Why is it that you don't like Erastil?
A little too civilization-centered for my tastes.
I LOVE his role in the setting and think he's a nifty element.I just don't personally cotton to him.
Which is why he didn't make my list in the OP.;) There's plenty of deities I find personally annoying to repellent, but they at least make sense in their role in the setting.
As for all these "no, no,man, Norgorber is SUBTLE AND CRAFTY, unlike the likes of Shax or Nocticula..." Eh. That's a function any even reasonably capable schemer can fulfill. Much like Cayden Cailean, my beef isn't with his schtick, it's that his schtick which other people can do(and have done) is literally all he has going on. Iomedae, Torag, and a few others have similar difficulties, but they manage to scrape by because they don't have as much direct competition for their role.
As for all these "no, no,man, Norgorber is SUBTLE AND CRAFTY, unlike the likes of Shax or Nocticula..." Eh. That's a function any even reasonably capable schemer can fulfill. Much like Cayden Cailean, my beef isn't with his schtick, it's that his schtick which other people can do(and have done) is literally all he has going on. Iomedae, Torag, and a few others have similar difficulties, but they manage to scrape by because they don't have as much direct competition for their role.
Just to clarify - I don't think it's that Norgorber is subtle (I agree there are lots of subtle villains), I think it's more that his motives are both unfathomable but also ultimately understandable. (Though I grant that my take on him isn't really canon).
I don't think there's the same sense of unknowable, secret menace from the other evil entities you're listing. I think you can get that feel from the Great Old Ones and so forth, but Norgorber isn't alien like they are. He's up to something very human and villainous, but nobody knows quite what.
The thing is, Calistria, Nocticula? We know their names. Know their histories. Norgorber has hidden everything about himself. For all we know, he's the direct descendant of the Rough Beast, or Aroden's brother, or, indeed, four different people fused into one being. We know where Vecna came from. We have no idea about Norgorber. He's a god of secrets that is himself totally secret.
He's the "mysterious mercenary". One might liken him to Boba Fett, in a roundabout sort of way.
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Both Shax and Nocticula, as demons, have a pretty clear agenda. Shax wants you carving people into little bits and Nocticula has other plans for your bits entirely.
Norgorber's agenda is unknowable, at least at present, which can make it hard to make good use of him as a force in the game...except that his portfolio makes him the patron of people who don't realize he's their patron. Everyone who cuts a throat in place of a standup fight they might lose. Everyone who uses blackmail to win an argument they might have lost rhetorically. The people who do dishonorable things for what they see as all the right reasons, like poisoning an enemy general to stop a war. All of that feeds Norgorber.
What does it all mean and what's he after? Who the heck knows, and I admit that can be a challenge. But like our worst concerns over what espionage organizations might be doing in our name, Norgorber gets a lot of people to do a lot of terrible things, all by pointing out that it's just more expedient that way.
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Why is it that you don't like Erastil?
A couple things have always rubbed me the wrong way about Erastil. In his Inner Sea Gods entry, it said Erastilian marriage was partly "a way to tie down unruly men and women," suggesting he is wants to deprive people of their freedom. He also seems like the god who would be most against technological and societal advancement, wanting to keep humanity at its least potential, living in little villages ruled by a patriarch, fearing arcane magic and technology.
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Erastil sadly doesn't have quite that much personality anymore. Paizo didn't mean to include most of his negative aspects, and they've since been retconned out of canon.
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Listen, if you don't want those two, no prob, I get it.
Lucky for you, I have 17 other core deities, all ready to go. And if those don't catch your fancy, I have a whole bargain bin of Demigods, Demon Lords, Horsemen, Fey Gods, Alien entities, Archdevils, and Empyreal lords.
Frankly, if you can't find something you like, you haven't looked enough.
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Erastil sadly doesn't have quite that much personality anymore. Paizo didn't mean to include most of his negative aspects, and they've since been retconned out of canon.
Yeah, Good gods aren't allowed to have negative qualities, unfortunately. It's why James Jacobs gets pissed every time somebody mentions Wrath of the Righteous. Guess that's non-canon too.
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Erastil sadly doesn't have quite that much personality anymore. Paizo didn't mean to include most of his negative aspects, and they've since been retconned out of canon.Yeah, Good gods aren't allowed to have negative qualities, unfortunately. It's why James Jacobs gets pissed every time somebody mentions Wrath of the Righteous. Guess that's non-canon too.
