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Hello World,
I'm thinking through a PFS character concept of someone who rejects influences outside the "natural order." The character does not necessarily deny the existence of gods, angels, magic, etc. Their aim, however, is repressing these influences. They favor picturing the world as a "box," a closed system.
I would like to make a character skilled at combating magic users, outsiders, and the undead. Here's what I have so far:
Anti-Magic:
- Superstitious chain or rage powers
- Step-Up feat chain
- Boost to saves from Divine Grace
- Boost to saves from Dwarven racial trait and Glory of Old?
- Arcane bloodline from blood rager
Anti-Outsider:
- Cold Iron
- Variant Channeling
- Smite Evil
- Favored Enemy
Anti-Undead:
- Smite Evil
- Channel Energy
I've had a particular difficult time coming up with ideas on combating outsiders.
Any ideas on how to combine these features or do I need to narrow my focus?
Thanks for any help you can provide!
I'm not sure if unchained variant multiclassing is valid in PFS but if it is then go with the Primal Untouchable Blood rager arcane bloodline with VMC Paladin. You'll have smite evil at level 11, you'll have spell resistance, disruption, spell breaker, spell sunder, witch hunter, superstitious. You don't have to be lawful good but NG would be best as you need to follow a paladin code of conduct.
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Wow, so much feed back in so little time! I'll try to go in order of posters:
@Laureth: I agree that multi-classing proves challenging for this idea, although Paladin/Barbarian be possible if I dump Int and opt for a marginal Wis. I considered going straight Paladin for effects against Outsiders and Undead, but they seemed limited against spellcasters. They will have good saves, but I would need to focus all of my feats against magic users. Are Paladins allowed to commit themselves to an idea instead of a deity in PFS? If so, the class could work. Perhaps someone committed to preserving the natural world?
I agree that Druids fit the concept very well. Do you have specific ways they would be effective against the three areas I mentioned (besides raining tigers upon their unfortunate heads)?
@voska66: Nice idea, but I don't think PFS allows variant multi-classing.
@Markov: I'm still thinking through if I'm outright against being a spellcaster. Some classes, like Druid, fit very well. Skald could fit the concept, but not as apparently. In any case, I like the archetype suggestion. Any ideas how they could work against Outsiders and Undead? I see you mention the Celestial Bloodline, but it looks like it mostly gives you resistances.
@Shiroi: I agree that Barbarian and Alchemists fit the "natural" bill more readily. I mention the Arcane Bloodline of Bloodrager because it seems designed against magic users. Perhaps the character resents having the trace of arcane influence? Maybe they even use their innate abilities begrudgingly against other casters? As I mentioned above, some Paladins are committed to ideas.
Thanks again for everyone's feedback!
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind trying to get rid of magic and outsider influence using an arcane spellcasting class (bloodrager) or a divine class (paladin), unless your allowed to refluff them as getting these powers some other way that you consider more "natural".
The untouchable bloodrager loses spellcasting for spell resistance.
The untouchable bloodrager loses spellcasting for spell resistance.I'd love to hear the reasoning behind trying to get rid of magic and outsider influence using an arcane spellcasting class (bloodrager) or a divine class (paladin), unless your allowed to refluff them as getting these powers some other way that you consider more "natural".
And there is at least one paladin archetype that loses spells.
I would consider a paladin of Erastil due to his nature theme.
Cleric will always be the premier anti caster/outsider/undead choice to be honest. Channelling, banishment, better abjurations and saves.
Maybe a good Barbarian/ Ranger multiclassing? Someone should be able to so that right. I mean you've got favored ennemy, rage powers and a few good bonus feats depending in the style. You can drop the spells for tricks or traps. Maybe with a few good traits and feats?
Just a proposition that will fit the description.
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A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god...Uh, no. Paladins are NOT required to believe in a deity - Clerics in Golarion are, but Paladins can get magic specifically through the general power of goodness. Admittedly, many of them do become religious - because they find deities that match their ideals and the support structure of a church makes their job easier - but it's not actually required. XD
In PFS they are required to worship a deity though.
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In PFS they are required to worship a deity though.A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god...Uh, no. Paladins are NOT required to believe in a deity - Clerics in Golarion are, but Paladins can get magic specifically through the general power of goodness. Admittedly, many of them do become religious - because they find deities that match their ideals and the support structure of a church makes their job easier - but it's not actually required. XD
Ah! True. Also sad.
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@ Laureth: I'm interested in specific abilities against casters/outsiders/undead.
@ Ryan Freire: In what ways do you find Clerics particularly potent against other casters?
