"The World As A Box" - Making an Anti-Magic / Anti-Outsider / Anti-Undead Character for PFS


Advice

Grand Lodge

Hello World,

I'm thinking through a PFS character concept of someone who rejects influences outside the "natural order." The character does not necessarily deny the existence of gods, angels, magic, etc. Their aim, however, is repressing these influences. They favor picturing the world as a "box," a closed system.

I would like to make a character skilled at combating magic users, outsiders, and the undead. Here's what I have so far:

Anti-Magic:
- Superstitious chain or rage powers
- Step-Up feat chain
- Boost to saves from Divine Grace
- Boost to saves from Dwarven racial trait and Glory of Old?
- Arcane bloodline from blood rager

Anti-Outsider:
- Cold Iron
- Variant Channeling
- Smite Evil
- Favored Enemy

Anti-Undead:
- Smite Evil
- Channel Energy

I've had a particular difficult time coming up with ideas on combating outsiders.

Any ideas on how to combine these features or do I need to narrow my focus?

Thanks for any help you can provide!


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croftstr wrote:

Hello World,

I'm thinking through a PFS character concept of someone who rejects influences outside the "natural order." The character does not necessarily deny the existence of gods, angels, magic, etc. Their aim, however, is repressing these influences. They favor picturing the world as a "box," a closed system.

I would like to make a character skilled at combating magic users, outsiders, and the undead. Here's what I have so far:

Anti-Magic:
- Superstitious chain or rage powers
- Step-Up feat chain
- Boost to saves from Divine Grace
- Boost to saves from Dwarven racial trait and Glory of Old?
- Arcane bloodline from blood rager

Anti-Outsider:
- Cold Iron
- Variant Channeling
- Smite Evil
- Favored Enemy

Anti-Undead:
- Smite Evil
- Channel Energy

I've had a particular difficult time coming up with ideas on combating outsiders.

Any ideas on how to combine these features or do I need to narrow my focus?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

Hard to mix all of that up, if you try and multi-class that much, you are going to gimp all of the best of the mentioned abilities.

Superstitious (as in the rage power) Human Barb with the Human favored class bonus to the rage power, with Disruptive and Witch Hunter seems the most "classic" and effective. Crank the bonus to saves even higher with a Headband of Havoc. Shove Iron Will in there.

You *could* drop a level of Ranger to get a bonus against Evil Outsiders, but then you are ditching Greater Rage. Forget channeling unless you are focusing on it (unless you want it purely for RP reasons). Trying to dip Paladin for smite doesn't really stack up as it makes you MAD, needing to try to max what would normally be a Barb's dump stat.

The trouble is, since PFS only goes to 11, and a lot of classes get something really good at 11-ish, and Paizo went out of their way to not have many things worth dipping just one level for, multi classing is pretty hard to justify.

You could grab a Bane Baldric, but you can only use it 5 rounds a day... still...


A +1 Furious (Evil Outsider)/(Undead) Bane weapon is also good. As a Barb you can kind of afford it if you just ignore AC due to swimming it HP and having DR.


I'm not sure if unchained variant multiclassing is valid in PFS but if it is then go with the Primal Untouchable Blood rager arcane bloodline with VMC Paladin. You'll have smite evil at level 11, you'll have spell resistance, disruption, spell breaker, spell sunder, witch hunter, superstitious. You don't have to be lawful good but NG would be best as you need to follow a paladin code of conduct.

Grand Lodge

Are you okay withe being a magic user yourself?

A Spell Warrior Skald can get you Superstitious, Disruptive, or possibly World Serpent, Celestial Bloodline for outsiders, for your entire group. And you can give everyone Ghost Touch weapons.


I'd love to hear the reasoning behind trying to get rid of magic and outsider influence using an arcane spellcasting class (bloodrager) or a divine class (paladin), unless your allowed to refluff them as getting these powers some other way that you consider more "natural".

An alchemist can get continous damage effects with acid bombs and a few others, and bombs that deal damage and stagger against each of the non neutral alignment sides, and deal extra damage against undead. That's "natural effort" for a class, and options for hurting casters at range to force concentration checks, and dealing good damage to outsiders and undead.


A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god... and it's straight up off the table anyway since you state "The character does not necessarily deny the existence of gods, angels, magic, etc. Their aim, however, is repressing these influences.".

