it is in life: "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Your posts are dripping with sarcasm and toxicity. You may have noticed that Mark has not once directly replied to your vitriol, or maybe you haven't, but I did notice. Your replies are coming off very antagonistic and likely aren't appreciated by him. So instead of attacking the designer, approach him politely and begin a dialogue about your review of the class. I guarantee that he will be more likely to listen to your criticism of his design if done in a constructive way as opposed to the equivalent of this: "You created something that I hate. You suck. Your design sucks. I demand you do things the way I want them done." Because, frankly, that's exactly how your posts are coming off, intended or not.
It is quite clear that you dislike the class design, which is completely fine. Different people have different tastes. I love the kineticist the way it is currently designed; do I want to see more Wild Talents? Heck yes I do (More options for this class can only improve it), and they will come with time. So take a deep breath and relax. I understand your impatience with wanting to see more Wild Talents sooner than later, but Paizo is in a position to support all their intellectual creations, not just one single class. Another thing to consider is this; when the Core Rulebook came out there were only a limited number of spells available for casters. That number has grown exponentially over the past 8 years or so. Occult Adventures is still very new in the Paizo products line. Be patient, more support will come in time.
In regards to EWT, I agree that I feel EWT is a bit too restrictive and would like to see a better balance, but that's because there are so many great Wild Talents to take! I am not a designer and can appreciate Mark's comments on why he felt it was better to be more restrictive than less.
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You know, one of the problems I think with the Kineticist is it's one of the only classes that revolves around a daily resource that does not gain more of that resource as they level up.
A level 20 kineticist can use burn only one more time than a level 1 kineticist without magic items to pad that out. Contrast with say, a wizard having twenty two times as many spell slots at twenty.
It's not a huge deal, but it means a lot of your lower level, weaker talents never get easier to use unless you can negate their burn entirely.
This is false. Elemental Overflow increases your CON, giving you bonus hitpoints and the ability to take more burn. As you level up you will gain a Belt to increase CON, giving you more HP and the ability to take more burn. Toughness and FCB give you more hitpoints, which are worth one more burn each.
You also get more efficient at using infusions and buffering burn to reduce the burn cost of talents.
A 20th level kineticist can use much more burn that a first level one.
I'm glad the OP tried Kineticist.
The Pregenerated Kineticist looks cool and some people want to be an energy blaster and just burn stuff... lol... so it fulfils that role in the magic based theme of general PFRPG.
Like many classes it's a mixed bag and that's a good thing. As a new class it has to balance with the existing classes... and there's room to grow as new materials come out.
I'd be surprised if something came out and it had no detractors on these boards. lol... just the cost of doing business...
You show a lot of wisdom here, Azothath (that's something I didn't expect to say to an Outer God! :D) It's hard for me sometimes, as I'd like to please as many people as possible. I remember when I was proposing the increased number of wild talents, one of the other designers was like "Is this just because people asked for more because if you make a class with fun things people want to have, they're always going to ask for more; even if you do this and double the wild talents, people are going to post and ask for more than that." And I made it clear that it wasn't just because people asked for more; they really gave thorough analysis, and I was fully convinced they truly needed more. I still am certain kineticists needed the additional wild talents they received. I'm certainly listening to the reports in threads like these (after all, errata happen), and I'm also receiving far more reports in other ways, such as personally speaking to players of kineticists at conventions. Everyone's game is a little different, and I hope people run things in a way that works well for their game; now, if they're playing in PFS, they need to play it as written, but I have data points that kineticists are thriving in PFS, and if anything more reports of them being a little too strong there, which doesn't match my math either, but is also useful data.
You know, one of the problems I think with the Kineticist is it's one of the only classes that revolves around a daily resource that does not gain more of that resource as they level up.
A level 20 kineticist can use burn only one more time than a level 1 kineticist without magic items to pad that out. Contrast with say, a wizard having twenty two times as many spell slots at twenty.
It's not a huge deal, but it means a lot of your lower level, weaker talents never get easier to use unless you can negate their burn entirely.
