| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sigil is full of portals, its part of the nature of the plane. The Forgotten Realms is full of portals crafted by ancient empires. Several APs i have run have methods of travelling between planes (portals if you like) that don't require someone casting a spell to use.
Having acknowledged there is a C/MD, I throw it back to the people who feel so passionately about it - what is the solution?
Get people to stop shackling maritals to our level 6 maximum expectations, so we can properly buff them to have actually versatility. Why not run up the wall instead of climbing for example? Or steal your opponents luck? Or make yourself less real to the point that you are actually an illusion? Pretty mundane stuff for a level 15+ really.
Considering the only class that is both mundane and not "martial" is the Commoner, I don't know if it's its really that big of a difference.
(Personal puzzlement of mine - surely it should be a mundane/caster disparity not martial/caster disparity?)
I'm imagining that there are some casters (or could eventually be) who are also martial. It seems to me the real issue is between people without magic and people with magic. As opposed to people who cast spells and people who fight.
EDIT: I'm meaning mundane as "not magic" - my point being that martial isn't really the other end of the caster spectrum. (Is it?)
Martial is a better catch-all since it includes Paladins, Rangers, and Bloodragers, who are technically casters but have many of the same problems as pure "mundane" classes, though obviously to a lesser degree.
Sigil is full of portals, its part of the nature of the plane. The Forgotten Realms is full of portals crafted by ancient empires. Several APs i have run have methods of travelling between planes (portals if you like) that don't require someone casting a spell to use.
Having acknowledged there is a C/MD, I throw it back to the people who feel so passionately about it - what is the solution?
From the last page:
To be clear - Jiggy you will see from my early post in this thread that I agree that C/MD exists. Largely due to your arguments. What therefore is the solution / mitigation.Short of a complete system overhaul...not much, really. As far as SOLVING, anyway. Mitigating is best done via gentleman's agreements.
Between making casting more like Psionics (no more Prepared casting, power points, making Powers better requiring higher resource expenditure instead of free scaling, etc.) and giving martials new abilities (at least as much as Path of War provides, though as much as I like that book I'd prefer in a different manner), the gap should be significantly closed.
Mythic provides some of what is needed. Abilities like Seven League Leap as a Teleportation substitute, or things like Aerial Assault (especially with Grapple. RKO OUTTA NO-HWERE) or Juggernaut providing new, thematic combat options. That shouldn't be limited to a ridiculously high powered sub-system.
I'm considering making up a "Mythic without Mythic" system that provides Mythic Ranks, but only with the more options oriented abilities available and none of the raw numbers enhancers, then providing those ranks for free to all martials and 4 level casters (with limited access for 6 level casters).
Once I can look at the Weapon Master's Handbook materials (only some of it seems to be on the SRD right now) I think I'll see about a way to incorporate those options without such heinous Feat investement. Even if it comes down to giving everybody a Feat per level.
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)
It seems like part of the conversation has moved towards martials being denied of the ability to do things outside of combat. The above situation is a good example.
Another examples posted here includes moving hundreds of kilometres in an hour to defeat a villain. Or flying.
I find myself wondering how a martial character could do these sorts of things, and still be considered a martial. It seems like asking for a martial to have these abilities is making them a non-martial.
ie. in order to travel long distances or across planes in a certain amount of time, what powers can you imagine giving a Fighter so this makes sense in your version of a fantasy world, without seeming like they are using magic? "I sweep my sword in a circle and sever a hole between space and time" is just a re-jigged Dimension Door, if you ask me.
When I think about fantasy literature, high-powered martial types usually end up being the heads of armies and major political figures (thinking about LotR and Conan as a start). This is the way they worked in 2nd edition - I believe at 10th level, a Fighter received a keep and followers.
Would it satisfy people if martial types were given rules that gave them land and vassals?
This solution might be putting more in the hands of the DM.
If we're not talking about combat, it seems to me that a basic aspect of fantasy roleplaying is that casters have more flexibility at higher levels. Even D&D 5e, which went a long way towards balancing classes in combat situations, can't get around the fact that a 15th level fighter can't teleport etc. without magic help.
...
The question that arises for me is:
- Would I even -want- to play a fantasy RPG where martials and casters are equal in terms of ability to deal with high-level plot-based problems?
I do think it's possible to balance combat among the classes, and I agree that Pathfinder and all previous iterations of D&D have a problem with this at higher levels.