Guess that kind of puts Ranger/Inquisitor off the table too with the divine magic and all. You could maybe do something with the Ranger archetype that ditches magic.

I would suggest Anti-Pally, but don't think you're allowed to be Evil in PFS?


Oooohhh Shiroi... alchemist... good call... not a class I like mechanically, but love the science vs. magic angle :D


Wait, actually OP, if you want to be a caster, and you consider magic that comes from the "natural order" (rather than from an arcane source or an actual "god") to be acceptable, Druid is 100% in:

Druids worship personifications of elemental forces, natural powers, or nature itself. Typically this means devotion to a nature deity [not in your case], though druids are just as likely to revere vague spirits, animalistic demigods, or even specific awe-inspiring natural wonders.

What better way to point out to an outside that he better not come to the Prime Material and mess with the natual order than by ripping his face off as a wildshaped tiger, a companion tiger and a summoned tiger who all pounce that heck out of him :)

Grand Lodge

Wow, so much feed back in so little time! I'll try to go in order of posters:

@Laureth: I agree that multi-classing proves challenging for this idea, although Paladin/Barbarian be possible if I dump Int and opt for a marginal Wis. I considered going straight Paladin for effects against Outsiders and Undead, but they seemed limited against spellcasters. They will have good saves, but I would need to focus all of my feats against magic users. Are Paladins allowed to commit themselves to an idea instead of a deity in PFS? If so, the class could work. Perhaps someone committed to preserving the natural world?

I agree that Druids fit the concept very well. Do you have specific ways they would be effective against the three areas I mentioned (besides raining tigers upon their unfortunate heads)?

@voska66: Nice idea, but I don't think PFS allows variant multi-classing.

@Markov: I'm still thinking through if I'm outright against being a spellcaster. Some classes, like Druid, fit very well. Skald could fit the concept, but not as apparently. In any case, I like the archetype suggestion. Any ideas how they could work against Outsiders and Undead? I see you mention the Celestial Bloodline, but it looks like it mostly gives you resistances.

@Shiroi: I agree that Barbarian and Alchemists fit the "natural" bill more readily. I mention the Arcane Bloodline of Bloodrager because it seems designed against magic users. Perhaps the character resents having the trace of arcane influence? Maybe they even use their innate abilities begrudgingly against other casters? As I mentioned above, some Paladins are committed to ideas.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback!


Laureth wrote:
A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god...

Uh, no. Paladins are NOT required to believe in a deity - Clerics in Golarion are, but Paladins can get magic specifically through the general power of goodness. Admittedly, many of them do become religious - because they find deities that match their ideals and the support structure of a church makes their job easier - but it's not actually required. XD


Shiroi wrote:

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind trying to get rid of magic and outsider influence using an arcane spellcasting class (bloodrager) or a divine class (paladin), unless your allowed to refluff them as getting these powers some other way that you consider more "natural".

The untouchable bloodrager loses spellcasting for spell resistance.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind trying to get rid of magic and outsider influence using an arcane spellcasting class (bloodrager) or a divine class (paladin), unless your allowed to refluff them as getting these powers some other way that you consider more "natural".

The untouchable bloodrager loses spellcasting for spell resistance.

And there is at least one paladin archetype that loses spells.

I would consider a paladin of Erastil due to his nature theme.


Do not underestimate raining tigers on peoples' heads.

All I mean is whether you want to be thematically good against casters/outsiders/undead (via specific abilities targeted at those enemies), or if just being capable of murdering whatever pitches up is is fine.

In the majority of cases, it's easier to find non-thematic ways of just generally murder killing stuff, unless you actually know what you will be facing (which you shouldn't).

That said, PFS is a bit of a b$@+*%~~ exception since we all know that like 70% of the enemies in the relevant AP's are Evil Humans/Undead/Evil Outsiders... so things like smite and favored enemy are going to be unreasonably effective if you use your meta knowledge to build against those particular things.

The reason I like the Barb build is it's *generally* anti-magic and puts out a lot of non-specific DPS that you don't have to abuse meta knowledge for. Same for the Druid in terms of general power level if you don't know what you're facing.

With the Ranger/Paladin, if a bunch of Chaotic Neutral outsiders pitched up, or a bunch of Lawful Good Halflings who just happen to be part of the other nation's army in a morally ambiguous war, then you would be pretty gimped (relatively).


Rendal, you are right in PF, my mistake.


