Ok, we need strategy advice.
Wizard
Oracle of Life, will only heal and summon
Slayer
Ninja
We already TPKed.
Our combat usually are EPIC in the sense that we must waste all our resources in each combat.
We've been on Thistletop for at least 3 nights, once we went back to SP, another we slept there, last one TPK.
We had no resources, but there was 1 door left, we checked it and it was final boss.
Our GM was about to introduce dead Ninja's Sorcerer, but the player instead of helping CLOSED all the doors and LEFT, not coming to save the 3 (actually 2, the slayer was dead already, we didn't know).
How can we improve our sinergy? I was a controlling wizard with crafting feats, after wipe I went Conjuration Summon focus.
Our only frontlines are Slayer and Ninja, Oracle doesn't wield a weapon, thus our DM has ruled that he doesn't threaten any square.
So far Oracle has only been healing and summoning Eagles.
I've been using Glitterdust, Grease and Color Spray. We faced final boss in Ttop and we BARELY won because I greased Boss' weapon and Ninja took it away, otherwise it was another wipe, because Slayer was already on the floor dying.
The fight ended with boss using his channel and our Oracle using hers, it was lucky rolls mostly.
Slayer opened the door, for faced by Dog, I went 3 squares behind Slayer because I wanted to cast spell (needed line of sight). Ninja and Oracle were waiting outside 4 squares (it was a corridor). They thought Boss would chase us, I knew she wouldn't.
Our battle are mostly this. We are discussing around 30 min for plans and when the fight starts nothing goes ok.
It's kinda frustrating. If the Ninja doesn't flank, or the Oracle doesn't flank or buff, how can I help?.
I must be doing something wrong. If I have the chance I act first and try to use my most powerful spell like Glitterdust (in this fight the boss saved against glitter and grease, only the second one hit).
My plan for my wizard wasn't going to be a Summoner, but we're always dying, I feel I have to do it.
I need help on how help us survive, strategy and such.
I'm asking because we're at the point where we make more plans and fail, waste time doing them and it's getting frustrating/boring.
We got our Slayer caught in the boss trap (the double statues) and it was me, the wizard with 28 HP who had to activate the trap to save the Slayer that was trapped because the Oracle refused, because he was scared of dying. This happen all the time. We had ideas and usually the Oracle brings them down but doesn't help with new ones
Your problem appears to be the oracle.
A divine spell caster normally acts as a back up melee character/archer
A life oracle is an excellent healer but must contribute more than just healing and summoning.
Thistletop boss is a tough fight, but from what you say you struggle with many of the fights.
Your group needs to sit down and talk about what is working and what is not. No point playing if it isn't fun.
Have a talk with the Oracle, they need to start A) carry a weapon, and B) PARTICIPATE.
If they aren't willing to participate more, you might need to find someone that will. :-)
Have a talk with the Oracle, they need to start A) carry a weapon, and B) PARTICIPATE.
If they aren't willing to participate more, you might need to find someone that will. :-)
Oracle has achievement feat, if he heals 1000 HP with spells, all of his cure are max.
If he does dmg directly he lowers pool by 2 for each dmg done.He alwaya stays in the back and heals or summon.
He doesnt use weapon bcs he uses heavy shield, otherwise cant cast with weapon.
In not sure what we do wrong. What strategy should we follow to at least not waste everything?
We were full resources final boss and still 1 guy almost die.
The Oracle is the "problem". He plays in a strongly sub-optimal, i dare to say even bad way.
And not even equiping a weapon is really bad teamplay. So for example if a monster is trying to rip off the Oracle's face, the Ninja could at least get +2 to hit and use his most important sneak attack when trying to get the monster off him.
Or at least get some spiked Armor. You dont even need to be proficient with it. The -4 non-proficiency penalty doesnt influence that you are now threatening your adjacent spaces.
Or a cestus. I love the cestus.
You can always tell them to retrain the feat or you'll replace them with a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds. :-)
DM ruled he cant threaten with shield for a shield bash, if he does he loses AC.