I'd argue that the best situation would be that martials are -better- in combat than casters, so casters get more attention in other ways. To use the example of travelling to another plane - I'd prefer it if the caster can get you there, but the martials are needed to kick ass once you get there.
Disclaimer - I don't play high-level campaigns much, and as DM I tailor stories so everyone is important, and my players comply by letting everyone shine, so none of these issues have arisen with me.
Fair do's Rynjin - you did make suggestions.
There a lots of mechanics for adding new abilities to martials. Archetypes, feats etc. We can only see how Paizo decides to procede or homebrew your own.
My gut reaction is to be more cautious and control the elements that I see causing the problems, through either adventure writing or when setting up a campaign. That is because I don't really approach things from a game design point of view. I appreciate this won't solve the problem for a lot of people.
I hope people can find some form of resolution in their own way.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a personal distaste for keeps and armies being class features for anyone. This includes Thief/Assassin Guilds and the like. I don't like it because it doesn't fit every character, or probably most characters. Not everyone adventures for fat lootz and conquering the realm. Some people like being alone or have no reason to attract a bunch of followers.
A 5th level Fighter who leads a peasant revolt against the big bad tyrant gets the undying loyalty of some folks, and probably gifts from sympathetic nobles and stuff.
A 5th level Fighter who roams around and kills people for no reason other than pure enjoyment... also get undying loyalty and a keep, because he hit the right level?
It just feels too much like a game thing to me when I'm trying to believe I'm in an actual world. It's enforced flavor. That sort of thing should be earned in-world through the way you interact with NPCs, like Revolutionary Fighter. Instead of a guaranteed step of character advancement, like Murderhobo Fighter.
To say nothing of the fact that there's no reason casters can't attract the same sort of perfect loyal army as a martial.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)It seems like part of the conversation has moved towards martials being denied of the ability to do things outside of combat. The above situation is a good example.
No, the conversation has been primarily about that from page 1, it's literally myth #1!
Myth #1: The Caster-Martial Disparity is primarily a combat issue.
This myth is usually not stated like this, but rather couched in some sort of imperative aimed at the person complaining. Something like, "Just tell your casters to stop optimizing so heavily for combat" or "Remember that the game is about more than just combat". Generally, it's a statement that if the other person and/or their group/GM would just put less emphasis on combat, then the C/MD would more or less disappear. This, in turn, indicates that the speaker believes the C/MD is a combat-oriented complaint.It is certainly true that the C/MD includes combat; however, this is only perhaps 20-30% of what the C/MD is actually talking about. The primary complaints actually center around out-of-combat situations and how the characters are able to interact with the setting and narrative.
For example, where a martial has to make multiple saving throws per day against extreme weather, a simple 1st-level spell completely bypasses that obstacle for 24 hours. A wizard with the 2nd-level spell invisibility active is better at Stealth (even with no ranks) than a rogue with several ranks and a high DEX. The complaint is that for any given non-combat task, the magical solution is typically faster and more likely to succeed than the nonmagical solution (if a nonmagical solution even exists at all), and at a relatively trivial cost compared to what's being accomplished.
Combat is practically an afterthought.
And LotR and Conan are not high level settings. Using the martials in them to set ones expectations for what a high level martial in Pathfinder is capable of is setting yourself up for disappointment. People want to see martials that can actually do impressive feats, like I mentioned above.
If you really want an easy fix to the disparity, ban full bab classes and classes with 3/4 bab and no casting.
Casting is necessary in the standard binary test system of DND. Hitting stuff anyone can do.
I don't think this is a solution, but it certainly removes it from the table.
Trogdar, why punish the people playing rogues, fighters and rangers that don't have any issues with C/MD. Or at least not enought to stop them wanting to play those classes.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 20 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having acknowledged there is a C/MD, I throw it back to the people who feel so passionately about it - what is the solution?
In some sense, you kind of have to start from scratch, at least for planning your changes. There are key decisions you'll have to make at a personal level that will determine what direction(s) you go.
First, you have to recognize that at its core, "fantasy" is a setting/genre where you exceed reality. Maybe a little, maybe a lot; maybe most people, maybe a chosen few. The details vary, but the key difference between fantasy and non-fantasy is that reality is not the upper limit.
From there, you have some choices of preference to make. The first, and most easily overlooked, is this: What is required in order for someone to exceed reality and cross over into the fantastic? Do you have to be touched by the gods? Learn magic? Be a nonhuman creature? Train really really hard? Have nanites in your blood? Get struck by lightning while swimming in radioactive waste?