What, he's not the Redneck God of 'Get back in the kitchen', anymore? *is playing through a Runelords home campaign, and we've run into a couple of Erastilians that are... well. They hearken to the ol' ways...
Cayenne is also the god of freedom fighters and abolusanest. And is the antaganser of asmodeus.
Must have partaken of too much . . . .
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What, he's not the Redneck God of 'Get back in the kitchen', anymore?
That's a fairly selective interpretation. Erastil is the god of *couples* settling down, but that's only 50% to do with women, and also 50% to do with men. He's not a fan of bachelors or adventurers or any of the sort of single shenanigans that Cayden's worshippers get up to, believing that *everyone*, regardless of gender, is better off settling down and contributing to the community, etc. (Erastil might think of Cayden as the patron God of Irresponsible Behavior...)
But, because of that notion, that Erastil was somehow a misogynist for wanting *both* genders to settle down, he's been backed away from that anyway.
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Erastil sadly doesn't have quite that much personality anymore. Paizo didn't mean to include most of his negative aspects, and they've since been retconned out of canon.Yeah, Good gods aren't allowed to have negative qualities, unfortunately. It's why James Jacobs gets pissed every time somebody mentions Wrath of the Righteous. Guess that's non-canon too.
I'm curious as to what this WotR taboo is (include it in spoilers for obvious reasons).
I have an argument for Norgorber in that he, as a deity, isn't terribly interesting. He does everything a selfish, unscrupulous, amoral sociopath would do, and even his worshipers will find they're just means to an end to him.
The truly interesting part of Norgorber, like several other deities, lie in how his church worships him. Blackfinger, master of poisoners and poisonous creatures, mentor to alchemists, black marketeers, and other under-the-table businessmen. The Gray Master, greed incarnate, served by malicious merchants, tenebrous thieves, and fraudulent filchers all alike. Father Skinsaw, the murderer, his kills deliberately executed and yet coldly apathetic. And lastly, the Reaper of Reputation, blackmailer, broker, and destroyer of knowledge, looking not just to keep secrets but make more.
And they all belong to the same guy. And none of them necessarily like each other, how it seems to be less a single religion and more of a mass number of cults, yet no matter how they serve, they are all his. It's not even a matter of 'differing beliefs' such as with the Cult of the Dawnflower and the rest of the Sarenrites. This is all a product of what he is: a mystery so nebulous that you can't help but be drawn to it like a moth to a flame. I'm sure more than one cultist has been recruited in the hopes of wanting to learn the great secret of Norgorber, then slowly being twisted into what he wants them to be: his.
As for the whole 'banality of godhood', you can play it as such if you like but it should be noted that Norgorber isn't a 'nobody' because he was unknown. Norgorber is a 'nobody' because when he became a god, he erased knowledge of himself from across the universe. Even the gods apparently are unaware. This isn't a matter of an unknown number becoming a big shot by accident. This was someone or someTHING that was able to remove himself from history because he willed it so. I'd be willing to speak the same to Cayden: he wasn't a random mercenary when he took the test, but a well-know, nigh-legendary hero whose exploits had been told far and wide.
Wrath of the Righteous spoilers
Meh
James Jacobs has already said he'd change it if he could
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And Rynjin, among others EXCORCIATED the devs for including such behavior in the AP, among other failures of the mythic rules.
It could be said that, with that incident as a focus, it soured the entire dev team on ever doing anything more expansive with the mythic rules. We'll be very, very lucky to ever get truly high level play out of the dev team again because of it.
==Aelryinth
I didn't really (and still don't) think it was that bad, gods are gods, historically they've always been oblivious to how squishy us mortals can be :-)
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I'm intrigued by this whole deal with the AP, though we probably should cut that discussion short now before it overtakes the thread.
*pushes the refocus button*
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You need an ace conductor to get this thing back on track.
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You scroungin' for a job there, bud? How 'bout you tell us what YOU think of those two gods? What makes em' so special?
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Erastil is probably the least cookie-cutter LG god that's ever been widely published.
Come on, most LG gods are your just warrior paladin types (Heironeous, Torm, Dragonlance bahamut), your law/kingly types (Cuthbert, Tyr), healer types (kwan yin, Ilmater, other healers), peace/knowledge/wisdom (Rao, enlightened monks) or racial deities (Halflings and Dwarves, historically).