Cleric will always be the premier anti caster/outsider/undead choice to be honest. Channelling, banishment, better abjurations and saves.

Liberty's Edge

For Paladin: It's worth noting that, like Druids, while they might worship a God, Paladins are not required to and can be an atheist, if you like.

They're powered by righteousness, not a God.


...but from the OP he can't be a Cleric since he specifically wants to not worship a god, and Clerics need GM approval to worship an ideal, which he can't get in PFS (as far as I know, considering it's going to be a bunch of different GM's not known beforehand). Right, off to bed, 1am here and probably rambling o/


Maybe a good Barbarian/ Ranger multiclassing? Someone should be able to so that right. I mean you've got favored ennemy, rage powers and a few good bonus feats depending in the style. You can drop the spells for tricks or traps. Maybe with a few good traits and feats?

Just a proposition that will fit the description.

The Exchange

GM Rednal wrote:
Laureth wrote:
A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god...
Uh, no. Paladins are NOT required to believe in a deity - Clerics in Golarion are, but Paladins can get magic specifically through the general power of goodness. Admittedly, many of them do become religious - because they find deities that match their ideals and the support structure of a church makes their job easier - but it's not actually required. XD

In PFS they are required to worship a deity though.

Liberty's Edge

Jeff Morse wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:
Laureth wrote:
A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god...
Uh, no. Paladins are NOT required to believe in a deity - Clerics in Golarion are, but Paladins can get magic specifically through the general power of goodness. Admittedly, many of them do become religious - because they find deities that match their ideals and the support structure of a church makes their job easier - but it's not actually required. XD
In PFS they are required to worship a deity though.

Ah! True. Also sad.

Grand Lodge

@ Laureth: I'm interested in specific abilities against casters/outsiders/undead.

@ Ryan Freire: In what ways do you find Clerics particularly potent against other casters?

@ Lornis: I was also interested in seeing some Ranger/Barbarian suggestions since Rangers are not tied to spells, give some bonus feats, and have a specific archetype against outsiders. However, I would really need another favored enemy (undead) or something good against undead. I'm not sure barbarians have anything for them except ghost rage (which is great).

@ Jeff Morse: I keep hearing mixed ideas on Paladins needing to worship a deity. Can you provide a source for that ruling?

My list so far:
- Superstitious Barbarian
- Bloodrager (Arcane Bloodline) and/or Untouchable Archetype
- Paladin (if they can follow an ideal)
- Druid

Any ideas on how to make druids effective against casters/outsiders/undead?


Clerics have strong saves in the 2 most "end the fight in one spell" saving throw categories. Their selection of abjuration spells is superior to wizards and their hp and median BAB mean that simply anti-magic shelling and bashing the wizard to death with a mace is a viable option.

Also this spell http://www.dxcontent.com/SDB_SpellBlock.asp?SDBID=1660


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Jeff Morse wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:
Laureth wrote:
A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god...
Uh, no. Paladins are NOT required to believe in a deity - Clerics in Golarion are, but Paladins can get magic specifically through the general power of goodness. Admittedly, many of them do become religious - because they find deities that match their ideals and the support structure of a church makes their job easier - but it's not actually required. XD
In PFS they are required to worship a deity though.
Ah! True. Also sad.

Not necessarily. There are still options.

I've also had the idea of an atheist paladin that is very much about ending 'outsider interference'.

The idea I went with was to go with the Iroran Paladin archetype.

The idea of following Irori is interesting for this concept. Irori is a god focused on self cultivation, and finding your own way to enlightenment (so he would be fairly cool with you deciding 'yeah, no more angels and demons on my shoulders please').

He is also one of the few deities that was once human, and gained godhood through his own efforts. No reliance upon some magical macguffin from outside our realm for him- just the hard work of a mortal man. That seems appealing for this type of character. So worshiping him as an ideal to strive for (a mortal devoted to self perfection) seems within acceptible limits. So his fairly 'hands off' attitude seems like it would fit well.

Another advantage of Iroran Paladin is that they replace smite with a mechanic that works regardless of the enemy alignment. Not as strong as smite...but it also applies to far more situations. You are free to challenge uppity angels and mindless golems.