@ Lornis: I was also interested in seeing some Ranger/Barbarian suggestions since Rangers are not tied to spells, give some bonus feats, and have a specific archetype against outsiders. However, I would really need another favored enemy (undead) or something good against undead. I'm not sure barbarians have anything for them except ghost rage (which is great).
@ Jeff Morse: I keep hearing mixed ideas on Paladins needing to worship a deity. Can you provide a source for that ruling?
My list so far:
- Superstitious Barbarian
- Bloodrager (Arcane Bloodline) and/or Untouchable Archetype
- Paladin (if they can follow an ideal)
- Druid
Any ideas on how to make druids effective against casters/outsiders/undead?
Clerics have strong saves in the 2 most "end the fight in one spell" saving throw categories. Their selection of abjuration spells is superior to wizards and their hp and median BAB mean that simply anti-magic shelling and bashing the wizard to death with a mace is a viable option.
Also this spell http://www.dxcontent.com/SDB_SpellBlock.asp?SDBID=1660
Ah! True. Also sad.In PFS they are required to worship a deity though.A straight up Paladin works well against those kind of enemies of course, but kind of defeats the point since they are casters and definitely believe in a specific god...Uh, no. Paladins are NOT required to believe in a deity - Clerics in Golarion are, but Paladins can get magic specifically through the general power of goodness. Admittedly, many of them do become religious - because they find deities that match their ideals and the support structure of a church makes their job easier - but it's not actually required. XD
Not necessarily. There are still options.
I've also had the idea of an atheist paladin that is very much about ending 'outsider interference'.
The idea I went with was to go with the Iroran Paladin archetype.
The idea of following Irori is interesting for this concept. Irori is a god focused on self cultivation, and finding your own way to enlightenment (so he would be fairly cool with you deciding 'yeah, no more angels and demons on my shoulders please').
He is also one of the few deities that was once human, and gained godhood through his own efforts. No reliance upon some magical macguffin from outside our realm for him- just the hard work of a mortal man. That seems appealing for this type of character. So worshiping him as an ideal to strive for (a mortal devoted to self perfection) seems within acceptible limits. So his fairly 'hands off' attitude seems like it would fit well.
Another advantage of Iroran Paladin is that they replace smite with a mechanic that works regardless of the enemy alignment. Not as strong as smite...but it also applies to far more situations. You are free to challenge uppity angels and mindless golems.
It also keeps a lot of the core 'tank' mechanics- improved saves, lay on hands, mercies, spells. It actually complements the tank abilities- restricted to light armor for some abilities, but it allows you to add cha to dex for AC. So it is extremely easy to butt heads with max dex on armor while only having modest investment (ie-16/14/14/10/10/14 already touches on it much of the time). And since you pump cha anyway for saves, lay on hands, and spells, it isn't too far out of your way. The main advantage of all this is the fact that you will have great touch AC, and still come out on par with heavy armor if well managed. So it is switching flat footed AC for touch AC, and still staying a tank.
And yes- it is a 'monk' archetype. But you keep your weapon proficiencies...so little reason why you can't grab a nice 2 handed weapon. I would advise a polearm, both due to the fact that reach is awesome and because you have improved unarmed strike for threatening close.
Side note- fey foundling seems like a perfect story justification for this character. IE- this kid spent their childhood in the place that is the farthest from the influence of nagging gods. A place perfectly left to its own devices. You could take that as another model to follow (but one more disciplined, since the material plane is more stable; basically the first world is the CN version, and you want to make this world the LN version)
You could consider focusing more heavily on limiting the influence of outsiders and less on being anti-magic in general.
In that case,
- Druid/Ranger magic is fine, as the power is sourced from nature itself.
- Divine magic from those that worship a deity is right out, obviously.
- Divine magic from those that worship an ideal is up to interpretation. Does the power come from their devotion to the ideal, or is there an outsider somewhere that is sympathetic to that ideal providing the power?
- Arcane magic is fine if you see it as a manipulation of the existing Box, rather than drawing from outside it. There are some exceptions, though. Teleportation is potentially loathsome, as it involves traveling through the Astral Plane. Plane Shift and Gate are obvious issues, though you could potentially make a "greater good" argument for using them to try to curtail the efforts of outsiders.
- Psychic magic is fine, as it relies on the power inside one's self, accessed through fine control of one's thoughts and emotions.
That opens up avenues for building a character that leverages supernatural abilities and even magic without causing a contradiction.
In a home game, I've actually got a Psychic Investigator which takes a related view to magic. Magic is generally illegal where he lives due to a nearby leyline that often causes things to go awry. He's gotten a license to make use of his psychic abilities, but it's purely to humor the powers that be -- it wouldn't do for a member of the King's Guard to be breaking the law.
