I was wondering...is attacking a Hydra's body and ignoring the heads a much easier way to kill a hydra?
Personally, I think so. At least against the standard CR 4 hydra, damage should outpace its fast healing and a party may not be able to reliably chop off a head and cauterize the stump. A party that couldn't deal with the stumps effectively could make it harder to kill the hydra's body.
Now, for a party with someone who has built for Sunder or a higher level hydra, that goes out the window.
It depends on whether or not the Hydra is a challenge or not.
A level 10 character would not bother with tactics and just blow away a CR 4 hydra (47 hp) in one round, but if there is a group of level 2-3 adventurers then they might have real problems overcoming fast healing while they're taking the hydra's damage.
Chopping off heads will deal damage to the body, lower the hydra's Fast healing (not always), and lower the damage output of the hydra.
The easiest way I suppose would be to assemble 40 or 50 men from the local militia, arm them with longbows, and volley from hundreds of feet away.
In Pathfinder, the base hydra has 5 heads and 47 hp (+5hp per round, so a 5 round battle would be 72 hp. Your strategy depends on party makeup. If you track it to it's lair and attack while it's asleep, a high-strength martial can coup de grace. The fort save to survive would be (with a greatsword, power attack, and 18 strength) 10+4d6+18.
You could also send a two-weapon fighter into melee with it. Have another party member with a scroll of Haste ready. At 6th level with Haste, he'll have 5 attacks. With good rolls he can cut off every head in one round, unlikely as it is.
A hydra has a 10 foot reach, so an enlarged character with a reach weapon could stay 15 feet away and 5ft step back every round. The main challenge with a hydra is avoiding those attacks of opportunity. Improved sunder, 15ft reach, or again attacking from hundreds of feet away are the best ways to do it.
A head grows back in 1d4 rounds. A head can potentially grow back in 1 round, but on average 2.5 rounds. I personally would want to be reliably taking our 3 heads per round in order to go with the head strategy. Two martial characters with two attacks each would probably be able to do it reliably.
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From the look of the mechanics...yeah, it is possible to just ignore the mechanic entirely. Of course, what is the fun of that?
If I was being a quote unquote "Fun" GM, I would ask- even if you ignore the heads, will the heads ignore you?
I would have each head give a +1 AC bonus for the body. If you could hit the body's regular AC, but not the AC with the extra AC from the heads, then that means that the hydra blocked using one of its heads. That interrupts your attack (cancels full attack, can turn it into standard action attack if it interrupts first attack) and turns it into a sunder attempt on one of the heads (rolled at random). Between the regular attack's damage and the sunder damage, use the greater number on this sunder attempt.
This suggestion is because, if I can regrow arms in 6-24 seconds, and someone tries to stab my heart...I know what I would block with. And again- having a creature with such a famous mechanic, but making it suboptimal to even begin to mess with that mechanic... sad.
Of course, the easier answer would be the simply make the fast healing into regeneration that doesn't turn off until all the heads are gone. That could also force people to actually deal with the heads.
In D&D there was the Lernaean hydra that you couldn't kill without cutting off the heads, it had a higher cr. Don't know why pathfinder doesn't have it.
Pf hydra IS a version of the lernean. Standard 1e hydras had no heal or regen, but PF hydras do. The fact you can hack down the body and don't need to chop heads is just an alternate way to kill them.
One you could ONLY kill by chopping off heads, and which gained 2 heads for every one you chop, is a good use for a mythic hydra.
Personally, I think so. At least against the standard CR 4 hydra, damage should outpace its fast healing and a party may not be able to reliably chop off a head and cauterize the stump. A party that couldn't deal with the stumps effectively could make it harder to kill the hydra's body.
Now, for a party with someone who has built for Sunder or a higher level hydra, that goes out the window.
My party had to get around sundering off any heads because most characters didn't have Improved Sunder. So they decided to attack the main body instead, since that didn't regenerate.
Personally, I'm not a fan as this take the malice out of a hydra.
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I was wondering...is attacking a Hydra's body and ignoring the heads a much easier way to kill a hydra?
