| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's a great class. It's a bad idea to think of it as "a sorcerer that doesn't run out of spells." More fun to think of the class instead as having a small collection of versatile but powerful abilities that you get to use creatively.
Personally I have a lot more fun with "can be always invisible, always flying, and can move 1000 lbs with your mind" than I do with "can cast 6th level spells." I'd rather have a few tools that I get to apply creatively than a huge collection of tools.
I think it's a great class. It's a bad idea to think of it as "a sorcerer that doesn't run out of spells." More fun to think of the class instead as having a small collection of versatile but powerful abilities that you get creatively.
Personally I have a lot more fun with "can be always invisible, always flying, and can move 1000 lbs with your mind" than I do with "can cast 6th level spells." I'd rather have a few tools that I get to apply creatively than a huge collection of tools.
Agreed, thats the sort of stuff that gets entire parties out of problems you cant hit with a sword.
While 'I don't like burn' is a valid opinion, I wonder whether it will become less prominent over the coming years.
Nope, still hate burn as much as I did the day I opened the pdf and read it for the first time.
One bright note is the addition of the Psychokineticist archetype. I can work with a minus to Will saves, Wisdom checks, and Wisdom-based skill better than I can non-lethal damage.
I've played two kineticists to double digit levels without needing to take burn beyond what I invest into all-day wild talents (like elemental defense) and in fights that I am entirely certain is the final fight of the day. It's not like you have to live with the specter of burn looming over your head.
Especially now that Kinetic Invocation exists, I'm pretty much only likely to take burn for Utility talents, it's not really needed when blasting. You just figure out what combination of infusions and metakinesis you can handle with gather energy + infusion specialization for a total of 0 burn and you select from those for each combat situation.
I've played two kineticists to double digit levels without needing to take burn beyond what I invest into all-day wild talents (like elemental defense) and in fights that I am entirely certain is the final fight of the day. It's not like you have to live with the specter of burn looming over your head.
Especially now that Kinetic Invocation exists, I'm pretty much only likely to take burn for Utility talents, it's not really needed when blasting. You just figure out what combination of infusions and metakinesis you can handle with gather energy + infusion specialization for a total of 0 burn and you select from those for each combat situation.
Utilities are the MAIN issue for me. If all I can use is a "combination of infusions and metakinesis you can handle with gather energy + infusion specialization"... I'm unexcited. If all I wanted was blasting, I might as well take a wizard/sorcerer. it's all the other interesting parts that get dragged down by burn.
Kinetic Infusions existing only further exaggerates what I dislike. Anything worth taking from it costs burn...
PS: I've also played two kineticists, though not get to double digit levels as I'm not that much of a masochist. I gave it a try but the more burn I needed to use the less I could take it.
I have a teke (telekineticist) that I'm slowly working on, and I'm debating whether to branch her out into either fire, or Air (for electrical bursts).
Inspired by a certain character in the third installment of a ferrous hero, I'm sure people can see why there might be a dilemma...
|
While 'I don't like burn' is a valid opinion, I wonder whether it will become less prominent over the coming years.Nope, still hate burn as much as I did the day I opened the pdf and read it for the first time.
I believe he was talking about the number of people that share it, not those who have it relaxing.
I believe he was talking about the number of people that share it, not those who have it relaxing.While 'I don't like burn' is a valid opinion, I wonder whether it will become less prominent over the coming years.Nope, still hate burn as much as I did the day I opened the pdf and read it for the first time.
I answered both. I'm still someone that hates it AND I hate it as much as I did. I can't answer for others on that question, just how I personally think about it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks to the OP for giving it a try, and I'm really glad you're enjoying!
As to Extra Wild Talent, I'm not in favor of feat taxes. When the data indicated that the kineticist needed to learn more wild talents from the playtest, as I suspected, I could have kicked up Extra Wild Talent to any wild talent and forced kineticists to acquire the needed talents by taking it. That's what some people asked for to fix the concern, since there wasn't another obvious option on the table, and other than being a big feat tax for every kineticist, it would have worked fine. But instead I decided to get the OK to just more-or-less double the wild talents known without spending any feats, with a similar result to spending everything on full level Extra Wild Talent with the playtest version, because if you need more stuff, you should just get what you need for free, and Extra should be a true extra, picking up the power you left behind at early levels because you feel like it, not picking up a top tier power that you need because you don't get enough of them. This way, you're not locked into a (optimization guide color code) "deep blue" cookie cutter feat loop like witches and alchemists and instead have a variety of feats to suit your concept, even some longer chains like Eldritch Heritage if you can meet the prereqs, available for diversification. I've been watching a lot of times that a new player asks "Is there a feat build I have to take for my kineticist" and time and people are usually advising "You only need a few feats and afterwards you have lots of feats to spare, so find a flavorful feat chain that you like and go for it," and I'm happy each time I hear it (so if you're one of the people who made that kind of suggestion, thanks!).
