The trouble with adjudicating charm and illusion spells; and how Ultimate Intrigue solves all of that

[Ravingdork]

As it turns out, the SPELLS OF INTRIGUE section of the newly released Ultimate Intrigue book, is probably the most valuable section in the whole book! It finally lays to rest how to adjudicate a great many complex and vague spells, such as charm person, or a large variety of illusion and divination spells. Any GM considering banning spells from his game NEEDS to read this section first.

I'll post direct quotes from the book once I know it's safe to do so. In the meantime, consider picking up a copy for yourself! :D

[Mark Seifter]

Ravingdork wrote:

As it turns out, the SPELLS OF INTRIGUE section of the book, Ultimate Intrigue, is probably the most valuable section in the book, as it finally lays to rest how to adjudicate a great many spells, such as charm person and the illusion school.

I'll post quotes from the book once I know it's safe to do so. In the meantime, consider picking up a copy! :D

Thanks RD! This was an important section to me as well. And also thanks for holding off on quotes; the 30th is the street date, so any time starting then is a good time for quotes.

[miscdebris]

Quick question.

Is there any sort of thing that makes illusion spells harder to detect with spellcraft.

"That one is casting an illusion spell! Anything that shows up isn't real!"

[Mark Seifter]

miscdebris wrote:

Quick question.

Is there any sort of thing that makes illusion spells harder to detect with spellcraft.

"That one is casting an illusion spell! Anything that shows up isn't real!"

Ruses might be your friend here. Find out more about them tomorrow ;)

[Mark Seifter]

Mark Seifter wrote:

miscdebris wrote:

Quick question.

Is there any sort of thing that makes illusion spells harder to detect with spellcraft.

"That one is casting an illusion spell! Anything that shows up isn't real!"

Ruses might be your friend here. Find out more about them tomorrow ;)

And here it is!

[Stereofm]

Ah, some good news. I am interested in this one.

[magispitt]

Be dotting this thread like Cruella De Vil

[Dekalinder]

The only real question is why rules on how to adjudicate CRB stuff are in a tecnically optional rulebook.
Things that affects basic game rules like this should be published as addendum to the base CRB, not as additional purchases. If I go in a Pathfinder game, the CRB is the only thing I should ever need to play the basic game by the same rules everybody else at the table abides.

[Milo v3]

Dekalinder wrote:

The only real question is why rules on how to adjudicate CRB stuff are in a tecnically optional rulebook.

Things that affects basic game rules like this should be published as addendum to the base CRB, not as additional purchases. If I go in a Pathfinder game, the CRB is the only thing I should ever need to play the basic game by the same rules everybody else at the table abides.

As far as I can tell, it's clarification. Not errata. You don't need these sections, it just helps. Also, adding these things to the CRB would require a overhaul of the CRB since you'd need to change the positions of things in the book and the fact if you do those, then other changes to the CRB are going to be expected to. Which is.... a lot of work when the worst case scenario is, "If you have a player who is abusing one of the spells talked about in Ultimate intrigue, you can look at the PRD and see what it says about it in twelve seconds".

[BretI]

Guess my sorcerer's bloodline arcana (Rakshasa) just became obsolete.

Blog wrote:

One of the cool new things for spells is the ruse descriptor, which allows you to cast a spell that seems to be another spell unless the person identifying it succeeds by 10 or more.

Ultimate Magic wrote:

Bloodline Arcana: Add half your sorcerer level to the Spellcraft DC for others to identify spells you cast. If their checks fail by 5 or more, they mistakenly believe you are casting an entirely different spell (selected by you when you begin casting).

Unless they are cumulative, it sounds like the ruses are much better than the arcana is.

[Deadmanwalking]

BretI wrote:

Guess my sorcerer's bloodline arcana (Rakshasa) just became obsolete.

Blog wrote:

One of the cool new things for spells is the ruse descriptor, which allows you to cast a spell that seems to be another spell unless the person identifying it succeeds by 10 or more.

