Sell Me On These Two Core Deities


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've been running games and churning out characters in Golarion since Rise of the Runelords was... eh, call it two books in.

A major part of the setting's appeal to me has been its divine lineup- we have a Goddess of Death who despises undead and isn't malevolent, we have a Goddess of Beauty, Love and Art who manages to feel like someone you could get behind. We have Asmodeus!

Annnnnnd then we have the following two... unlike, say, Abadar, or Iomedae, who I don't particularly care for but can see a thematic and/or cultural niche they fill better than anyone else, these guys just... leave me tepid.

Talking about two of the Ascended here- Norgorber and Cayden Cailean.

Norgie, God of Sneaky Gits just... does nothing I don't have more fun using Shax or Nocticula or Mammon or Achaekek for. His four aspects and diverse cult are an interesting stab in a promising direction, but... I just don't ever have something for his followers to do I wouldn't rather hand to somebody else.

Cayden "Whoops I got drunk and woke up deified" Cailean is even worse... because apart from "get sauced periodically," most of his schtick seems to be done with more panache by the faithful of Desna. The best use I've found for his faith has been as rather pathetic comic relief, which strikes e as a poor use of a deity.

So, fans of Norgorber and Cayden Cailean... help me out here. What is it about them that you love?

(If you share my opinion, or have an even less positive one, I request that you not bother to repeat it here-I am honestly interested in finding something to like about these deities, not in a massive "YEAH, THE ASCENDED SUCK!" dogpile)


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think a "comic relief" deity is incredibly important in a multiverse of such serious beings. Cayden is more than just the God of drunkenness, he's a God of life and adventure and yes, comedy. The very fact that he ascended is proof that fate has a sense of humor, which is something those stuffy Pharasmins need to realize.

It's a big, frightening world. But you don't have to despair. Grab some friends, have a drink, sing songs and fight the good fight!

Silver Crusade

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What sold me on Norgorber: He refuses to let anyone know anything about him, even what he looks like. If an artist tries to create an image of Norgorber, they get the shakes. Even if they start out saying, "I know this isn't what he really looks like; I just want to make my own version," they STILL get the shakes. Because if Norgorber only stopped them when they were right, it might lead people to figure out what he looked like. This is awesome in a god of secrets.

The secrets aspect is def my fav. If I were going to make a Norgorber-themed character, she'd be an infiltrator inquisitor who blackmailed good-aligned divine casters with their dirtiest secrets.


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I remain unconvinced, but keep 'em coming.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've seen Cayden as a god for the common person. If you want to have a good time, feel good about yourself and go out and do good things with no responsibility then he's the god for you. He's the god that seems to stand at the point for individual freedoms

Silver Crusade

If you want to have your cleric be "inspired" by Durkon from Order of the Stick then Cayden is pretty much perfect.

It provides wonderful in character comic relief at the table. It makes enough sense in world not to jar me out of things but the primary point is at the table in OUR world. His clerics are just fun to play and fun to be around.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You don't need to be "sold" on anything.

Golarion is a huge toolbox of stuff to build stories with. You don't have to use them all.

Take a look at any of the Pathfinder Tales novels. Generally they mention one or a couple of other gods. All the others might as well not exist.

As a GM decide what kind of narrative you want to build your campaign around and use the elements that fit. Golarion is intentionally built this way if you break the world down region by region.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Cayden Cailean is pretty much the ideal PC Cleric deity. He's generally in favor of "good" stuff, has no real structure to his church, and all of his temples are pubs. He makes a good fallback religion for players who aren't that interested in roleplaying a religious character, but still want their character's soul to go somewhere (or they want to play a cleric).

Desna is all about travel and exploration; Cayden is the god of "hold my beer and watch this". They fill two thematically different spots in the "Chaotic Good" spectrum.