To his thinking, however, his psychic abilities are completely different from magic. Magic is an external thing. Clerics beg their deities for favors, but have no power on their own. Wizard attempts to harness power in the world; it's no different from using a windmill or a water wheel. Psychic abilities, however, are purely internal; by focusing his mind, he wills things to happen. It's the same as how a positive attitude improves how those around you feel and how they perceive you, but on a grander scale.
That said, he's not openly antagonistic to arcane and divine magic -- a tool is a tool, after all. He just sees them as pretenders, borrowing power from forces they don't understand.
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@ lemeres: I agree that Paladin of Irori could fit the concept. Thanks for the suggestion!
@ ZZTRaider: Thanks for that helpful breakdown of options. I'm still thinking through how best to narrow down the characters prejudice since it appears too broad. Part of this concept began with wondering who could stand up best against outsiders, so going that route certainly appeals to me.
@ Laureth: Thank you for that mass of suggestions! You've given me a lot to think about. The mixture of Ranger 9/Barbarian 2 certainly seems viable. The trait "berserker of society" comes to mind for added rage rounds if necessary. Access to two favored enemies works well for the idea and I like the feat choices.
Concerning magic items, I have a couple of ideas. The most straightforward option is that the character uses them in spite of their aversion, recognizing the need to fight power with power.
If I had the character focus on opposing the influence of outsiders, divine magic, and the necrotic/undead, what options would that open up? Druid and Barbarian still seem viable. Bloodrager comes to mind as well.
In my experience, a Raging barbarian usually manages just fine against undead and outsiders without needing anything else special against them.
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@ Laureth: ...I completely overlooked the Shaman (just got the Advanced Class Guide). It looks incredible, especially the Life focus. Getting life link, channeling, and hexes looks great. Their spell list is also amazing.
I'm partial to martial characters so I need to think through how best I could go with the Shaman. I could see playing them as an anvil/arm mix.
@ Dave: I must confess, I've had Barbarian primarily in mind from the beginning of this concept. It seems the most straightforward option (especially against spell casters). I wanted to see what options people could come up with for Barbarians fighting undead in particular. I agree that the damage route works.
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page 10 of guide book- Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of
the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the
star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that
receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source
receive their powers from a deity.
If anyone says other wise not sure where they are getting it.
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page 10 of guide book- Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of
the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the
star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that
receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source
receive their powers from a deity.
If anyone says other wise not sure where they are getting it.
That's absolutely true for PFS...it is not necessarily true for Golarion as a setting aside from in PFS.
If you want Ranger abilities and Rage without multiclassing or going VMC:
Go Wild Stalker Ranger -- you trade out Favored Enemy, Ranger Combat Style feats and Hunter's Bond (no raining Tigers, sorry) for Strong Senses (Low Light Vision and improved Perception), Uncanny Dodge, Rage and Rage Powers. You can stack it with any of 3 archetypes that trade out spellcasting:
Skirmisher trades out spellcasting for Hunter Tricks and doesn't trade out anything else, but beware that some Hunter Tricks depend upon you having an Animal Companion or Favored Enemy; some of the others seem pretty good.
Trapper gives you Disable Device in class and gives you Trapfinding apparently without trading out anything, and trades out spellcasting for trapmaking and eventually trap launching, and does not trade out anything other than spells.
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@ Jeff: Thanks, I overlooked that. Unless I opt for Irori, that probably rules out Paladins then :(
@UnArcaneElection: I was interested in multi-classing ranger for favored enemy, so Wild Stalker wouldn't be the best. Thanks for the suggestions though.
@ Hmm: That does sound like fun, but it looks like Heaven's Leap only moves allies. I don't want to engage in PvP :) I am very tempted by that bloodrager option, although straight-up barbarian still calls to me. I do hear that Paladins are great at smiting, as well as singing ;)
Thanks for everyone's input. I will hopefully post my build later today, thinking between bloodrager, barbarian, and shaman.
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I have a build in mind that might slightly move away from the original flavor. Someone above mentioned alchemists as the "scientific" type might lend themselves well to someone opposed to the supernatural. I'm currently thinking about aiming at a hammer/tank using levels of Alchemist for mutagen, feral mutagen, and perhaps master chemist. I have three dips in mind:
Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2/Alchemist 7 (Beastmorph)/Master Chemist 3
If I understand this correctly, I think MoMS gives Dragon Ferocity at lv 2, which is crazy good with feral mutagen. I think picking up Feral Combat Training is necessary to make it work with claws. Feats I'm considering for this build:
- Power Attack
- Weapon Focus (Claw)
- Extra Discoveries (Lingering Spirit?)
- Endurance (Through Half-Orc trait)
- Die hard
- Cornugon Smash?
