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The best slinger in the game is still the same: play a fighter with a composite longbow, and convince the DM to let you re-skin the "bow" as a "sling." You're WAY ahead of the halfling who spent two dozen feats on an actual sling.
Then just play what ever and re-skin into what ever.
Also I don't think 1 feat + 1 racial trait is two dozen feats.
A double-slinger with slipslinger style can match a composite bow now. The extra shot from manyshot can be matched by using two-weapon fighting.
How many extra feats does that cost you? That the archer could be spending on clustered shots and deadly aim and so on?
Also I don't think 1 feat + 1 racial trait is two dozen feats.
Count all the feats it takes just to get any sling weapon equal in stats (damage, range, crits) to a bow.
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Two weapon fighting alone will match manyshot with two slings. You are only spending a racial trait for the ability to reload as a free action. The style feat is optional for using slings, its only necessary if you wanted to use a double sling or staff sling. It does give some solid bonuses to slings though.
But the base sling is still only 1d4/20/x2, with a much lower range to boot. To catch up with the mighty composite longbow's base stats, you'd need (at least) improved critical, weapon specialization, and far shot. And if you're not a halfling, add a couple extra feats instead of that one trait.
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Count all the feats it takes just to get any sling weapon equal in stats (damage, range, crits) to a bow.
Your still missing the Entire point my my statement:
If a Player wants to be on par with the archer they should be an archer.
Archery is still one of the Highest DPR builds out there. And a Halfling Wielding a Sling or Slingstaff will not match the damage output of a dedicated Archer.
But this does not mean the Slingstaff is that bad of a weapon anymore thanks to the New feat. It just means it became VIABLE as a combat style. Before when no sling feats/traits worked on a slingstaff the weapon was pretty useless and not that viable as a solid hammer role in a group. That 1 feat opened the weapon and gave Halflings something to cheer about. Not an Option to try and surpass archery.
Let me throw in a Dedicated archer is only going to be shooting...a Slingstaff offers melee damage in a switch hitting style of combat. A lot of veteran players may be tired of the same archer style of play.
Your still missing the Entire point my my statement:
If a Player wants to be on par with the archer they should be an archer.
1. "You're," not "your."
2. Ah, okay, you're one of those "you should totally punish people for flavor because it makes them better role-players" types.a Slingstaff offers melee damage in a switch hitting style of combat.
So does a bow and a club, only better.
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Your still missing the Entire point my my statement:
If a Player wants to be on par with the archer they should be an archer.1. "You're," not "your."
2. Ah, okay, you're one of those "you should totally punish people for flavor because it makes them better role-players" types.a Slingstaff offers melee damage in a switch hitting style of combat.So does a bow and a club, only better.
Ahhh your one of those ad hominem red herrings that plagues the internet.
and your Idea a Bow + Club does it better means your spreading your gold between 2 weapons and your need for quickdraw puts just as much a feat tax as a Halfling with Slipslinger Style. So better...IDK about that considering they are taking identical feats after the 1 feat tax.
Ah, okay, you're one of those "you should totally punish people for flavor because it makes them better role-players" types.
I'm a person who asks other players play by the rules to the best of their abilities.
But I'm Done with this Red Herring anyways. The stank of Fish reeks from your posts anyways. If it stinks like a bad fish, it prolly is bad for you anyways.
A double-slinger with slipslinger style can match a composite bow now. The extra shot from manyshot can be matched by using two-weapon fighting.
Indeed, which he should have noted from my build on the previous page.
Yeah, I think this is really all that was needed:
People seem to be pretty happy with the Halfling sling staff, but disappointed by the fact that it couldn't be used with warslinger racial trait.Slipslinger Style (Combat, Style)
You can fire all manner of slings and sling-like weapons.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (sling) or weapon training
(thrown) class feature, warslinger racial traitARG.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls made with
all types of slings, and don’t provoke attacks of opportunity
when reloading a sling. In addition, you treat all ranged
and thrown weapons that have “sling” in their name as if
they were slings for all feats and class abilities that
require such weapons, as well as the warslinger racial trait.