Erastil is the god of small towns, communities, and families, where the only good government is small government where you know your lord and mayor, and the laws are close to the people, not done by some distant arse sitting on a throne who doesn't give two cents about you.
It's about men and women taking care of their families, and neighbors taking care of one another against all the bad things the world throws at them, passing stuff down from one generation to the next.
The Hick 'barefoot woman in the kitchen' would be the most negative LN stereotype of Erastil, which is exactly what, say, a cleric of adabar, who is about BIG CITY government, would say disparagingly about them, and certainly a cleric of Asmodeus, whose misogyny is going to bleed through.
A LG male god of family and community who doesn't love and respect the wives who hold it together would be literally insane. Misogyny and treating women like baby breeders is Asmodeus' thing, although he's happy to paint a LG god who doesn't like him a whit with the same brush.
But, seriously, he's an LG god of nature and the hunt, who cares for the lands around him as fervently as the people who live there, respects druids and gets along with nature deities, without all the high-falutin' philosophy of most LG gods. That's EXTREMELY different then most LG gods, who tend to be about the great grand fight against Evil. Iomadae, for instance, is basically a knightly paladin clone god. Gotta have one, here you are.
Cayden is likely a product of the cities, but Erastil probably sees him as a prodigal son who creates a ruckus wherever he goes and needs to settle down with a good women he loves and raise a bunch of kids to temper his moods.
And it should be pointed out - Cayden's churches run a LOT of orphanages, and do raise those kids, and his taverns ARE a place where smaller communities come together. So, he and Erastil probably get along a lot better then either of them realize. Cayden's people help folk blow off steam and get back to doing their good work, and moreover are willing to pick up swords and fight for what's the right thing to do at a moment's notice.
That has a lot of value, and Erastil has no doubt noticed it. I don't doubt that beneath the surface, the two churches work together far, far better then most, even if the gods themselves are a bit prickly, with a Grandfather/Junior relationship that probably has a lot of good-natured sarcasm being heaved back and forth.
===Aelryinth
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I like your analysis on their mutual relationship and mostly agree with it. Still, the gods and the worshipers are two different things altogether, and Cayleanites are, much like their patron, often uninterested in living routine family lives (even though they might in some way or another). Nevertheless, I feel lawful and chaotic should have as much to bicker about as good and evil, even when they're on the same side (this is generally why you want your neutral goods on standby). It makes for interesting, flawed, mortal drama.
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Caydenite priests run taverns. Now, their worshippers are probably a traveling, rowdy, trouble-making bunch...but the Church itself is probably remarkably settled and exists to cater to travelers...while also at the same time probably becoming very strong members of the local community (if not only because they make booze, which ties them to the agricultural side of things).
They also run ORPHANAGES. Erastil is all about family...orphanages are probably a grey area existing between community and family responsibility. The fact Cayden's people are willing to do this probably raises their value greatly in Erastil's eyes, because it's a heavy responsibility few are willing to undertake...even if they get brought up as rowdy trouble-makers, it's still providing children a family. Erastil probably considers those orphanages as worth every bit of ruckus Cayden causes, and then some.
So, I see the Churches getting along REMARKABLY well. It's also convenient that they form a nice place for trouble to congregate to, and keep such away from the farms and shops of locals. It's probably quite appreciated. "Aye, another outlander got stabbed last night." "At the tavern?" "Where else, o' course?" "I think they sell a stabbing per hunnert pints, what ya think, Earl?" "Shut up and load the hops fer the deacon, Fred. Lessen you like you like your beer flavored like your well."
==Aelryinth
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And that's all we do, kapeesh!
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And Rynjin, among others EXCORCIATED the devs for including such behavior in the AP, among other failures of the mythic rules.
It could be said that, with that incident as a focus, it soured the entire dev team on ever doing anything more expansive with the mythic rules. We'll be very, very lucky to ever get truly high level play out of the dev team again because of it.
==Aelryinth
You may be confused. I've actually never played WotR, and haven't mentioned anything at all about it to JJ (but I've read some pretty in-depth scathing posts about it). I could care less, considering I think "Good guys doing bad things with good intentions" is a time honored trope that serves to give the big goods SOME semblance of a 3D personality.