Spiked armor will probably be the sale, but im gonna ask
I cant tell him how to Play. I tried telling him about shield of faith, but if he buffs, hes not healing with spella and not advancing his feats
We got bumped to 20 pt buy, it was 15. Our ninja has 17 dex cha, all rest 10, now hes like 16 con after res by npc
If spike armor Works, he can threaten.
Oracle wont change his playstyle, we need to work around that, what else can we do to survive?
In planning on taking energy resist communal for lvl 5.
Maybe do more dmg? Or Just summon for that?
The answer here might be roleplay. What stops your character from buying the oracle armor spikes or a cestus and giving them to the oracle.
"Hey buddy I love your heals, I get that you don't want to attack anybody but can you put these on so the bad guys think you are a threat. It will help our rogue friend keep you alive if the bad guys get close."
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That achievement feat is what's taking the oracle out of the fight.
Best to give it up and replace/retrain it. it's not even worth the payoff. An oracle of life will be able to life link the whole party and keep himself alive with channel and battle healing (I forget the exact name, but the revelation that let's you cast a quickened healing spell by using two slots).
1) ask your GM to take a look at the RotR forum; Thistletop is often a TPK, and there are several threads giving advice specific to the AP.
2) your party comprises:
1 wizard (squishy, very weak at low level, will become powerful after about L7);
1 Wand of Cure Miscellaneous Wounds (Oracle of Unhelpfulness - a cohort would be more use! Take a look at all the threads about how healing during combat is a waste of resources);
2 flankers who can deal damage if positioning goes well, but cannot take a beating in direct melee.
3)Spend some (of the Oracle's) money on hiring a minion or three. Equip them with decent armour. Let the Oracle heal them all the time. Otherwise carry on as you are.
Or, change the personnel: ditch the Oracle for an actual divine caster, and turn either/both of the Slayer/Ninjas into a Paladin (seriously, for this AP a Paladin is the best melee frontliner).
DM ruled he cant threaten with shield for a shield bash, if he does he loses AC.
Spiked armor will probably be the sale, but im gonna ask
I cant tell him how to Play. I tried telling him about shield of faith, but if he buffs, hes not healing with spella and not advancing his feats
We got bumped to 20 pt buy, it was 15. Our ninja has 17 dex cha, all rest 10, now hes like 16 con after res by npc
If spike armor Works, he can threaten.
Oracle wont change his playstyle, we need to work around that, what else can we do to survive?
In planning on taking energy resist communal for lvl 5.
Maybe do more dmg? Or Just summon for that?
WHAT?!
A Shield is just as much of a weapon as a Longsword or Battle Axe. Saying he can't threaten with it is bulls#@!. He isn't wrong in saying the PC would lose his Shield AC until his next turn if he took the Attack of Opportunity, but saying Shields can't threaten at all is a bunch of horse crap.
Hell, you don't even have to be able to make Attacks of Opportunity to threaten a square. All you have to do is be able to make melee attacks into that square, and boom, you threaten.
The answer here might be roleplay. What stops your character from buying the oracle armor spikes or a cestus and giving them to the oracle.
"Hey buddy I love your heals, I get that you don't want to attack anybody but can you put these on so the bad guys think you are a threat. It will help our rogue friend keep you alive if the bad guys get close."
10 str, he want a mithral breasplate bcs too much penalty, cant convince him it doesnt matter, its waste of gold.
He wants hold perdón, so thats gonna be cool at least
Its more of dm ruling if spikes work
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Why I hate Oracres as the healer. HP damage is nice, but there are multiple conditions to be healed along the way and Buffs and attack spells. Oracles can't handle all that in my book.
1. Kill the Oracle off, and find a cleric that will fight things.
2. If you can't part ways with the I only heal oracle, hold him down and force a spiked guantlet on his Healy fist so he can threaten for a few gold
3. Use tanglefoot bags on the boss/any fight.
Seriously though, a cleric with 16 strength and defense domain for shield spells, spamming guidance and a compliment of spells would help in a big way. 4 or 5 channels would be plenty when he's bringing +6 to hit for 1d8+4 and an AC of 21 or so to the flanks.
The answer here might be roleplay. What stops your character from buying the oracle armor spikes or a cestus and giving them to the oracle.
