I've been given the go ahead to play an evil Cleric in an upcoming campaign. I just found out there would be a paladin in our group, and I'm wondering how to hide my aura of evil from him from the start. I'm hoping my bluff skill, I picked trickery as a domain, will be enough to keep the paladin at bay, but I'd like some ideas on how to keep it from him.
The issue is compounded by the fact I was intending to raise and control some undead minions. I can always try and bluff that as well, but I'm not sure how often "I was able to save their life and they've devoted their lives to serve my church. Also they've taken a vow of silence" will work.
I'm open to both role playing and mechanics ideas.
at first level there isn't anyway for you to hide your aura
edit: also raising undead with a paladin in the party will lead to conflict, paladins get detect undead
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No doubt you'll often be given the advice not to be an Evil character in a group with a Paladin in the first place, so I won't bother.
You could be an Evil Cleric of a non-Evil deity. You have your god's alignment aura after all, not your own.
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My advice is don't play evil.
It will cause problems sooner or later.
I know it sucks that when a person says "I want to be a paladin" it auto dictates the party into being good-Neutral but sadly that is the dilemma when playing with people who have a hard on to be a moral babysitter. But that is the nature of the beast.
Just do yourself the favor and don't play evil.
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Work it out with the other player. There isn't really a way to do it by the rules.
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I'm also on board with the "don't play evil" group.
Don't.
Just don't.
The ONLY time it works is if:
A) The whole party is evil, in which case it can be lots of fun but you need EVERY player to agree to this, and the GM needs to build the campaign for it, or it doesn't work.
or
B) You're starting out as evil but you're repentant and sorry for the things you've done and looking to change your ways. Soon. Very soon. Meaning you're really working on changing your alignment to non-evil very soon. The "I'm looking for redemption" story is cliche, but still it's fun to play.
Neither of those things is what you're doing here.
What you ARE doing is creating an impossible situation in your group. Either your character or the paladin MUST leave this group or there will be bloodshed.
Why on earth are you sitting down with friends to play a game but you're choosing to make it impossible???
Just don't do it.
Save this character concept for your NEXT campaign and convince the players to all roll up evil characters (or convince them to do it now for this campaign).
Yeah, I'm not giving up my character concept, because of the paladin.
That's why I'm asking for advice, and if the only thing that might work is bluff, then bluff I shall.
An infiltrator inquisitor could do it at level 1.
I'm going to throw my piece in with the others and say "Do not play an evil character if there is a paladin in the party" though.
If the paladin is going to be using detect evil willy-nilly, you'll need to get undetectable alignment ASAP. It's a second level cleric spell, so in the meantime you would need to get scrolls or potions of it.
Alternatively, make up an excuse for why you detect as evil. The easiest is that there's a curse tied to some object that you'll get rid of once you're casting undetectable alignment.
Edit: I agree with the people saying don't play evil with a paladin up to a point. The key is that you want to be lying to the paladin, not the other player.
Yeah, I'm not giving up my character concept, because of the paladin.
That's why I'm asking for advice, and if the only thing that might work is bluff, then bluff I shall.
better hope his dump stat is WIS because paladins get Sense Motive
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Also, don't presume on social skills working on other PCs. Many GMs don't allow that.
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I know it sucks that when a person says "I want to be a paladin" it auto dictates the party into being good-Neutral but sadly that is the dilemma when playing with people who have a hard on to be a moral babysitter. But that is the nature of the beast.
Or, you know, when one player says "I want to play an evil character" and it auto dictates the party not to include any zealous good clerics or paladins ;)
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You've 'been given the go-ahead' by your DM to play an evil cleric, Neils Bohr? This go-ahead has presumably given to the paladin player too, right? Maybe you should ask your DM about this. She might, no should have an idea about how on the surface party destroying compositions will in fact work in the planned campaign.
But the most important piece of I can offer is: talk to the paladin player. You both obviously want to play characters to whom alignment matters. Make it work. Put up a show for the other players and the DM where you characters fight but always in the end find common ground.