Others disagreed vehemently, it seems. As do Paizo themselves, from what I've read (Iomedae being a tyrannical dictator "For the greater good" was a mistake, supposedly, and we've already talked about walking Erastil's more unsavory characteristics back to "Utterly bland").
I'm also on record saying I quite like the Mythic rules, though they require a firm GM's hand.
I HAVE said, having read over the AP, that WotR is laughably easy even compared to some other Paizo APs (which run the gamut from middling to piss easy as it is, with a few glaring exceptions like the first couple of Carrion Crown books and Reign of Winter), but I think that's a fair criticism.
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Erastil is probably the least cookie-cutter LG god that's ever been widely published.
{. . .}
The Hick 'barefoot woman in the kitchen' would be the most negative LN stereotype of Erastil, which is exactly what, say, a cleric of adabar, who is about BIG CITY government, would say disparagingly about them, and certainly a cleric of Asmodeus, whose misogyny is going to bleed through.
{. . .}
I like this (had to jump in and Fave it). Asmodeus keeps spreading the stereotypical negative image of Erastil AND working to trick Erastil himself into playing into it, while also continually fostering misogynist heresies within the Church of Erastil. Asmodeus probably does this to a lot of deities, and it seems a good guess that while Asmodeus makes a fine art of this, other Evil and even some officially non-Evil/non-Good deities are no slouches in this department. Calistrian trickery heresy, anyone? And of course . . . Norgorber.
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There is one really awesome tidbit of info that makes Norgorber stand out as one of the most interesting of the gods.
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"Walking back' Erastil's unsavory characteristics is more a case of 'wtf was that idiot doing thinking a LG god acts like that?'
It's like the guy who thought there could be Paladins of Asmodeus. Anything to throw dirt on the good guys, I guess. It's like you can't simply make decent stereotypes without someone wanting to immediately throw crap on them.
You can already claim that Erastil is fairly close-minded because he prefers small communities that are tight, and doesn't give a fig for high minded kingdoms and empires and crusades. He's not a god of adventurers, trouble makers, rabble rousers, 'those who dare', because he rightfully and reasonably sees that such people tend to stir up all kinds of trouble for locals, and often run away from the very trouble they cause, leaving locals to clean up their messes or take the brunt of the punishment/consequences for their actions.
But making Erastil out to be a misogynist who forces women into a particular role ignores what Lawful GOOD is all about. Lawful Neutral? Yeah, I could see it. Lawful EVIL? definitely.
At the same time, I really, strongly feel that someone who emphasizes marriage so much should have a known divine marriage and family himself to emphasize that he lives what he believes. I don't know why there isn't a Ms. Erastil and O'Erastil clan published SOMEWHERE. Makes no sense for such a family-oriented god. A simple note that Erastil has been the faithful husband to deity x for uncounted millennia and they've had over a dozen children together would be fine. His avatars have also been known to take mortal wives (and husbands) at times, to help communities rebuild around a strong center, and so uncounted mortals have the blood of Erastil flowing through them.
I would find it even more fun if the fact that Erastil is the ancestor of so many beings and would know all his descendants means that he is the ONE person who knows who Nogrober actually is (and Nogrober himself has no clue Erastil is one of his ancestors), and Cayden is a not-so-distant grandson of his...and Iomadae a grand=daughter.
==Aelryinth
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It's like the guy who thought there could be Paladins of Asmodeus. Anything to throw dirt on the good guys, I guess. It's like you can't simply make decent stereotypes without someone wanting to immediately throw crap on them.
"Stereotypes" is exactly the problem. Erastil is one of the most cliched, bland deities in the setting. He's every god in every setting of his type in a nutshell, with a little extra nature flavor thrown in for reasons.
It's not about "throwing crap" on things, it's adding a little texture to a two dimensional figure.
Good guys, contrary to popular belief, can do bad things, and think bad thoughts.
If Erastil silently disapproves of women (or anyone, for that matter) having aspirations beyond their little community and growing it, that's okay. It doesn't change his alignment, it just makes him a Good guy with a negative trait.
Your grandparents probably held the same beliefs. Does that make them bad people?
So... about Cayden and Norgasldkfjlkbjaqber?
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It's like the guy who thought there could be Paladins of Asmodeus. Anything to throw dirt on the good guys, I guess. It's like you can't simply make decent stereotypes without someone wanting to immediately throw crap on them."Stereotypes" is exactly the problem. Erastil is one of the most cliched, bland deities in the setting. He's every god in every setting of his type in a nutshell, with a little extra nature flavor thrown in for reasons.