As for Norgorber...well, he's kind of a weird god. The stuff about his cults hunting people down just for poking into secret stuff, or their own internal backstabbing against one another makes them seem weirdly dysfunctional, but it puts them in a good place as antagonists; once the party starts getting close to unraveling a mystery, you've got a built-in secondary antagonist from these cultists who want whatever secret it is to die with the PCs.


Norgorber is cool to me because he takes four different forms to meet a variety of worshipers' needs. It gives him an interesting feel—sort of like a real-world god, he's different things to different people. He's not just a serial killer, he's a secretkeeper. He's not just a secretkeeper, he's a master thief. He's not just a thief, he's a chemist and herbalist.

He has a diverse variety of interests—and yet unlike his sometimes-buddy Achaekek, he's actually originally mortal. This guy ascended via the Test of the Starstone (the first to do so after Aroden himself), and presumably had a whole history on Golarion's soil before doing that. And yet he still manages to keep his real identity a perfect secret. Not even Vecna was able to disguise his history so effectively.

"Some believe that if the origin of the god became known, the god himself would become undone."


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LazarX wrote:
You don't need to be "sold" on anything.

Need?

Of course not.

But there is absolutely zero reason I can't look for things to hook onto about these deities who, after all, show up in published material I may intend to use.

I mean, no luck so far (literally every point in favor of Cayden seems to feed back into my own appraisal, which leaves me finding him about as interesting and useful as a dab of spackle on a screen door), but if some perspective out there exists to make a little bell go "ding," I may as well fish for it.


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It's going to be hard to convince you then, if you are going to not accept any already stated points. Because they sum it up pretty well.

For the record, he is my favourite deity.


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I'll sell you whichever one you want, just mail me the check tomorrow and I will totally send those right out to you.


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Cayden Cailean is about more then getting tanked, he's also the God of Bravery and Freedom.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Desna is fleeting, removed, and honestly she's a tentacled good-natured alien from 9th dimension who wears this winged elf disguise just so she doesn't scare everybody. And she still doesn't quite get those totes adorbs three-dimensional carbon-based beings of this reality...but she loves them. Hey, is that the Black Butterfly? I need to run after her, byyyyeeee!!!

...while Cayden is your down to earth guy. Down to earth when he drinks with you, when he punches bad guys with you, and when he robs you for your flower, providing you're a lady. Of course, if you're a lady who's not into boys he'll totally understand that and buy you a drink and call you the best friendzone ever. He'll still totally whine to Calistria about how come such hot chicks can't dig his abs the next time they wake up in one bed together. Again.


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Gorbacz wrote:
Desna is fleeting, removed, and honestly she's a tentacled good-natured alien from 9th dimension who wears this winged elf disguise just so she doesn't scare everybody. And she still doesn't quite get those totes adorbs three-dimensional carbon-based beings of this reality...but she loves them. Hey, is that the Black Butterfly? I need to run after her, byyyyeeee!!!

Vigorous head cannon you got there. ;)


The NPC wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Desna is fleeting, removed, and honestly she's a tentacled good-natured alien from 9th dimension who wears this winged elf disguise just so she doesn't scare everybody. And she still doesn't quite get those totes adorbs three-dimensional carbon-based beings of this reality...but she loves them. Hey, is that the Black Butterfly? I need to run after her, byyyyeeee!!!
Vigorous head cannon you got there. ;)

He is right.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Cayden is the god of BROS. He's the god of getting hot wings and a case of Natty Ice. The deity of going to the strip club and puking in a taxi. He's the Lord of the Hangover and the Prince of the Bachelor Party.


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Gorbacz wrote:

Desna is fleeting, removed, and honestly she's a tentacled good-natured alien from 9th dimension who wears this winged elf disguise just so she doesn't scare everybody. And she still doesn't quite get those totes adorbs three-dimensional carbon-based beings of this reality...but she loves them. Hey, is that the Black Butterfly? I need to run after her, byyyyeeee!!!