You don't have to pick just one. But whatever you pick, you've got to commit. Later on down the road, if you find yourself saying something like "A person couldn't do that!" then stop. Stop what you're doing. Ask yourself, "What did I say was necessary to exceed reality? Does this ability come from that thing?" If the ability does indeed come from the thing you said was the gatekeeper of the fantastic, then you have to amend your statement from "A person couldn't do that!" to "A normal person couldn't do that, but a fantasy hero who's done X can do that, and that's what makes him fantastic."
Now that you've picked what it takes to be fantastic (to exceed reality), your next decision is to choose how far you want reality to be exceeded. Do you want to just kind of stretch the edges a bit, with impressive long-jumps or fighting in spite of severe injury? Do you want interplanar travels and direct confrontations with demon lords and gods? Somewhere in between?
That's it for the key choices, so we can start with the implementation. Go through the entire system (classes, spells, feats, even the general combat rules) piece by piece and see how each thing stacks up to the parameters you've set.
It would probably be helpful to make multiple passes. First, look for classes and mechanics that lack the thing that's required to exceed reality. For each thing you find that doesn't meet the criteria for exceeding reality, it needs to conform to these parameters:
• Does not exceed reality.
• Requires little to no investment.
If something fails to conform, you either make adjustments so it does conform, or you throw it out completely.
For your second pass, look at everything that DOES meet your criteria for being fantastic (exceeding reality). For each thing you find that meets the criteria for exceeding reality, it needs to conform to these parameters:
• Exceeds reality.
• Does not exceed the "cap" you set earlier in the process.
• Requires an amount of investment that correlates to how far it exceeds reality, with the weaker things being trivial to pick up "on the side" while things at the upper limit of your fantasy scale would require your whole build to focus on it.
If something fails to conform, you either make adjustments so it does conform, or you throw it out completely.
Note: The above two steps, if followed faithfully, will produce (among other things) a result of every single class having equal access to whatever you decided was necessary to be fantastic. If you get this far and see that this is not the case , go back and make another pass. Repeat as necessary.
Finally, you finish all this by compiling a list of obstacles and challenges that match your "fantasy range" that you established at the beginning. You go through that list and make sure that there are options in place for overcoming those obstacles, possibly creating new content to fill holes. Then, repeat the previous two steps to make sure any new stuff you created complies with your parameters for "fantasy".
When you're finished, you should have a game that's relatively free of C/MD (or other major balance issues). You might also have writer's cramp and a pile of dry, discarded Sharpies. ;)
Hope that helps!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My gut reaction is to be more cautious and control the elements that I see causing the problems, through either adventure writing or when setting up a campaign. That is because I don't really approach things from a game design point of view. I appreciate this won't solve the problem for a lot of people.I hope people can find some form of resolution in their own way.
I would just like to point out that these statements assume the problem of a disparity that has an actual effect on enjoyment of the game.
What you are suggesting Sword, makes it obvious that there is a legitimate problem caused by a disparity in the written features of the game, and the written expectations of the game.
As far as my life experience goes, you have a pretty serious problem when the expectations of the outcome of a game are disparately incongruous with the rules of that same game.
In that line, C/MD then is the mechanism by which we see an inherent flaw in the system itself. The disparity that is really bothersome, is the disparity between what is the expected outcome of the game, and the inability of some features of the game to be able to reasonably achieve that outcome.
It seems apparent that at some point the rules should actually say, in writing, "You will need a character of a full spell casting class in order to fully overcome challenges of a rating of X or higher."
Edit: But that would, of course, be an admission by the people that designed the game, that the classes are not all equal, so it won't happen.
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)It seems like part of the conversation has moved towards martials being denied of the ability to do things outside of combat. The above situation is a good example.
No, the conversation has been primarily about that from page 1, it's literally myth #1!
And LotR and Conan are not high level settings. Using the martials in them to...Myth #1: The Caster-Martial Disparity is primarily a combat issue.
This myth is usually not stated like this, but rather couched in some sort of imperative aimed at the person complaining. Something like, "Just tell your casters to stop optimizing so heavily for combat" or "Remember that the game is about more than just combat". Generally, it's a statement that if the other person and/or their group/GM would just put less emphasis on combat, then the C/MD would more or less disappear. This, in turn, indicates that the speaker believes the C/MD is a combat-oriented complaint.It is certainly true that the C/MD includes combat; however, this is only perhaps 20-30% of what the C/MD is actually talking about. The primary complaints actually center around out-of-combat situations and how the characters are able to interact with the setting and narrative.