In general, my experience is that everyone has alot more fun if players are open with their intentions. Some might call this meta-gaming, I say let's create interesting stories. My co-player will probably be completely oblivious to my attempt to act out how my character flirts with hers, and we get no inter-PC love story. Instead, I say out loud to the entire gaming table »My character has fallen in love with hers, wanna play on that?«. The other PCs don't yet know about this crush, but their players can help me make something out of this.
Likewise, you should say to your paladin player »Can we co-operate on keeping my PCs evil alignment a secret for your paladin while our characters become friends and then have the reality slowly dawn on the paladin and make this a story about redemption or how ends justify means or something?
If the paladin is going to be using detect evil willy-nilly, you'll need to get undetectable alignment ASAP. It's a second level cleric spell, so in the meantime you would need to get scrolls or potions of it.
Alternatively, make up an excuse for why you detect as evil. The easiest is that there's a curse tied to some object that you'll get rid of once you're casting undetectable alignment.
Edit: I agree with the people saying don't play evil with a paladin up to a point. The key is that you want to be lying to the paladin, not the other player.
I like both of those ideas, thanks
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Yeah, I'm not giving up my character concept, because of the paladin.
That's why I'm asking for advice, and if the only thing that might work is bluff, then bluff I shall.
Not telling you to give it up. Play something else and ask to play your character concept next time paladin free. Since a Paladin Player dictates the groups alignment and actions.
There is more opportunities than this...no need to cause problems.
If the player wanting to play a Paladin did do after he knew what you were playing then he should change.
If you are wanting to sneak evil past the rest of the players you are being the problem and it will be resolved in the first couple of sessions when the other pc;s kill your pc or tell him to get lost.
So resolve it out of game so there is a reason for the group to work or design a replacement character for use after a potential group/campaign destroying blow up.
Bluff will not work to hide the undead , it is just not going to work someone will make the easy knowledge check to recognise them and even if bluff works on fellow pc's your bluff will be comparable to their sense motive and the -5 to -10 you are getting for an implausible story will mean they make it
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How many people do you need advising you not to do it?
This is really not a good idea. I have seen a lot of campaigns crash and burn because of the type of conflict this situation engenders. I'm guessing I'm not alone.
It might be possible to make it work but that will take a lot of effort - starting with a full and frank discussion with the paladin player and your GM.
Save the concept for a more appropriate campaign, or adapt it to non-evil, or ask the paladin player to change his character.
If the player wanting to play a Paladin did do after he knew what you were playing then he should change.
If you are wanting to sneak evil past the rest of the players you are being the problem and it will be resolved in the first couple of sessions when the other pc;s kill your pc or tell him to get lost.
So resolve it out of game so there is a reason for the group to work or design a replacement character for use after a potential group/campaign destroying blow up.Bluff will not work to hide the undead , it is just not going to work someone will make the easy knowledge check to recognise them and even if bluff works on fellow pc's your bluff will be comparable to their sense motive and the -5 to -10 you are getting for an implausible story will mean they make it
from the first post it sounds like the paladin was there first
You've 'been given the go-ahead' by your DM to play an evil cleric, Neils Bohr? This go-ahead has presumably given to the paladin player too, right? Maybe you should ask your DM about this. She might, no should have an idea about how on the surface party destroying compositions will in fact work in the planned campaign.But the most important piece of I can offer is: talk to the paladin player. You both obviously want to play characters to whom alignment matters. Make it work. Put up a show for the other players and the DM where you characters fight but always in the end find common ground.
In general, my experience is that everyone has alot more fun if players are open with their intentions. Some might call this meta-gaming, I say let's create interesting stories. My co-player will probably be completely oblivious to my attempt to act out how my character flirts with hers, and we get no inter-PC love story. Instead, I say out loud to the entire gaming table »My character has fallen in love with hers, wanna play on that?«. The other PCs don't yet know about this crush, but their players can help me make something out of this.