That's actually rather inaccurate. Elemental overflow alone can net you +3 burn/day with the stat increases. Ability increases can boost your CON. Infusion specialization makes the early, and eventually the mid game, infusions completely free. Gather power gets a boost at level 11. Your internal buffer should have 3 charges. And to top all of this off, you should only be actually taking combat burn (not counting beginning of the day burn to activate your elemental overflow) on select few circumstances when you really want to nova.
If you want to be more accurate to use your wizard example it would be more like all the wizard spells that are 2-3 spell levels lower than maximum possible known become cantrips (a double infused blast would be of a "spell level" equal to the two infusions added together). Infusion specialization is an always on deal.
Swoosh, I see where you're coming from; however, something to consider with the kineticist compared to other classes is that when a caster runs out of spells and does not have any magic "boosters" they are utterly hosed. Granted, high level casters have a TON of spells at their disposal; however, when those run out they are done. A kineticst can still do some wicked stuff with their resource (Burn) maxed out. With Infusion Specialist you can ignore 6 points of Burn without even having to GP/Supercharge, 1 Point off a Composite Blast with Composite Specialization, and get a free Empower with Metakinetic Master. So you are basically getting 8 points for free Burn Reduction. For example you could do a Blue Flame Blast with Explosion, Burning Infusion, Empowered for (20d6+1/2 Con+12+6)*1.5 in a 20' radius for 1 Burn if you don't Supercharge. That's a whole lot of damage for only 1 Burn, or 0 Burn if you spend a Move Action...
If a high level caster runs out of spells can't they just start burning* wands and scrolls?
*unintended
Yes, but he's making the statement that without having "boosting" items, the kineticist is an inherently weaker class because of this "crutch". My point is that every class is inherently weaker without all their "boosting" items.
The different is that I believe the opposite. I feel that the kineticist are less item dependent than other classes, especially at mid-levels. A good Con boosting belt, some STs items, and the kineticist appropriate items, and you're pretty much set. You can still due some amazing blasts with Infusion Specialization and Supercharge even when your Burn is maxed. When a caster's spells run out... and they don't have staves, wands, scrolls, etc... Then they cannot do anything.
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If a high level caster runs out of spells can't they just start burning* wands and scrolls?
*unintended
Yes, but he's making the statement that without having "boosting" items, the kineticist is an inherently weaker class because of this "crutch". My point is that every class is inherently weaker without all their "boosting" items.
The different is that I believe the opposite. I feel that the kineticist are less item dependent than other classes, especially at mid-levels. A good Con boosting belt, some STs items, and the kineticist appropriate items, and you're pretty much set. You can still due some amazing blasts with Infusion Specialization and Supercharge even when your Burn is maxed. When a caster's spells run out... and they don't have staves, wands, scrolls, etc... Then they cannot do anything.
Even though I really like Kineticist...
How often do you run out of spells? Like, it's great if you know your GM is a sadist running a campaign with heavy 24 hours to do a lot themes, but... *shrug* It seems hard to know the value of a Kin vs Caster in something that seems most games don't meta around.
How often do you run out of spells?
For a prepared caster? Frequently, actually. At the lower levels, anyway.
Its actually a reason I've always preferred spontaneous casters, I'll take the lack of flexibility in number of spells known in exchange for the "as long as I can cast that level spell, I can cast whatever I want" flexibility.
In general, I've always hated vancian casting. I just find it extremely annoying.
Though I do have to agree with one of the previous posters, for a class that is pretty obviously based on WotC's Warlock, I would rather have had an actual Warlock. There are both way too many wild talents and way too few due to how there are many elements with relatively few options per level due to how they are restricted by element.
The whole second element choice thing also ends up feeling artificially forced to me, I would have much preferred to see less elementally tied options that were basically reprinted across the board, and simply have had a single option with a bit of fluff text saying that it thematically changed based on what your element was.
For example, why bother reprint the Resistance talent over and over when you can just say "You can Resistance X to the element you chose" and save print space?. Or flight, if you're going to give it to multiple elements anyway, just print it once and say "You fly on winds, through jets of fire, by riding a floating rock, etc".