It also keeps a lot of the core 'tank' mechanics- improved saves, lay on hands, mercies, spells. It actually complements the tank abilities- restricted to light armor for some abilities, but it allows you to add cha to dex for AC. So it is extremely easy to butt heads with max dex on armor while only having modest investment (ie-16/14/14/10/10/14 already touches on it much of the time). And since you pump cha anyway for saves, lay on hands, and spells, it isn't too far out of your way. The main advantage of all this is the fact that you will have great touch AC, and still come out on par with heavy armor if well managed. So it is switching flat footed AC for touch AC, and still staying a tank.

And yes- it is a 'monk' archetype. But you keep your weapon proficiencies...so little reason why you can't grab a nice 2 handed weapon. I would advise a polearm, both due to the fact that reach is awesome and because you have improved unarmed strike for threatening close.

Side note- fey foundling seems like a perfect story justification for this character. IE- this kid spent their childhood in the place that is the farthest from the influence of nagging gods. A place perfectly left to its own devices. You could take that as another model to follow (but one more disciplined, since the material plane is more stable; basically the first world is the CN version, and you want to make this world the LN version)


You could consider focusing more heavily on limiting the influence of outsiders and less on being anti-magic in general.

In that case,

  • Druid/Ranger magic is fine, as the power is sourced from nature itself.
  • Divine magic from those that worship a deity is right out, obviously.
  • Divine magic from those that worship an ideal is up to interpretation. Does the power come from their devotion to the ideal, or is there an outsider somewhere that is sympathetic to that ideal providing the power?
  • Arcane magic is fine if you see it as a manipulation of the existing Box, rather than drawing from outside it. There are some exceptions, though. Teleportation is potentially loathsome, as it involves traveling through the Astral Plane. Plane Shift and Gate are obvious issues, though you could potentially make a "greater good" argument for using them to try to curtail the efforts of outsiders.
  • Psychic magic is fine, as it relies on the power inside one's self, accessed through fine control of one's thoughts and emotions.

That opens up avenues for building a character that leverages supernatural abilities and even magic without causing a contradiction.

Related concept for one of my characters:

In a home game, I've actually got a Psychic Investigator which takes a related view to magic. Magic is generally illegal where he lives due to a nearby leyline that often causes things to go awry. He's gotten a license to make use of his psychic abilities, but it's purely to humor the powers that be -- it wouldn't do for a member of the King's Guard to be breaking the law.

To his thinking, however, his psychic abilities are completely different from magic. Magic is an external thing. Clerics beg their deities for favors, but have no power on their own. Wizard attempts to harness power in the world; it's no different from using a windmill or a water wheel. Psychic abilities, however, are purely internal; by focusing his mind, he wills things to happen. It's the same as how a positive attitude improves how those around you feel and how they perceive you, but on a grander scale.

That said, he's not openly antagonistic to arcane and divine magic -- a tool is a tool, after all. He just sees them as pretenders, borrowing power from forces they don't understand.


Ok so let's look at what you are trying to gain from each class:

Barb:
Primary:
Rage for boosts to strength and con and a nice little boost to Will saves.
Rage powers, notably Superstition for boosts to saves, and Witch Hunter for a little extra dmg to casters.
Secondary:
Stuff

Ranger:
Primary:
Favored Enemy Bonuses (presumably Undead/Evil Outsider/Human)
Free Feats
Secondary:
Animal Companion (Improves if you are allowed Boon Companion feat, I don't know)
Stuff

First off, I would say forget the archery type Ranger if doing this mix as the synergy isn't great and you will be hurting for feats (you need about 6-7 feats to be a "proper" archer), so let's assume melee since it fits better with Rage and is relatively feat lite.

So, on the Barb side, you get Rage for a one level dip, and the little bonus of fast movement, and the other bonus of being able to have a +2 Furious weapon act as a +4 weapon while raging... neat. With Longstrider up all day, that means your base speed is 50... not bad at all. The rage is pretty nice if you are a melee build. But you can only do it for 4 + Con Mod rounds per day at that point, so you need to drop a feat on Extra Rage if doing a one level dip. You also wouldn't get any Rage Powers. On the Ranger side, you lost quarry (meh, never mind) and an extra 3rd level spell (leaving you with only potentially one from bonus spells if you can get wis to 16).... that's huge, since it's one less casting of Instant Enemy... but OK, you still get 3 favored enemies, the free feats and other sundries.

So the R10/B1 trades a feat, quarry and a casting of instant enemy for 12-13 rounds of Rage per day (should cover 3-4 combats). Kind of a wash imho, so fine if you feel like it.