For example, where a martial has to make multiple saving throws per day against extreme weather, a simple 1st-level spell completely bypasses that obstacle for 24 hours. A wizard with the 2nd-level spell invisibility active is better at Stealth (even with no ranks) than a rogue with several ranks and a high DEX. The complaint is that for any given non-combat task, the magical solution is typically faster and more likely to succeed than the nonmagical solution (if a nonmagical solution even exists at all), and at a relatively trivial cost compared to what's being accomplished.
Combat is practically an afterthought.
Even in Lord of the Rings, only the wizard can summon the fast travel mount >.>
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even in Lord of the Rings, only the wizard can summon the fast travel mount >.>
And solo a demon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What you are suggesting Sword, makes it obvious that there is a legitimate problem caused by a disparity in the written features of the game, and the written expectations of the game.
I accept there is a disparity. Particularly if we extend Martial/Caster Disparity not just within the party but also to the setting. i.e. Casters set the pace of the game because there a high level wizards in the setting.
Whether this is a problem is entirely subjective. It depends on what you want to get out the game; what your experiences of fantasy are; what you expect your character to be able to do; what your table feels about them as well.
All the points descibed in this thread as far as I can tell, still existed in 3.0 D&D and in AD&D. I can't speak for 1st edition as I came into things at AD&D. It seems to be a feature of the game. The fact that the game is, by any definition of the word, successful suggests it isnt a large enough problem to stop most people playing. It certainly hasn't stopped my enjoyment.
That said I will not claim to have a majority view, because I have no evidence to substantiate that. Neither do I accept that I am a minority. I have not seen any evidence across three editions that martial only characters are going to die out... Indeed Swashbuckler and unchained rogue seems to be the most popular classes in our group.
I dispute the definition of fantasy as needing to exceed reality for all characters within it. There is a sliding scale of fantasy from low magic to high magic that has been acknowledged and supported by the designers. Reality + Magic shouldnt be a dirty word. I can tell I play in a lower magic setting than a lot of you (not low, just lower than appears normal on the boards). As someone raised on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay having casters in the party was in no way taken for granted, neither were frequent acquisition of magic items.
[EDIT] The genre of fantasy has expanded to include anime and comic book tropes, super heroes and unreality. I can see why that would be attractive to people. I find it difficult and don't enjoy playing with other characters that expect to be able to jump over a house. Lucky for me I don't have to, otherwise I would no doubt have to adapt.
Incedentally Gandalf and Galadriel never worried about teleport. They took a boat if they wanted to cross a sea : )
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
People want to see martials that can actually do impressive feats, like I mentioned above.Some do. Not everybody does.
One thing to keep very firmly in mind is that what people want to see varies hugely.
That's quite true, though in my experience the majority of people I've encountered who don't want martials to have nice things are playing casters and want to maintain their superiority. Most people I've met who play martials would love to have a character that isn't obsolete after lvl 6.
I'm sorry those are your experiences HeHateMe. Its a real shame. They certainly aren't universal.
|
That's quite true, though in my experience the majority of people I've encountered who don't want martials to have nice things are playing casters and want to maintain their superiority. Most people I've met who play martials would love to have a character that isn't obsolete after lvl 6.People want to see martials that can actually do impressive feats, like I mentioned above.Some do. Not everybody does.
One thing to keep very firmly in mind is that what people want to see varies hugely.
I'm not at all sure that is true.
Let's step away from Pathfinder for a second and take a game that absolutely revels in the C/MD. Ars Magica. Lots of people prefer playing Companions or even Grogs to the Mages.
And lots of lots of games don't get past level 6 or 8 anyway.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, that had nothing to do with him being a wizard and everything to do with him being a Solar pretending to be a level 5 wizard to watch over the party of an E6 campaign in case a Balor or Dragon showed up.Even in Lord of the Rings, only the wizard can summon the fast travel mount >.>And solo a demon.
Stupid GMPCs.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stupid GMPCs.To be fair, that had nothing to do with him being a wizard and everything to do with him being a Solar pretending to be a level 5 wizard to watch over the party of an E6 campaign in case a Balor or Dragon showed up.Even in Lord of the Rings, only the wizard can summon the fast travel mount >.>And solo a demon.
