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part of the problem looks also because he is playing fullcasters, one thing i didnt like about them is that it makes the game too easy for me, is like playing on easy mode, specially if you have broad system mastery like in bill's case
i usually "nerf myself" by playing classes i know are considered weak, this way i can optimize to my hearts content witouth outshining other party members, maybe that can work for bill
the problem seems to me that he isn't playing by the rules; summoning monsters of higher HD than the entire party combined and taking prestiege classes earlier than should be possible
Seriously, show the GM this thread, have him ask for the players character sheet and then post it here.
Do the other players even enjoy making characters? If not maybe Bill can make characters for the whole group. Then each week you pass the character 1 to the left. Everyone gets to play each character. All the players can see how to play each character competently and add their own quirks to the character - no one can complain that someone else's character is more powerful.
Hang on a second. There is a big difference between optimised minion masters and otherwise competent chsracters.
There are a lot of assumptions being made that only Bill is competent and the rest of the party are messing about. Nothing in the original post gives that impression.
Not everyone wants to play a super optimised character. Plenty of players feel uncomfortable with auto win abilities and redundancy after redundancy. Bill making characters for every other player is not a solution. It just encourages Bill and forces the game in a direction the other players in the group aren't taking themselves.
Ask Bill to show some judicious self restraint. Get the DM to set some expected AC/To hit/Spell DCS for the party and ask all characters to be writhing a certain range of that. As for special abilities like minion mastery - politely ask him not to take them as it is spoiling the rest of the groups fun. If he doesn't care about that..
Then kick him.
Put him on the slow track for XP.
A 4th level cleric only has access to 2nd level spells.
Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell.
Lesser Animate Dead does not allow variants which is what 'bloody' is.
So. Lets assume he had to buy scrolls to create his undead:
That's 375gp per cast.
Desecrate is 25 gp per cast
Dire lion = 8 HD
Ogre = 4 HD
Bunyip = 5 HD
Animate Dead has the following limits:
you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead
So as a 4th level cleric you could under desecrate create 16HD of undead with a single casting. Because making them bloody increases the HD there is no combination that allows more than one of these minions to be a single cast spell.
So we get
Total cost: 2,050 gp or 35% of character wealth spent on this activity.
The creatures are:
Unnamed Hero
Bloody dire lion skeleton (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 193, 250, 251)
NE Large undead
Hero Points 1
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 11 (+3 Dex, +2 natural, -1 size)
hp 56 (8d8+16); fast healing 4
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +6
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +4; DR 5/bludgeoning; Immune cold, undead traits
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +12 (1d8+7), 2 claws +12 (1d6+7), 2 claws +12 (1d6+7)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 25, Dex 17, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +14; CMD 27 (31 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Initiative
Skills Acrobatics +7 (+11 to jump), Stealth +3; Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics, +4 Stealth
SQ deathless
Other Gear 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Channel Resistance +4 +4 bonus to save vs. Channel Energy.
Damage Reduction (5/bludgeoning) You have Damage Reduction against all except Bludgeoning attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deathless (Su) Return to unlife 1 hour after being destroyed.
Fast Healing 4 (Ex) Heal damage every round unless you are killed.
Immunity to Cold You are immune to cold damage.
Run Run 5x your speed in light/medium armor or 4x speed in heavy armor and keep Dex when running.
Undead Traits Undead have many immunities.
So an AC 14 creature that has a bite or 2 claw attacks for minor damage. It does have decent speed but no pounce or anything that makes a real dire lion a threat.
Don't forget:
Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature's special attacks.Feats: A skeleton loses all feats possessed by the base creature and gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.
This means it's really just a big pile of hit points. It is large so it will take up a large part of any battlefield, however it's large (long) which still gives it just a 5 foot reach.
The bunyip is even worse as it has the same land speed as the base creature - 10 feet, and it's attacks are a bite (1d8+1) or claws (1d4+1) Note that in all cases if a bite is used the claws become secondary so that Lions attack would be Bite +12, 2 claws +7
The Ogre is nice - it has reach and 40 foot of movement - it has to have a weapon (1 attack) or use it's claws - but it's damage is nothing special. What has to happen here is the GM has to be very clear on what can and can't be done with these - they can follow simple commands, that's it.