Likewise, you should say to your paladin player »Can we co-operate on keeping my PCs evil alignment a secret for your paladin while our characters become friends and then have the reality slowly dawn on the paladin and make this a story about redemption or something?
We're all in it for the interesting stories as well, this will not be an issue, or a group ending decision. I should have phrased my intention better, I'm looking for advice on how to deal with the character motives, not the player issues. I'm looking for things the character might do to keep the paladin from finding out in the pathfinder world.
I'm not planning a character that is a homicidal psychopath, I will be playing Lawful Evil, and the character follows all of the laws because they are what protect him from the Paladin just getting away with caving his skull in. He just thinks the world would be better if he made the rules, and has no qualms about doing completely immoral, yet totally legal, things to secure his power.
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I know it sucks that when a person says "I want to be a paladin" it auto dictates the party into being good-Neutral but sadly that is the dilemma when playing with people who have a hard on to be a moral babysitter. But that is the nature of the beast.Or, you know, when one player says "I want to play an evil character" and it auto dictates the party not to include any zealous good clerics or paladins ;)
Actually I've played LE in many groups with NG and CG characters. Its the problem of LG that they are zealous and uncompromising. Most paladin players know little more than "If it detects evil, Smite it." they let their Codes and Alignment be a straight jacket for themselves AND their group.
Not to mention His Code tells him to not work with you. Once he knows your evil...He will have to either Split from you or Smite you and make you answer for the crimes you have committed. Or the Paladin risks Falling. And no one wants the whole party to break up cause Both sides are uncompromising.
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There's only one way I can think of to make an undead-using cleric work in a paladin party..
First off, worship a neutral deity. If you worship an evil deity your Aura ability will make the evil shine like a beacon to the paladin right at 1st level, but if you worship a neutral deity you have until 5th level to figure out some way to mask your alignment. The deity themselves will have to be one friendly to undead. Pharasma, for example, hates undead so she's right out. Anubis would probably work (LN).
Secondly, reconsider being *actually* evil and instead consider merely walking the line and calling it neutral. You can be very unsympathetic and consider using undead as a tool to merely be a necessary evil without actual going full evil yourself. The key is that you must use the undead for good purposes to counteract the effect that creating them would have on your being.
Thirdly: Even with the above, the Paladin player would have to be one who worships/serves a god that is not strongly opposed to undead. I'm not sure which that would be, but there is probably one. Then you have to use the alternative paladin codes that are deity-specific so that merely working with undead in the party doesn't immediately cause the paladin to fall. Anubis might actually work here as well.
So an LN cleric of anubis working with a paladin of the same is probably the only remotely stable Undead-Using Cleric + Paladin combo out there. In fact, if you both serve/worship anubis, the DM can even handwave the "don't work with evil" requirement of paladin w/r/t to you due to being commanded by the same god.
If you can't work out something like the above, then your best bet is to plead with the paladin player to play something else. Failing that, hold the concept for another day. Think of it this way: If you play this character now without the above cooperation, it rips the party apart and you still don't actually get to play it. So your worst case is to save it for when you actually get to play it.
Undetectable alignment would be the way to prevent alignment detection from an early level, but not first level. Scrolls will be a bit expensive to maintain until you reach third level.
For the undead, misdirection would be how you could hide their alignment aura.
I will repeat other comments though. This is a bad idea.
This is a bad idea.
This isn't really the sort of con you can really pull off throughout a campaign unless the other (paladin) player is fine with this. Otherwise there is going to be a point that you two are going to come against each other and the game will go to hell (slowly or immediately).
The best I can give for playing this character is get this all settled between you, the paladin player, and the GM. If all three of your are completely fine with the character actions. That is better than any amount of mechanical advice I can give.
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Actually:
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
It is not in the Pathfinder Paladin's code of conduct that she cannot party with an evil character, and it goes out of it's way to say she is allowed to do so as long as it serves a greater good (like defeating an even greater evil).