...while Cayden is your down to earth guy. Down to earth when he drinks with you, when he punches bad guys with you, and when he robs you for your flower, providing you're a lady. Of course, if you're a lady who's not into boys he'll totally understand that and buy you a drink and call you the best friendzone ever. He'll still totally whine to Calistria about how come such hot chicks can't dig his abs the next time they wake up in one bed together. Again.

My take is this...

Desna: "I probably should have checked back in sooner, but that primo starweed was So Freakin' Awesome that Norgie gave me that I kind of... where was I again? Oh, right, look, there's a neat star cluster over there... I wonder what the story behind it is... I'll be back in a bit, I have to check this out."

ie, Really *hard* for the average mortal mind to relate to. Sure, there's freedom and travel, but it's through such a prism that it is impossible to fully understand.

Cayden Cailean drinks for a bunch of the gods, because a bunch of them don't know how to even relax. Heck, Aroden with his whole 'being permanently dead thing' probably only is relaxing *now* that Cayden sold him on the the idea of 'take a freaking vacation, for Starstone's sakes'!

But aside from that comical approach, Cayden represents the *true* capability of *anyone* to possibly pass the Starstone trials. He gets a cold shoulder from some of his fellow deities, even, because either A. He used the Starstone (Irori's particularly NOT impressed with that.)
B. It appears to be as much 'dumb' luck as skill
C. He wasn't even *looking* to be a deity. That's a very important factor. Rather than being the Reluctant God who's unsure of what he's doing or how he got there, he's very much along the line of "EVERYONE has divinity in them, they just have to learn how to express it in their own way. And don't be a dick."

And depending on how well you know Dr. Who, you could also play him up as a bit of Jack Harkness, without as much sex and a bit more drinking.

On Norgorber, I saw it somewhere that there was this idea that Norgorber was actually a *party* of four adventurers that had Ascended together, but because they were so cohesive yet so secretive they ended up as one deity rather than four separate ones, because the 'Starstone works weird.'

Treating each aspect as a secretive deity-unto-themselves and playing the "I know you know he knows she knows I know you know" shtick is one way of looking at it, even as everyone either knows *nothing* and needs to learn it to get a leg up, or knows *everything* and the bystanders to the conversation are left in the dust.

Imagine in this case a group of players that sit and pass notes to each other, and to the DM, and everyone is having fun at the table but no one is ever REALLY sure *what* the whole story is. For some people, this is insanely fun.

As far as being 'sold' on Core deities, though, I have a hard time with Nethys (I MUST HAVE PERFECT BALANCE OR IT ALL ENDS! AND OH GODS ON FIRE ON BOTH SIDES!), Pharasma (Meh, it's all a balance, so bored. NEXT dead soul in question, please step down. You're Asmodean? To Hell with you. Have a nice day. NEXT! Oh, god, you've got a refund? *sigh* Do you have your receipt? No? What store did you buy this at again? When did you buy this?)...

Liberty's Edge

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Norgorber and Cayden represent the banality of godhood.

What other meaning are we to draw from the fact that an unknown nobody and a drunken fool can be raised to 'divine' status? Not despite those qualities, but actually because of them?

From their example we can clearly see that godhood is not determined by any measure of objective worth, but rather by embodying some aspect of the collective social id. Their ascension demonstrates that the 'Test of the Starstone' is just as likely to elevate 'the premier Chelaxian fashion trendsetter' or 'the first reality television star' as the great hero of the age.


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Yakman wrote:
Cayden is the god of BROS. He's the god of getting hot wings and a case of Natty Ice. The deity of going to the strip club and puking in a taxi. He's the Lord of the Hangover and the Prince of the Bachelor Party.

All reasons he spends a lot of time sidelined for me...

I gotta say, the number of people who find him more "relatable" than Desna here is the biggest thing I'm taking away from this... 'cause I honestly find "let's get tanked and go hang-gliding" a lot harder to wrap my head around than "weird ancient cosmic entity with a good heart has slightly different priorities than I do."

Now,CBDunkerson's "banality of Godhood" thing?

That I can get behind.