Lord of the Rings is kind of an example of a Pathfinder game thick with gentlemen's agreements, actually. Middle Earth is an incredibly high-magic setting, but the GM wants to do a low magic gritty E6 campaign. So the person playing a Wizard does pretty much nothing, except when the GM throws a challenge at the party that literally cannot be solved by a level 3 ranger, at which point he solo's the encounter.
All the points described in this thread as far as I can tell, still existed in 3.0 D&D and in AD&D. I can't speak for 1st edition as I came into things at AD&D. It seems to be a feature of the game. The fact that the game is, by any definition of the word, successful suggests it isnt a large enough problem to stop most people playing. It certainly hasn't stopped my enjoyment.
It definitely existed in the game from the beginning. It certainly became more pronounced from 3.x and beyond when spellcasting times mostly got shorter and harder to interrupt.
BTW, most people consider AD&D "first edition", and "original D&D" is sort of a 0th edition which shares more in common with the old Basic/Expert D&D sets than AD&D 1+.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, that had nothing to do with him being a wizard and everything to do with him being a Solar pretending to be a level 5 wizard to watch over the party of an E6 campaign in case a Balor or Dragon showed up.Even in Lord of the Rings, only the wizard can summon the fast travel mount >.>And solo a demon.
But his lie was only convincing because he was pretending to be a caster. If he were pretending to be a martial, the other characters would stop and say "Hey... That old man with a sword is holding back the Balrog... So it can't be all that bad! Let's kill it!"
XD
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Note: Crane Wing was nerfed not because of what it did to PC's, but to NPC's.
Monsters with a primary natural attack, like T-Rexes - you are now invulnerable. In ANY situation where the PC could limit the monster to one attack, he was invulnerable.
NPC's - You are invulnerable to one attack that would otherwise hit. This tends to result in a damage drop of 50% or more in combat. Likewise, if you can limit the NPC to one attack, you are INVULNERABLE.
That's why it was nerfed.
=============
Note: One of the factors to balance caster/martial disparity is the ability of martials to SHUT DOWN THE DISPARITY.
1E did this by giving them the best saves and hit points. Casters using spells against the melee classes were asking to die. The melees would save, get to the wizards, and they'd never get another spell off before dying.
(FR solves this problem in the literature by making the casters VERY high level, and the melees 1/2 the level or less, so they die haplessly).
If martials had the ability to shut down dimensional travel in their area; to eliminate magical flight; to destroy spells launched at them; to interrupt spellcasting EVERY TIME; to notice the unnoticeable, to simply withstand and deny magical attacks - the disparity wouldn't be as bad because when it all came down, the spellcasters would be squishy compared to the martials.
It's how anime tends to handle it. Casters are powerful, but if a melee gets on them, they are finished. Not being able to teleport sucks, yeah; being able to stop the wizard from teleporting/blinking/ddooring/planeshifting? Yeah, that's nice.
Being able to banish some mystically summoned monster with one hit of a sword? Yeah, that'd be nice, too.
Being able to drive your sword through every magical ward and shield protecting a mage and gut him? Yeah, that'd be nice.
Those kinds of things aren't allowed the martial classes, overall, despite the reverse being allowed to the casters AGAINST martial classes.
Meh.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd just like to note that while my post was harsh, it contained no personal attacks. Only criticism of what I see as a bad design policy.
I'd just like to note that while my post was harsh, it contained no personal attacks. Only criticism of what I see as a bad design policy.
I would similarly like to note that my question was in fact a serious question. (Seems odd it was removed.)
|
I know, it's anecdotal, but I wanted to reference something that happened in my last game.
I'm playing a 9th level cleric, and at this particular game our only other caster (an Arcanist) couldn't make it, so I was actually the only full caster (we have a Kineticist themed around healing, and a combat-tricked Occultist, but that's the closest we had). I'm not even themed around spellcasting too heavily (we're playing Mummy's Mask, and I'm an Aasimar focused on positive channeling to harm undead), but I still manage to not only change encounters, but drastically change the way we play the game.
Create Water completely eliminated an important hazard for the setting. I have Nap Stack prepared each day to ensure good rest healing and ability damage recovery if we need it, despite the 1-week cooldown (check it out, it's an AWESOME spell). Encounter-wise, thanks to Blessing of Fervor, I actually had the highest damage output through bonus attacks in the group, all with a single spell, plus I made my allies more accurate and bumped my already awesome AC. When we got to an actual difficult encounter, Wall of Stone locked in our enemy, and I even got to Fabricate a couple of suits of Bulette Full Plate (which kinda freaked the DM out, so I double checked to see if he was okay with it).
