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Floating Disk must be in contact with the caster to move.
The disk floats approximately 3 feet above the ground at all times and remains level. It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round.As a druid player, I would eat a AoO happily to land a full attack with grab attack. Suddenly the fighter's weapon is useless. If I couldn't afford the hit I would cast a spell like Ash Storm or Stone Call.
Um... no. Where does it say that? It says you can move it about within the range of the spell (25+5/level). If it HAS to move with the caster, why wouldn't the range be 5'? Still, using this spell to give the fighter pounce is a neat idea, albeit doesn't really do much about the whole C/MD thing, as Lemmy mentioned.
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-Reach weapons
-Spell storing weapons
-Switch hitting ranged attacks (look at all the possible thrown weapons including alchemical and minor magic)
-Armour benefits with Fighter
-Viability at every level of play
-Ability to conveniently use potions
-To talk to other players on the table without needing either a feat or burning a use/day of Wildshape
-Utilise activated magic items without needing a Mythic Feat
-Just having enough freaking feats
-Special material metals for armour
Yes, yes I love playing Clerics over druids.
You do realize hitting with an AoO doesnt stop someones movement right?Not regular movement, but a Pounce is a Charge.
GM's are quite happy to rule that a spear in the face rather counts as something that "hinders" movement.
"The GM can change the rules, so this ability is useless."
I really should make a bingo card about the most commonly used non-arguments in C/MD threads...
BTW, Large animals don't have to worry about spears, since they have just as much reach.
BTW, Large animals don't have to worry about spears, since they have just as much reach.
Certain large animals like horses and tigers don't have reach.
BTW, Large animals don't have to worry about spears, since they have just as much reach.Certain large animals like horses and tigers don't have reach.
Indeed... I stand corrected.
-Reach weapons
Many wildshape forms have reach so how is this a problem?
-Spell storing weapon
Wouldn't an Amulet of Mighty Fists allow Spellstoring for a Wild Shaped Druid?
-Switch hitting ranged attacks (look at all the possible thrown weapons including alchemical and minor magic)
Druids have lots of spells that allow ranged attacks and spells that lock down enemies so ranged attacks aren't even needed
-Armour benefits with Fighter
Armour with the Wild special ability means they get something better!
-Viability at every level of play
The druid can be viable at pretty much any level. The fighter suffers from this drastically more at higher level play when compared to casters.
-Ability to conveniently use potions
This isn't much of an issue since druids have their own spells. Fighters are far more reliant on consumables like these.
-To talk to other players on the table without needing either a feat or burning a use/day of Wildshape
Druids aren't as reliant on feats to keep up since they can always fall back to casting spells. Hell, they can even use spells to reduce reliance on feats.
-Utilise activated magic items without needing a Mythic Feat
Who cares? If the druid is going for a primarily melee role there's likely another caster to handle this. If it bothers you that much place the items on the ground before wild shaping and choose a form with hands.
-Just having enough freaking feats
Already Addressed this
-Special material metals for armour
For special materials, which ones are you talking about? If it's mainly mithril then darkleaf and darkwood have similar effects.
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Yes, yes I love playing Clerics over druids.And the goalposts move yet again.
Hardly.
I just cheekily pointed out that everything you said was not an inherent advantage to playing a fighter over a druid, it was merely an inherent advantage over not being wildshaped.
If I don't like those disadvantages I play something else or adapt.
You say you don't see a disaparity while simultaneously remaining ignorant of the actual subject matter. Your best defense against a charging druid is reach.
That's awful. You didn't even bother to start with more potent offensive tactics like archery or simply not being in the charge lane. Those would be my first thoughts long before I tried to defend myself from a rampaging tiger with a pointy stick that would snap the moment it got caught on bone. God, that sounds suicidal even thinking about it.
And in the end, your arguments are old, dry, and incomplete.
Because in the end it doesn't matter if the druid outfights the fighter in raw numbers. What matters is that the same druid wildshaped into a mouse later as he roamed the castle and overheard the concubines talking about how the vizier is a raksasha manipulating the king, or how the same druid warped the halberds of the ignorant guards so they could be safely taken out without killing them, or how the same druid escaped out of the dungeon by distracting the guard with a horde of summoned angelic badgers.
The best defense against a charge is a prepared action to cast a spell that makes difficult terrain or a pit, and that's only if the charger is not flying.
A reach weapon with brace can work if the entire party does it and can lure the enemy into a corridor of death, but that's not always something you can do.