Aka, as long as the Paladin player isn't playing Lawful Stupid, then it can be made to work.
Try reading the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman for what I consider *THE* story about a paladin and an evil character (a vampire) that work together and become friends and companions.
Basically, it boils down to "I won't flaunt what I do in your face as long as you don't preach in mine".
It's a dick move on the part of whichever of you announced your character concept 2nd, unless you're both OK with it..
Clerics of an evil god ping on detect evil at 1st level, and undead at 2hd, so outside of ring(s) of mind shielding given to you well above WBL, so no defense against the paladin pinging any prospective companion against this exact threat to his holiness.
So, if the campaign is based on an overwhelmingly evil threat, instead of trying to hide it, you could sell him on needing your help to work against the greater evil. Or have you teamed up by superiors as an intra-faith taskforce, like abadar and asmodeus cults in a city trying to increase cooperation.. At that point, hiding how evil you are is being polite to avoid offending him, instead of attempting to corrupt him. A lot depends on what faith and style of clergy the two of you are..
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Yeah, I'm not giving up my character concept, because of the paladin.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but that's not a very mature response. Take it not only from me but from the other posters on this thread. Also search for this kind of thing and you'll find hundreds of other threads that all say the same thing.
This will lead to big problems. Problems that cannot be resolved by a handshake or a bluff check. Problems that will make that paladin fall or make him kill you or die trying, or at least cause one of your characters to leave the group (generally, whichever one is the most unusual alignment for the whole group).
Saying "I'm not giving up my character concept" is really saying "I plan to ruin this game and obstruct the fun of the paladin player, the GM, and even the other players and I'm willing to do that for my own fun because my fun is all that matters."
If that's your idea of fun gaming, you might want to abandon table-top gaming right now and stick with computer gaming where this kind of "fun" is far more appropriate.
I'm posting this (at length) because I hope that is NOT what you're trying to do.
That's why I'm asking for advice, and if the only thing that might work is bluff, then bluff I shall.
Good, you're asking for advice, which means you see the problem and you don't want to be the cause of the problem, right?
Bluff won't solve it.
Unless that paladin is deaf, blind, and has no nose, and also dumped his INT and WIS down to about 2 each, he's going to see, hear, and smell your undead, detect them magically, and detect your alignment too. Bluff can't beat all that. And if you're spending a significant portion of your daily spells to hide all this (which you cannot do until long after the paladin already knows what you are), then you are playing a limited spellcaster who doesn't get all his spell slots for actual adventuring.
At best, at the very best, Bluff might delay the inevitable problem. The problem that YOU are creating now and that will eventually damage or even destroy this campaign.
It's far more reasonable and far more mature to just drop the idea (for now), create a fun and interesting character who can adventure with the paladin, and then use this character idea in a future campaign.
Okay my sugestions is if you want to play an evil cleric with the paladin you can make it work so long as there is a reason the paladin needs to work with you aka big bad evil guy, however don't raise dead or do any evil acts because if the paladin is role playing the way he should he should be attacking you the moment you do
One way to do it is play a cleric with one step of the neutral God. Say the Abadar who is LN and you are LE. You won't detect as evil then till you are 5 HD. By the time you hit level 5 you should have access to thing to hide your alignment. A cleric of evil deity shows up evil at 1 HD so you're doomed if you go that route right off the start.
Anyone consider that given the groups dynamic that the answer should be the other player not playing the Paladin? Paladins are generally much more disruptive to a group dynamic than your average evil cleric.
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Let me re-iterate and clarify.
We're all on board, I'm not hiding it from the player, I'm hiding it from the character.
I did have my character designed first, I'm looking for ways for both of us to have fun with an interesting set of circumstances.
You see this? This is what is gonna happen. It doesn't matter if the character doesn't know you're evil (Unlikely as that is anyways), the player will. And speaking from personal experience here, it's very hard to adventure with somebody who you are pretty damn certain you can't trust, or might try to backstab you at a later time, or might otherwise give you a massive headache (like causing you to potentially lose your powers).