This is a slightly old post by now, but I just wanna point out how fantastic of an idea the utility/infusion talent split was. Basically "requiring" players to pick things that increase versatility by making them not compete with things that directly increase power was a wonderful decision and I'm glad that it continued forward with the Vigilante. You can actually pick those things that "might" be useful out of combat without losing out on the stuff that will be useful in combat.
Then you didn't answer it.
LOL If that wasn't a valid answer then it can never be answered then.
Burn has been a definite turnoff for me, but having seen it in play, I can probably work around it.
My real problem is not having a character concept for it.
So you're a maybe?
I figure I'll play every class, given time. Vigilante is one of my flavors of the week right now.
I've warmed up to the Vigilante since they added some social talents like Obscurity and Seemless Shapechanger and the Teisatsu archetype.
And I understand trying every class. I REALLY wanted to like the kineticist and tried twice to make it work. I MAY try a Kinetic Knight but only if I can play it with Psychokinetcist: they technically don't mix because they both add adds Sense Motive to class skills but I hope that's a small enough issue to overcome.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Then you didn't answer it.
Burn has been a definite turnoff for me, but having seen it in play, I can probably work around it.
My real problem is not having a character concept for it.
I want to play in an all dwarf earth and stone party some time.
Geokineticist and Stonelord as the front lines, earth element wizard, forgepriest of torag. Wysps and elementals. All the dr/half level on the front lines you could want.
I figure I'll play every class, given time. Vigilante is one of my flavors of the week right now.
I feel like all the classes I haven't played and probably won't, at this point, are ones that are in the core rulebook and I had already seen enough of in previous iterations of the game.
But Occult Adventures is probably my favorite Pathfinder book, and of the classes in the book I'd say the Kineticist is easily in the top 3 most fun and functional (along with the psychic and occultist).
But Occult Adventures is probably my favorite Pathfinder book
It's the opposite for me. Occult is my least favorite hard cover. Not counting the kineticist, casters really didn't stand out to me. I've tried a Spiritualist [Ectoplasmatist] but that's about it as I've been having trouble getting the motivation to play any of the others. Maybe a future archetype will catch my eye and I'll try one of them then.
And again, just speaking to my experience, both times I played Runelords the GM made it harder, and a lot of new Recruitments imply the same.
It's a bit off-topic, but as someone currently running a RotRL AE game I can say I have felt I had to amp up the difficulty. It seems that the AP is deliberately designed to be easy, with only a few spots where a boss creature poses a threat.
Going by the stuff in the CRB:
Table: Encounter Design
Difficulty Challenge Rating Equals…
Easy APL –1
Average APL
Challenging APL +1
Hard APL +2
Epic APL +3
It seems like a lot of the encounters in the book are "easy" or even lower (sometimes APL-2). Particularly in the middle sections. A lot of the times you are facing monsters that would have been appropriate enemies two or three levels earlier, but are now not much of a threat.
-------
Anyway, I definitely agree that there are too many weak options in the Kineticist class.
I was looking at the class a while back, thinking I might like to try a water kineticist with the cold blast. I wanted the cold blast because it is an energy attack and targets touch AC; it seemed to me that a physical blast just duplicates hitting someone with a weapon. Who cares if I can target normal AC with a ranged attack? I can do that with a bow.
So I started looking at Infusions that work with cold blasts. And it turns out the only ones that do are universal infusions. There is not a single infusion in the book that helps cold energy blasts specifically. 8-(
Another thing that occurred to me was that while Kineticists have these limitations that make them feel like half a class to me, they would be really good in an "airbender" kind of gestalt campaign where one side of your gestalt was always Kineticist. For this game I envisioned that you would use the HP, BAB, Saves, and Skills of your non-kineticist class.
Playing one atm - here are my early impressions (level 1-6) - I'm playing a fire kineticist.
Damage: So far damage has been fine - it's steady damage that's easy to hit with. I'd say it's above average for the first few levels vs. other classes but doesn't outshine a big 2 hander fighter/barb.
Utility: not really - lack of options and many 'must haves' for later stuff that frankly are kind of lackluster. Some of the stuff I'm soon to get has me excited but mostly the class is fireblast spam.
Burn: This is the least exciting thing about the entire class - not because it's difficult to manage. More because you don't really need to manage it. The number of times that you feel like you *want* to take more burn than you can mitigate with gather power is very very small. At level 6 I'm forcing myself to burn until the damage/hit bonuses max out then I don't really worry about it for the rest of the day - in the odd situation where I have to move and still use burn or make a big splash it doesn't feel like there is any tension.