Dont quadrupeds get an additional bonus to acrobatics while jumping?
Also spending a stabdard action to become a fast flying creature may have been a better choice.
At this point Alex is not worth talking to. He refused to even accept the level 8 build challenge and consistently moves goal posts.
In my party with a Hunter, Cleric, Wizard, Bard, and Antipaladin guess who contributed the least?
Well the Bard, but that was because he spent all his feats attempting to make Crossbows work.....
If the Bard didn't suck then it would have been the Antipaladin. Just like the fighter he was durable and killed things, but he may as well have been an NPC due to what he fontributed out of combat.
In combat my Hunter overshadowed him anyway since my spells let me adapt to combat while the Wizard was free to mould the battlefield instead of babysit me.
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My big things with the C/MD thing is really at the end of the day, what matters is luck. Sure, casters have the better tool box, but in the end it all comes down to luck. Thats what this game is, the luck of the dice. Who got the drop on whom from skill checks? The dice really decide that. If it was an even fight, full prep time, intiative can really make the difference. What if the caster keeps rolling low for SR? What if the caster gets grappled before he can act? What if the caster gets invisibility and fly off from quicken in one turn from going first? In the end, luck trumps all. I've seen powerful caster players wreck in one encounter, and then in the next they find themselves in 3-land (the d20 rolls only 3's for like, 5 rolls) and suddenly the useless fighter from the last fight is being begged to rescue him. One pen and paper, and even in practice, the gap in power is there, but the d20 is the ultimate equalizer, no matter how much prep time is given.
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My big things with the C/MD thing is really at the end of the day, what matters is luck. Sure, casters have the better tool box, but in the end it all comes down to luck. Thats what this game is, the luck of the dice. Who got the drop on whom from skill checks? The dice really decide that. If it was an even fight, full prep time, intiative can really make the difference. What if the caster keeps rolling low for SR? What if the caster gets grappled before he can act? What if the caster gets invisibility and fly off from quicken in one turn from going first? In the end, luck trumps all. I've seen powerful caster players wreck in one encounter, and then in the next they find themselves in 3-land (the d20 rolls only 3's for like, 5 rolls) and suddenly the useless fighter from the last fight is being begged to rescue him. One pen and paper, and even in practice, the gap in power is there, but the d20 is the ultimate equalizer, no matter how much prep time is given.
I'd make the argument that the d20 hurts the martial more.
Everything they do requires hitting a target number. Skill checks, attack rolls, combat maneuvers, etc.
Spellcasters have the means to alter or even bypass that luck.
My big things with the C/MD thing is really at the end of the day, what matters is luck. Sure, casters have the better tool box, but in the end it all comes down to luck. Thats what this game is, the luck of the dice. Who got the drop on whom from skill checks? The dice really decide that. If it was an even fight, full prep time, intiative can really make the difference. What if the caster keeps rolling low for SR? What if the caster gets grappled before he can act? What if the caster gets invisibility and fly off from quicken in one turn from going first? In the end, luck trumps all. I've seen powerful caster players wreck in one encounter, and then in the next they find themselves in 3-land (the d20 rolls only 3's for like, 5 rolls) and suddenly the useless fighter from the last fight is being begged to rescue him. One pen and paper, and even in practice, the gap in power is there, but the d20 is the ultimate equalizer, no matter how much prep time is given.
Casters don't rely on dice nearly as much as martials though. A lot of the best spells don't allow a save or still have a pretty debilitating effect even if you do save, and a wizard is going to win initiative even if he rolls a 1 and the fighter rolls a 20.
And then you have stuff like the dual-cursed oracle where if they decide they don't like a roll they can change it.
My big things with the C/MD thing is really at the end of the day, what matters is luck. Sure, casters have the better tool box, but in the end it all comes down to luck. Thats what this game is, the luck of the dice. Who got the drop on whom from skill checks? The dice really decide that. If it was an even fight, full prep time, intiative can really make the difference. What if the caster keeps rolling low for SR? What if the caster gets grappled before he can act? What if the caster gets invisibility and fly off from quicken in one turn from going first? In the end, luck trumps all. I've seen powerful caster players wreck in one encounter, and then in the next they find themselves in 3-land (the d20 rolls only 3's for like, 5 rolls) and suddenly the useless fighter from the last fight is being begged to rescue him. One pen and paper, and even in practice, the gap in power is there, but the d20 is the ultimate equalizer, no matter how much prep time is given.