Now, I won't say that it's impossible to play as a part of Team Evil when you're adventuring with a Paladin. After all, I've taken part in that equation on both sides. What I will say that it's a pain in the ass to manage, and required that the character not lie about what they were. Yes, this leads to some immediate danger in many cases, but if you actually talk about things and tell the Paladin why it's a better idea to work with you rather than lose a potent ally in the fight against Senor Much-Worse. And, quite frankly, with the way you're acting here, I don't think you can manage that. So, to sum up what most other individuals have said here....
DON'T BE EVIL.
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Anyone consider that given the groups dynamic that the answer should be the other player not playing the Paladin? Paladins are generally much more disruptive to a group dynamic than your average evil cleric.
Except that the Cleric can do everything he said he wanted to do in the first post with a neutral cleric. Sure, Paladin #487 may get a bit uppity about the mobile packets of undead evil, but again, this is where the "greater good" bit comes in. He's literally wanting to be evil because... Ummm... Reasons?
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Okay my sugestions is if you want to play an evil cleric with the paladin you can make it work so long as there is a reason the paladin needs to work with you aka big bad evil guy, however don't raise dead or do any evil acts because if the paladin is role playing the way he should he should be attacking you the moment you do
Actually no he shouldn't. That is just bad roleplaying of a 2 dimensional stereotype.
Maybe its my background of Eberron being my favorite campaign setting back in 3e, but when I play a Paladin one thing I always keep in mind is that *EVERYONE* is evil to some degree. No heart is pure, and that my actions have to be proportionate to what I see.
Just because the fish monger in town is using off-weighted scales to swindle people doesn't mean I should smite him. Doesn't matter if he pings on the evil-dar because he is intentionally hurting and abusing the people in his town for his own profit, it does no good to try and confront him about it and would damage the community even further to try and make a big deal about it.
It really, really helps to get away from the mindset that Evil = Pointless murdering and foul deeds. At it's base, being Evil in this game boils down to putting yourself above the interests of others, if hurting someone else (not just physically, but could be emotionally, financially, etc) makes you better off, then you don't see that as being something to avoid.
It doesn't mean you can't do "good" things, it just means the REASON why you are doing them is self serving.
An evil priest can be the greatest boon a village has ever seen because they use church funds to build schools, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, and heal the sick. Not because they want other people to be better, they're just doing it because it gets them lots of attention and praise, they're doing it for the posh lifestyle, or because it puts them in a position of power and authority.
Just because they do it for selfish reasons doesn't make them bad, but it can make them Evil.
An Evil cleric who isn't hurting innocent people should not be a problem. An evil cleric raising undead from guilty parties or mindless animals should not be a problem either. If the evil cleric starts messing with innocent people, raising Grandma as a zombie and walking around town with her while her grandkids are crying, that would be a problem.
There are ways to do it right. And any Paladin player that immediately jumps to "They cast an evil spell, kill them!" is the problem, not the Evil character.
A paladin will kill. A sword is a weapon with no purpose other than to maim and kill, it has no "good" reason to exist, but it is still seen as just a tool. Same goes for spellcasting, what you do with a spell is more important than the descriptor on it. Inflict Wounds might be "evil", but its no more evil than hacking someone in half with a greatsword. Paladin generally doesn't care if you carve up a dragon and wear it's skin around, despite the fact it was a sentient being, so obviously its "okay" to desecrate the body of a sentient being under certain circumstances.
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Only catch is you need mature players who are capable of actually understanding character motivations and roleplaying beyond just taking "Stereotype Race + Stereotype Class = AWESOME CHARACTER!".
I don't know, the two players in question could be Steven King level writers, or they could be a couple of 12 year olds that still think Teen Titans Go! is a good show.
Point is that it can be done, and it can be done well. And honestly, if it falls apart, I blame the Paladin more than I do the evil character.