It wasn't just that it couldn't be used with the racial trait: the problem was that no combination of feats/class features/traits, etc. that would let you reload a sling staff as anything less than a move action. A series of FAQs specifically excluded the sling staff from every single "rapid reload for slings" option available.
Yay! My level 4 Halfling Weapon Master lives!
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A double-slinger with slipslinger style can match a composite bow now. The extra shot from manyshot can be matched by using two-weapon fighting.Indeed, which he should have noted from my build on the previous page.
Sorry Claxton...I've been riding the Sling staff not the Double sling. I should have Stated it like this: "A Sling Staff User can never get Many shot or make up for that loss of 1 extra projectile."
instead of:
A sling-staffer can not get/use Manyshot...this puts them behind and puts Archer damage well out of reach.
Cause apparently it was not clear I was ONLY talking about the sling staff in my statement. And not including Sling or Double Sling.
Yeah, I think this is really all that was needed:
People seem to be pretty happy with the Halfling sling staff, but disappointed by the fact that it couldn't be used with warslinger racial trait.Slipslinger Style (Combat, Style)
You can fire all manner of slings and sling-like weapons.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (sling) or weapon training
(thrown) class feature, warslinger racial traitARG.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls made with
all types of slings, and don’t provoke attacks of opportunity
when reloading a sling. In addition, you treat all ranged
and thrown weapons that have “sling” in their name as if
they were slings for all feats and class abilities that
require such weapons, as well as the warslinger racial trait.It wasn't just that it couldn't be used with the racial trait: the problem was that no combination of feats/class features/traits, etc. that would let you reload a sling staff as anything less than a move action. A series of FAQs specifically excluded the sling staff from every single "rapid reload for slings" option available.
Yay! My level 4 Halfling Weapon Master lives!
And I am with you Gwen...YAY Slingstaff Lives again! =)
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That's fair, though this thread wasn't singly focused on the sling staff but general sling weapons so I think that is why Imbicatus and myself took it that way.
It's also why my initial goal with my build was to try to match an archer in terms of damage.
I'm not sure I care for the follow up feats to slipslinger style. I'm not big on turning cash into expendable ammo. Which makes the ability to use alchemical items as ammo....lackluster to me. There are some interesting possibilities that you could use it for, but I'm not sure I want to take the WBL hit to do it.
That said, I am strongly considering that the next part of my build would be a 1 level dip in Master of Many Styles followed by picking up the Overwatch feat tree.
No longer optimizing for damage, but adding some interesting tactical options to the build.
So nobody sees the potential for unchained rogues there?
Also, combined with the other sling feats, it´s something.
-halfling slinger
-large target
-ark slinger (not sure if that´s the right name)
Hide behind your friends and snipe with ease for up to two times a round^^
stuff
I'm not clear on how Kirth was attacking your person, can you elaborate further?
I think the two of you are, perhaps, just on a different page as far as what weapon choice should mean. I tend to agree with Kirth with regards to weapon choice, if for no other reason than overall capability in combat should probably not be defines solely by weapons. It doesn't seem very heroic.
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stuffI'm not clear on how Kirth was attacking your person, can you elaborate further?
Sure I can:
He is using a Fallacy to try and Dismiss another's argument, not on the merits of the argument, but because of a grammatical error.
1. "You're," not "your."
This is a tough call on whether it is a Red herring or a Ad hominem. Is he trying to distract others from the debate by Dismissing my argument by pointing out my grammatical error? Or is it a passive aggressive or hidden meaning? Something Similar to "Your a dumbass, this is how you english."
Makes it difficult to determine which fallacy or his intent in the statement. Either way it was a way to try and Derail my main train of thought on the subject at hand.
So if what he has to offer is either snarky remarks or distracting/changing topics I can not know...so I just kick the dust from my shoes and be done with him.