"Hey buddy I love your heals, I get that you don't want to attack anybody but can you put these on so the bad guys think you are a threat. It will help our rogue friend keep you alive if the bad guys get close."10 str, he want a mithral breasplate bcs too much penalty, cant convince him it doesnt matter, its waste of gold.
He wants hold perdón, so thats gonna be cool at least
Its more of dm ruling if spikes work
The cestus weighs one pound and costs five gold. Surely he can fit that into his weight allowance.
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As always, I place fault in the DM, not the players. If you are fighting or character-building "sub-optimally", the DM should talk to you to ensure that's your collective desire, and accommodate the world to make that challenging and interesting to you. In all honestly, you shouldn't even feel this tension in the first place.
If you are losing and feeling behind the eight-ball all the time, talk to the DM about it. It's about everyone having a good time above all.
I'd argue that if the Oracle wants to play that way, let them. They shouldn't be punished or forced to play any differently. The goal is to keep everyone coming back to the table, not alienating them or punishing them for their playing styles.
Example: I'm DM-ing two friends who are completely new to roleplaying. I'm putting their two characters through an adventure designed for four characters, their PCs are not even close to optimal, and their tactics are all over the place - but they're having an awesome time because I've adjusted everything for their PC power and play style. I've also changed the plot significantly as I come to understand what aspects of roleplaying they most enjoy (so it's becoming less about dungeon crawling and more character development with NPC's).
I understand that you're playing an AP, but like everything, they're meant as guidelines. Having DM'ed the first half of RotR, I can say there are plenty of opportunities for role-play etc to take the forefront and to still work through the plot.
TL;DR: The first problem is that you're asking for help here, when you should really be talking to your DM as a group. There is no way any of us can help outside the context of what your collective expectations, RP experience, and levels of enjoyment are. Everyone role-plays differently.
Honour the way you all want to RP, not the way we think you should.
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For what it's worth, I've also started DM'ing RotR for two PC's - a Ranger and a Rogue - and again expect to have a great time with adjustments that allow the small party to progress by using their own particular skills.
Putting the onus on the players to come to bat with the right party is far from my ideal situation because:
1) It limits creativity with PC design and party composition.
2) It takes attention from what a DM should be taking care of.
3) It can lead to assumptions that players are 'doing it wrong' and force them to restrict their imagination or (worse) leave the game entirely.
4) It limits the number of players you can RP a set module with. (The opposite side of the argument would be a post complaining that an AP was too easy because you have 8 players going through it. Again I would ask, "What the h*(*& is the DM doing, then?") :)
Just my opinion.
I assume both the slayer and the ninja go full offense. So the party lacks someone who can take a beating. The oracle already tries to address this with summons, but it looks like it isn't enough.
Paladin already was suggested. If the player in question doesn't like the class, a fighter with a shield or a barbarian focused on damage reduction can do well, too. In case everyone wants to stick with their classes, remember that there are combat modes like Fight Defensively and Total Defense.
Summoner should be helpful, yes. Evocation wizard can be fun, but not without tanks...
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How I love necromancers. Only wizards that get stronger as the battles go on.
Perhaps a witch might be better. Slumber does a ton of work in all books except 2. Unlimited hexes and later split hex you can be doing lots of work. You talk about resource management... This takes some burden off the area you mentioned.
Now some wizard answers.
Create pit. It stays around and can help control an area.
Command undead- this can grab you an extra body to do damage, take hits until it dies. Unlike summon monster 2...more mileage for your spells. Necromancy does it right...use this first half of book 2. I enjoy turning the DMs creatures against him.
Fog cloud- have an out. A way to retreat, regroup, and heal up. Create pit helps to cut off an area.
Arcane lock- I keep a scroll of this. Like above putting an obstacle in there way can by you a few more rounds to recoop or escape.
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Is the oracle using shield other? That spell can turn most classes into a tank. It's the thing to make channel healing actually useful.
If the oracle isn't ever attacking, the wizard should cast invisibility on him.
Slayer is our tank. He has 14 CON and Sword+Shield guy.
Ninja was 17/17 DEX CHA but after we TPK he went 14/16 CON, can't remember.