Also - when the skeleton goes down to 0 hps - it is destroyed. You can't heal it for 1 hour. It reforms in an hour and starts to heal at which point you could heal it - but if it hits 0 it's done for an hour. If your GM allows the group to stand around for an hour without running into wandering monsters then that's part of the issue.
Also these can be killed forever with something as simple as a bless spell. Most clerics carry this spell or could - it's not a good deity only spell.
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I am currently a player in the campaign, but I was previously the GM.
...part of the issue is that the other players tend to not pay attention to tactics at all. Have you ever heard of a wizard who refused to use any of their 1st level spells? There's just such a large gap between Bill and the other players. Not necessarily a gap in experience, but more of a gap in effort.
Bill is in a no-win situation. He's shown up with a sweet bored-out Indian motorcycle, and your other players have a ten-speed, a mountain bike, and a Big Wheel.
It's fairer to everybody to say to Bill, "These other players are going to derp about building and playing. And they have that right. If I had four of you and one of them, that guy would be the odd man out. But in this set, you are. I don't know how to solve this problem, and keep everybody at the table."
Hang on a second. There is a big difference between optimised minion masters and otherwise competent chsracters.
There are a lot of assumptions being made that only Bill is competent and the rest of the party are messing about. Nothing in the original post gives that impression.
Additional posts beyond the first one included further information on the group. Why it's generally a good idea to actually read the thread before responding. To wit:
I am currently a player in the campaign, but I was previously the GM.
...part of the issue is that the other players tend to not pay attention to tactics at all. Have you ever heard of a wizard who refused to use any of their 1st level spells? There's just such a large gap between Bill and the other players. Not necessarily a gap in experience, but more of a gap in effort.
So an AC 14 creature that has a bite or 2 claw attacks for minor damage. It does have decent speed but no pounce or anything that makes a real dire lion a threat.
...Note that in all cases if a bite is used the claws become secondary so that Lions attack would be Bite +12, 2 claws +7
At 4th level, a *single* +12 attack for 1d8+7 damage is hardly minor damage. The Lion gets three of them, and none of them are secondary. In Pathfinder, Bites and Claws are primary attacks, unless treated as secondary natural attacks while using a manufactured weapon.
That, DR 5/bludgeoning, and 4 fast healing are *plenty* to make just one of these critters an unbalancing influence in the party. Doesn't look like you accounted for the desecrate bonus hp either.
So an AC 14 creature that has a bite or 2 claw attacks for minor damage. It does have decent speed but no pounce or anything that makes a real dire lion a threat.
...Note that in all cases if a bite is used the claws become secondary so that Lions attack would be Bite +12, 2 claws +7
At 4th level, a *single* +12 attack for 1d8+7 damage is hardly minor damage. The Lion gets three of them, and none of them are secondary. In Pathfinder, Bites and Claws are primary attacks, unless treated as secondary natural attacks while using a manufactured weapon.
That, DR 5/bludgeoning, and 4 fast healing are *plenty* to make just one of these critters an unbalancing influence in the party. Doesn't look like you accounted for the desecrate bonus hp either.
No I was just mothballing it to see how much damage that would do.
Unnamed Hero
Half-orc barbarian 4
Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Hero Points 1
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 8, touch 8, flat-footed 8 (-2 untyped penalty)
hp 61 (4d12+28)
Fort +10, Ref +1, Will +3; +2 trait bonus vs. fear
Defensive Abilities orc ferocity, trap sense +1, uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 earth breaker +9 (2d6+16/×3) or
. . bite +3 (1d4+5)
So a 4th level barb with nothing but a +1 weapon can do +9 (2d6+16/x3) and bite (with the animal rage features) for 1d4+5
Without power attack it's +11 (2d6+10/x3) and +5 (1d4+3)
At 4th level the difference between +9 and +12 could make a difference - but the barb can turn off power attack if that's the case - and frankly they'll enjoy the flank buddy so power attack hits - where the skeletal lion isn't going to gain much against CR appropriate enemies from flank. A +12 should hit almost always - the extra to hit from flank is kind of a non issue where with the barb they can turn on power attack and go to town.
In each case the most basic PC using a basic +1 weapon can out damage it pretty handy. 8-15 damage is quite a bit less than 18-28 damage.
Yeah my bad I forgot the natural attacks would still be primary even though the template added claws...