It's not about "throwing crap" on things, it's adding a little texture to a two dimensional figure.
Good guys, contrary to popular belief, can do bad things, and think bad thoughts.
If Erastil silently disapproves of women (or anyone, for that matter) having aspirations beyond their little community and growing it, that's okay. It doesn't change his alignment, it just makes him a Good guy with a negative trait.
Your grandparents probably held the same beliefs. Does that make them bad people?
It's already part of his beliefs...he's about the community, not big dreams. So, you're trying to make a negative trait out of what is one of his primary beliefs...that you can't have true lawful good unless your people are close to your government, and the community is small and intertwined.
What you're trying to do is make it 'bad' by adding overt sexism to it.
He's NOT a chaotic god. Therefore, yeah, he's 'bland'. He is a LG god of nature, which is UNIQUE in just about every setting I know of. he's about family and community, not dungeon-diving and evil-slaughtering. He's about bringing in the harvest and milking the cows and hunting down things which threaten the townsfolk, not looting old tombs, stirring up great dooms, putting down ancient curses. He cares for the land and the people and doesn't stir up trouble for the fun of it.
So, yeah, he's 'bland' because the things he stands for are conservative, close to home, protective, family-oriented. Not adventurer/knight/mercenary style stuff.
For all that, he's unique. Virtually every other god in the book is a cookie-cutter stereotype borrowed from other settings. "Our god of paladins is a woman!' 'Our god of travelers is a butterfly!' 'our god of theives has 4 different churches just to confuse things!' 'Our god of swashbucklers became one while drunk!' blah blah blah.
If you swiped out Desna for Fharlanghn or Celestian, nobody would bat an eye. oops, no longer a butterfly.
Iomadae might as well be Heironeous or Torm for all the differences.
Cayden acts like every Tymoran or Harper in the bleeding FR, or any other trickster god, ever.
Boring Erastil? he doesn't really have any counterpart, anywhere. Oh, sure, there's gods of the home, there's gods of the hunt, but LG? Representing both farming and hunting, nature and community, family and good neighbors?
his closest equivalent is Mielikki in FR, who is NOTHING like him, or her Greyhawk twin Ehlonna, and that's only because they are Hunt goddesses who use a bow, so wrapped up in nature bias there's nothing like Erastil's flavor of being the hunter that provides for his people and community about them. They all seem to be about shooting bad guys who threaten trees.
So, he's bland because his areas of interest are very un-adventuresome and bland.
he's still unique, and he makes for a truly appropriate spin on a LG god for the common person.
Cayden is not a god for the common MAN. he might be a god for the common-BORN, since he doesn't hold nobility in any higher regard then Erastil does. But he's definitely a god for 'those who dare', he just doesn't give a damn what your origins are.
But he's still the 'laughing rogue' stereotype god, right down to his bones.
==Aelryinth
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At the same time, I really, strongly feel that someone who emphasizes marriage so much should have a known divine marriage and family himself to emphasize that he lives what he believes.
Erastil, god of families, and Pharasma, goddess of birth and midwives, being childless and unmarried is one of the funky bits of the setting I'm not in love with. I prefer pantheons with more relationships, like the Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc. pantheons (or some of the Greyhawk pantheons).
Even the gods who are related have gaps, like Shelyn and Dou-Bral/Zon-Kuthon, who have a father, but whose mother remains a mystery.
Still, that sort of stuff just creates a niche for a GM to introduce their own flavorful bits, like making Pharasma into an 'All-Mother' to Asmodeus, Abadar, Erastil, etc. or having Sivanah being the (intentionally) forgotten mother of Shelyn and Dou-Bral, in hiding from her son, so that she doesn't end up like their father, or Erastil's former life and hunting companion having been Cernunnos (and having been less lawful and more freedom-loving before Lamashtu devoured his friend).
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Caden Calyen is the god of having a good time. Desna is the god of wonderment in creation. They basically come at the two same things from different angles.
From what I understand, Desna worshipers like to explore the world and have adventure because Desna created a large chunk of the world. They are about basking in the wonder and inherent beauty of the world, and discovering it.
Caden is the god of just having a good time. As long as you have a lust for LIFE and have fun, that's what he's up for. His commandments aren't to explore the world, but to simply to lead a fun and interesting life, because life's too short, y'know?