Actually the biggest thing I can say about burn is that it makes the class so much more complicated to play keeping track of what each power costs and such - however once you get *that* figured out your actual list of powers is small enough that you quickly figure out standard 'this costs nothing' attacks and 'this needs gather power' and 'if I use these two together and gather power I take a point of burn'.
Early levels conclusion:
A bit of a boring class - even the fighter feels like it has more options at the early levels. Solid in the execution and party utility though - and a very solid steady damage dealer.
If I were to change things up here is what I'd do:
Start with 2 elements and allow more abilities - perhaps with some kind of switch mechanic so you only had one 'on' at a time.
Burn: I think this entire mechanic is wonky - honestly at the end of the day I should feel like I *want* to use my burn and agonize over using a point or not. Currently I want to use burn to power up and then don't think about it much and hardly care if I need to use a point now and then.
I'd like to see burn be more of a mechanic that lets you do something cool and makes you want to spend it and try to maximize it's use. The non-lethal damage part of burn is fine - the ways you use it is just overly complicated and lacks the motivator that makes burn so awesome you want to use it as much as possible.
Playing one atm - here are my early impressions (level 1-6) - I'm playing a fire kineticist.
Damage: So far damage has been fine - it's steady damage that's easy to hit with. I'd say it's above average for the first few levels vs. other classes but doesn't outshine a big 2 hander fighter/barb.
Utility: not really - lack of options and many 'must haves' for later stuff that frankly are kind of lackluster. Some of the stuff I'm soon to get has me excited but mostly the class is fireblast spam.
Burn: This is the least exciting thing about the entire class - not because it's difficult to manage. More because you don't really need to manage it. The number of times that you feel like you *want* to take more burn than you can mitigate with gather power is very very small. At level 6 I'm forcing myself to burn until the damage/hit bonuses max out then I don't really worry about it for the rest of the day - in the odd situation where I have to move and still use burn or make a big splash it doesn't feel like there is any tension.
Actually the biggest thing I can say about burn is that it makes the class so much more complicated to play keeping track of what each power costs and such - however once you get *that* figured out your actual list of powers is small enough that you quickly figure out standard 'this costs nothing' attacks and 'this needs gather power' and 'if I use these two together and gather power I take a point of burn'.
Early levels conclusion:
A bit of a boring class - even the fighter feels like it has more options at the early levels. Solid in the execution and party utility though - and a very solid steady damage dealer.
If I were to change things up here is what I'd do:
Start with 2 elements and allow more abilities - perhaps with some kind of switch mechanic so you only had one 'on' at a time.
Burn: I think this entire mechanic is wonky - honestly at the end of the day I should feel like I *want* to use my burn and agonize over using a point or not. Currently I...
I'd say the burn part is pretty spot on. Don't get me wrong, I love this class, but my fiancee literally just builds burn on her enveloping winds until she has all overflow bonuses and then she never messes with it again (except for the rare desire to use Air Shroud on the party). My character struggles to get the burn for overflow as a hydrokineticist. I only took the Healing talent just to have a reason to burn throughout the day. "NO CLERIC! LET ME HEAL HIM SO I CAN GET STRONGER!" is something I run into a lot.
Maybe at level 7 when I have access to making my own composite blasts it will mean more, but for now its just a tool that I want to use, but have a hard time doing so due to all the reduction features and most utility talents don't even cost a burn (unless you choose to).
|
My 2 cents.
Burn:
Playing up to 6th level as an aether kineticist. I only burn for Force ward. I can see the other elements gaining burn from their composite blasts from 7th-10th level (until gather power covers the 2 burn). Or other good wild talents (Haste, healing, . I wish I had the healing wild talent, but I want to have the basic TK powers so I am still focused.
Damage:
At the moment I do a ton of damage. (3d6 + 13)x1.5. And I have no offensive aiding magic items. That is just an empowered physical blast + con + over flow + point blank shot, 0 burn with a move action gather power. I've thrown our enemies own weapons, tables, feces, and dead fish. I get to hit people with weird things. It is fun.
Utility:
I am invisible at will. I can disable device and slight of hand at a distance. I can pick up heavy objects with my mind. I have avoided traps with my telekinesis and I have tailed people to find out valuable information for the group. I am and feel useful. Next level I can throw enemies into range of our full attack PCs.
Future character options:
I feel I will have a lot of interesting things to do at higher levels. Grappling walls seem very fun. Ranged combat maneuvers are interesting, healing allies and animating objects, and boosting my combat and criminal abilities even higher. I am excited for more options to be released and have enough choices now to have fun too.
learning the class:
I had to read the class a few times and work it out. When playing It is not hard or a lot of page space to write the burn cost next to your abilities and sorting them by infusions and wild talents. But it is a different system and there are a few infusions that are confusing like flurry of blasts.
|
Thanks for your in-game experiences! Regarding Burn, that's pretty much what I intend to do as well: Burning up to Overflow and keeping the rest for the rare emergency.