So The damage difference would be:
8-15 + 8-13 + 8-13 - so on average (with a full attack) 24 - 39 vs the barb doing 18-28 and the bite (being secondary) won't hit often enough to really count ...
Still the Lion doesn't get pounce and the enemies should never be staying next to it for full attacks.
All of this still doesn't explain where he got the corpses to do this with, or the opals - You aren't supposed to just say 'I'm making a dire lion' - you have to actually have one to use. I still say that in general animate dead is only as powerful as your GM allows....
No offense, but you çould probably deck out the creatures in mw studded leather and fast healing is only 1 point. You don't get fast healing 4.
Incorrect.
Fast Healing: A bloody skeleton has fast healing equal to 1 per 2 Hit Dice it possesses (minimum 1).
for an 8hd bloody skeleton it does in fact get fast healing 4.
I have kind of the same issue. the archer dishes out over 100 damage per turn while everyone else struggle to do over 30. so when I throw monsters that the archer can't kill in one turn they all say.
"man it's a good thing we have an archer we would all die if we had anything else."
I just kind of ignore comments like that the goal is fun, not challenge. sometimes challenge is fun but too much challenge is not that fun.
I threw a bunch of vampire spawn during an epic boss fight. the archer was greater invisible and while using the feats snap shot/improved snap shot and combat reflexes (they threaten squares within 10 feet with a bow). the archer continually destroyed the spawn with nothing but attacks of opportunity.
from the spawns' point of view anytime a spawn went around the corner to attack, they came back as mist in the same turn.
That right there was the funnest part of the battle the players could not stop laughing at the slaughter fest. and then the BBEG showed up.
Yeah, if your minions are all dying from attacks of opportunity, it's time for them to swarm! You have to supervise those idiots constantly.
For the main bad guy, maybe he found a cubic gate that had a side tuned to a chaotic good upper plane. If the big bad is human, the PCs friends are going to be better targets. The bad guy can prime the pump by having a zombie guard the open gate.
Well I am glad the matter got resolved...even if the ban list sounds both reasonable and unreasonable{No blaster caster?}, either way should the matter come up again I suggest finding a gaming table with people who take the same approach as you do to building characters. I am not saying you should cut ties with your friends just that at the moment your play styles are not easily compatible and if the matter cannot be resolved it's better to step away from the table and consider other options.
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The lioness doesn't have pounce, but the GM ruled that the lion still got the grapple check on her bite attack.
Pounce has nothing to do with free grapple checks, grab is the ability that grants free grapple checks. And your GM ruled it absolutely correct.
She has the Undead master feat that increase the amount of HD she can control in one casting, as well as the command undead feat. her traits are Signature spell (animate undead) and signature spell (same).
Hahahaha...alright than. I see you're the best kind of powergamer.
playing any kind of minion build, including leadership, undead...
Tools of the powergamer.
Told me to ditch several perfectly RAW characters in the name of balance, including my blaster caster, which is suboptimal, as I understand it.
The best powergamers are completely within RAW and are still a problem. In fact that is why they are a problem, because RAW supports them.
Sicaria Nightshade has been removed from the game (with me crying foul, since this is...I think this next one'll be the fifth character for me now. lemme just count em here. Ifrit sorcerer, Aasimar Cleric, pixie druid, and now Sicaria).
Note, none of these characters have been killed ingame. These are just the characters that have been removed by veto or Gm removal. If I count the characters that I have had vetoed on character reveal (such as my level 7 Large Tiefling) then the list continues further.
You've had 5+ characters removed by GM fiat and you didn't think there was a problem? There is a glaring issue here.
I fully admit that I pull some serious cheese, and that removing these characters have made the game smoother for the other players.
But at the same time I just can't help but feel like I'm being punished for being good at the game at this point, since it keeps happening.
This is a roleplaying game. Some people play it for the numbers, but in my experience the majority play it for the roleplaying. There is nothing wrong with being good with the numbers, but there is a problem when you are good with the numbers, abuse the mechanics, and outshine everybody else at the table and overshadow any roleplaying that they do, which is apparently the problem.
This is not a new scenario, I've heard this exact story dozens of times. The only solution that keeps the game intact is the powergamer taking it down a notch or twelve.