If you go R9/B2, you get a Rage Power (and Uncanny dodge, a nice little bonus). More importantly you get the Rage Power class feature, letting you spend feats on rage powers via Extra Rage Power. Now things are looking a bit more interesting, but we traded our only 3rd level, our third favored enemy and a free feat to do it, and we still need to drop a feat on Extra Rage... ouch... well, at least we can cut WIS down to 12 now. So, let's look at how many feats we have to play with to see if we have any to spare for rage powers:

Let's assume we went Dual Talent (why wouldn't you?) so at 11 we have 6 feats from character levels and two from our 9 Ranger levels. What combat feats do we kind of 'need'?

Power Attack
Extra Rage
Raging Vitality
Weapons Focus

I have assumed a 20pt point buy, used Dual Talent (Str, Con), and put all level stat increases to str. At 11 my stats (raging and not raging) are:

22/26
10
18/24
7
14
7

With those stats and those paltry four feats... we are now swinging (in rage with a +2 Furious Greatsword) at 21/16/11 for 2d6 + 29 and have 159 hp... good enough, leaves us room to dick about. We also still have two favored enemies, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and various sundries like an ok animal companion meatshield/flanking buddy, favored terrains, a handful of utility spells, blah blah blah. We also still have 44 skill ranks despite dumping int because Ranger. Our reflex and will saves could be better though... with a +3 Cloak our saves in rage are 10, 20, 10.

We have a Rage Power and four feats we can use for Rage Powers or Feats that fit our theme of the box. Hmmm... yeah, I'm quite liking this build, quite a lot of fun. We still have 50k to play with since we only bought a sword and cloak so far. Next post: do any rage powers help us much considering we only have two barb levels?


Actually, let's try to deal with the saves first. If we are an anti magic type person they are pretty crucial. Let's grab the +1 reflex and will save character traits (we are now r11/f20,w11) and think about Superstition.

Now, the problem with superstition is it scales every 4 barb levels, and the morale bonus to will saves doesn't stack with our normal +2 moral bonus to will saves. The favored class option doesn't help us since we only took 2 levels of barb and it's a 1/3 bonus. So we get a +2 from it. Using a headband of havoc, we can crank it up to +3 (still only an effective increase of +1 on will save, but still). We are now at r14/f22,w12, so lets drop a feat on Iron Will and upgrade our cloak to a +4 getting us to 15/23/15.... that's good enough, and we still have 25k to play with, and still have 3 feats to play with.

Witch Hunter (via Extra Rage Power) fits really nicely thematically, but it's only a +1 dmg against things with spells/sla's... meh. Disruptive (using a feat to get the rp to get the feat) is ok, but a +4 to concentration checks to cast defensively isn't huge (a decently optimized caster would laugh at it, but them PFS opponents are generally pretty unoptimized anyway).... on the other hand it's not awful, and we could combine it with step up.

The 'utility' rage powers might be a better anti-magic choice and aren't level dependent.... why not grab Night Vision (giving you darkvision), scent (giving you a mundane option against invisible stuff) and auspicious mark (meaning when you do fail a save you can, one per rage, after seeing the result, roll a D6 and add it to the save.... man that's good).

On the Ranger side, make sure you have a handful of scroll of instant enemy for emergencies if s@+! gets real against a BBEG who isn't one of you favored enemies (try to get it off before combat if you can). You also need a crap ton of wands of CLW for between combats.

I haven't trawled the archetypes yet, don't have time right now.

Note that we also haven't even stuck on any stat enhancing items yet, I would probably just go a +2/+2 belt for con/str so you still have cash to spank on bits and bobs. I would def get a bane baldric... noly 5 rounds a day, but it makes you hit super hard, especially if the thing is already your favored enemy. Obvs also try to find ways to get Large, starting with carrying a handful of potions of enlarge person for when you get a chance to buff pre-combat.


Oh yeah, and Winged Boots, or you're boned against anything that flies. Cash is getting tight at this point though, would need to add it all up properly. I've also realized you can't use a bane baldric with a 2h weapon, so you either need to go for two handing something like a longsword and lose a little bit of damage in general for the ability to nova against that BBEG demon or whatever, or drop the baldric. It's a shame though because it definitely fits the theme.