In all this time, I never even TOUCHED my other spells for utility purposes, and I finished each day with several leftover spells. Heck, I have so many channels leftover I get to use all those AMAZING channel foci items.
And, despite how awesome my alternate character is (a Gnoll Lore Warden fighter trip/dirty trick master), many of those things would have been completely out of his grasp to do, and I haven't even used Animate Objects yet. >_> Combat is just SO much easier as a full spellcaster, and out of combat stuff is easy, too, thanks to my easy access to light and utility magic. It makes me kinda sad watching the martial characters (though they have fun, so I suppose it really doesn't matter :P).
How to Fix the Disparity
- 1) When making characters, no starting ability scores above 16, or below 10 after racial adjustment.
That fixes many of the problems of class power imbalance, without altering any rule.
- 2) Remove hold person and dominate person from the game. (If you want to keep hold/dominate monster, at least they are higher level spells.)
- 3) 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells take at least a full round action to cast. Optionally, all save or suck/die spells take 1 round to cast. Removing the highest level spells from the game, and using the slots for metamagiced lower level spells (heighten spell feat free?) is a more extreme option.
- 4) Spells with a duration of days/level get changed to hours/level. Some permanent spells might have their duration reduced.
- 5) Remove quicken spell from the game, or make it apply only to spells with a range of personal.
- 6) Remove or rewrite known problems like dazing spell meta-magic, witches slumber hex, and other obviously broken stuff.
- 7)Consider crafted items the same as purchased when determining Wealth By Level. I would also make master craftsman into a more useful feat. To take it a step further, you could make crafted items cost market price to craft.
- 8)It should be noted that many aspects of casters are intended to be limited by the GM. Access to new spells, planar binding/ally, divination magic, etc. are not blank checks or guaranteed success.
- 9)Many intelligent foes will ready actions to disrupt spell casting. While it should be done rarely and only by appropriate foes, things like targeting a casters component pouch, wands, familiar and even spell books are not out of the question.
- 10) Communicate with the players and explain that you don't want a lot of action denial techniques used in the game. RPG-Tag is not a fun way to play. This applies on both sides of the screen. I don't want to consistently take a player out of action with save-or-suck and for similar reasons, I don't want players using those tactics on my named NPC/monsters.
These fixes are largely combat based, although options such as removing the highest level spells would have a substantial effect on other aspects of the game as well. Combat is relatively easy to fix because small numerical tweeks and cutting out a few specifics goes a long way. Narrative power is far more difficult to alter without fairly substantial alterations to the rules. Skills need to do more at mid and high levels. Movement has to be opened up beyond fly and teleport. Martial characters need a system for doing things beyond single target HP damage and CMB checks. I don't know if it could all be done within skills, but even if it could, wizards still have the most points to spend, so additional balance would be needed...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Fergie
I would rather approach it from a different angle. For example:
At every even numbered level a martial character gains any one spell as an extraordinary ability that takes a standard action to activate. The spell may be taken from any spell list but has a maximum level of half the martial's class level. Once a spell is selected it can't be changed. There are no material, somatic or verbal components. No concentration checks are required. Effects cannot be dispelled but they can be countered (e.g haste effect can be countered with a slow spell). The reverse is not true, a fighter with a dispel magic effect can dispel normal spells. Casting stat for the purpose of determining DC can be strength, dexterity or constitution. Caster level is equal to the relevant class level. Spell chosen is subject to GM approval. Using the ability deals 1d6 non lethal damage per spell level to the martial. Any effect that prevents the non-lethal damage also prevents this ability from working, which means martials can't heal themselves. Available only to core races.
@ Fergie
I forgot to mention: I particularly like points 7, 8 and 10 from your list and will likely adopt them for my own games.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
First, you have to recognize that at its core, "fantasy" is a setting/genre where you exceed reality. Maybe a little, maybe a lot; maybe most people, maybe a chosen few. The details vary, but the key difference between fantasy and non-fantasy is that reality is not the upper limit.From there, you have some choices of preference to make. The first, and most easily overlooked, is this: What is required in order for someone to exceed reality and cross over into the fantastic? Do you have to be touched by the gods? Learn magic? Be a nonhuman creature? Train really really hard? Have nanites in your blood? Get struck by lightning while swimming in radioactive waste?