I tend to agree with Kirth with regards to weapon choice, if for no other reason than overall capability in combat should probably not be defines solely by weapons. It doesn't seem very heroic.
A sniper is known for what? Being good with a sniper rifle. Seemed to make Chris Kyle a national hero. Same goes for Vasily Zaytsev the Russian sniper who killed estimated 400 people with his sniper rifle. Yes both people's overall capabilities in combat is not limited to a sniper rifle...I'm sure they would be fine with a Assault rifle or pistol....but a good majority of the Legend...the hero....revolved around the weapon of choice.
But you are correct saying we are on different pages....in completely different books, in different classes.
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I'm not clear on how Kirth was attacking your person, can you elaborate further?Well...
2. Ah, okay, you're one of those "you should totally punish people for flavor because it makes them better role-players" types.Is quite clearly addressing the argumenter and not the argument, and given the phrasing of said statement, is pretty abrasive.
This guy gets it.
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Kirth has a bit of a tick with regards to grammar, just check out his Kirthfinder thread. I dont see correcting grammar as any sort of attack or deflection.
As far as the sniper rifle comment goes, I think we are running into definition issues again. When I say hero, I refer to a larger than life person whose exploits are greater than the sum of their parts. I don't consider a sniper a hero, just a killer with a particular talent for long ranged rifles. Also, the idea of a sniper is not something that requires the leveling system at all. A sniper like Chris Kyle would be easily represented by a level one character which is kind of the issue with these sorts of feat heavy weapons. If something takes more than three feats, its basically impossible to accomplish as a human being. There are more than a few examples of really basic things that any schlub off the street could accomplish if they spent a few minutes trying that are just not possible for anything short of a mid level hero. Thats just weird and silly.
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For better or worse, there is a trend when it comes to arguments that are couched in realism. Taking a role play related choice like weapon type and making that choice extra difficult or just untenable in the long run doesnt have any particular mechanical advantage, nor does it improve game balance (if anything, it destroys relative balance).
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When I say hero, I refer to a larger than life person whose exploits are greater than the sum of their parts
Give me examples of people who you believe are heros under that definition.
I don't consider a sniper a hero, just a killer with a particular talent for long ranged rifles.
Russia and the USA would disagree and have awarded them many medals in recognition of their individual Heroism and contribution. But what other skills would a sniper need? Stealth? Disguise? survival? Knowledge of geographic areas? How about endurance? Perception?
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When I say hero, I refer to a larger than life person whose exploits are greater than the sum of their partsGive me examples of people who you believe are heros under that definition.
I don't consider a sniper a hero, just a killer with a particular talent for long ranged rifles.Russia and the USA would disagree and have awarded them many medals in recognition of their individual Heroism and contribution. But what other skills would a sniper need? Stealth? Disguise? survival? Knowledge of geographic areas? How about endurance? Perception?
I dont think the US or Russia would agree with me on more than a few fronts.
A hero like Heracles or Gilgamesh would be classical examples of heroes. They are both more than simply strong or swift, they accomplish things that no human ought to be able.
A hero of the fallen fire fighter ilk are just not going to be something that we should use when we are talking about dungeons and dragons because they just aren't represented in the stories that you tell with this medium.
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When I say hero, I refer to a larger than life person whose exploits are greater than the sum of their partsGive me examples of people who you believe are heros under that definition.
I don't consider a sniper a hero, just a killer with a particular talent for long ranged rifles.Russia and the USA would disagree and have awarded them many medals in recognition of their individual Heroism and contribution. But what other skills would a sniper need? Stealth? Disguise? survival? Knowledge of geographic areas? How about endurance? Perception?
I dont think the US or Russia would agree with me on more than a few fronts.
A hero like Heracles or Gilgamesh would be classical examples of heroes. They are both more than simply strong or swift, they accomplish things that no human ought to be able.