In general it tends to be significantly easier. While a hydra's fast healing is formidable, it's poor defenses make dealing truckloads of damage to it actually rather easy, even for parties that aren't that damage-focused. Meanwhile, it requires a lot of effort to cut off its heads (no less than 2 actions / head) and you have to have access to not only specific energy damage but repeated instances of energy damage.
Further, slicing off their heads actually makes them more of a threat as the hydra regrows twice as many heads from the stumps if you haven't dealt enough energy damage to the stump before the 1d4 round window occurs. A hydra's fast healing increases with its number of heads.
It's much easier to plow through their HP and generally safer with few exceptions.
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Well... This is the game where you can kill anything by repeatedly poking at its toes... So... yeah.
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In fact, during a Red Hand of Doom game I was running, the party's cleric basically solo'd a hydra that attacked the party. Using a bunch of skeletons with slings (1d3+2 slings). Just pelted the crap out of it with rocks until it fell down. It lasted only a couple of rounds.
I like what the folks at Giant in the Playground did for the hydra monster class. Basically, heads are automatically assumed to be chopped off as the hydra's HP goes down. This nicely models the "block with heads" logic suggested by lemeres. And is also not counter to how regular combat works.
So basically, a 5 headed hydra would grow a head for every 17% of it's hp it was missing.
A thing that does not make sense about the PF hydra. Why would every hydra not start its life by chopping off its heads one at a time?
Just a few days ago the party of 4 6th level PCs in my game, murdered an advanced pyrohydra with 6 heads (CR8), in just 2 rounds.
It's hard to make the hydra live up to the hype without doubling the HP in the body or something.
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I like what the folks at Giant in the Playground did for the hydra monster class. Basically, heads are automatically assumed to be chopped off as the hydra's HP goes down. This nicely models the "block with heads" logic suggested by lemeres. And is also not counter to how regular combat works.
So basically, a 5 headed hydra would grow a head for every 17% of it's hp it was missing.
A thing that does not make sense about the PF hydra. Why would every hydra not start its life by chopping off its heads one at a time?
Theory: It does.
Let me explain. When the hydra hatches, it bears only a single head. By instinct, it immediately sets to severing this head (it's possible the parent does this). It continues in this manner until it has roughly four to five heads, then stops. This is an instinct honed over centuries since its initial magical breeding—hydras gradually evolved the tendency.
Why does it stop? Well, the more heads you have, the more energy you need. It's a known fact of ecology that it is tough to be a predator. Being a superior predator ain't cheap, and energy is hard to come by. Some hydras might continue severing, but it's always a gamble.
Now, when an adventurer severs a head, it makes the fight harder for him or her. However, it also makes it tougher for the hydra long-term. It makes it more likely the hydra will starve during the winter, for instance.
This is also why the "infinite BBQ" technique pioneered by the first millionaire goblin probably wouldn't really work perfectly, though it might still be a smart investment—a stationary "infinite meat" monster is still cheaper to feed than a bunch of cows.
A couple years ago this came up. Here is my reply.
A couple years ago this came up. Here is my reply.
But you are just saying "raise the CR." That does not really fix the problem of severing heads not really being a thing you do. You even made it harder, so it is less likely PCs will do it...
In fact, during a Red Hand of Doom game I was running, the party's cleric basically solo'd a hydra that attacked the party. Using a bunch of skeletons with slings (1d3+2 slings). Just pelted the crap out of it with rocks until it fell down. It lasted only a couple of rounds.
That same hydra TPKed my party.
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A couple years ago this came up. Here is my reply.But you are just saying "raise the CR." That does not really fix the problem of severing heads not really being a thing you do. You even made it harder, so it is less likely PCs will do it...
I said a bit more than just raise the DR.
Actually, I made it hard to get to the body because now each head gets 2 AoOs - whoever goes first is likely to suffer several bites (not just one), each with venom (which has some pretty lethal stacking possibilities). Very dangerous.
I also made it harder to just shoot the body because the heads act like a Mirror Image spell. If it has 5 heads, you would roll a d6 and only hit the body on a 6, otherwise you hit a head (and damage it, possibly severing it - look out, it's growing two new ones).
I raised the CR because all the changes put together turn it into a certain TPK at its original CR. Might still be a risky fight at the new CR, especially for anyone trying to get close enough to melee the thing and risk all the poison.