You don't have to pick just one. But whatever you pick, you've got to commit. Later on down the road, if you find yourself saying something like "A person couldn't do that!" then stop. Stop what you're doing. Ask yourself, "What did I say was necessary to exceed reality? Does this ability come from that thing?" If the ability does indeed come from the thing you said was the gatekeeper of the fantastic, then you have to amend your statement from "A person couldn't do that!" to "A normal person couldn't do that, but a fantasy hero who's done X can do that, and that's what makes him fantastic."
Jiggy I think I love you.
This is pretty much the best summary of the "wuxia" issue I've ever read. It deserves a thread all its own, frankly. And that's me talking as the guy what's gotta Index this s&%&!
Even in Lord of the Rings, only the wizard can summon the fast travel mount >.>
Dude let's be real here the wizard guy basically got that horse by annoying the s~&# out of some non-magic dudes. They literally just gave him the horse so he'd get the buck out of their non-magic brony convention and quit bugging them about silly made-up "wars" and "stormclouds".
Also, Gandalf only got that specific horse because he did the equivalent of that one guy you know who goes to an all-you-can-eat-buffet and picks the most expensive item just to get as much bang for his buck as possible.
GM: "Sure, the Rohirrim say you can have a horse."
Player: "I run an Appraise check. Which one is the best?"
GM: "...Well, Shadowfax, but I think they just meant that you'd take a horse and—"
Player: "I TAKE SHADOWFAX HAHA NONE OF YOU SUCKERS CAN STOP ME ON YOUR STUPID INFERIOR SHETLANDS"
GM: "please stop yelling."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Jiggy I think I love you.
He is pretty good.
Also, Gandalf only got that specific horse because he did the equivalent of that one guy you know who goes to an all-you-can-eat-buffet and picks the most expensive item just to get as much bang for his buck as possible.
GM: "Sure, the Rohirrim say you can have a horse."
Player: "I run an Appraise check. Which one is the best?"
GM: "...Well, Shadowfax, but I think they just meant that you'd take a horse and—"
Player: "I TAKE SHADOWFAX HAHA NONE OF YOU SUCKERS CAN STOP ME ON YOUR STUPID INFERIOR SHETLANDS"
GM: "please stop yelling."
This really made me laugh.
How he got the Contingent Raise Dead, nobody will ever know.
Well he IS an aasimar, so early entry mystic theurge cheese is a real possibility.
I would similarly like to note that my question was in fact a serious question. (Seems odd it was removed.)I'd just like to note that while my post was harsh, it contained no personal attacks. Only criticism of what I see as a bad design policy.
Everyone knows remarks critical of Holy Paizo are DoublePlusUnGood.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone knows remarks critical of Holy Paizo are DoublePlusUnGood.I would similarly like to note that my question was in fact a serious question. (Seems odd it was removed.)I'd just like to note that while my post was harsh, it contained no personal attacks. Only criticism of what I see as a bad design policy.
Comments like this really aren't necessary or helpful. To make it absolutely clear: we don't remove posts just because they criticize our design processes, our business, our products, and so on. If you felt this was the case in the past, I apologize, but that's not the stance I'm upholding for my team or the policies that I take a hand in writing, reviewing and approving for our community. If you have further feedback on this, feel free to send it to community@paizo.com so we can avoid derailing the thread with it. Thanks!
Separately, I did some skimming of the past few pages and restored a few things. To clarify on Liz's post: baiting comments aren't OK either. Let's not turn this discussion into a dissection of our errata/FAQ process (that's a line of conversation best left to other threads).
Well he IS an aasimar, so early entry mystic theurge cheese is a real possibility.
How he got the Contingent Raise Dead, nobody will ever know.
Or he's a angel or other outsider (innate cleric spells) with class levels in wizard.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really really wish people would stop using Tolkien as a base for discussion on balancing fantasy games.
I really really wish people would stop using Tolkien as a base for discussion on balancing fantasy games.
I was mostly joking, but it seems like my one-off comment spiraled out of control. Woops.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really really wish people would stop using Tolkien as a base for discussion on balancing fantasy games.I was mostly joking, but it seems like my one-off comment spiraled out of control. Woops.
No worries, just trying to stifle a personal rant.
Design Manager
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really really wish people would stop using Tolkien as a base for discussion on balancing fantasy games.I was mostly joking, but it seems like my one-off comment spiraled out of control. Woops.No worries, just trying to stifle a personal rant.