Oracle is fine as long as he doesn't have to do damage. His summons so far kinda saved our asses, but honestly at level 3 summoning 1 Eagle isn't that much. Problem with Oracle is if he can't actually cast spells without hindering the achievement of this feat.
No, he is not using Shield Other, or any other buffs. So far he has only cast CLW and SM1. Not bless, not PoE, nothing. He doesn't even own scrolls at all.
He's new at Casters and well, honestly, I don't wanna be an ass. I already told him he needs scrolls, I'm not gonna play this toon for him. I told him Hold Person sounds cool, but it's SoS, it either trivialize encounters or does nothing. Even more so for Spells Know for an Oracle, so at least he took SM2 I think. If he goes Hold Person, well, I'm assuming I'll have to buff the party or myself with Resist Energy or Prot from Evil Communal.
I even told him to get a wand of Shield of Faith, it works, always, and we save on Rings of Protection from a while. Not telling him how to play his toon except loose advices.
Slayer is doing pretty decently at surviving, but we lack damage. I wanted to play a crafter and go with Wands and Staff Like wand. Unoptimal choice, but really loved the idea.... now I switched. Went Summoning because we lack DPR, Meathshields and targets.
I know the oracle might be an issue because he can't flank, do damage directly, buff or whatever, but I need ways to work with that. At higher level I know things are gonna get worse, but luckily he'll heal more, have more wands or something and I'll be able to put up monsters to kill people.
Oracle is not casting Shield Other. He wanted to go Life Link. Everyone told him 5 damage/round sounds cool early game, but later kinda sucks.
So far he has
Safe Curing
Channel
Selective Channel
Extra Channel
Slayer I think went 2WF Improved Bash
Ninja 2WF too
Also Orace will probably Summon, so we should be Ok
How far away is your oracle from his goal of 1000 hp cured?
And he does realize that sometimes hitting something to save someone else's life is better, long term, than not saving, right?
You can't heal the dead.
Until 9th or 10th level.
Is there a (reach) weapon he can use that allows him to make combat maneuvers for his AoO? Can he grapple?
I'd actually say the life oracle may be better at higher level. His current issue is that he is apparently still just on 1st level spells. Next level he can pick up shield other and rock the channel.
Also, a good life oracle doesn't cast a ton of cures. It's more about distributing the damage with life link and shield other to maximize channel effectiveness. Most of the cure spells it does cast should be on itself. So that achievement feat isn't very good. Fey Foundling would serve him much better and of course selective channel is a must for any life oracle.
In my opinion, the priority for feats should be:
Fey Foundling
Selective Channel
Quick Channel
Reactive Healing
And for revelations:
Channel
Life Link
Your life oracle is definitely the problem component. If you're having troubles in Thistletop, it's only going to get worse from here on in.
I agree with everyone else here that's suggested that the Oracle needs to pick up a weapon, even if they rarely use it. And from a quest feat perspective, as a DM, you'd better believe I'd be tracking every point of damage that oracle's spells dealt and counting them against him. There's no grey area where "it doesn't count as me committing murder if I hired (or summoned) someone else to do it."
Either needs to drop the feat or suck up that he has to play against the (small amounts of) damage being contributed.
The Oracle can flank, use aid another in attack and defense, can use nonlethal combat maneuvers, unorthodox use of room details, thunderstones, tanglefoot bags, tangleshot arrows (deal no damage, touch attack to hit, entangle,) ghast retch flasks, stingchucks, nets, mancatchers, the list goes on and on.
This can either be handled in-game or out-of-game.
I have *NEVER* - as a player or a GM - bought into the, "I can't be helpful because my character wouldn't..." arguments, and I'm a "method actor" player type. Your burden as a player is to think why your character *would.*
If you're playing a character vehemently opposed to violence and concerned solely with the preservation of life, what on Golarion are you doing accompanying adventurers? You should be back in Sandpoint at the temple healing the sick and delivering babies.You certainly shouldn't be condoning violence and healing those who commit violence if you're that hardline opposed to it.
The Oracle needs to step it up.
As others have said, the main problem is your DM and the oracle player. The DM is flat out wrong saying that a shield does not qualify for a weapon in terms of threatening. A shield does do that. Your party to put it kindly is not set up well and the DM should be adjusting the AP accordingly to adjust.
