the thing is that instead of "you hit level 12 you can cast wish now" it would give black and white rules for a gm to decide how to allocate spells. Then it's not house ruling now it's an actual rule that you don't just know it.
If you go is like " pow you know it" then that's a house rule now not a core mechanic.
I think we all know that if something is a rule of the game then it's not a houserule.... That doesn't change the fact that it's just annoying then and forces the game to turn into "Instead of our normal plots we are searching for spells for our caster."
lv8 = 30hp?
6 +7*4=34 + fcb=42+con 14 = 58+false life = 66+1d10
even at 58hp 30 isn't the average health of a wizard.
That is correct for players, NPCs don't get max at first level, the average on a d6 is 3.5 and I can count on one hand the number of NPC wizards I've seen with 14 con. Also false life isn't a given. I see necromancy taken often as a opposition school particularly as there are a lot of saving throws that target Fort in other more useful school.
Just some thoughts. I would say 36 is a more appropriate hp for an NPC. More if he takes the favoured class bonus. Still one crit takes him out of the game, even with 44 hp.
I think we all know that if something is a rule of the game then it's not a houserule.... That doesn't change the fact that it's just annoying then and forces the game to turn into "Instead of our normal plots we are searching for spells for our caster."the thing is that instead of "you hit level 12 you can cast wish now" it would give black and white rules for a gm to decide how to allocate spells. Then it's not house ruling now it's an actual rule that you don't just know it.
If you go is like " pow you know it" then that's a house rule now not a core mechanic.
So your down time is spent acquiring spells instead of pulling the out of your arse? Doesn't seem like much of a down side to me.
So your down time is spent squiring spells instead of pulling the out of your arse? Doesn't seem like much of a down side to me.
Not downtime, "Instead of our normal plots".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
lv8 = 30hp?
6 +7*4=34 + fcb=42+con 14 = 58+false life = 66+1d10
even at 58hp 30 isn't the average health of a wizard.That is correct for players, NPCs don't get max at first level, the average on a d6 is 3.5 and I can count on one hand the number of NPC wizards I've seen with 14 con. Also false life isn't a given. I see necromancy taken often as a opposition school particularly as there are a lot of saving throws that target Fort in other more useful school.
Just some thoughts. I would say 36 is a more appropriate hp for an NPC. More if he takes the favoured class bonus. Still one crit takes him out of the game, even with 44 hp.
Err, NPCs do get max HP first level, though only if they take a PC class on the first level.
|
This doesn't make any sense. How can a 12th level Monk have only 10AC?
Please, give me more information because this doesn't convince me paper mages aren't fragile, this only makes me think there is something you aren't telling me.
Your story does not check out.
That's what the player told me. Being that we were in the middle of a special, I didn't take the time to audit his character. Suffice to say that we ran it that way, that anything over 10 hit him, and I didn't manage to kill him. Imagine putting that on a wizard, who can have more defenses.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's what the player told me. Being that we were in the middle of a special, I didn't take the time to audit his character. Suffice to say that we ran it that way, that anything over 10 hit him, and I didn't manage to kill him. Imagine putting that on a wizard, who can have more defenses.This doesn't make any sense. How can a 12th level Monk have only 10AC?
Please, give me more information because this doesn't convince me paper mages aren't fragile, this only makes me think there is something you aren't telling me.
Your story does not check out.
Ring of blink, lightning stance, and potion of mirrior image would make him near invulnerable against melee
Yes, and I did them for you. One single dire lion can out damage a CR 7 fighter. Two dire lions can outdamage a CR 9 fighter. And the spell gives you, on average, three lions.Wait, maybe I'm just dumb but let me ask, how do you get 2 or 3 dire lions from one casting of Summon Monster V? A caster gets Summon V at 9th level right? And we established that the fighter presented is under-represented for a CR 9 fighter right?
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought the dire lion was on the SM IV list, so you got 1d3+1 of them on SM V. My mistake.
Err, NPCs do get max HP first level, though only if they take a PC class on the first level.
Good call, just seen FAQ
|
That's what the player told me. Being that we were in the middle of a special, I didn't take the time to audit his character. Suffice to say that we ran it that way, that anything over 10 hit him, and I didn't manage to kill him. Imagine putting that on a wizard, who can have more defenses.This doesn't make any sense. How can a 12th level Monk have only 10AC?