Would have meant less page space needed, less initial "Holy crap thats a lot of options" overload, and would make it easier to balance the various elements if they all got access to the same core powers.
But then, this is coming from someone with a background including Mutants & Masterminds (2e, specifically) which I consider to be one of the best all around systems out there. It does this heavily by saying "Here's a generic power, it deals damage at range. Make up a visual for it, tag it with an appropriate description, and go with it." So I much prefer being given a toolbox and a pile of wood as opposed to an Ikea kit.
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Honestly, I would be a lot more fine with the current EWT feat if we weren't penalized for expanding our elements at 7 and 15. Reward those for staying in, sure, but don't penalize for expanding. If you're going to establish that utility wild talents are every even level and infusions are every odd then keep that. Give bonus stuff for staying within but don't take away stuff for diversifying.
Strange how this «talent gap» issue seems to pop up everywhere. I've encountered it in each of the rough dozen of builds I've put together in preparation of my first actual Kineticist character (starting Iron Gods soon, yay!), and accounts of playing experience on these forums (including N. Jolly himself) always bring it up sooner or later.
Obviously, it's not a show-stopper, as evidenced by the droves of avid fans of the class (me included). I think the main reason why it has such a persistently nagging effect on the Kineticist community is not so much one of power or balance, but of expectation.
Upon cursory reading, the class appears to promise two things:
Only when you actually build a character or ten do you notice the discrepancy:
Don't get me wrong — what you do get out of the Kineticist class is still all kinds of awesome. Any martial blaster would be slobbering over the option of picking up a spammable AoE at 9th level. The problem is that the class seemingly giveth, then taketh away, which in psychology is well-known to be subjectively much worse than not getting something in the first place.
Off the top of my head, there are two simple ways I can think of by which this talent gap could be addressed:
Elements: universal; Spell level: 2; Cost: 2 Burn; Effect: 5' radius burst within 30', blast damage (half for physical blasts), Reflex negates.
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For my part, I love the idea of the Kineticist but hated the execution. As a melee character, kinetic blade/whip + Kinetic form is pretty awesome, but as ranged characters they seem pretty awful. The big issue I have is their lack of versatility outside of combat, and that you can really only have one element at a time. An elementalist should be able to choose powers from any element right from the beginning instead of just one. That would actually make them worth playing.
Also, I intensely dislike how restrictive the advancement process is: choose an infusion on odd levels and a utility on even levels. Advancement should be "choose a power every level". The vast majority of Kineticist powers are pure awful, it would have helped mitigate that awfulness if we had more freedom to choose the ones that aren't bad. Just my opinion though, there are definitely plenty of Kineticist fans out there.
I dont know that i see the lack of versatility. Aether is full of TK, can heal, can "fly" can lift enormous weights your gm is likely going to be unprepared for. I mean it has at will invisibility available to it, and a ton of skills that are pretty mediocre to crappy can have a whole lot of use when they're 0 burn at will class abilities. Warp wood at will is a lot crazier than people may initially give credit.
Its chalk full of at-wills that people usually spend resources on scrolls or wands for.
Now that the thread has been raised again, I would just like to put out there that the Kineticist is my second favorite class (right behind Alchemist) and my Fiancee's absolute favorite class and we're only level 6 for the moment.
She loves constant flight (and she really had to consider if she wanted that or Haste).
I had the hardest choice of Water Manipulator or Water Dancer for my sixth level, and I had a ton of 1st level choices that I am just now getting ready to snag with Extra Wild Talent.
7th level is easy for the lady, she's going air so she can get an infusion (Magnetic, here she comes). For me, I am torn between the new Positive Blast in the Psychic Anthology book so I can fight tough undead/haunts easier or sticking to my guns to get Torrent.
Now that a few more books have come out. I'm very satisfied with the options available for now, and can't wait to see what else there is to come. Someone mentioned it on this thread, but I really hope to see a splat book dedicated to kineticists! (We'll just blast away as we wait)