If you can't play a Paladin in a mature fashion, then you shouldn't be playing one at all IMO because it utterly dictates how everybody else has to play around you if you go stereotypical, and thats just a dick move from the start.
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Are you ignoring the line:Actually:
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
It is not in the Pathfinder Paladin's code of conduct that she cannot party with an evil character, and it goes out of it's way to say she is allowed to do so as long as it serves a greater good (like defeating an even greater evil).
Aka, as long as the Paladin player isn't playing Lawful Stupid, then it can be made to work.
Try reading the Coldfire trilogy by C.S. Friedman for what I consider *THE* story about a paladin and an evil character (a vampire) that work together and become friends and companions.
Basically, it boils down to "I won't flaunt what I do in your face as long as you don't preach in mine".
While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.
Avoid means to go out the way to NOT do it. You might be able to get by with the greater good but the moment that ends the party must split.
We're all on board, I'm not hiding it from the player, I'm hiding it from the character.
2 Flaws here....1 If the character does find out...2 the pladin player keeping Player and Character knowledge seperate. Some can not and the moment one of these 2 conditions happens its going to cause so many problems.
But I'm pretty done here...it seems your unwilling to listen to the reason of MANY veteran players and DMs. A person with that mindset needs to make their own mistakes and learn the hard way.
Let me re-iterate and clarify.
We're all on board, I'm not hiding it from the player, I'm hiding it from the character.
I did have my character designed first, I'm looking for ways for both of us to have fun with an interesting set of circumstances.
Ah, good. I'd talk with the GM about a feat to reduce your Cleric aura to a regular aura (or maybe a trait with a catch, like -1 CL to Evil spells), giving you until 5th before he begins detecting you. Something custom will probably work, since Paizo doesn't have anything.
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A paladin will kill. A sword is a weapon with no purpose other than to maim and kill, it has no "good" reason to exist, but it is still seen as just a tool. Same goes for spellcasting, what you do with a spell is more important than the descriptor on it. Inflict Wounds might be "evil", but its no more evil than hacking someone in half with a greatsword.
I mostly agree with your post - however I'm going to quibble a bit here. The implication of [evil] spells is that it's corrupting to the caster, and perhaps to those around it. (dark-side style)
Now - there are no actual mechanics for it, and it's really a world-building issue which could easily be ignored (seems to be in Eberron). But by default, it seems to be the game's intention.
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But I'm pretty done here...it seems your unwilling to listen to the reason of MANY veteran players and DMs. A person with that mindset needs to make their own mistakes and learn the hard way.
Guy asked for advice on how to do it, not if he should do it. You're not his DM, you're not his parents. Either help with his request, or move on to another thread. There is nothing constructive to be gained from saying "You're a dick for trying, don't do it!".
Let me re-iterate and clarify.
We're all on board, I'm not hiding it from the player, I'm hiding it from the character.
I did have my character designed first, I'm looking for ways for both of us to have fun with an interesting set of circumstances.
Alright, hopefully people will see this and won't drag the thread into another stupid alignment debate about how all players who don't play TN are jerks who need to leave the hobby.
As long as both players are on board with it, there's no need for the alarmist tone some posters are striking. Seriously. What is up with this reactionary nonsense? What do they think is going to happen? Guys. Everybody is on board. This isn't going to destroy the group. Worst case scenario is that someone turns into an NPC. The potential rewards far outweigh the potential losses.
Anyways, your best bet is probably to collaborate with the player. CE halfling ranger Belkar Bitterleaf was able to hide his alignment from the paladin Miko Miyazaki by claiming that lead sheets were a part of his cultural journey into manhood. As Miko knew little about halflings, she was forced to tolerate this. For a time.
You can do the same thing. Talk to the player about potential weak spots their paladin might have. Is the paladin exceedingly polite? They might be persuaded not to detect evil on their compatriots simply for the lack of trust it shows.