"Being a god is no great shakes. Look at these losers. Right time, right place."

Just one would be a fluke, but two...

Silver Crusade

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Since Norgorber is such an enigma, the way I found to make his faith a little more interesting and unique was to kinda fill-in some of the gaps on him for my own purposes.

For example, in my own headcanon, Norgorber isn't just one god; he's actually the shared identity of a group of evil adventurers that did the Test of the Starstone together, each of his aspects being a separate person.


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I know where he lived before he became a god.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm not sure the god of Bro's is a fair characterization of Cayden, I think that god would be more CN at best not GN. If Cayden was a bro, he would be the bro who holds your hair while you puke. Yes drinking is central to his philosophy, but so is good and liberation. In the River Kingdoms where freedom is sacrosanct he is popular. In Andor, especially along the Chelaxian boarder where the freed slaves live he is popular.

He would fit very well in Hell's Rebal's. First in the front of any liberation activity and in the jubilant sharing of libations after.

I'm not sure any deity needs to make sense but I do find one thing missing from Pathfinder that is the lack of evident hierarchy among the gods. Thinking back to the Forgotten Realms, Mystra was the goddess of Magic, but she had a lieutenant god, Auth, in charge of wizards in particular. It doesn't mean she didn't micromanage, but she needed some deific middle manager.

As I recall they had like 5 levels of deity, from Major to Quasi, mechanically it affected the size of their portfolios, and the number of domains they offered. Pathfinder seems to have that to a lesser extent with Demon Lords, and Empyreal Lords (and all sorts of other such beings, like dukes, horsemen, etc.) Heck the greeks, romans, and norse pantheons all had the notion of a hierarchy, even if it was relatively flat, paternalistic, and filled with rebellious / petulant gods.


Personally I really enjoy Cayden, makes for fun characters to play. Norgorber is the ultimate God of mystery, which some players will find intriguing.

Zon-Kuthon's worshippers just creep me out, even though his backstory is somewhat interesting.


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Calling Cayden the "God of bros" or just "That drunk guy who lucked into godhood" is really selling him short.

Cayden is a god that didn't let godhood change him. He still pretty much the same things he did when he was alive, without letting the power go to his head.

Cayden is THE god of adventurers. He embodies everything an adventurer wishes he could be.

He fights for freedom from tyranny, values strength in battle, and embodies the sheer lust for exploring dank caves and tombs, lost cities, and forgotten planes that every adventurer needs to have.

At the same time, he knows when to let loose, but what many seem to always ignore is that he also preaches moderation. There's a time and a place to get drunk, and there's a time and a place to keep your head, stay focused, and do what you need to do.

Though my favorite aspect is also one of his simplest: He's like every god's little brother. Some tolerate him, many love to hang with him, and few are outright opposed to him.

Rather than god(desses) like Pharasma, Asmodeus, or Gozreh, Cayden isn't a force of nature, or someone who may as well be a force composed entirely from his Domains, Cayden is a role model for adventurers and even common citizens of Golarion more than anything else.


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I think that you're downplaying Cayden's genuine nature and humanity by a lot. Considering that most of the other deities are wind and ocean personified/a former human that saw into forever/tentacled monsters disguising as a naked elf(Headcanoned since I've read it from Gorbacz some time ago), and that even the ascended gods are guys that monked so hard they became gods, being relatable to people both IC and OOC is a huge character trait.

There's this post by CalebTGordan that does a good way to tell why Cayden is good.

CalebTGordan wrote:

Cayden is more than just the god of alcohol, as many have pointed out here already.

He is a god of choosing your own fate, of not being owned by anyone else, of being your own person, or being content with yourself.

He is the god of people who fight for worthy causes, of the lone sword wielding and good hearted scoundrels, and the adventurously curious explorers who go and do just because they can.