Ckorik: That «spamming fire blast» playstyle sounds a bit like the talent gap problem making itself noticeable. At least you should have Fan of Flames at your disposal — doesn't that allow for more variety? I imagine as a Pyro I'd spend most of my combat maneuvering on trying to place Fans among the enemies.
GeneticDrift: You make a really good case for the Telekineticist. Are you ever using the «rare metals» part of your simple blast, e.g. with adamantine bullets? I guess it's usually not worth it?
I do strongly recommend the Telekineticist for anybody's first time out with the class. You have less offensive potential out of the gate (and really "before you get your third element") than other choices you can make at chargen, but you get a lot of fun utility (look for traps by picking up a boulder with your mind and smashing it against everything in sight!) and your burn is easier to manage (just invest up to your overflow limit in force ward when you do your daily preparation) than for other elements. Plus, since your composite blast is equally underwhelming with every second element, you can expand in a lot of different ways (go earth for tankiness, or air for the best flying, or anything else you want).
There are few better feelings I've had playing Pathfinder than a particularly well timed Foe Throw that lands.
Thanks for your in-game experiences! Regarding Burn, that's pretty much what I intend to do as well: Burning up to Overflow and keeping the rest for the rare emergency.
Ckorik: That «spamming fire blast» playstyle sounds a bit like the talent gap problem making itself noticeable. At least you should have Fan of Flames at your disposal — doesn't that allow for more variety? I imagine as a Pyro I'd spend most of my combat maneuvering on trying to place Fans among the enemies.
GeneticDrift: You make a really good case for the Telekineticist. Are you ever using the «rare metals» part of your simple blast, e.g. with adamantine bullets? I guess it's usually not worth it?
I do. The thing is a 15 foot cone means you are going to get into melee range - which isn't the greatest place in the world to be. I took the burn (which is fun when it lands) and extended range infusions also. The short of it is, in the campaign I'm playing in we will fight many good outsiders (wrath of thrune) - this is why I took fire - they all have DR - many energy immunities - but fire is actually useful against all the celestial host (even if they are resistant) - knowing this I took burn to help reduce the fire resistance at higher levels - and range (to unlock other things later).
This is really the complaint with the fighter - lots of feats but so many must haves are just kind of bland (even if they lead to cool stuff) - chains of stuff never feel fun - they just kind of suck - again I'm in review mode and this is opinion.
That's why I'd like to see you pick both your elements off the bat and get more options (choose powers for each) but only can be 'in' one at a time - with say a 5 minute or 10 minute change timer that makes it possible to swap but not easy. I'd then make level 7 not your '2nd element' but instead make it so that's when you can use both at the same time - and then unlock your early choices for powers at each X level until you are fully realized.
Playing with the options of the character - I see tons of fun stuff that I'll have access too *SOON* so :)
I do strongly recommend the Telekineticist for anybody's first time out with the class
Yeah I can totally see that - frankly if it weren't for the specific types of enemies we are fighting I'd have stared there. I'm torn between Aether and Earth as a second element and I'm unsure what I'll go with when I get it.
|
|
Hmmm... it does sound like fun, though the Fort negates part is a bit problematic against many foes.
I'm tempted to go Tele instead of Aero for my Iron Gods character, especially since invisibility might be more useful in dungeons than flight. Thematically, they both make sense. Then again, I really want an AoE by 7th level, so Aero will probably win out.
|
|
GeneticDrift: You make a really good case for the Telekineticist. Are you ever using the «rare metals» part of your simple blast, e.g. with adamantine bullets? I guess it's usually not worth it?
I have not been using the alternate option for my kinetic blast. How much DR would it take for the option to deal more damage?
I have thought of a use once I get foe throw at 7th level. To launch them at melee allies (or their gear) who are not standing on the ground. This is a odd case since I am in an aquatic campaign and we might not be around anything solid, but maybe it will work with flyers and the falling damage will help keep the damage good.
The visual of launching this at an ally in the sky who has a readied vital strike to launch the foe back to the ground is fun.
|
|
I always really love reading on Kineticist threads. Everyone is really passionate about the class. Mark did a great work on this. :)
Indeed! :)
I have not been using the alternate option for my kinetic blast. How much DR would it take for the option to deal more damage?
Yeah, that option only seems to matter at levels where those DRs typically don't come into play...
I have thought of a use once I get foe throw at 7th level. To launch them at melee allies (or their gear) who are not standing on the ground. This is a odd case since I am in an aquatic campaign and we might not be around anything solid, but maybe it will work with flyers and the falling damage will help keep the damage good.