The golden rule of this game is to have FUN and paizo absolutely gives the DM and players the latitude to change any rule or anything about their game to make it more fun. Dying constantly like you are describing is not fun and is almost certainly going to chase players away from playing at some point.
Your group needs a frontline tank. In combat healing in pathfinder is kinda pointless. Your slayer or ninja players should swap out for a paladin, fighter, heck even a warpriest to better take damage.
The oracle player needs to get rid of that feat about the healing. You can't have someone more worried about not dealing damage than letting the party die all around them. Is this a new player? Can he not swap out for a cleric that can still do status removal, channel and also help out with some damage?
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Much depends upon the builds. It does sound like the ninja was too squishy initially. (10 Con!? Ugh)
Slayer can be reasonably tanky - especially if they go the shield bash/TWF route. (This route is AMAZING for Slayers - especially once they hit level 6, but it's solid before then.)
Can you get the Life Oracle to cast debuffs? Generally they shouldn't be doing much damage anyway (Oracles are generally weaker combatants than clerics - especially if they go double-curse) but they should be doing buffs/debuffs. Summoning is good later - but it's weak for the first few levels when they only last for a few rounds.
How far away is your oracle from his goal of 1000 hp cured?
And he does realize that sometimes hitting something to save someone else's life is better, long term, than not saving, right?
You can't heal the dead.
Until 9th or 10th level.
Is there a (reach) weapon he can use that allows him to make combat maneuvers for his AoO? Can he grapple?
He has STR 10 DEX 12, any combat maneuver is out of the picture. He went 18 CHA, 14 CON, so probably Save or Suck or the like will be better. I think he's around 190 HP healed, not sure.
Thing is that he can achieve this feat using HIS spells, so buffing, or casting other spells kinda hinder is ability to do it. I already express my concern that a healbot is useless unless we have uber damage (hint, we don't). I'm trying to make him understand that a Shield of Faith is much better than a Summon or a CLW.I'd actually say the life oracle may be better at higher level. His current issue is that he is apparently still just on 1st level spells. Next level he can pick up shield other and rock the channel.
Also, a good life oracle doesn't cast a ton of cures. It's more about distributing the damage with life link and shield other to maximize channel effectiveness. Most of the cure spells it does cast should be on itself. So that achievement feat isn't very good. Fey Foundling would serve him much better and of course selective channel is a must for any life oracle. k
He wanted that achievement, don't think it will change it. Shield Other sounds good, I even told him about that, but it will delay his feat. Also, so far he hasn't cast a single buff. He's level 4 and has SM2. I'm not sure he's sold on the utility of Bless/Buffs/and the such yet
Lots of stuff
You might be right. So far DM rule that summons don't count against his feat, so he's using that and he's safe.
My concern is that he's worried about things that aren't essential to his role, like having a Mithral armor or getting a +2 to CHA. His role should be buffer, protector and Remove anything.Maybe, MAYBE if he can flank with Spikes he'll be more willing to be on the front lines, but so far I'm mostly on frontlines as well because, well, I can be seen as a threat. A guy hanging around with no weapon, a shield and only casting heals, well, not really scary.
I'll try to make a case for Aid Another for +2 AC, and check if you need a weapon for that.
STR 10 DEX 12 doesn't put him on really good initiative checks, or attacks bonuses.
Our Slayers does pretty good damage, but I'm not really sold on the TFW honestly, and I think he also has Power Attack.
Ninja was an issue before TPK, because he had 10 CON, now he should be more beefy.
As others have said, the main problem is your DM and the oracle player. The DM is flat out wrong saying that a shield does not qualify for a weapon in terms of threatening. A shield does do that. Your party to put it kindly is not set up well and the DM should be adjusting the AP accordingly to adjust.
The golden rule of this game is to have FUN and paizo absolutely gives the DM and players the latitude to change any rule or anything about their game to make it more fun. Dying constantly like you are describing is not fun and is almost certainly going to chase players away from playing at some point.
Your group needs a frontline tank. In combat healing in pathfinder is kinda pointless. Your slayer or ninja players should swap out for a paladin, fighter, heck even a warpriest to better take damage.