A hero of the fallen fire fighter ilk are just not going to be something that we should use when we are talking about dungeons and dragons because they just aren't represented in the stories that you tell with this medium.
Your Idea of Heroes are Demi-Godes bro...of course they can "they accomplish things that no human ought to be able." Because they are NOT human.
So..
Between 10 November and 17 December 1942, during the Battle of Stalingrad, he killed 225 soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht and other Axis armies, including 11 enemy snipers.
is not enough to be called a hero and is something (as you say) "really basic things that any schlub off the street could accomplish if they spent a few minutes trying"
If I am understanding you right. If you do translate that to pathfinder/dnd (where superhuman is already common) unless they become a God they are not a hero? Cause fighting dragons...well any schelb off the street could do that...(won't be victorious...but can do it)
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What Im actually saying is that if you can, in fact, go toe to toe with a dragon and live, then you should not need large expenditure of resources to do pretty average things. Thats not how it currently works though.
That's fair, though this thread wasn't singly focused on the sling staff but general sling weapons so I think that is why Imbicatus and myself took it that way.
It's also why my initial goal with my build was to try to match an archer in terms of damage.
I'm not sure I care for the follow up feats to slipslinger style. I'm not big on turning cash into expendable ammo. Which makes the ability to use alchemical items as ammo....lackluster to me. There are some interesting possibilities that you could use it for, but I'm not sure I want to take the WBL hit to do it.
That said, I am strongly considering that the next part of my build would be a 1 level dip in Master of Many Styles followed by picking up the Overwatch feat tree.
No longer optimizing for damage, but adding some interesting tactical options to the build.
So adding Energy damage to your sling costs, what, 6000 GP? A flask of acid or a vial of holy water runs you about 10 GP each? You can get 600 pieces of ammo for the same cost. 1200 if you craft them yourself. 2400 if your GM is using the Downtime rules from Ultimate Campaign.
That frees you up to add a DIFFERENT enchantment on your weapon.
So adding Energy damage to your sling costs, what, 6000 GP? A flask of acid or a vial of holy water runs you about 10 GP each? You can get 600 pieces of ammo for the same cost. 1200 if you craft them yourself. 2400 if your GM is using the Downtime rules from Ultimate Campaign.
That frees you up to add a DIFFERENT enchantment on your weapon.
I never add energy enhancements to weapons, it's generally a waste of money in my experience. To many enemies tend to have resist 5 to the energy types which means you only deal the energy damage on lucky rolls. That 6000 gold can be spent on something else.
The damage alchemical items are really a bad investment IMO.Now,if you could use the slipslinger style to use tanglefoot bags or tangleburn bags, that could be worth it. There are decent options to potentially debuff the enemy, especially when I could potentially debuff all the enemies and lock them in place. The fact that it's limited to alchemical splash weapons is pretty disappointing to me.
I have a pair of Deliquescent Gloves on two of my characters, and I rarely run into acid resistant enemies. It happens, but not enough to stop me from buying them. 10 gp (or 3gp) per shot is much cheaper than the gloves.
I've used deliquescent gloves, because they are monetarily efficient because they don't increase the cost of enchanting your weapon further.
You are right that acid resistance is rare, so this is fairly worth while.
Still, I'm a fan of always on effects versus pay per effect.
Halfling Sling Master let you use Manyshot with a sling.
- As one of the only classes it seemse. It is a third-party, I think.
If your GM doesn't house rule your sling abilities to work with any sling type, then slipslinger style allows that for a feat :)
And it is possiable realistically speaking to fire two projectiles with a sling at the same time, ofcourse with lower accuracy ;)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/ elven-archer/halfling-sling-master
Currently I'm playing a Halfling warpriest 4. The Weapon Master's Handbook wasn't out when we started.
I began as a Divine Commander archetype riding a wolf and wielding a sling. I've taken
Level 1 Point Blank Shot
Level 3 Combat Expertise
Level 3 Bonus Pack Flanking
I was using my Warslinger to load without using Move actions, slinging before entering melee, using a Move to grab a stitched sling, and setting up flanks w/my mount.