Ultimate Magic wrote:

Bloodline Arcana: Add half your sorcerer level to the Spellcraft DC for others to identify spells you cast. If their checks fail by 5 or more, they mistakenly believe you are casting an entirely different spell (selected by you when you begin casting).

Unless they are cumulative, it sounds like the ruses are much better than the arcana is.

Well, Ruse is a specific spell descriptor. The Bloodline Arcana applies to any spell you cast, including those that lack said descriptor.

So ruse may be better, but the arcana applies to everything you cast, which ruse does not.

[Milo v3]

The rakshasa bloodline arcana applies to all spells, ruse is a descriptor.

[BretI]

So you are saying some spells have a new descriptor [Ruse] that pulls this trick?

[Milo v3]

BretI wrote:

So you are saying some spells have a new descriptor [Ruse] that pulls this trick?

Yes, the Ruse thing is a spell descriptor. It's not a thing for all spells just some new ones, though you can use metamagic to get it on other spells.

[Luthorne]

BretI wrote:

So you are saying some spells have a new descriptor [Ruse] that pulls this trick?

Yes. The spells controlled fireball, false resurrection, greater false resurrection, hollow heroism, greater hollow heroism, poisonous balm, and treacherous teleport are the new spells with the [ruse] descriptor; however, there is a new +1 metamagic feat which allows you to give any spell the [ruse] descriptor, picking a different spell of the same level or one higher for it to masquerade as.

[Eric Hinkle]

Luthorne wrote:

BretI wrote:

So you are saying some spells have a new descriptor [Ruse] that pulls this trick?

Yes. The spells controlled fireball, false resurrection, greater false resurrection, hollow heroism, greater hollow heroism, poisonous balm, and treacherous teleport are the new spells with the [ruse] descriptor; however, there is a new +1 metamagic feat which allows you to give any spell the [ruse] descriptor, picking a different spell of the same level or one higher for it to masquerade as.

May we get a brief description of what these spells do? They don't sound very encouraging.

[Chess Pwn]

False resurrection causes you to raise the body but instead of the person's soul you put in a demon/devil soul

Hollow heroism works like a normal heroism but at anytime you can cause it to instead give -4 to the things it normally gives +2 to.

Treacherous teleport works like teleport except the caster can go someplace and send everyone else somewhere else. So if you convinced the BBEG to let you teleport him you could send him right into prison.

From a players perspective, probably not going to use these much unless you're playing a game where you infiltrate an enemy group and can cause mayhem with these spells.

[Luthorne]

Eric Hinkle wrote:

Luthorne wrote:

BretI wrote:

So you are saying some spells have a new descriptor [Ruse] that pulls this trick?

Yes. The spells controlled fireball, false resurrection, greater false resurrection, hollow heroism, greater hollow heroism, poisonous balm, and treacherous teleport are the new spells with the [ruse] descriptor; however, there is a new +1 metamagic feat which allows you to give any spell the [ruse] descriptor, picking a different spell of the same level or one higher for it to masquerade as.

May we get a brief description of what these spells do? They don't sound very encouraging.

Spoiler:

Controlled fireball acts as fireball, except that the bead of fire can originate from from anywhere within range you can see, and you can select a number of squares equal to your spellcasting modifier to be struck by weaker flames that do minimum damage. It can be incorrectly identified as fireball.

False resurrection acts as resurrection, but instead of bringing back the target's soul to inhabit its revivified body, an advanced shadow demon is summoned to possess it for a number of days. It can be incorrectly identified as resurrection.

Greater false resurrection acts as false resurrection, save that it is permanent and is possessed by a young belier devil instead. It can be incorrectly identified as true resurrection.

Hollow heroism acts like heroism, except that the caster can choose to issue a special command if within medium range that turns its bonuses into penalties without any save if you already accepted what you thought was a heroism spell for the duration of the spell. It can be incorrectly identified as heroism.