The oracle player needs to get rid of that feat about the healing. You can't have someone more worried about not dealing damage than letting the party die all around them. Is this a new player? Can he not swap out for a cleric that can still do status removal, channel and also help out with some damage?
It's a delicate issue. So far we think the issue if party strategy. The DM recently pointed out that Slayer and Ninja we're both like skillmonkeys, but Slayer stick to it.
I'd rather have a Barbarian with THW, or at least a Slayer with THW. I was usually providing Crowd Control with Color Spray, Grease, Glitterdust, the occasional scroll of Protect From evil when things got dire.There were some pretty bad decisions too, and really unlucky rolls. Maybe late game things will get better when Ninja and Slayer deal more damage and Oracle can keep the party up.
Will try the following things:
- Aid Another for +2 AC
- Spiked Armor so Oracle can flank and still cast spells with Safe Curing (doesn't provoke attack of opp) > Shield was ruled out as weapon and I'm not going to discuss it considering it's not my toon
- Will speak to Oracle about Shield Another
- Tanglefoot Bags for Oracle, he should be able to hit them if he targets non melee engaged people and no cover
Even if the Oracle wanted to grab a weapon, his damage is 1d4 with a dagger, that's the only weapon he carries. Maybe he has even 8 STR, can't honestly remember. Unless he goes Battle oriented Life Oracle, consider it as a Caster in Armor.
Much depends upon the builds. It does sound like the ninja was too squishy initially. (10 Con!? Ugh)
Slayer can be reasonably tanky - especially if they go the shield bash/TWF route. (This route is AMAZING for Slayers - especially once they hit level 6, but it's solid before then.)
Can you get the Life Oracle to cast debuffs? Generally they shouldn't be doing much damage anyway (Oracles are generally weaker combatants than clerics - especially if they go double-curse) but they should be doing buffs/debuffs. Summoning is good later - but it's weak for the first few levels when they only last for a few rounds.
The guy went 15/15 before racial for halfelf with 15 point buy. He was down 80% of the fights after 2 hits probably.
Slayer was doing decent damage when hitting, but honestly, his luck on rolls is non existent.
Oracle will probably get Hold Person. I'm trying to avoid SoS by explaining how they work, I'd rather have a -2 that always work.
Talk with the other players and together convince the oracle to retrain healer's touch. Seriously, that feat is an insult to all that's good and holy. It only works for cure spells and using those in combat is simply really really bad. Why does he even want to cast cure spells when he already has two channeling feats?
Even if healer's touch would give you the benefits right away it would be a bad feat.
Slayer I think went 2WF Improved Bash
Ninja 2WF too
Yeah, no wonder you aren't doing much damage. You need a large amount of bonus damage or lots of feats to make TWF good.
In my experience, usually the best method of damage mitigation (at least during combat) is through damage dealing -- i.e. dead enemies deal no damage. You already get the issues with the Oracle, and frankly, if that's how he wants to play, then he should be allowed to and its up to the rest of the table (not just party, but the entire table) to adjust accordingly. Personally, it sounds as though you are doing what you can with the wizard. The only other suggestions I can think of would be to cast buffs on your party. Things like Cat's Grace or Bull's Str then combined with some battlefield control might help quite a bit. Take a look at Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards as he has some really good suggestions in there (though I believe his guide is CRB only). Still, it will be enough to get you going in the right directions.
Additionally, you could talk to the Slayer and see if he is interested in respeccing for THW. That would not only make his Power Attack more potent, but would also open him up to buffs like Enlarge Person, etc. My experience with Summons is that, at least early on, they are better used as flankers than actual damage dealers as they just don't usually do enough. Later on of course they get better, but in the early going you might be better off sticking with buffs and battlefield control.
But yeah, if the Oracle is unwilling to change then the GM needs to brush up on his rules first (since he is flat out wrong about shields threatening) and also needs to learn to adjust. I have had a similar problem with a game I run under another system. There 40% of the party deals almost no damage during combat. The result is that even "normal difficulty" encounters chew through a bunch of resources because even though the party has great damage mitigation, it takes them a long time to kill the bad guys because they are only using the three glass cannons to do it. No control in the group and two of five characters rarely, if ever, attacking.