They are both fond of liberty and freedom, but for different reasons. Desna is the god of travel and dreams, she wants her followers to have unbridled imagination and explore the beautiful parts of the world. You can't do that if you're a slave.
Caden wants you to just have fun with life, and lead others to do the same. You can't do that if you are enslaved either. Eat good food, drink good wine (but don't become an alcoholic) and generally enjoy what you can in life.
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At the same time, I really, strongly feel that someone who emphasizes marriage so much should have a known divine marriage and family himself to emphasize that he lives what he believes.Erastil, god of families, and Pharasma, goddess of birth and midwives, being childless and unmarried is one of the funky bits of the setting I'm not in love with. I prefer pantheons with more relationships, like the Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc. pantheons (or some of the Greyhawk pantheons).
Even the gods who are related have gaps, like Shelyn and Dou-Bral/Zon-Kuthon, who have a father, but whose mother remains a mystery.
Still, that sort of stuff just creates a niche for a GM to introduce their own flavorful bits, like making Pharasma into an 'All-Mother' to Asmodeus, Abadar, Erastil, etc. or having Sivanah being the (intentionally) forgotten mother of Shelyn and Dou-Bral, in hiding from her son, so that she doesn't end up like their father, or Erastil's former life and hunting companion having been Cernunnos (and having been less lawful and more freedom-loving before Lamashtu devoured his friend).
I think you meant Curchanus.
--C.
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Your grandparents probably held the same beliefs. Does that make them bad people?
It quite possibly did.*
Your society condoning or even encouraging evil doesn't cause it to stop being evil.
* Disclaimer: I know of a number of grandparents who actually are bad people, and are continuing sources of grief and misery to their children, grandchildren, and others.
I'm sure that if you go back far enough, your great-great-[go back as far as you dare] grandpa was a wife-beating racist who thought nothing of being a wife beating racist, because being a wife beating racist was normal.
I'm sure mine was too.
Our current society has considerably higher standards than the days of old =P
@ Aelrynth - my understanding from Mr. Jacobs is that Erastil's lack of martial status is completely deliberate. Your disquiet at it might even be an intended result.
As to Pharasma - Pharasma might be older than atoms. I can't see her getting married any more than I could see gravity getting married.
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Your grandparents probably held the same beliefs. Does that make them bad people?It quite possibly did.*
Your society condoning or even encouraging evil doesn't cause it to stop being evil.
* Disclaimer: I know of a number of grandparents who actually are bad people, and are continuing sources of grief and misery to their children, grandchildren, and others.
I'm sure that if you go back far enough, your great-great-[go back as far as you dare] grandpa was a wife-beating racist who thought nothing of being a wife beating racist, because being a wife beating racist was normal.
I'm sure mine was too.
Our current society has considerably higher standards than the days of old =P
Additionally, the old canard of judging people by the standards of their time isn't applicable in Golarion, where good and evil are objective and universal.
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^And on top of it, Golarion social evolution operates at a geological pace.
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Desna is fleeting, removed, and honestly she's a tentacled good-natured alien from 9th dimension who wears this winged elf disguise just so she doesn't scare everybody. And she still doesn't quite get those totes adorbs three-dimensional carbon-based beings of this reality...but she loves them. Hey, is that the Black Butterfly? I need to run after her, byyyyeeee!!!
So..Sarenrae and Shelyn are getting Consentacles?
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Erastil sadly doesn't have quite that much personality anymore. Paizo didn't mean to include most of his negative aspects, and they've since been retconned out of canon.
Oh my god I did this I am so sorry everyone.
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Desna fights for freedom from tyranny, values strength in battle, and embodies the sheer lust for exploring everywhere that every adventurer needs to have.
See, that's interesting because I don't think that this would be an accurate description of what Desna stands for. Yes, she is a goddess of freedom, but of freedom as a more general concept of being free to make your own destiny instead of being bound by fate, prophecy and thelikes. Yeah, she probably shuns tyranny for the same reason, but fighting tyranny isn't what she's all about.
She also is a peaceful goddess at heart and while willing to fight for her ideals she only would value strength in battle as a means to an end, not as a concept per se.
And she is the goddess of travel, not the goddess of exploration and she does not especially care for the reason someone travels. While Cayden may be more interested in the goal of the journey, not the journey itself.