One problem that the OP has is the difference between me and some of the other members of the group. I like the caster classes (sorcerer, cleric, druid, cleric again), and I keep my options open. My characters are NEVER one or two trick ponies, and have just as many roll playing opportunities as combat options.
basically, I'm a tactically well versed player who rolls well above average and knows the game mechanics well enough to roll with the punches. I play optimized characters, but I also love roll playing.
I don't think I need to point out the irony of you saying "roll playing" multiple times.
It's not that I'm more experienced than the rest of the group. I just put a significant amount of time and investment into my characters. Hell, I'm writing a novel about my first character now! Beyond that, I write fantasy and sci-fi for fun, and am pretty good at finding the game 'winning' mechanics.
You know how to win D&D/Pathfinder/etc.? Make a character and do something that people talk about for years to come. If in five years you guys are sitting around and laugh about the hilarious stunts that your character pulled, then you have essentially "won" the game. You know what nobody really cares about or remembers? The fact that your mage could blow through every fight without breaking a sweat. You'll only make the other players feel bad, and you'll be forgotten by the end of the week.
Bill specifically stated that the skeletons were created in an area affected by Desecrate. So, unfortunately, it is very possible for him to have this many undead.
This makes me scratch my head. A player can't just say "Yeah that totally happened".
Who cast the spell? When? Why did they help him for free?
You're in control of all that. NPCs are your domain as the GM.
The answer to those questions, in general should by default be "Nobody, never, and they didn't".
This is in large part a problem of your own making.
Not that the other guy is any less to blame, since he apparently thinks this:
her traits are Signature spell (animate undead) and signature spell (same).
Is rules legal.
You cannot take the same Trait twice, because of this rule:
"When selecting traits, you may not select more than one from the same list of traits (the four basic traits each count as a separate list for this purpose)."
Signature Spell + Signature Spell = Regional Trait + Regional Trait. No. Bad. Not legal.
Not that this came into play in the first place since scrolls don't use your caster level, so this trait doesn't apply.
The lioness doesn't have pounce, but the GM ruled that the lion still got the grapple check on her bite attack.Pounce has nothing to do with free grapple checks, grab is the ability that grants free grapple checks. And your GM ruled it absolutely correct.
No, he didn't.
"Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature's special attacks."
Grab is a Special Attack, as per its text.
"If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack)...Format: grab; Location: individual attacks and special attacks. "
Basically, a whole lotta mistakin' goin' on.
Keep reading.
Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.
Grab is an extraordinary ability that improves melee attacks.
Special Qualities and Special Attacks are two different things. It may seem like hair splitting but they have their own separate places on a statblock (evident with creatures that have both).
Grab is a Special Attack, not a Special Quality.
If it were a creature that had an Extraordinary SQ that gave it a x3 crit rate on its bite, for example, it would keep that.
"Trait bonuses do not stack—they’re intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character’s traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage."
Special Qualities and Special Attacks are two different things. It may seem like hair splitting but they have their own separate places on a statblock (evident with creatures that have both).
Grab is a Special Attack, not a Special Quality.
If it were a creature that had an Extraordinary SQ that gave it a x3 crit rate on its bite, for example, it would keep that.
I agree, it seems like splitting hairs. I agree it's close enough that the rules aren't explicitly clear on that, so I suppose we will agree to disagree. Either way that's not the main issue of the thread here.
the solution is easy here folks...
A more powerful necromancer/cleric catches wind of this prodigy who is cranking out powerful minions despite their low level...
Powerful NPC shows up and simply TAKES them.
Easy.
Also, GM, if you don't like it, simply inform the player that things must change. Run your game the way you want it.
for the second time trait bonus' dont stack.
and Overclocked Spells are variant rules, did you even ask if you were allowed to use them? or did you just decide for yourself?
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Or the rest of the group could stop being a bunch of babies and be glad they get to bop around and have fun safely exploring deep tombs with a bunch of undead, or the roleplaying opportunity it creates.
I'm sorry, all I hear in this thread is "Dirty Powergaming! Ruining the Group's Fun! How dare you optimize!" Give me a break. This guy built a character, and he built it well, and all the group does is cry and whine because they don't get to be special snowflakes, which is preposterous, because anybody can learn to play well.
I don't like saying it, but man, QQ more, scrubs.