Please, give me more information because this doesn't convince me paper mages aren't fragile, this only makes me think there is something you aren't telling me.
Your story does not check out.
Dump Dex, pump STR and Con, depending on other factors of the build he might not even need Wis.
I played a tiefling ninja with an AC of like 14 at 11th level that worked under similar principles; I realized that to be able to use my kusari-gama for combat maneuvers effectively like I wanted to, I needed to jack my Strength up as high as I could, and a little number crunching led me to the realization that investing in my Cha instead of my Dex so I had more uses of Shadow Clone, Vanishing Trick, and Smoke Bombs was ultimately going to be a better defensive route than trying to sustain an AC that was always going to be mediocre anyways. My ninja was typically the healthiest member of the party after most fights, despite frequently getting stuck behind or in the middle of enemy lines.
What kind of point buy is wizard getting Con14 along with all the other things people are talking about like super high dex to beat any initiative, non-negative strength to be good for melee attack, good wisdom for saves and perception and also charisma to actually use charm person?lv8 = 30hp?
6 +7*4=34 + fcb=42+con 14 = 58+false life = 66+1d10
even at 58hp 30 isn't the average health of a wizard.
Wizard can beat everyone at initiative just fine with a 12 dexterity. You're already getting +8 at level 1 from the familiar and Improved Initiative. Reactionary gives another +2 because you don't really need traits for anything else, and then of course the Divination school means you never lose initiative ever.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've got a wizard with +14 initiative at level 4 as a transmuter.
She's as papery as they come but between mirror image, mage armor, and intelligent use of her battlefield control I don't believe she's been hit in all the scenarios I've had her in.
High initiative is actually fairly easy to get even if you tank your dex to 7.
The thing to understand when you make silly paper mage statements is that what makes caster's strong is that they do not dally in the realm of numbers, where martial's can at least step up to the plate. They bypass it to the higher tiers of positioning and actions. They annihilate your action economy, they make your positioning meaningless. What good are high attack and damage rolls if the ability to roll them never presents itself?
That's just talking wizards. Divine casters have other tricks up their sleeves.
I'm not wasting too much time on this. There's far too much material out there that it's getting climate change denier level.
Clearly the solution to this is to not allow casters to use spells on themselves unless the target is (You.)
Disclaimer: This is a horrible idea, do not do that.
|
Honestly, whoever decided that the Pit spells need to be impossible for most CR-appropriate creatures to get out of really needs to be made to sit in the corner and think about what they've done.
Actually, it's not quite as bad as portrayed. Remember that you get -10 DC if you can brace against both walls (ie: are large sized) and -5 just by standing in a corner.
Golems are still utterly screwed by level appropriate pits, but fewer other things are.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, whoever decided that the Pit spells need to be impossible for most CR-appropriate creatures to get out of really needs to be made to sit in the corner and think about what they've done.Actually, it's not quite as bad as portrayed. Remember that you get -10 DC if you can brace against both walls (ie: are large sized) and -5 just by standing in a corner.
Golems are still utterly screwed by level appropriate pits, but fewer other things are.
Basically any humanoid has the same issues; it's incredibly rare to see an NPC statted out with a bunch of ranks in Climb. I was at a mid-level PFS game that was effectively solo'd by a Summoner who just used Create Pit at the beginning of every fight and had his eidolon with reach clean up the poor saps who couldn't get out of the pit on a 20 (according to the GM).
He was a huge prick about it, too. I'm pretty sure that guy is at least partially responsible for my inability to ignore the disparity because he was just such an a*~*+~+ about how strong his character was, ugh.
|
|
Basically any humanoid has the same issues; it's incredibly rare to see an NPC statted out with a bunch of ranks in Climb. I was at a mid-level PFS game that was effectively solo'd by a Summoner who just used Create Pit at the beginning of every fight and had his eidolon with reach clean up the poor saps who couldn't get out of the pit on a 20 (according to the GM).
He was a huge prick about it, too. I'm pretty sure that guy is at least partially responsible for my inability to ignore the disparity because he was just such an a!@+$!! about how strong his character was, ugh.