Greater hollow heroism acts like greater heroism except...yeah, see above, except the immunity to fear becomes a -8 penalty (replaces rather than stacks with the -4) until the spell ends. It can be incorrectly identified as greater heroism.

Poisonous balm acts like cure serious wounds except that it leaves the body laced with a poison that remains inert until you activate it. If someone wants to resist the initial casting, they're healed for half and the poison is negated, though obviously the goal is to make them not realize they should be trying to resist. It ends if you don't trigger it within an hour. Detect poison has to beat a caster level check to detect the poison you leave. It can be incorrectly identified as cure serious wounds.

Finally, treacherous teleport acts like teleport save that the caster can choose to cause any number of creatures traveling with you to either suffer a mishap, arrive in a different location you visualize at the same time you visualize your own desired location, or both. It can be incorrectly identified as teleport.

Ninja-ed.

[Starbuck_II]

Poisonous balm sounds like a delayed (choose when layer to get it after being cast upon you)healing effect (if you can make save) so it has a cool effect.
I can't think of any delayed healing spells yet.

Cast it before battle on the party barb/fighter/etc and they can heal as a free action on their turn (assuming they have good saves).

Nice little tactical useage.

[Graeme Lewis]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Poisonous balm sounds like a delayed (choose when layer to get it after being cast upon you)healing effect (if you can make save) so it has a cool effect.

I can't think of any delayed healing spells yet.

Cast it before battle on the party barb/fighter/etc and they can heal as a free action on their turn (assuming they have good saves).

Nice little tactical useage.

I think you have it backwards. My reading of that description is that it's an immediate heal, but at any time within the next hour the caster can go "Nope!" and set off a lingering poison in your system.

[Mark Seifter]

Graeme Lewis wrote:

Starbuck_II wrote:

Poisonous balm sounds like a delayed (choose when layer to get it after being cast upon you)healing effect (if you can make save) so it has a cool effect.

I can't think of any delayed healing spells yet.

Cast it before battle on the party barb/fighter/etc and they can heal as a free action on their turn (assuming they have good saves).

Nice little tactical useage.

I think you have it backwards. My reading of that description is that it's an immediate heal, but at any time within the next hour the caster can go "Nope!" and set off a lingering poison in your system.

That's right.

[QuidEst]

Ruse metamagic spells don't do much for illusions, sadly- you can only pretend that it is a different, very similar illusion (unless you have the Rakshasa bloodline).

[Snowblind]

QuidEst wrote:

Ruse metamagic spells don't do much for illusions, sadly- you can only pretend that it is a different, very similar illusion (unless you have the Rakshasa bloodline).

Do you have to pick another spell of the same school? Seriously? Blech, that limits it's usability.

[Imbicatus]

Controlled Fireball has all sorts of applications if you want to assassinate someone while appearing to be one of the intended targets, or frame a rival mage for attempted murder.

[Snowblind]

Imbicatus wrote:

Controlled Fireball has all sorts of applications if you want to assassinate someone while appearing to be one of the intended targets, or frame a rival mage for attempted murder.

If I understand correctly how ruses work, that isn't going to be a very effective tactic most of the time. The actual caster still waves their hands and casts a (not) fireball, and the rival mage does not. It's going to be very apparent that there is some sort of deception going on unless you pull it off *just* right.

[Mark Seifter]

Imbicatus's gambit works with two conspirators, let's say the PC fighter and the wizard. The fighter meets with some NPCs in a social setting, and the wizard comes in disguised as a rival wizard, declares eternal hatred for the PCs and the nobles, and blasts with controlled fireballs. You kill your real target, and it just looks like the fighter was lucky at Reflex.