- Improved Grapple
The second build consists of:
Barbarian 2 (Invulnerable Rager?)/ Alchemist 7 (Beastmorph)/Master Chemist 3
Rage and feral mutagen also go very well together, along with some Rage Powers. Most of my feat ideas so far look the same as above. Thinking about going for Deathless Initiate.
The third build focuses more on anti-spellcaster/anti-undead:
Barbarian 6 (Invulnerable Rager?)/ Alchemist 6 (Beastmorph)
Barbarian 6 will open up Spellsunder and Ghost Rage, while still giving me lv 2 extracts, a few discoveries, and some bombs.
Any ideas/suggestions?
I was going to suggest a Barbarian/Alchemist hybrid archetype to avoid nerfing your class feature progression (and Magical Knack doesn't help an Alchemist), but the one that is available is absolutely awful (Ragechemist just might have managed to beat Crossbowman Fighter in awfulness), so how about Mutagenic Mauler? This even gets you some Beastmorph capability on your Mutagen starting at 4th level. Then get feats to mess up spellcasters.
Oh yes, as a random image/symbol discussion- The Ouroboros. The snake eating its own tail.
I think it is fairly well known that this is a classical symbol of renewal and rebirth, being born from itself and feeding itself.
At the same time, in some interpretations (fairly sure this is medieval christian), it is viewed as a symbol of sin- self destructive, eating away at itself. Also, since it is a closed system, it can be viewed as closing itself to God (and/or all of the outside world). It is viewed as a demonstration of the limited nature of the material world.
As such, it can be an interesting symbol for a "word as a box" scenario. To the user, it can be viewed as a world that gets by on its own without the held of "outsider" interference. To those that worship the gods, it can be viewed as a symbol of arrogance, turning away from the gods.
Also interesting for Irori followers, since Hindu mythology does view it as a symbol of destruction and rebirth. And since Irori is about self perfection, then a being that survives purely through itself also carries such annotations.
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@ UnArcaneElection: My probably with Mutagenic Mauler is missing out on discoveries until 10th lv. I could dip into it and then go into alchemist, but I don't think that would get me very far. I wouldn't get two mutagens.
I don't feel like I'm missing much from dips either way. With Barbarian 2/Alchemist 7/Master Chymist 2, I won't hit 4th lv extracts and miss a discovery or two. I'll instead pick up rage, extra movement, and rage powers.
@ Fruian Thistlefoot: Sanctified slayer is indeed nice, as well as Spellbreaker. Unfortunately, they are based on worshiping a deity.
Here's the build I'm thinking of:
Half-Orc Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 2/ Alchemist (Beastmorph) 7/Master Chymist 3
Str 16+2: 18
Dex 12
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 7
Traits:
Beserker of Society (+3 rounds of Rage)
Something Favor? (+1 bonus to saves with a luck bonus)
Racial Traits:
Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance as bonus feat)
Sacred Tattoo
Lvs: 1 (Barb)/2 (Alc)/3 (Alch)/4 Barb/5 (Alch)/6 (Alch)/7 (Alch)/8 (Alch)/9 (Alch)/10 (Master Chymist)/11 (Master Chymist)
Feats:
Power Attack (1st)
Endurance (Bonus)
Die Hard (3rd)
Extra Discovery: Tumor Familiar (Protector Archetype) (5th)
Cornugon Smash (7th)/ or Improved Familiar?
Deathless Initiate (9th)
11th?
Discoveries:
Feral Mutagen (lv 3)
Tumor Familiar (lv 5, Bonus)
Lingering Spirit (lv 6)
Infusion (lv 8)
Rage Powers:
Guarded Life (lv 4)/ or Lesser Fiend Totem?
This character takes a straightforward approach of dealing with casters through raw damage and a long life. Not sure what to do about the saving throws - not as high as I would like.
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I'm tempted to opt for Superstitious as my rage power, seeing as a +2 bonus on saves still seems nice. Just wish it could progress more.
Without items, my saves at lv 4 would look like: Fort (+10)/ Ref (+6)/ Will (+2). While raging, they would jump to +12/+8/+4 against spells. That will save still looks pretty sad though.
Alternatively, taking Good For What Ails You with the trait to drink as a move action could work out well.
Thoughts?
@ UnArcaneElection: My probably with Mutagenic Mauler is missing out on discoveries until 10th lv. I could dip into it and then go into alchemist, but I don't think that would get me very far. I wouldn't get two mutagens.
{. . .}
You don't get 2 Mutagens -- instead, the Mutagenic Mauler and Alchemist levels stack to determine the effective Alchemist levels for Mutagens (increases duration and means that you can still get Greater Mutagen at level 12, since Master Chymist levels also stack).