I admit Foe Throw sounds all kinds of awesome, and its damage potential is even greater than the typical Impale shot (I assume it's difficult to hit more than 2 targets consistently), since tossing an enemy prone usually means extra damage in the following round. The Fort negates aspect strikes me as a huge disadvantage, though, since especially the big bad enemies often have sky-high Fort saves. Well, I suppose you could throw their minions at them if they have them... And Kineticist save DCs can be pretty damn high, too. Incidentally, do you know if Ability Focus works on Kinetic Blast?
What's your experience with the temporary hitpoints feature? Does it pull its weight?
I think it's a great class. It's a bad idea to think of it as "a sorcerer that doesn't run out of spells." More fun to think of the class instead as having a small collection of versatile but powerful abilities that you get to use creatively.
Personally I have a lot more fun with "can be always invisible, always flying, and can move 1000 lbs with your mind" than I do with "can cast 6th level spells." I'd rather have a few tools that I get to apply creatively than a huge collection of tools.
I agree with your opinion. To me, the Kineticist is a very specialized caster similar to a fighter with its signature weapon.
I got into an argument where I explained that an electrokineticist is "better" than a regular spellcaster, mostly due to the at-will abilities. However, several people came back on me with the argument that a spellcaster is more versatile and the electricity spells are better than the electric blast. I just gave up and left...
Look, a kineticist has less options than a spellcaster, be arcane, divine or psychic, but these options are FAR more accessible than any spell. Between an at-will Kinetic Blast and a daily-usable arcane school power, bloodline power or domain power, I'll take the blast any day. Between struggling about "casting a spell to identify an item and shooting fire out of my hand so I don't waste a slot" and struggling about "how powerful my next blast should be according to my health", I'll take the health problem over the slot power.
The Kineticist is essentially Paizo's answer to D&D's Warlock, come on, that class was nice ^_^
JiCi: Warlock was nice because it was truly an at will class. That's not really true for the kineticist. FAR too many things require burn to work for it to be comparable to warlock.
I think the Kineticist is an improvement on the warlock because it eventually gets to do a lot more interesting things (as you have the option of making them cost burn) and you likewise have the option to do things a level or two before you're able to do them for free by committing burn to them, if you want.
I mean, Psychic Anthology has a feat that lets the Telekineticist get Etheric Shards as a 5th level wild talent for 1 burn. Etheric Shards is a really good spell, and letting anybody cast it as often as possible is unreasonable. So the choice is "limited access to Etheric Shards" or "no access to Etheric Shards" and I think the former is preferable.
JiCi: Warlock was nice because it was truly an at will class. That's not really true for the kineticist. FAR too many things require burn to work for it to be comparable to warlock.
I'm not sure where you keep running into that.
A vast majority of utility talents are burn free (for powerful effects), and infusions get huge reductions to where they are often free. And for the few utility talents that cost burn (which is typically 1), the class gets the buffer to where they can reduce the cost of even those.
And burn really isn't that bad to take (as long as you you manage it like any resource). My fiancee has 3 burn currently at the beginning of every day which turns out to be 18 hp of her 75 hp being non-lethal. That gives her an effective 57 hp for the day at level 6. Compared to a fighter with the average +3 modifier (70 with FCB and Toughness as well), that's not bad at all for a mid-long range combatant. I personally struggle to get to that level of burn because my defense isn't spammable.
To each their own though. I'm just saying that the fiancee's and my experience feels much different than yours.
JiCi: Warlock was nice because it was truly an at will class. That's not really true for the kineticist. FAR too many things require burn to work for it to be comparable to warlock.I'm not sure where you keep running into that.
A vast majority of utility talents are burn free (for powerful effects), and infusions get huge reductions to where they are often free. And for the few utility talents that cost burn (which is typically 1), the class gets the buffer to where they can reduce the cost of even those.
And burn really isn't that bad to take (as long as you you manage it like any resource). My fiancee has 3 burn currently at the beginning of every day which turns out to be 18 hp of her 75 hp being non-lethal. That gives her an effective 57 hp for the day at level 6. Compared to a fighter with the average +3 modifier (70 with FCB and Toughness as well), that's not bad at all for a mid-long range combatant. I personally struggle to get to that level of burn because my defense isn't spammable.
To each their own though. I'm just saying that the fiancee's and my experience feels much different than yours.
Yeah i mean, its odd that people worry about burn for a class for whom starting at a 20 con is absolutely a reasonable build choice. no one really NEEDS +5 hp a level
PossibleCabbage: There where plenty of cool powers. You could change into a swarm, travel to the plane of shadows, polymorph foes, animate dead, chilling tentacles and all sorts of things. Add to that all the similar affects that added to blasts where also free. All at will.
Link2000: Well I played the class twice, and the warlock before in 3.5, and I can read... Now I'll agree some abilities ARE without burn, and often strangely so like reverse gravity.