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I find it disturbing that the OP is not the GM of this game, yet comes to this forum asking questions his GM should be asking. I think Problem Player aka Wildfire Heart is in the right here. Make your character as you see fit. The other players have zero say in what should and should not be allowed. That is the domain of the GM alone.
That said, I think this group will continue to have problems for as long as they avoid starting at level one and building from the ground up. You have one player that out maximizes everyone else, while the rest have little to no idea how to play. Starting above level one will continue to exacerbate these issues.
Start over. Level one. Everyone is on the same playing field and build from there. This will give the slower players a chance to learn how to play their characters at a crawl before they start out not knowing how to run.
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I find it disturbing that the OP is not the GM of this game, yet comes to this forum asking questions his GM should be asking. I think Problem Player aka Wildfire Heart is in the right here. Make your character as you see fit. The other players have zero say in what should and should not be allowed. That is the domain of the GM alone.
That said, I think this group will continue to have problems for as long as they avoid starting at level one and building from the ground up. You have one player that out maximizes everyone else, while the rest have little to no idea how to play. Starting above level one will continue to exacerbate these issues.
Start over. Level one. Everyone is on the same playing field and build from there. This will give the slower players a chance to learn how to play their characters at a crawl before they start out not knowing how to run.
Yeah the claims about people who aren't the gm vetoing other players character MECHANICAL choices kind of rubbed me the wrong way too. That and the fact that the fight got dragged to an online forum kind of indicates that y'all probably shouldn't be playing ttrpgs together
Here's the real problem: where did he get the ogre and dire lion? Neither of those are in Emerald Spire.
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There is power gaming and there is finding rules that are RAW that shouldn't be allowed. As a GM, I would veto bloody skeletons.
These are all subjective and contingent on opinion.
The fact that this guy looks for these things that can break the game and then implements it instead of saying I could do that, but it would break the game, is the problem.
The problem is that there are two players who have wildly differing methods of having fun playing the game. Thats pretty much it.
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I think the proof is that this guy was forced to remake 5 of his characters. Maybe his playstyle works in your group, but it doesn't in his.
Really because what I see is the player in question going over his character with the GM, while pointing out that the OP (NOT the gm) is vetoing his characters. Not the GM, another player.
Now thats not to say the other player is wrong, but frankly one PLAYER in a game getting mad and making a thread does not make the high powerlevel player in the wrong, even if he does outperform the other players.
So, two players who probably shouldnt be playing TTRPG's together as they clearly have differing views of whats fun in game.
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If you read his last post, the GM forced him to remake this character, so he backed the OP.
I'm sorry, but that does not matter. The job of the GM is to ensure that everyone is having fun, not to deal with characters. If the rest of the group is whining about how ineffective their characters are, then they ought to be ELEVATED by the GM.
You don't tell the best student in class to stop getting such good grades because his classmates don't understand the material.
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If you read his last post, the GM forced him to remake this character, so he backed the OP.
Yeah its more plausible to me that he's doing it in an effort to keep the OP's complaining down given that it wasn't the GM coming to the forum looking for advice.
Or Channel Energy. All it takes is for it t be knocked into negative HP and then even 1 damage from Channel kills it forever.
But we've already established that those were illegally obtained in several different ways, so they should have never been there to begin with.
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You don't tell the best student in class to stop getting such good grades because his classmates don't understand the material.
That has to be one of the most aggressive value-judgements on play style since... well it's PFS, so probably since earlier this week. But still, yikes.
If I was completely slaughtering encounters in a way that annoyed even one other player, I'd keep raising the "how the ^#$^# would you make that concept work?!" character-building bar until the issue went away. It's fun to apply system mastery to horribly unoptimized concepts if you're with a group that gives you the freedom to do so. I can't think of much that would be less fun than smashing a group's adventuring dynamic with a dubious minion-steamroller.
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The thing to keep in mind that this is a cooperative game. If something a player does results in the other players having more fun, that player has done a positive thing. If something the player does results in the other players having less fun (than they would have if that player had not done the thing, say) they are stepping out of line and if this keeps happening the GM should probably have words. I mean nobody at the table has fun that is of more intrinsic value than anybody else's fun.