So what I'm saying is Desna and Cayden embody different aspects of certain themes and it's certainly not as if Cayden did the same things Desna does, just drunk.
As far as Norgorber is concerned: I think it's the combination of four aspects in one god, that makes it appealing to me. Especially as those aspects can be at odds with eachother. Apart from that, those deities you mentioned are quite specialized and may not be very known to most humans (and elves, and dwarves...). Achaekek for example is great, if you want to play a Red Mantis assassin, but apart from that, he has no large or organized following. Shax and Nocticula are demon lords which probably makes them even more obscure entitities for most people.
So - and I don't know if I should say that about Norgorber - he seems to me a bit more accessible as those other deities, and as long as there isn't a particular thematic reason to use the others, he seems to be the better choice most of the time. YMMV, of course.
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She also is a peaceful goddess at heart and while willing to fight for her ideals she only would value strength in battle as a means to an end, not as a concept per se.
Only Gorum really seems to value strength in battle as enough in and of itself. For everyone else, from Iomedae to Sarenrae to Rovagug, being able to stomp face is nice on a conceptual level, but not for its own sake. Golarion is very much a world where a true pacifist would just get rolled over.
The deity who hunts Ghlaunder, squares off against Zon-Kuthon and Lamashtu enough that her writeups mention going to Shelyn and Sarenrae for friggin' physical and mental therapy? Strikes me as someone who stands up for their beliefs and takes responsibility for those beliefs. Tyrants limit the freedom to travel, the freedom to dream, and so on.
So...still not impressed with Cayden, because apart from getting tanked, his "uniqueness" remains pretty elusive.
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Going way, way back to the far-away year of 2010...
Erastil seems like an old widower to me. He had a wife, but that was in the past, and she was the love of his life, but she died, and he's not going to defile her memory by starting up some new relationship in his old age. I mean, if mortals can do that in one lifetime, imagine what it must be like for a god.
The fact that only he remembers the name of his wife is enough. His pain is private, but it's also mixed with memory of joy, which is why he so strongly believes that marriage and family are good for everyone. When he sees some happy young couple or middle aged couple or old couple, it makes him smile, because it reminds him of the life that he had. When he sees someone else alone, he is displeased, because it reminds him of his current sadness.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Shax, Noticula, et al I see as being interested in secrets for the sake of advancing their aims. Norgorber is interested in secrets for their own sake. He's the guy who watches his neighbors through binoculars, not because he's really interested in what Mister Next Door is up to with that teenage babysitter, but because knowing that Mister Next Door is up to something with the babysitter is power. You never know when a god might wander up and need some info, and in return you may find out something seedy and interesting you never knew existed. Norgorber's the guy who collects knowledge, who sits at the center of the web, who knows things he's not supposed to. Sure, he does some evil, but it's not about the evil, it's about staying the guy who knows everything.
Cayden is the god of the thrill. He's the god of first kisses, of that tingle you get when you see a lover naked for the first time. He's the god of the rush you feel when you step off the bridge with a bungee tied to your ankle. He exists because mortals know something the gods often forget, with their eternal existences: that even an old thing can have a new side it. Drinking, carousing, that's him, but it's not about the drunkenness: it's about the removal of your inhibitions and fears, the removal of the reluctance to take the chance.
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Shax, Noticula, et al I see as being interested in secrets for the sake of advancing their aims. Norgorber is interested in secrets for their own sake. He's the guy who watches his neighbors through binoculars, not because he's really interested in what Mister Next Door is up to with that teenage babysitter, but because knowing that Mister Next Door is up to something with the babysitter is power. You never know when a god might wander up and need some info, and in return you may find out something seedy and interesting you never knew existed. Norgorber's the guy who collects knowledge, who sits at the center of the web, who knows things he's not supposed to. Sure, he does some evil, but it's not about the evil, it's about staying the guy who knows everything.
Cayden is the god of the thrill. He's the god of first kisses, of that tingle you get when you see a lover naked for the first time. He's the god of the rush you feel when you step off the bridge with a bungee tied to your ankle. He exists because mortals know something the gods often forget, with their eternal existences: that even an old thing can have a new side it. Drinking, carousing, that's him, but it's not about the drunkenness: it's about the removal of your inhibitions and fears, the removal of the reluctance to take the chance.
I was already a huge fan of Cayden but you sir just sold me on Norgorber.
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So it's doing SOME good!