I actually also used to get really peeved when people pointed to Lord of the Rings when fantasy game balance discussions came up, but I realized that there's actually some relevant discussion to be had there.
One of the major problems is that a lot of people assume Gandalf is a PC, when he's obviously not. He's clearly either a GM PC or a GM's boy/girlfriend PC, which shouldn't ever be considered when discussing balance. Let's look at the facts-
1) Gandalf is clearly a higher level then the rest of the protagonists.
2) Gandalf is supposedly a "wizard", yet he seems to be picking spells and abilities freely from the druid list.
3) Gandalf's backstory is a millenia long, and basically notes that he's part of a cabal of super-powered angels sent to protect the world.
4) Gandalf is never around when his presence would allow the group to trivialize encounters, unless he shows up all deus ex to save the day. When the GM realized that 3 trolls was too much for his low level adventuring group to handle, Gandalf rides in to save the day. When the GM expects goblins or getting lost in the woods to be difficult encounters, Gandalf suddenly gets called away to fight demigods or demons somewhere else.
So really, the lesson Tolkien is trying to teach is that wizards and other powerful spellcasters don't belong in groups of fighters and rogues, unless they're serving as the GM's "hand of god" in the game world, smoothing out his whoopsies and telling the party where to go next before "whooshing" away to tackle a challenge more his speed, like a demigod, demon, or other wizard. Tolkien showed us, before D&D even existed, the pitfalls of martial/caster disparity, by showing us in his work that the moment the story introduction phase ends, the best way to balance the group is to chop them up, and send the rogues on one adventure, the warriors on another, and the wizard/spellcasters on a third, so that everyone can actually have an appropriate adventure for their powers and abilities.
I imagine that a Pathfinder group trying to emulate Lord of the Rings would probably have the spellcasters show up Wednesday for a game, then the rogues could come and play on Friday, and the warriors get together Saturday to decide whether they try to rescue the rogues from their latest predicament or track down the next world-threatening plot hook the wizards dug up but are too busy to address personally. Everyone would regroup every third Sunday to discuss what they'd been up to before the GM separates them back up into their respective groups, occasionally swapping a rogue and warrior between groups so that he can mix some different challenges in for the mundanes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really really wish people would stop using Tolkien as a base for discussion on balancing fantasy games.I was mostly joking, but it seems like my one-off comment spiraled out of control. Woops.No worries, just trying to stifle a personal rant.
I actually also used to get really peeved when people pointed to Lord of the Rings when fantasy game balance discussions came up, but I realized that there's actually some relevant discussion to be had there.
One of the major problems is that a lot of people assume Gandalf is a PC, when he's obviously not. He's clearly either a GM PC or a GM's boy/girlfriend PC, which shouldn't ever be considered when discussing balance. Let's look at the facts-
1) Gandalf is clearly a higher level then the rest of the protagonists.
2) Gandalf is supposedly a "wizard", yet he seems to be picking spells and abilities freely from the druid list.
3) Gandalf's backstory is a millenia long, and basically notes that he's part of a cabal of super-powered angels sent to protect the world.
4) Gandalf is never around when his presence would allow the group to trivialize encounters, unless he shows up all deus ex to save the day. When the GM realized that 3 trolls was too much for his low level adventuring group to handle, Gandalf rides in to save the day. When the GM expects goblins or getting lost in the woods to be difficult encounters, Gandalf suddenly gets called away to fight demigods or demons somewhere else.
So really, the lesson Tolkien is trying to teach is that wizards and other powerful spellcasters don't belong in groups of fighters and rogues, unless they're serving as the GM's "hand of god" in the game world, smoothing out his whoopsies and telling the party where to go next before "whooshing" away to tackle a challenge more his speed, like a demigod, demon, or other wizard. Tolkien showed us, before D&D even existed, the pitfalls of martial/caster disparity, by...
I just despise how it's always mentioned and how it has ubiquitously shaped peoples viewpoint on fantasy to the point where I feel the whole hobby has been shackled into a corner that occasionally manage to get out with gritty pulp settings or post apocalyptic deserts more akin to Cimeria than the Shire.
But I need to stop or I'll never finish.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But if he's a level 11 wizard or level 12 sorcerer with a really good diplomacy score he can summon and bargain with an efreet.I really really wish people would stop using Tolkien as a base for discussion on balancing fantasy games.Do you have a 25000 gp diamond? If not, you can't cast that.
And as everyone knows, only good things can come from bargaining with an efreet.