The thing about "power gamers" and their complement is that whichever faction is in the majority is going to decide the tenor of the game, and since "power gamers" are very much in the minority, learning to "get along" or "calm down" is pretty important. Speaking as someone who GMs more than they play, I'd really prefer not to have to write content for an entire team of inveterate min-maxers, since they're going to plow through it super-fast and they're an order of magnitude more difficult to challenge than "ordinary people" parties (and "the party wins easily all the time" gets old for the players sooner than later.)
So it's always worth considering whether or not you are contributing positively to a game, and if your play style requires other people to either bask in your awesomeness or suck it up and play at your level, you're probably not contributing positively to the game. I mean, "whether or not you kill the monsters and get the treasure" really has very little to do with what makes the game worth playing.
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You know pen and paper rpgs are probably one of the few activities where ignoring the mechanical aspect of the game is considered a play style. I am not saying that everyone should build min-maxed characters, I hate min-maxed characters, but I equally hate characters that don't pull their weight, and I apologize but if the horribly functioning character is that way because of the concept for the character, some concepts are just not that well supported in the game. Some may argue "But that is why you have a DM, who's job it is to make sure that everyone gets to shine even if they built a terrible character" and that is one of the most selfish and weakest arguments I have ever heard, so your entire party has to suffer till the GM goes out of their way to make your terribly built character look good?
By terribly built I don't mean not optimized, even not optimized characters can pull their weight as long their made with the idea of doing whatever their class's party role is supposed to do.
Of course in the situation presented by this thread most of the players are noobs and there is one player who has very good system mastery. I understand wanting to pull your punches here, but I also understand wanting to look for another table and finding people of equal understanding of the game that can roll with your character ideas no matter how powerful they are.
From my modest knowledge of the game I am guessing that the character our problem player made is very min-maxed, and its fine to tell him to tone it down for the sake of the people new to the game, better yet it would be better for him to teach the new players how to build better characters.
What irks me though is that most people are so eager to go after power gamers, min-maxers and what have you, but I have rarely seen anyone say "man you've been playing the game for all these years and your characters don't even preform their intended role in the party? Get good". As much as some people want to deny it or at least not look at it favorably, there is a mechanical aspect to this game. You can't say oh my character is an amazing swordsman but your character has a terrible strength and dexterity score. Your party should not suffer because your character is mechanically abysmal, it saps the fun out of the game just as much as the min-maxers character does.
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It's honestly probably because more people playing these sorts of games need to "get good" at reading social cues, working as a team, understanding the expectations of other people, and balancing personal glory with group goals getting met than they do at "combining mechanics in powerful ways." Like go to cons and see all the people who have no idea how to behave in public, but I'd be reasonably confident they have fairly optimized characters.
I mean, if you just want to be powerful and you don't care about anybody else having a good time, you should probably stop wasting everybody else's time and go play a video game where that sort of thing is more okay. If your fun requires other people to have less fun, you probably shouldn't be playing a game that's as social as a tabletop RPG.
After all, the response of a well-adjusted powergamer to a group that is much less skilled at building characters than they are is "helping other people build characters" not "complaining they aren't as good as you."
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The current GM and I have a very good rapport, and the group is a group of friends, for crying out loud
People can be good friends in general, but not necessarily compatible in everything they do.
Here is my question for you. Do you realize that regardless of anything else, they way you play is making the game less fun for at least some of the others?
It really doesn't matter why, or if you are 'right' or 'wrong.' Everyone having fun is the goal, and if that isn't happening, the game is being played wrong.
It is also obvious to me that the other players are sometimes making things less fun for you, having characters vetoed etc. That being said, you can really only control your own behavior.
I suspect if you put your obviously formidable problem solving skills to the task of building a character and playing in a manner that will enhance, rather detract from, everyone's fun in the game not only will the others have more fun, but you will as well.
That is how you win Pathfinder, not DPR.
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If the character in question has the Undead Master feat, he could easily command and control 17 HD of undead at his level.
Have your other players tried getting good and learning how to make competent characters?
Yeah, no kidding. I'm guessing the optimizer owns a copy of the Core Rulebook (and perhaps a few others) while the other players don't have anything?
Maybe the problem isn't the optimizer, but the lack of investiture of the other players. I've found that some peoples' level of interest in the game just isn't as high as others--and this invariably effects the power level of their characters.
EDIT: Looks like I'm a little late to the game.