Now as I'm level 4 and nearing level 5 I'm going to take 3 levels of Hunter. My feat choices are as follows:
Level 5 Slipslinger
Level 6 Bonus Outflank
Level 7 Precise Shot
Level 7 Bonus Enfilading Fire
Level 9 Weapon Specialization
Level 9 Bonus Point Blank Master
It will take a while with a lot of switch hitting, but by level 9 I'll be firing 2 shots into melee with a +2 bonus while setting up +4 flanking for my mount. It's not super-optimized for damage but its incredibly accurate; with Fervor to use Divine Favor as a swift for 5 minutes a day I'm running a +23/+18.
Have I mentioned I LOVE getting a full attack, Rapid Shot and potentially a Double Sling + Rapid Shot + Two Weapon Fighting for a potential 3 attacks and an iterative with a sling staff?
Now if only my GM would let me buy some shrieker bombs. You'd see a Halfling holding his sling staff in the middle of a village shouting This... is my BOOMstick!
Ooo Yeah! Don't just SING it... BRING it!
Despite being in the thrown weapon group, a sling is not a thrown weapon, belt of mighty hurling wouldn't effect it.
I'd love to understand the reasoning behind that. It's amazing how frequently these kinds of claims are made on the forums..the constant shields are not weapons threads come to mind.
... When worn, it grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and allows him to apply his Strength modifier as a bonus on attack rolls instead of his Dexterity modifier when making ranged attacks with thrown weapons. Also, the range increment of any weapon thrown by the wearer gains a +10-foot bonus. Treat this Strength bonus as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
It says thrown weapons not weapons from the thrown weapon group. The sling is a projectile weapon. Now as to the "why are slings in the thrown weapon group then" question, that's fairly easy to guess at.
Weapon Group (Slings and Thrown Weapons)
Back in 3.X, weapon groups were just an alternative to the default weapon proficiency system; though it isn't a stretch to think that the idea for slings to be grouped with thrown weapons originated, at least in part, from there. Can't speak to older editions though as the only exposure to 2E I had was Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn and its expansion, and I wasn't around for the older stuff.
The sling is an extra case, because it is treated like a thrown weapon.
You add STR to damage without any modifications, unlike the bow.
no you can't sneak attack with splash weapon, else there wouldn't be this ability in the Underground Chemist Rogue.
"At 4th level, an underground chemist can deal sneak attack damage with splash weapons. The attack must be her first attack that round, qualify for dealing sneak attack damage (such as against a flat-footed target), and be directed at a creature rather than a square."
it doesn't let them sneak attack with the splash, otherwise it would say, you can apply your sneak attack damage to the splash damage of a splash weapon.
But it doesn't, it says, can sneak attack with a splash weapon.
I think mine will be a medium. Some multiclassing might be required though like 3 or 4 levels of weapon master fighter just to get enough feats.
Although playing an inquisitor flying on a mount sniping with his sling sounds amazing as well!Or a different build(like full fighter or ranger) with a dip in alchemist to be able to craft splash weapons on the cheap.
Yes! When I first heard about this feat, I was like "this is wonderful for mediums." Except for the lack of feats, but it's not that far of a stretch considering most of their feats (reasonably) should be spent on increasing their combat prowess. It's just surviving to get those feats which is a problem.
If I didn't know the campaign I'm in would be headed underwater, I would've asked to retrain to slings. As it is, I'm still considering it because of the benefits it would provide over her crossbow.
How about a Nature Fang Druid? With Ranger Archery Style you will get plenty of feats early. Your BAB will lag behind a bit but having a full Animal Companion to run interference or serve as a mount doesn't suck. Plus being a full caster should make up for the lack of BAB. Shillelagh while RAW doesn't apply to a Slingstaff I bet a lot of GMs would allow it. Plus there is Magic Stone.