He is the guy at the bar who everyone loves not because of some fake image he has built but because he deserves it. He really would start a fight with that guy who is harassing the pretty server girl. He truly would buy a drink for those who are down on their luck, celebrating something special, or just because your new and he likes you. And he knows your name and makes you feel special even of you only met him once. He would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it, fight by your side if no one else would, and is there just at the time you need him most in your life.

He may not be lawful or have a restrictive morality system. He may not behave himself the best, or make the smartest decisions. He certainly doesn't have a problem with picking fights and chasing tail. But he is altruistic, joyful, and trustworthy.

As for the alcohol, I look at it like someone posted above. He isn't the god of alcohol poisoning, of dangerous alcoholism, or of alcohol abuse. He knows when he has had enough, and cautions his followers to know their limits as well. After all, alcohol can loosen you up and help the celebrations move in fun directions, but it can also push you to be so far off your game that you can't function. How can you fight for the freedom of others if you are held bound by alcohol's grasp? Or how can you expect to fight when you are so drunk you can't hold a blade to save your life, literally? No, alcohol is more of a symbol. It frees you of your inhibition, just like how he expects his followers to free others from shackles.

Remember that stories that become legends are often exaggerated. It is possible that he wasn't nearly as sloshed as the legends say he was. In reality, he may have drank just to his limit, just enough to free him of any doubt or worry he had about the test. When he came from the test a god, he was surprised at the fact that he succeeded and not the hung over confused god that people make him out to be. Only he knows, and I see him as the type of person who lets the legends grow as they are told.


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Draco Bahamut wrote:
The NPC wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Desna is fleeting, removed, and honestly she's a tentacled good-natured alien from 9th dimension who wears this winged elf disguise just so she doesn't scare everybody. And she still doesn't quite get those totes adorbs three-dimensional carbon-based beings of this reality...but she loves them. Hey, is that the Black Butterfly? I need to run after her, byyyyeeee!!!
Vigorous head cannon you got there. ;)
He is right.

Wait, me or Gorbacz?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Desna being an entity from Far Away who wandered into our reality and took the form of a winged elf as to appear familiar to mortals is no headcanon, it's been confirmedzored several times in print.

The tentacle part yeah, I might have gone with some licencia poetica there.

(But seriously, how can you imagine her true form without tentacles?)


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Not hard for me. :-)


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Cayden's the god who'd probably agree with the proposition that gods are just people who are stronger than the rest.

He's also arguably the most popular Golarian deity in my group - about half the group has played lay followers or divine casters of Cayden.

I think part of it comes down to: Cayden isn't your master. He's your friend.

@ Gorbacz - Mothra doesn't have tentacles, so pretty easy =P

Silver Crusade

I have been drawn to Cayden Cailean for the combined fact that yeah, he accidentally became a deity but he didn't become a total tool and because while he is a roguish mercenary he has a code of honor. Even though he is Chaotic he is still good.
He is the kind of god I would like to have at my back because you can have fun when he is around but also know that if some nasty brutish jerk of an orc berserker tries to crush your skull in because he doesn't like how short you are, Cayden will be their to help you stand against your enemy, sword in hand. Yeah he will also have a tankard of ale in the other but since it actually makes him a better fighter, why not?


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It'd be funny to imagine an aboleth whose favorite god was Cayden Cailean—not exactly for "moral" reasons, per se, but because the aboleth sees Cayden Cailean as the only god who's honest about what gods "really" are. The issues that are important to everyone else do not matter to aboleths. It just digs Cayden's "we're really just extra strong mortals" platform.


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Zhangar wrote:
I think part of it comes down to: Cayden isn't your master. He's your friend.

That right there is the reason Cayden Cailean has struck such a chord with me. When a worshipper of his dies and goes to his realm, they don't live out eternity knowing that they're helping their god, they drink with him, boast with him, and spar with him. He's the god that cares about all his worshippers, regardless of race, class or alcohol tolerance.


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Gorbacz wrote:

Desna being an entity from Far Away who wandered into our reality and took the form of a winged elf as to appear familiar to mortals is no headcanon, it's been confirmedzored several times in print.