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I wonder if the Oracle player would consider switching character classes.
If they went with a Hedge Witch who had the healing patron, they would still get most of the important condition removal spells. They could spontaneously cast cures starting at level 3. They could still use Summon Monster spells.
The big advantage is that there are a lot of hexes they could use that would help the party but don't do HP damage such as Misfortune.
This would give them a way to continue pursuit of the story feat yet be able to help out in combat. Save the healing for after combat or emergency only.
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You could make a career of summoning earth elementals. Also, I've had a cleric that almost never actually attacked anyone(part of the character concept). I don't see the precise need that all divine casters must melee - summmoning and buffing is a valid playstyle choice too. Summoning stuff to give the ninja a flank. Ninjas have vanishing trick so they can reposition themselves for flanks too.
All the oracle needs to do is to summon and buff more, then just let the heals come when they do.
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Would your DM get pissy if you guys just beat the 9 Hells out of each other - well away from the dungeon of course - & simply had the oracle heal you back up? Or set up a gladiator pit. Or go practice your FLY skill - by jumping of the roof again & again & again.
You know, take damage in a controlled way where your not (likely) going to die.
Wash-rinse-repeat until the oracle hits that 1k pts healed mark.
Then hand him a weapon & get on with the adventure.
LoL
Oracle will stay Oracle, he's not changing.
We can't cheat it. Feats has to be through heals, not cheating taking free damage. Also, it would seem that even after 1000hp, doing damage will lower your total HP. I'm not sure.
I'll just buff and swarm battlefield with summons
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Maybe prepare rope trick and keep the oracle in there.
Also, the oracle's player can be in charge of filling drinks and looking up random rules whenever there's a fight.
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I lost 2 characters to thisletop, so it's a tough enough hall. The Oracle needs to buff, and bring miracles because at some point, he will be the only PC standing and the reactive vs proactive thing will come to a head.
Imagin this. 1 guy ran off, 1 guy is paralyzed and prone, 1 other is a -7 and prone, and the boss has maybe 15 hp left. Channeling is not always the answer.
Have your oracle buy lots of scrolls and other consumables. Hell, round 1 he can throw out a tanglefoot bag.
Or, write him off as the extra character, and swap a paladin for that ninja?
It's easy to come up with draconian ideas, but coming to a more fun deal where the group is more cohesive yet everyone has fun is the real trick.
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Maybe consider going Summoner with your PC, instead?
You get to make an eidolon, so make it a combat monster to support the Ninja and Slayer, something that can take a hit. Then when it goes away from damage, you can spam your SLA Summon Monsters that are always level appropriate and last 1 minute per level, and are only a Standard action to use.
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Oracle will stay Oracle, he's not changing.
Yeah, and I could imagine further failures just let him move deeper into his snail shell of inflexibility and apathy. Which is built from his fear to fail.
Is your GM willing to tone down the encounters? Once your oracle player got some sense of achievement, he will be more openminded to proposals.
An alternative would be to boost his summoning skills. Let him switch his feats to Augment Summoning, Evolved Summoned Monster and Superior Summoning. It makes the party more successful, makes him more confident and still allows the achievement feat.
It may be tempting to take his summoning role and make it better - do not do it. If he is restricted to a pure healer, he will never grow as a player.
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Oracle will stay Oracle, he's not changing.
Him being an Oracle isn't the problem. Him not wanting to do melee isn't the problem. Summoner Oracle, is definitly not the worst character you can play in Pathfinder. The problem is that him spending many of his spells on healing just for that disgrace of a feat, yet also spending all his feats and discoveries on a different methods of healing he apperently doesn't use because they don't advance said feat. Why does the player even want that crappy feat (that also means his character has to totally suck for multiple levels) to make cure spells slightly less crappy when he already spend two feats on a striktly superior method of healing?
Does/will the GM allow him to apply the effects of Healer's Touch to Channel Energy?What spells does the Oracle cast in a standard (for your group) encounter?
Also, once you fulfill the prerequisites of an archievement feat, you have that feat. You could totally do zero healing and only use your healing spells to damage undead once you get the feat.