[Xethik]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Imbicatus's gambit works with two conspirators, let's say the PC fighter and the wizard. The fighter meets with some NPCs in a social setting, and the wizard comes in disguised as a rival wizard, declares eternal hatred for the PCs and the nobles, and blasts with controlled fireballs. You kill your real target, and it just looks like the fighter was lucky at Reflex.

In this case, the bead originating elsewhere has no real purpose? Is that meant for another scenario?

[Chess Pwn]

Xethik wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Imbicatus's gambit works with two conspirators, let's say the PC fighter and the wizard. The fighter meets with some NPCs in a social setting, and the wizard comes in disguised as a rival wizard, declares eternal hatred for the PCs and the nobles, and blasts with controlled fireballs. You kill your real target, and it just looks like the fighter was lucky at Reflex.

In this case, the bead originating elsewhere has no real purpose? Is that meant for another scenario?

Maybe it combos with an illusion? Have the illusion cast and then have the fireball come from them.

[Mark Seifter]

Xethik wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Imbicatus's gambit works with two conspirators, let's say the PC fighter and the wizard. The fighter meets with some NPCs in a social setting, and the wizard comes in disguised as a rival wizard, declares eternal hatred for the PCs and the nobles, and blasts with controlled fireballs. You kill your real target, and it just looks like the fighter was lucky at Reflex.

In this case, the bead originating elsewhere has no real purpose? Is that meant for another scenario?

Aye, that is for combining with Conceal Spell to do the whole trick by yourself and blast yourself, or if your caster is hidden far away (fireball has a really long range) but you want it to look like it comes from elsewhere (either they'll think an invisible caster or you could set up an illusion there, so they look in that other spot and find incriminating evidence there (but not your caster), and other such fun ideas!

EDIT: Chess Pwn had the illusion idea faster with ninja speed!

EDIT 2: And I ninjaed Snowblind on the other half of the equation! :D

[Snowblind]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Xethik wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Imbicatus's gambit works with two conspirators, let's say the PC fighter and the wizard. The fighter meets with some NPCs in a social setting, and the wizard comes in disguised as a rival wizard, declares eternal hatred for the PCs and the nobles, and blasts with controlled fireballs. You kill your real target, and it just looks like the fighter was lucky at Reflex.

In this case, the bead originating elsewhere has no real purpose? Is that meant for another scenario?

Maybe it combos with an illusion? Have the illusion cast and then have the fireball come from them.

Or sit a quarter of a mile away and snipe them while concealing your actual location. That's probably the more reasonable scenario. Bringing in illusions adds too many potential points of failure.

EDIT: Ninjas. Ninjas everywhere.

[QuidEst]

Originating the bead from another point is handy for a few things. A practical combat one is getting around barriers, or simply starting the fireball at its destination to prevent blocking shenanigans. If you can conceal your casting, it'd be possible to frame somebody for the use of the spell, make it look like divine judgement from above, or simply remove the incriminating fact that the fireball is coming from you.

[Quandary]

BretI wrote:

Guess my sorcerer's bloodline arcana (Rakshasa) just became obsolete.

Unless they are cumulative, it sounds like the ruses are much better than the arcana is.

Unless the Rakshasa BL Ability is somehow making spells count as "not spells", I don't see how it WOULDN'T be "cumulative"/stack, thus hardly obsolete. In fact, it sets up a crazy scenario where there is THREE different results of a Spellcraft check (not counting not recognizing the Spellcasting at all): The Ruse (normal DC), The Rakshasa's Cover Spell (higher DC), and the actual real Spell (highest DC stacking both mods). Even if somebody does see the real thing, the fact that different people will be claiming that it's a different thing will cause total confusion... I mean, the Rakshasa obfuscation could even be for AN ENTIRELY UNRELATED "Ruse" spell, confusing the situation further. :-)

[Gisher]

Quandary wrote:

BretI wrote:

Guess my sorcerer's bloodline arcana (Rakshasa) just became obsolete.

Unless they are cumulative, it sounds like the ruses are much better than the arcana is.