To sum up on possible feats and RP's:

Power Attack
Weapon Focus
Raging Vitality
Extra Rage

Iron Will
Step Up
Superstition
Disruptive (via Extra RP)
Auspicious Mark (via Extra RP)

Possible Kit: (Hmm... assuming you are waving your "no arcane magic" rule for items/weapons... pretty gimped otherwise)

Headband Of Havoc
+2 Furious Weapon
Clock of Resistance +4
Winged Boots
+2/+2 or +4 belt

weapon 18k
belt 10k
cloak 16k
headband 8k
boots 16k

68k (out of wbl 82k right? If PFS strict WBL?)

Maybe a Bane Baldric, but prob pushing it a bit on cash

Edit: lmao, meant cloak of resistance, you are not in Public Enemy :P


Gah, some of my numbers above are a bit off, trying to do this on paper quickly and messing up a bit (slightly off on point buy, was 1 over on BAB, other mistakes). You get the general idea though, which is the point. Hopefully you can make use of at least some of my ramblings. I think it could be a really fun build with a lot of variety.

Still wondering how you feel about magic items... how do you justify using them?

I appreciate I probably haven't focused on abilities *specifically* against casters/outsiders/undead as you are looking for, but then the "casters" part of that is incredibly broad, and the only real answer is have te best saves you can and hurt them a lot really fast because they probably suck for HP. If you narrowed down to outsiders/undead you could get a lot more specific. "Casters" covers at lest half the classes in the game and probably a third of the monsters too.... I think ZZTRaider is on the right lines... it's not really possible to oppose arcane magic in general and not be useless, since martials rely on magic gear far more than casters do (ironically). I think I understand your "box" idea better now I have thought about it more, and what ZZ is saying fits really well.

Edit: also realized Rangers don't actually get any of the melee feats you would actually want in the 2 handed combat style other than Power Attack, which kind of sucks. Furious focus is the best pick for the 6th level, but that means we would need to burn a feat on the weapon focus (thought that was part of the package for some reason). I'm going to shut up now as making far too many mistakes today. I should have put together a separate doc and linked after proofing it rather than going on and on in posts, sorry.

Grand Lodge

@ lemeres: I agree that Paladin of Irori could fit the concept. Thanks for the suggestion!

@ ZZTRaider: Thanks for that helpful breakdown of options. I'm still thinking through how best to narrow down the characters prejudice since it appears too broad. Part of this concept began with wondering who could stand up best against outsiders, so going that route certainly appeals to me.

@ Laureth: Thank you for that mass of suggestions! You've given me a lot to think about. The mixture of Ranger 9/Barbarian 2 certainly seems viable. The trait "berserker of society" comes to mind for added rage rounds if necessary. Access to two favored enemies works well for the idea and I like the feat choices.

Concerning magic items, I have a couple of ideas. The most straightforward option is that the character uses them in spite of their aversion, recognizing the need to fight power with power.

If I had the character focus on opposing the influence of outsiders, divine magic, and the necrotic/undead, what options would that open up? Druid and Barbarian still seem viable. Bloodrager comes to mind as well.


If you felt like being a "naturey" caster with no specifed god who absolutely destroys the enemies you mentioned, Shaman is also a great option (Edit: *crazy OP*)... you get excellent anti-outsider spells like magic circle against evil (3rd), dismissal(4th), dispel evil(5th) and banishment(6th) - and if you take the life spirit, you can also channel energy as a cleric of your level, so you rule against undead. I guess just crank WIS and CHA, get decent con and dump everything else. If you can be middle aged, even better. Get a belt of +6 wis, go dual talent wis and cha (or find a race that does equivalent). You shred undead like nobody else (while healing the whole party as a side effect), and you can end a fight with an evil outsider in one round on your own. Against any humanoid, you have hold/dominate person to end the fight on round one.

This is probably the most effective you are going to get... all the anti undead/outsider power of a cleric with all the anti humanoid power of a wizard... bloody hell, you will annihilate everything... I might play this!!! Have kind of steered clear of the Advanced Class Guide as it's a bit power creepy, but damn this would be fun.

Oh yeah, you get hexes too, lmao. Spend your cash and feats on whatever you can to crank your saves, spell DC and SR penetration. Job done.


In my experience, a Raging barbarian usually manages just fine against undead and outsiders without needing anything else special against them.


...and the Evil Eye Hex lets you give a g$~ d&#n -4 to an enemy's saves... so round one hex, round two dominate/dismiss/banish, fight over. By Jiminy!*

*Jiminy is in no way affiliated with any God or other such divine entity. He is a cricket spirit.