Another possibility is to talk to the GM and ask him to make the enemies weaker. You have three weak characters in your party. If you guys don't want to change your nonoptimised characters for whatever reason, this campaign at normal difficuluty might not be the right thing for you(r party). It's not like you planned on printing "I beat RotRL on full difficulty and all I got was this t-shirt" on a shirt afterwards, do you? So in the name of fun, have the GM make it easier for you.
I agree that the feat is fairly worthless. Especially to a life oracle, who shouldn't be casting very many cure spells on others anyway.
A well built Oracle can be a very effective healer, damage dealer or maybe even a tank. There is no problem with the Oracle class.
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Maybe consider going Summoner with your PC, instead?
You get to make an eidolon, so make it a combat monster to support the Ninja and Slayer, something that can take a hit. Then when it goes away from damage, you can spam your SLA Summon Monsters that are always level appropriate and last 1 minute per level, and are only a Standard action to use.
Personally, this is both good and bad advice imho. Its good in that a Summoner is, strictly speaking, going to be a better summoner than a wizard who focuses on summoning. However, its also bad in that its only going to further marginalize the Oracle, and make him want to spend even more resources just on healing.
I think we can all agree that the Oracle is being far from optimized and quite frankly, is a large part of the problem. However, as the OP has stated, the Oracle's player is not going to change the character (or the feat even) from the sounds of it. I don't necessarily blame him per se, (after all, he (or she) is a player too and if this is what the player finds fun, then so be it.
Ultimately, it seems as though the entire table should probably sit down and talk about the game as a whole. I personally have not run or played in RotRL yet, but I do know that it has the reputation of being a bit more difficult in places than some of the other APs. You take this and add a fairly non-optimized party and throw in a GM that either doesn't have the firmest grasp of the rules or is simply implementing house rules that are making it even more difficult for the already non-optimal group. At the end of the day, the group (players and GM) have a responsibility to make sure that everyone is having fun. It may even be worth it to run a couple of sessions of a different game/module with different characters. Heck, the OP could run an Oracle (pick the same level as the group is currently) and then show the player of the Oracle how much more effective the character could be. But ultimately, unless everyone sees and understands the issues, the group is always going to struggle.
The oracle player is IMO the main reason this group is having this kind of problem. I never got an answer when I asked if he was a new player but if he is then someone should tell him he is literally building and playing his character to fail. In combat healing in pathfinder is next to worthless. That healing achievement feat is literally worthless. Refusing to take part in any combat or do anything other than heal is practically worthless.
I'm in disbelief the GM is letting this group wipe and not say something to the oracle player.
"Healing" is certainly not worthless. His oracle is just trying to use a very sub-optimal method of healing.
I didn't say healing was worthless. I said in combat healing in this game is next to worthless.
I'm a little confused as to why you guys keep going back to the same characters after you have TPK'ed. At least, that's what I think you're doing. It's possible I've misunderstood...but isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different result?
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...but isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different result?
It was Einstein's definition - not any dictionary's. But if they rebuild the characters to be superior, they aren't doing the same thing anymore anyway. (Plus there is randomness involved in RPGs which make any given roll not really the same thing anyway.)
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The feat's not worthless. The oracle using it is.
First, use some common sense here. 1000 damage healed? Your group s like level 3-4 right? So in a 4 man group you guys have a total of about 120hp at most?
This guy is not getting that feat filled anytime soon. He needs to be patient.
Second, channel energy is not a spell, and the feat itself specifies healing spells. So now we're using the feat wrong whenever we channel.
Third, that damage doesn't have to be healed in combat. Priority in combat is damage prevention not recovery. That he refuses to help in either a defensive or offensive capacity outside of slow weak summons is just being a douche.
I'll chalk up the ninja to just bad tactics. The oracle is just being an active hindrance.
My advice? Educate them.
There's mountains of material and content out there talking about decent strategy and tactics. Much of it in my profile.
Ultimately your groups issues are not the options they pick but the way they're working together and their selfish desires. Thistletop is just one of many choke points. My group excelled because we didn't play silly buggers with the goblins and met every npc we came across with overwhelming force. We sure as hell didn't lock each other up with horrible dog monsters nor fail to support one another when things went south.