Unless the Rakshasa BL Ability is somehow making spells count as "not spells", I don't see how it WOULDN'T be "cumulative"/stack, thus hardly obsolete. In fact, it sets up a crazy scenario where there is THREE different results of a Spellcraft check (not counting not recognizing the Spellcasting at all): The Ruse (normal DC), The Rakshasa's Cover Spell (higher DC), and the actual real Spell (highest DC stacking both mods). Even if somebody does see the real thing, the fact that different people will be claiming that it's a different thing will cause total confusion... I mean, the Rakshasa obfuscation could even be for AN ENTIRELY UNRELATED "Ruse" spell, confusing the situation further. :-)

I'm already confused by this. ;)

[Eric Hinkle]

Chess Pwn, Luthorne, thanks for the response to my question.

What level are those false resurrection spells? Because I have this idea of them being easier than the normal resurrection or raise dead spells. Leading people desperate to get their loved ones back to cut deals with the local evil cultists, who then use the spells to create a demonic/diabolic 'fifth column'.

Could work for evil cults that make human sacrifices too: offer up the hapless innocents, then restore them to life. The Dark Gods are satisfied and your daughters and sons are returned to you, fresh as a daisy. Of course there's the glowing red eyes and breath reeking of sulfur, but no one's perfect.

[Luthorne]

Eric Hinkle wrote:

Chess Pwn, Luthorne, thanks for the response to my question.

What level are those false resurrection spells? Because I have this idea of them being easier than the normal resurrection or raise dead spells. Leading people desperate to get their loved ones back to cut deals with the local evil cultists, who then use the spells to create a demonic/diabolic 'fifth column'.

Could work for evil cults that make human sacrifices too: offer up the hapless innocents, then restore them to life. The Dark Gods are satisfied and your daughters and sons are returned to you, fresh as a daisy. Of course there's the glowing red eyes and breath reeking of sulfur, but no one's perfect.

False resurrection is a 7th level spell for clerics, and an 8th level spell for shaman and witches. Greater false resurrection is a 9th level cleric spell.

Edit: There are a lot of spells in this book for messing around with people, though. I think deflect blame is one of the most hilarious, though greater illusion of treachery is pretty fun too (and you could hypothetically use them in conjunction with each other), while the curse pox of rumors is also pretty nasty. There's also a lot of spells that potentially allow for new methods of investigation, like greater detect magic, rumormonger, and trace teleport, and so on and so forth. And of course plenty that are just neat...

[QuidEst]

Quandary wrote:

Unless the Rakshasa BL Ability is somehow making spells count as "not spells", I don't see how it WOULDN'T be "cumulative"/stack, thus hardly obsolete. In fact, it sets up a crazy scenario where there is THREE different results of a Spellcraft check (not counting not recognizing the Spellcasting at all): The Ruse (normal DC), The Rakshasa's Cover Spell (higher DC), and the actual real Spell (highest DC stacking both mods). Even if somebody does see the real thing, the fact that different people will be claiming that it's a different thing will cause total confusion... I mean, the Rakshasa obfuscation could even be for AN ENTIRELY UNRELATED "Ruse" spell, confusing the situation further. :-)

Let's not forget Magical Flair, adding a further +2 DC and adding in the additional possibility of misidentifying as a random spell of the same level and school if they fail by two or less. Plus, there's no restriction against using Stylized Spell on a ruse spell, adding in another misidentify possibility.

[QuidEst]

Oh, just a note on False Resurrection for everybody who's interested:
False Resurrection is 1 day/level. When the spell's over (or if the occupant is banished), the actual owner of the body gets the option to return to it. It is a short term deception at best, although a greater rod of extend spell will help out there.
Greater False Resurrection is permanent, making it a lot more reliable.

[Starbuck_II]

Honestly, they should have made false resurrection 4th level: easier but more dangerous version (just need to wait out the demon and your friend is back).