Lets see: Several like thorns flesh and evasion cost burn to start.
Several like Aether architect/puppet, Corpse Puppet, elemental grip, Forest Siege only if I don't want to concentrate on them
Some like Air shoud if you want to give it to others
Air leap if you want to jump farther
Some like Celerity, Earthmeld, Wind Manipulator only if you want it to last more duration.
Flame Trap? if you want more than 1
Force Barrier? 1 burn per round
That's before we get to ones like Purging Flame and Heat Wave that always have a cost. I know I can go out of my way to pick ones that have no cost but that often narrows the possible options quite a bit. For instance, if I take void I have to start picking universal talents if I don't want one that costs burn. Then if I don't take another element all 4th level abilities use burn [and 7&8th levels have no utilities].
Ryan Freire: Quite honestly, I could care less about the HP left after burn loss. It doesn't get rid of the loss that I can't do anything to mitigate. Having more hp than the average mage doesn't make me forget the temp hp I've lost. I can't get behind having to damage myself to power-up. I'd rather have something like a smaller hit die and not take burn instead of gaining a lot of hp only to have to then take them away before I can do anything cool. My old scarred witch didn't have to stab herself because I wanted to cast a spell and I got to keep my hp until someone else took them away.
It's clear some people have no problem with the arrangement but there are those of us that don't. Some people are ok using hp as a resource but it's never felt right to me.
Yeah i mean, its odd that people worry about burn for a class for whom starting at a 20 con is absolutely a reasonable build choice. no one really NEEDS +5 hp a level
And if you're that worried about health you can just take the HP FCB, or the Toughness feat (Kineticist has a lot of free feat slots).
Yeah i mean, its odd that people worry about burn for a class for whom starting at a 20 con is absolutely a reasonable build choice. no one really NEEDS +5 hp a levelAnd if you're that worried about health you can just take the HP FCB, or the Toughness feat (Kineticist has a lot of free feat slots).
I do both, my kineticists pull 12 hp a level. then burn 3 to 4ish on avg for 8 hp a level.
PossibleCabbage: There where plenty of cool powers. You could change into a swarm, travel to the plane of shadows, polymorph foes, animate dead, chilling tentacles and all sorts of things. Add to that all the similar affects that added to blasts where also free. All at will.
Link2000: Well I played the class twice, and the warlock before in 3.5, and I can read... Now I'll agree some abilities ARE without burn, and often strangely so like reverse gravity.
Lets see: Several like thorns flesh and evasion cost burn to start.
Several like Aether architect/puppet, Corpse Puppet, elemental grip, Forest Siege only if I don't want to concentrate on them
Some like Air shoud if you want to give it to others
Air leap if you want to jump farther
Some like Celerity, Earthmeld, Wind Manipulator only if you want it to last more duration.
Flame Trap? if you want more than 1
Force Barrier? 1 burn per roundThat's before we get to ones like Purging Flame and Heat Wave that always have a cost. I know I can go out of my way to pick ones that have no cost but that often narrows the possible options quite a bit. For instance, if I take void I have to start picking universal talents if I don't want one that costs burn. Then if I don't take another element all 4th level abilities use burn [and 7&8th levels have no utilities].
Ryan Freire: Quite honestly, I could care less about the HP left after burn loss. It doesn't get rid of the loss that I can't do anything to mitigate. Having more hp than the average mage doesn't make me forget the temp hp I've lost. I can't get behind having to damage myself to power-up. I'd rather have something like a smaller hit die and not take burn instead of gaining a lot of hp only to have to then take them away before I can do anything cool. My old scarred witch didn't have to stab herself because I wanted to cast a spell and I got to keep my hp until someone else took them away.
It's clear some people have no problem with the arrangement but there are those of us that don't. Some...
Don't forget that the Kineticist has stuff like Gather Power and Infusion specialization to reduce Burn.
Yeah i mean, its odd that people worry about burn for a class for whom starting at a 20 con is absolutely a reasonable build choice. no one really NEEDS +5 hp a levelAnd if you're that worried about health you can just take the HP FCB, or the Toughness feat (Kineticist has a lot of free feat slots).
LOL It was never about the HP I have or can gain but the ones that get taken away but a class feature. I'd still dislike burn if it only took 1 nonlethal hp away instead of 1/level.
Don't forget that the Kineticist has stuff like Gather Power and Infusion specialization to reduce Burn.
Those don't work on utilities. I'm unworried about the blast as there ARE abilities to mitigate those. It's abilities like overflow and utilities that REQUIRE a burn that can't be mitigated. If I could play the class without EVER using burn, that would be one thing, but that requires not using large swathes of the class.