In short, I was trying to turn it into something that a local village would fear. The version in the Bestiary just requires the local village to send a couple dozen archers (ask for help from a few neighboring villages to be safe). My version has them calling for Hercules because nobody else can survive the encounter. Well, OK, a team of well-prepared adventurers might manage it, if they're careful.
Honestly, your Hydra is still archer-bait unless you're going to claim it can be decapitated by piercing damage.
I like the pseudo mirror image idea. My 2cp is just apply that to melee and ranged.
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Honestly, your Hydra is still archer-bait unless you're going to claim it can be decapitated by piercing damage.
True, but that's true of EVERY land-based walking pile of HP that only has melee attacks and virtually no defense against ranged weapons. Doesn't matter if it's a hydra, a troll, a giant, a bulette, an ankheg, or whatever else you name; if the archers are numerous enough or distant enough, the monster must either run away or die.
That's why I also mentioned some fun options like spitting venom and a super-fast pounce, just to let it kill at range and/or close with archers.
It also wouldn't hurt to put the hydra in a cave where archers cannot stand off more than a hundred feet or so. Or in a swamp, submerged, where it can get the surprise and the HYDRA gets to choose the range, not the archers.
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I also made it harder to just shoot the body because the heads act like a Mirror Image spell. If it has 5 heads, you would roll a d6 and only hit the body on a 6, otherwise you hit a head (and damage it, possibly severing it - look out, it's growing two new ones).
I like this portion of your change, that is a much better way of handling it. What adjustment to the CR do you think that would be on it's own? +1? None?
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Nah, if you only do that, I wouldn't change the CR. As is, the hydra is pathetic. It deserves to be less pathetic. It deserves to be the kind of fight that it was in Greek mythology. I have no problem with beefing it up quite a bit and leaving the CR alone. Give it the head defense ability and add a few HP to each head to make them a little harder to destroy. Leave the CR alone; if it's a tough fight for a group who's APL matches the CR, then good, it's supposed to be.
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You can kill it by stabbing its body. Assuming you're a hexcrafter - slumber hex(DC 15 will save-at minimum level assuming 16 int). Slumber hex has a 55% chance of suceeding. Follow with the CDG(assuming 16 str, arcane pool enchant) will be 4d8+20. Minimum 24 dmg, it needs to make a DC 34 fort save to make it. Or roll a nat 20.
Yeah, I never understood hydras. There's no reason to cut off the heads.
Instead, I ruled that hydras can stretch their necks to gain a large reach and tend to use this to fight enemies around corners or from behind cover to protect their bodies.
What do you think about giving them an effective Hardness versus Sundering equal to their Natural Armor bonus? Makes chopping a head off not as easy as it would otherwise be.
This thread is basically discussing how it is pointless to sunder the individual heads... it's easier to just attack the body.
Your approach would simply add difficulty to an already difficult approach, ensuring that NO ONE would ever attempt to chop off the heads.
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Hydras have been wonky in pretty much every version of the game. This type of monster with its mythological underpinnings just isn't represented well mechanically.
I mean, BECMI and 1e hydras had 8 hp/head, the body was immune to damage, and only certain variants regrew heads. So you had to chop off heads to kill it. Of course, they could also move and attack you 5-12 times. Or breathe fire if they were a pyrohydra. Nothing like 12 3d6 breath weapons to wake you up.
I think it was 3.0 that added in an option to strike the body, but you had to do the entire creature's full hp in one hit or there was no effect. I think also in 3.0 the hydra could attack with all its heads as a single attack - some sort of "super pounce" where even an AoO was 5-12 attacks.
The current way of using sunder to strike at the heads is counterintuitive - your players won't think of it on their own because no other monster works that way. So basically the GM has to suggest it. Then if the attacker doesn't have Improved Sunder it provokes every time, against a monster already famous for number of attacks.
I kind of wish the current hydra had regeneration, negating by severing a head, instead of having fast healing. So you'd be able to beat it down with body damage, but it's coming back unless you sever heads and burn stumps. And instead of requiring deliberate sunder attempts, either just allow characters to choose to strike at heads or maybe even treat it as a racial version of mirror image, where instead of striking an image you hit a head.