Dave, you are 100% right, that's where I started at several posts above (just hurt them really really bad really fast), but seems the OP is looking for specific, thematic abilities against the kinds of things mentioned.

Grand Lodge

@ Laureth: ...I completely overlooked the Shaman (just got the Advanced Class Guide). It looks incredible, especially the Life focus. Getting life link, channeling, and hexes looks great. Their spell list is also amazing.

I'm partial to martial characters so I need to think through how best I could go with the Shaman. I could see playing them as an anvil/arm mix.

@ Dave: I must confess, I've had Barbarian primarily in mind from the beginning of this concept. It seems the most straightforward option (especially against spell casters). I wanted to see what options people could come up with for Barbarians fighting undead in particular. I agree that the damage route works.

The Exchange

page 10 of guide book- Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of
the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the
star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that
receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source
receive their powers from a deity.
If anyone says other wise not sure where they are getting it.

Liberty's Edge

Jeff Morse wrote:

page 10 of guide book- Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of

the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the
star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that
receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source
receive their powers from a deity.
If anyone says other wise not sure where they are getting it.

That's absolutely true for PFS...it is not necessarily true for Golarion as a setting aside from in PFS.


If you want Ranger abilities and Rage without multiclassing or going VMC:

Go Wild Stalker Ranger -- you trade out Favored Enemy, Ranger Combat Style feats and Hunter's Bond (no raining Tigers, sorry) for Strong Senses (Low Light Vision and improved Perception), Uncanny Dodge, Rage and Rage Powers. You can stack it with any of 3 archetypes that trade out spellcasting:

Skirmisher trades out spellcasting for Hunter Tricks and doesn't trade out anything else, but beware that some Hunter Tricks depend upon you having an Animal Companion or Favored Enemy; some of the others seem pretty good.

Trapper gives you Disable Device in class and gives you Trapfinding apparently without trading out anything, and trades out spellcasting for trapmaking and eventually trap launching, and does not trade out anything other than spells.


Hmm... yeah Wild Stalker is OK, but it does seem to lose one of the primary thematic abilities the OP is looking for in giving up Favored Enemy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

You want to disrupt spellcasters? Be a deaf spirit guide oracle. Take heavens leap hex at third level. Cast silence on yourself and teleport to casters.

Arcane bloodragers are also great at this.

Paladins are very good at smiting everything in sight!

Grand Lodge

@ Jeff: Thanks, I overlooked that. Unless I opt for Irori, that probably rules out Paladins then :(

@UnArcaneElection: I was interested in multi-classing ranger for favored enemy, so Wild Stalker wouldn't be the best. Thanks for the suggestions though.

@ Hmm: That does sound like fun, but it looks like Heaven's Leap only moves allies. I don't want to engage in PvP :) I am very tempted by that bloodrager option, although straight-up barbarian still calls to me. I do hear that Paladins are great at smiting, as well as singing ;)

Thanks for everyone's input. I will hopefully post my build later today, thinking between bloodrager, barbarian, and shaman.

Grand Lodge

I have a build in mind that might slightly move away from the original flavor. Someone above mentioned alchemists as the "scientific" type might lend themselves well to someone opposed to the supernatural. I'm currently thinking about aiming at a hammer/tank using levels of Alchemist for mutagen, feral mutagen, and perhaps master chemist. I have three dips in mind:

Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2/Alchemist 7 (Beastmorph)/Master Chemist 3

If I understand this correctly, I think MoMS gives Dragon Ferocity at lv 2, which is crazy good with feral mutagen. I think picking up Feral Combat Training is necessary to make it work with claws. Feats I'm considering for this build:
- Power Attack
- Weapon Focus (Claw)
- Extra Discoveries (Lingering Spirit?)
- Endurance (Through Half-Orc trait)
- Die hard
- Cornugon Smash?
- Improved Grapple

The second build consists of:

Barbarian 2 (Invulnerable Rager?)/ Alchemist 7 (Beastmorph)/Master Chemist 3

Rage and feral mutagen also go very well together, along with some Rage Powers. Most of my feat ideas so far look the same as above. Thinking about going for Deathless Initiate.

The third build focuses more on anti-spellcaster/anti-undead:

Barbarian 6 (Invulnerable Rager?)/ Alchemist 6 (Beastmorph)

Barbarian 6 will open up Spellsunder and Ghost Rage, while still giving me lv 2 extracts, a few discoveries, and some bombs.