The Psychokinetcist, for instance, makes the burn MUCH more palatable to me. I just wish it meshed better with other archetypes so I could just play what I wanted without punching myself in the face to make it work.
...PossibleCabbage: There where plenty of cool powers. You could change into a swarm, travel to the plane of shadows, polymorph foes, animate dead, chilling tentacles and all sorts of things. Add to that all the similar affects that added to blasts where also free. All at will.
Link2000: Well I played the class twice, and the warlock before in 3.5, and I can read... Now I'll agree some abilities ARE without burn, and often strangely so like reverse gravity.
Lets see: Several like thorns flesh and evasion cost burn to start.
Several like Aether architect/puppet, Corpse Puppet, elemental grip, Forest Siege only if I don't want to concentrate on them
Some like Air shoud if you want to give it to others
Air leap if you want to jump farther
Some like Celerity, Earthmeld, Wind Manipulator only if you want it to last more duration.
Flame Trap? if you want more than 1
Force Barrier? 1 burn per roundThat's before we get to ones like Purging Flame and Heat Wave that always have a cost. I know I can go out of my way to pick ones that have no cost but that often narrows the possible options quite a bit. For instance, if I take void I have to start picking universal talents if I don't want one that costs burn. Then if I don't take another element all 4th level abilities use burn [and 7&8th levels have no utilities].
Ryan Freire: Quite honestly, I could care less about the HP left after burn loss. It doesn't get rid of the loss that I can't do anything to mitigate. Having more hp than the average mage doesn't make me forget the temp hp I've lost. I can't get behind having to damage myself to power-up. I'd rather have something like a smaller hit die and not take burn instead of gaining a lot of hp only to have to then take them away before I can do anything cool. My old scarred witch didn't have to stab herself because I wanted to cast a spell and I got to keep my hp until someone else took them away.
It's clear some people have no problem with the arrangement but there are
the ones that were pointed out were utility talents. Gather power and infusion specialization does nothing for those.
If Graystone has a problem with it, it's their right to have it. I was just mentioning that I don't feel the same way.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know I have been reading this for a while now and I have written this post a few times and then deleted it because i didn't want to sound like an ass. But seriously the b@#~@ing about burn is ridiculous. It isn't that bad and the arguments have been cyclical about it. I mean complaining about the kineticists burn is like complaining that barbarians rage. Building a barbarian with a 20 Chr and wanting to do diplomacy is never going to work well, can you do it still, sure. Building a kineticist that never takes burn is doable but super inefficient. Saying you want a kineticist that doesn't use burn is like saying you want a barbarian that doesn't rage. I mean i get that you might not like a class but complaining that a square isn't a circle is absurd.
You know I have been reading this for a while now and I have written this post a few times and then deleted it because i didn't want to sound like an ass. But seriously the b$!!!ing about burn is ridiculous. It isn't that bad and the arguments have been cyclical about it. I mean complaining about the kineticists burn is like complaining that barbarians rage. Building a barbarian with a 20 Chr and wanting to do diplomacy is never going to work well, can you do it still, sure. Building a kineticist that never takes burn is doable but super inefficient. Saying you want a kineticist that doesn't use burn is like saying you want a barbarian that doesn't rage. I mean i get that you might not like a class but complaining that a square isn't a circle is absurd.
I want to build a kineticist that doesn't take nonlethal damage to work. That's why I've said Psychokinetcist is more palatable as the burn is different and doesn't neuter the class while doing so like the overwhelming soul did.
On barbarian rage, I can play a fine character that never rages and all I lose the that feature. I don't burn, I lose OTHER features. So it's not the same situation. Burn isn't a buff but requirement that my health is a resource: I don't like that. I'm not asking YOU to feel the same but I don't know why you think that my feeling that way is "absurd". There has been more "b$!!!ing" about me not liking burn than ME saying anything about it. I'm not expecting to get anyone to hate burn that currently likes it so why are so many invested in trying to get me to love it?
What is the reasoning behind "not wanting to take nonlethal damage" when your HP minus the nonlethal damage you need to top off your elemental overflow is more HP than anybody else in the party has?
Is this just a psychological or aesthetic thing? Taking 126 points of nonlethal damage during breakfast isn't that big a deal if after breakfast you need to take 300 damage before you fall unconscious (and then you'd need to take another 159 damage before death.)
What is the reasoning behind "not wanting to take nonlethal damage" when your HP minus the nonlethal damage you need to top off your elemental overflow is more HP than anybody else in the party has?
It's less hp's that I SHOULD have. I don't care if it's higher or lower than anyone else in the party. My taking 1 nonlethal hp is too many to take: Just give me less hp if that's how the class is build but don't give something to me just to then take it away.
Is this just a psychological or aesthetic thing?
Yes. I don't like it. At all. Not a tiny bit. Not even a little. The only thing worse that burn is a kender with burn...