I said 'fewer', not none. anyone with flight or teleportation is fine, for example.
And yeah, it's definitely an issue. I still remember the game I played a Synthesist (pre-Unchained) Summoner...the one time my Str 7, Dex 7 guy was caught without his Eidolon-suit he just used Create Pit to annihilate several Dire Bears anyway.
I honestly still feel a little bad about playing that character...though there weren't any non-casters in the party, and they were all pretty optimized, so not all that bad. I was trying it out to see how broken it was. It was pretty damn broken.
|
My take on the issue is as follows:You seem to be missing one of the very major components of the issue. That martials can only fight, while casters can fight, infiltrate, teleport, make minions, fly, remove status afflictions, get perfect information, become undetectable, raise people from the dead, mind-control people, alter landscapes, etc.
It's not only a combat issue, it's the issue of All martials can do is stab and casters can do Everything. There is more to pathfinder than combat, but that's the only part of the game some classes are able to play in.
You know, I've made plenty of martial types who can do more then fight. Maybe it's just me. Maybe the majority of people can't wrap their mind around the idea. But I do like giving a decent Int score (12 to 14) to martial type characters (or anyone with low skill points). I'm also perfectly willing to use the +1 skill point favored class bonus instead of +1 Hit Point.
Then again, I've seen so many people make a caster who's so focused on Every Single Knowledge Skill that they ignore things like Perception, spellcraft, UMD, and other useful skills.
Yes, many people advocate fighters dumping Int since you always get 1 skill point (2 if human) and that's all a fighter 'needs'.
By the way, about the claim a martial can deal 100+ damage every round. Outside of critical hits, how the heck are you getting that number? Assuming 20 Str base, power attack, improved vital strike, all level up points going into Str, and a +6 Str belt where are you getting the extra 50+ damage each round?
Yeah, crits can easily clear 100 damage with the right build. But even a weapon that's critting on 15-20 wont crit every single time.
You know, I've made plenty of martial types who can do more then fight. Maybe it's just me. Maybe the majority of people can't wrap their mind around the idea. But I do like giving a decent Int score (12 to 14) to martial type characters (or anyone with low skill points). I'm also perfectly willing to use the +1 skill point favored class bonus instead of +1 Hit Point.
Then again, I've seen so many people make a caster who's so focused on Every Single Knowledge Skill that they ignore things like Perception, spellcraft, UMD, and other useful skills.
Yes, many people advocate fighters dumping Int since you always get 1 skill point (2 if human) and that's all a fighter 'needs'.
Having 2-4 skill points per level is not enough to actually be good at things enough that it isn't pointless to do them since the skill-monkey of the group will have those skills, and be able to get bonuses on them. There is only really one martial that does skills well and thats slayer. And even then, spells surpass skills easily.
Does that spell not require attack rolls?
Ranged touch attacks, so they basically always hit.
|
|
Also, looking at the ungodly number of feats/items you piled into that one spell, does the martial get to go similarly expenditure happy?
8 Feats and 30k in items? Sure. Why not?
Though I wouldn't exactly call that 'expenditure happy' for 15th level. I mean...as a Wizard, you've got 11 Feats at that point, and what else are you spending them on? Item Creation? You surely don't need more than a couple of those. Discoveries? You can't have more than 3. And 30k is a drop in the bucket at that level.
What's the wizards DPR at level 14?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
To say Fighters are better on the frontline than a Druid... Is a Falsehood.
Druids even in wild-shape are not as good on the front line as fighters. Natural attacks and natural armour cannot match proficiency and high movement in proper armour and weapons like Lucerne Hammer or Greataxe.
I am now convinced you have never seen a decent druid played or even a bad one whose read through the Polymorphamory.
So in your opinion, martials are better combatants than casters because caster make them magical weapon and armor, and then put spells in their magical weapons and armor?
And seriously, if you think that a fighter's stand-still-full-attack is better than druid's dire-tiger-pounce-full-attack, you still have a lot to see in PF.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Druids, summoners, clerics, alchemists, maguses, hunters, and what not are all terrible fighters.
They are simply better at actual fighting. And pretty much everything else.