Try buying cheap scrolls of undetectable alignment. It lasts 24 hours, which is plenty of time. You could even pay a local caster to cast it on you before the first meeting. Maybe your PC hears about the paladin, learns they're considered a real hardass, and decides to buy a short-term alignment concealer. Paladins don't generally bother detecting more than once on someone. After the first meeting, you just have to recognize when the paladin is about to detect. Maybe make a big stink after the first time about the lack of trust (this would make them suspicious, but you won't detect as evil, which mitigates it).
That said, I have a question about the player. They might be in on it, but do you have any concerns? Are they as dedicated to keeping the party intact as you are, or is there a chance they'll be immature about it and/or try to win?
Inflict Light Wounds is not [evil], by the way.
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But I'm pretty done here...it seems your unwilling to listen to the reason of MANY veteran players and DMs. A person with that mindset needs to make their own mistakes and learn the hard way.
This feels like one of those posts where the OP knows he's on a wrong track but wants justification for being on that track.
In his defense, it seems the other player knew of this evil cleric concept and decided to make his paladin in spite of that, so probably the other player is as much or more at fault here.
I wonder, is the whole group evil (or at least neutral) so this cleric fits right in (except for the paladin), or is it a generally good group, heading out on a typical save-the-world good campaign, where this evil cleric son't fit in at all?
If it's an evil group, then the OP has done nothing wrong. But maybe he should have formulated his first post to better clarify that point - knowing his evil cleric is in an all evil group on an evil campaign but some dorky player created a LG paladin, well, that's a whole different discussion than the one we're having: the paladin's player would be fully in the wrong, not the OP.
But if it's a good group in a good campaign and he made this evil cleric, then he's still creating a problem. And the player of the paladin simply picked a class that fits the group, which isn't wrong despite the evil cleric sticking out like a broken evil thumb.
Let me re-iterate and clarify.
We're all on board, I'm not hiding it from the player, I'm hiding it from the character.
I did have my character designed first, I'm looking for ways for both of us to have fun with an interesting set of circumstances.
Ask the GM to change mechanics.
I would recommend something like the "Removing Alignment" section in Pathfinder Unchained. You have your shades of gray morality without the paladin being completely required to play dumb.
Because you will be doing evil stuff and no matter your bluff bonus, you are rolling a d20 against another d20 repeatedly until they roll high and you roll low. If this was a session I could suggest it but for a campaign it will fail unless the rules are handwaved.
Buy a wand of undetectable alignment as soon as possible. Maybe two. As for the undead minions, depending on what the paladin is like (consult the player), you might be able to persuade them that they're just tools for a greater good. Or, better yet, that they're goodly spirits given undying form! Channel some Eberron-style "good undead/Dia De Los Muertos" vibes when you explain them to the paladin. If the paladin doesn't have Knowledge (religion) trained, that seems likely.
See if you can form attachments with other party members. They can help you.
Okay, I'm done multiposting for a while.
A paladin will kill. A sword is a weapon with no purpose other than to maim and kill, it has no "good" reason to exist, but it is still seen as just a tool. Same goes for spellcasting, what you do with a spell is more important than the descriptor on it. Inflict Wounds might be "evil", but its no more evil than hacking someone in half with a greatsword.I mostly agree with your post - however I'm going to quibble a bit here. The implication of [evil] spells is that it's corrupting to the caster, and perhaps to those around it. (dark-side style)
Now - there are no actual mechanics for it, and it's really a world-building issue which could easily be ignored (seems to be in Eberron). But by default, it seems to be the game's intention.
Or it simply represents the general view of the Good characters in the world. With no mechanics to back it up, there is no "physical law" that states casting evil spells makes a person evil (and for the rare ones that there are, it is specifically spelled out).
If I were playing the evil character, I would make that a talking point. That the "evil" spells aren't soul corrupting, they are just more prone to abuse by unscrupulous people and have gotten a bad rap.
I'd bring up the idea that if "Evil" spells corrupted you, then "Good" aligned spells also change your personality, making them just as bad for destroying who you are and replacing it with something else.