THIS! THIS! DEAR GODS THIS! Every character can get f!@@ed sideways by the dice (unless you load them or something) which is why I always ask the wizard/sorcerer duo in my party "and what if the dice f@$% you over" during the planning part because you can't predict what the dice are going to come up as. Sure you might know the average but just because that's the average doesn't mean the dice are gonna behave and land on that.
...That said martials are more dice dependent and more likely to fall prey to the dice.
The argument for wizards using buffs is that the buffs go furthest with melee classes.
And melee classes include things other than martials.
Like, the magus, bard, investigator, alchemist, cleric, shaman, oracle, spiritualist, occultist, skalds, warpriests, and mesmerists. All are excellent melee fighters on their own. All can cast at least 6th level spells. Some, like the warpriest and magus, have incredible action economy when spellcasting.
Spellstoring your parties weapons is a great tactic but not one that relies on martials to be effective.
That's the point you're missing.
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@hyper and archno: You guys really need a different avatar. DX
My big things with the C/MD thing is really at the end of the day, what matters is luck. Sure, casters have the better tool box, but in the end it all comes down to luck. Thats what this game is, the luck of the dice. Who got the drop on whom from skill checks? The dice really decide that. If it was an even fight, full prep time, intiative can really make the difference. What if the caster keeps rolling low for SR? What if the caster gets grappled before he can act? What if the caster gets invisibility and fly off from quicken in one turn from going first? In the end, luck trumps all. I've seen powerful caster players wreck in one encounter, and then in the next they find themselves in 3-land (the d20 rolls only 3's for like, 5 rolls) and suddenly the useless fighter from the last fight is being begged to rescue him. One pen and paper, and even in practice, the gap in power is there, but the d20 is the ultimate equalizer, no matter how much prep time is given.I'd make the argument that the d20 hurts the martial more.
Everything they do requires hitting a target number. Skill checks, attack rolls, combat maneuvers, etc.
Spellcasters have the means to alter or even bypass that luck.
Does it though? Sure the wizard can do great damage with fireball...if the target fails its save. Lets not even count evasion. And the wizard needs to get passed SR before the save even counts. And even after all that, fire resist may or may not play a factor.
The wizard has to make concentration checks. Sure casting defensively is pretty match laughable as you climb higher in level, but a fighter or brawler that grapples the wizard and suddenly the d20 is a major hurdle.
Sadly, you know what my problem with this post is: The orignal post only talked about mages being better and everyone here seems to really have the hard on to make it clear that they are. If this being a player on player contest of measuring "you know what" is just a myth, these current posts certainly don't reflect that. I'm saying they are even in terms of luck and STILL rather than agree, you'd rather say: "no, wizards still get it better"
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I still don't even get why one HAS to be better than the other. How does it have to be a "myth" to say this is a team game? It is. Its about the story. This whole thread in and of itself is kind of a way to stir the pot. Wizards can do great and powerful s!~* when their stuff works. Fighters can do some amazing s~&& when their combo's go off. Does it really have to matter which one can do it better?
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@hyper and archno: You guys really need a different avatar. DX
Shoanti women are my aesthetic though. Buff ladies with big hammers warms my poor gay heart.
My big things with the C/MD thing is really at the end of the day, what matters is luck. Sure, casters have the better tool box, but in the end it all comes down to luck. Thats what this game is, the luck of the dice. Who got the drop on whom from skill checks? The dice really decide that. If it was an even fight, full prep time, intiative can really make the difference. What if the caster keeps rolling low for SR? What if the caster gets grappled before he can act? What if the caster gets invisibility and fly off from quicken in one turn from going first? In the end, luck trumps all. I've seen powerful caster players wreck in one encounter, and then in the next they find themselves in 3-land (the d20 rolls only 3's for like, 5 rolls) and suddenly the useless fighter from the last fight is being begged to rescue him. One pen and paper, and even in practice, the gap in power is there, but the d20 is the ultimate equalizer, no matter how much prep time is given.Casters don't rely on dice nearly as much as martials though. A lot of the best spells don't allow a save or still have a pretty debilitating effect even if you do save, and a wizard is going to win initiative even if he rolls a 1 and the fighter rolls a 20.
And then you have stuff like the dual-cursed oracle where if they decide they don't like a roll they can change it.
This I need to know. How does a wizard get a +24 initiative that the fighter can't acquire?