Taking 126 points of nonlethal damage during breakfast isn't that big a deal if after breakfast you need to take 300 damage before you fall unconscious (and then you'd need to take another 159 damage before death.)
It's the fact that I've lost 126 hp to power myself. I don't find passing out before I should a bonus.
Additionally, if the plan is to take enough burn in defense to max overflow then just build maxed overflow/defense into the class and reduce class hp if that's the plan. The gain just to lose before I even start seems... backwards to me. Just cut out the middle man. People have said 'most of the time you don't spend any burn after you start the day' and if that's true then why go though that extra step when you could just get the benefits already worked in without the extra work?
I mean, I guess I come at this from a completely different perspective. The reason the Kineticist appeals to me so much is that you can be obnoxiously tanky. Pulling up my character from at the end of RotRL for reference.
What I get for spending that 126 temp HP after breakfast:
+6 Con (so 54 HP), +4 Dex, +2 Str, +6 to hit, +12 to damage, +54 temp HP that regenerates at 4/minute, and +1 DR (to get me to DR 10/Adamantine).
So Ultimately I'm down 18 HP and in exchange I get: +8 on rolls to hit, +2 to Reflex Saves, +3 to Fort Saves, +15 to damage (only +3 for kinetic whip), +2 to AC, 1 more DR, and now 54 of my HP are better than normal HP (they regenerate, and block things like poison).
I feel like that's a trade any class would take. Of the last 4 characters I've played (Swashbuckler, Inquisitor, Occultist, Kineticist) the Kineticist was the character that felt by far the most invincible despite constantly being down double or triple digits of nonlethal damage.
Not in an attempt to change your view, but rather to give an answer to your last question.
My fiancee maxes her burn out because she's in the back, flying around, out of danger. She wants her to hit and damage to be as good as it gets, and doesn't like her stats changing mid day (not a numbers person).
I, however don't want to just "top off overflow" in morning. As a Hydrokineticist who uses my shroud for the shield bonus, can only invest in my defense one point of burn before I "max" out the thing. That's two away from overflow. I suppose I could just "slick" a couple of times and be done with it, but I don't mind number crunching. I have the choice of starting the day with one burn (get the best of my defense as possible) and slowly get more powerful throughout the day as I slowly allow myself to accept burn. In fact, I kind of like the style of it. Where as the rest of the party is getting thin on spells, performance, rage, and even hp, I was powering up through my healing and even deadlier blasts. I'm practically a super saiyan.
So, I understand that the idea of having to reduce the conciousness gap to get to use all your class features feels wrong, but it's just another character option. I'm not a fan of every class or their features myself, but I am a fan of more options in general. I like choice, and I feel this class gives me lots of choices on how I want to handle my abilities.
Note: our characters are only level 6 at the moment.
PossibleCabbage: I don't see it as a trade: It's paying for class features with your hp and it's something I would never do on any class.
In addition, you're looking at the class at it's best with the element that offsets hp and a maxed out overflow. I play MUCH more time in the 1-10 level range and VERY rarely see the 16+ range. As such, the size bonuses are much less of a pro for the class in my eyes. It's not bad mind you, but it feels like a consolation prize for losing your hp. A 5th level void user is much less impressive than a 20th aether user.
Link2000: Thank you for the replies. I appreciate your understanding my point of view and offering thoughtful replies to my posts. ;)
I've seen a few people say they do it like you, slowly taking burn through the day, but it's been in the minority from the posts I've seen. Honestly, I'm more comfortable in figuring it all out at the start of the day than recalculating things as I go.
I also agree with you about options and choices. That's why I'm pleased that they've finally come out with an archetype that has a burn that isn't hp based. I just wish it JUST altered the burn feature so it could be taken with the maximum amount of archetypes: That way people that like both types are happy.
The funny thing is, I only posted here to reply to a 2 year old post that wondered if 'I don't like burn' would become less prominent and I wanted to say that it didn't seem so to me: I dislike it as much as I did and I it pretty much that way for others that I know that did. From what I've seen, people that didn't like burn have mostly moved to 3rd party products like Kineticists of Porphyra or Legendary Kineticists that give different alternatives to the Paizo burn mechanic. I'd play the class much more often if I could get those 3rd party products into the games I can get into.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yea guys, lighten off. If he doesn't like it then he doesn't like it. Not every class is for everybody. I don't like prepared casters because I feel like I'll always prep the wrong spells or the wrong number of certain spells. Some people hate the limitations of spontaneous casters. Some people don't like nature themed classes (ranger, druid, etc). A lot of people tend to dislike the gunslinger.
Everyone has their own way of thinking, who am I to judge?
I'm glad you gave the class a chance (or two), and hopefully one day Paizo will release something for it that will suit your playstyle!