That spells are tools. Wielding a hoe to till a garden doesn't make you a better person, wielding a sword to kill someone doesn't make you a worse person. You can grow poison with the hoe, and you can strike down murderers with the sword, its what you do with your power that makes you good or bad.
Ooh, thats a good analogy to use on the Paladin actually. If your evil spells make you more evil, then his sword must make him more evil as well. It is a tool for killing, and there is always the temptation there to use the sword and violence to solve a problem when it isn't absolutely required. Having a sword only serves as a temptation to use it.
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Worst case scenario is that someone turns into an NPC. The potential rewards far outweigh the potential losses.
I disagree.
I get into character. I invent backstory, current story, and planned future story. I invent a personality full of motivations and ideals and dreams. I LIKE my characters (even those who are generally unlikeable). My characters are not disposable.
I don't want to invest in a character for 5 levels or 10 levels only to turn him into a NPC because we can't resolve in-character differences. For me, that "loss" far outweighs any rewards I've had up to that point.
Further, I like to play in groups where other players LIKE their characters too, and I'd feel like total crap if one of their invested PCs turned into a NPC because my character couldn't get along with him.
This is 100x more true when it all could be resolved at character generation by seeing the problem coming and avoiding it altogether.
My usual avoidance is "Yeah, this will be a problem. I really wanted to play my character, but I see the rest of the group is leaning a different way, so I'll do something else - but this gives me bargaining power when we start our next campaign..." or the alternative "Yeah, this will be a problem. I see that the rest of the group is making characters similar to mine but Dave, your character isn't a good fit for this group. Would you be willing to play a better fitting character and then YOU get bargaining power when we start our next campaign?"
That's far preferable to losing a character I've invested in.
But yes, I know, some players change character more often than they change shirts - I've played with them. They're fine with resolving future conflict by retiring their PC and creating a new one. I'm just saying that not everyone plays this way.
As long as both players (and probably the GM) try to make it work, it should be possible. Even if it means bending rules.
That said, there is another mechanical solution than infiltrator inquisitor. Tieflings can get a variant ability from a long list, and number 70 is:
You are aware of and can choose the result of any attempt to detect your alignment.
Not it doesn't just hide alignment. Everytime the paladin tries detect evil, you could present a different non-evil alignment, and sow doubt in his abilities, faithfulness - and his god's power...
It still needs some GM support - usually you can't just pick your tiefling variant ability and it's debatable whether it also masks the cleric aura.
Aww, I still wait for my chance to drive a paladin insane in an actual group. But some day... And such threads help to bridge the time...
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Not it doesn't just hide alignment. Everytime the paladin tries detect evil, you could present a different non-evil alignment, and sow doubt in his abilities, faithfulness - and his god's power...
Won't actually work, since the paladin would detect Not Evil everytime, regardless of what non-Evil alignment you chose.
Who is your deity?
I believe there is a trait which allows you to treat Asmodeus as LN rather than LE, which opens up the possibility of running with him as your deity. You would detect as Lawful, and could even make yourself TN for all the cleric feats that require you to be.
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Idea #1, play a sibbling of the paladin (ala Caramon/Raistlin dynamic)
Idea #2, is there a god that allows paladins and evil clerics? since you would be of the same religion there must be a church approved way for him to tolerate it.
#1 would still cause the paladin player to eventually fall and be forced to retrain. It doesn't wreck the party, but it does interrupt the flow of the game at some point until that little side-story is resolved. Usable idea, but not perfect.
#2 is the better suggestion if playing a pre-made, so as to avoid disturbing the story too much. There *has* to be a LN god that both sponsors paladins and is okay with undead. I noticed Anubis is LN and has the death domain, but not much more definition beyond that. It's a stretch to say he would sponsor paladins, but maybe not much of one.
I may be biased towards #2 since it's basically what I suggested before ;)
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I believe Order of the Stick has already definitively answered this.