Any ideas/suggestions?


I was going to suggest a Barbarian/Alchemist hybrid archetype to avoid nerfing your class feature progression (and Magical Knack doesn't help an Alchemist), but the one that is available is absolutely awful (Ragechemist just might have managed to beat Crossbowman Fighter in awfulness), so how about Mutagenic Mauler? This even gets you some Beastmorph capability on your Mutagen starting at 4th level. Then get feats to mess up spellcasters.


Oh yes, as a random image/symbol discussion- The Ouroboros. The snake eating its own tail.

I think it is fairly well known that this is a classical symbol of renewal and rebirth, being born from itself and feeding itself.

At the same time, in some interpretations (fairly sure this is medieval christian), it is viewed as a symbol of sin- self destructive, eating away at itself. Also, since it is a closed system, it can be viewed as closing itself to God (and/or all of the outside world). It is viewed as a demonstration of the limited nature of the material world.

As such, it can be an interesting symbol for a "word as a box" scenario. To the user, it can be viewed as a world that gets by on its own without the held of "outsider" interference. To those that worship the gods, it can be viewed as a symbol of arrogance, turning away from the gods.

Also interesting for Irori followers, since Hindu mythology does view it as a symbol of destruction and rebirth. And since Irori is about self perfection, then a being that survives purely through itself also carries such annotations.

Grand Lodge

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Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor.

Studied Target and Bane....

Spell like silence can hose a caster. So can shooting them in the face when they try to cast a spell.

Good saves to help as well.

Grand Lodge

@ UnArcaneElection: My probably with Mutagenic Mauler is missing out on discoveries until 10th lv. I could dip into it and then go into alchemist, but I don't think that would get me very far. I wouldn't get two mutagens.

I don't feel like I'm missing much from dips either way. With Barbarian 2/Alchemist 7/Master Chymist 2, I won't hit 4th lv extracts and miss a discovery or two. I'll instead pick up rage, extra movement, and rage powers.

@ Fruian Thistlefoot: Sanctified slayer is indeed nice, as well as Spellbreaker. Unfortunately, they are based on worshiping a deity.

Here's the build I'm thinking of:

Half-Orc Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 2/ Alchemist (Beastmorph) 7/Master Chymist 3

Str 16+2: 18
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 7

Traits:
Beserker of Society (+3 rounds of Rage)
Something Favor? (+1 bonus to saves with a luck bonus)

Racial Traits:
Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance as bonus feat)
Sacred Tattoo

Lvs: 1 (Barb)/2 (Alc)/3 (Alch)/4 Barb/5 (Alch)/6 (Alch)/7 (Alch)/8 (Alch)/9 (Alch)/10 (Master Chymist)/11 (Master Chymist)

Feats:
Power Attack (1st)
Endurance (Bonus)
Die Hard (3rd)
Extra Discovery: Tumor Familiar (Protector Archetype) (5th)
Cornugon Smash (7th)/ or Improved Familiar?
Deathless Initiate (9th)
11th?

Discoveries:
Feral Mutagen (lv 3)
Tumor Familiar (lv 5, Bonus)
Lingering Spirit (lv 6)
Infusion (lv 8)

Rage Powers:
Guarded Life (lv 4)/ or Lesser Fiend Totem?

This character takes a straightforward approach of dealing with casters through raw damage and a long life. Not sure what to do about the saving throws - not as high as I would like.

Grand Lodge

I'm tempted to opt for Superstitious as my rage power, seeing as a +2 bonus on saves still seems nice. Just wish it could progress more.

Without items, my saves at lv 4 would look like: Fort (+10)/ Ref (+6)/ Will (+2). While raging, they would jump to +12/+8/+4 against spells. That will save still looks pretty sad though.

Alternatively, taking Good For What Ails You with the trait to drink as a move action could work out well.

Thoughts?


croftstr wrote:

@ UnArcaneElection: My probably with Mutagenic Mauler is missing out on discoveries until 10th lv. I could dip into it and then go into alchemist, but I don't think that would get me very far. I wouldn't get two mutagens.

{. . .}

You don't get 2 Mutagens -- instead, the Mutagenic Mauler and Alchemist levels stack to determine the effective Alchemist levels for Mutagens (increases duration and means that you can still get Greater Mutagen at level 12, since Master Chymist levels also stack).

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