The tentacle part yeah, I might have gone with some licencia poetica there.

(But seriously, how can you imagine her true form without tentacles?)

You were starting to go into "good great old one" territory there for a second and that has denied many times, so it threw me off.

So we were both right?


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Rynjin wrote:

Desna fights for freedom from tyranny, values strength in battle, and embodies the sheer lust for exploring everywhere that every adventurer needs to have.

At the same time, Desna knows when to let loose.

Think I'm going to stick with "banality of divinity" for things to use him for... 'cause nothing else here is really striking a chord or, honestly, coming off as particularly unique to Cayden. Might just be the local distaste for back-slapping over-chumminess (and the fact that booze does a hell of a lot of damage hereabouts might also factor in), but pretty much nobody in my orbit has much use for the guy. *shrug* It is what it is.

But! KEEP 'EM COMING! Boost your boy!

And Norgorber. Poor Norgie. Only three real attempts at defense so far...


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Defense: Norgorber's name sounds like something the Swedish Chef would say.


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The NPC wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:
The NPC wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Desna is fleeting, removed, and honestly she's a tentacled good-natured alien from 9th dimension who wears this winged elf disguise just so she doesn't scare everybody. And she still doesn't quite get those totes adorbs three-dimensional carbon-based beings of this reality...but she loves them. Hey, is that the Black Butterfly? I need to run after her, byyyyeeee!!!
Vigorous head cannon you got there. ;)
He is right.
Wait, me or Gorbacz?

Yes.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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We call him Norgoburger.

Dark Archive

Yes but what of good old Erastil?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I do see Cayden as the god of adventurers on Golarion. Desna is about seeing and exploring new places, but Cayden is about having AN ADVENTURE while doing so. Lust for life and thrill of living that other gods just don't have in the same measure, and at the same time valuing that life in others.

Remember at the beginning of Lord of the Rings, when Frodo shouts out "I'm going on AN ADVENTURE!!!!!" That's Cayden.
A Desnan would have shouted, "I'm going on a JOURNEY!"
That's the difference.
=====================================================
Norgober, on the other hand, is the god of "I'm more clever then you". Thieves, assassins, poisoners, manipulators. He's the god of guildmasters and mercantilists, of those men who think raw intelligence and no moral scruples to get in the way of what they want is best. He's not a god of kings, he's the god of shadows behind thrones, intelligence operatives, guildmasters - those people who are sure that they are smarter then everyone else, even if they aren't stronger, and will get what they want in the end because of it.

This is very different from someone like Asmodeus, who is both strong and intelligent, and can act both openly and secretly because of it. Norgober is the patron of those who don't have that open strength, but will act when they think they've stacked the deck far enough in their favor. Some call it cowardice, others analytical, others opportunistic. In any event, with no moral scruples to stop them from getting what they want, and always going after weakness instead of strength.

Play Norgie would be hard as an opponent because it would be ruthless, intelligent, and without scruples. An opponent who doesn't want to fight you, but simply rob you blind, wipe out your friends and family when you can't defend them all, destroy your reputation, and then murder you with poison when you've sunk to the bitter depths of despair is not something for crossing blades with.

So, of course you'd rather choose another god, especially a demonic one who loves the thrill of combat! Norgie's type want to murder you, they don't want to FIGHT you. And that's a very different mindset to play.

===Aelryinth


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NenkotaMoon wrote:
Yes but what of good old Erastil?

"Banjos! You hear banjos?"

Dark Archive

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
NenkotaMoon wrote:
Yes but what of good old Erastil?
"Banjos! You hear banjos?"

Hey, nothing wrong with some good ol' banjos playing.


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Honestly, Erastil's one of those that I don't find personally appealing (a first for ranger-style deities,I might add!) but I see why he exists and have things I can do with his faith that interest me...


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Aelryinth wrote:


=====================================================

Play Norgie would be hard as an opponent because it would be ruthless, intelligent, and without scruples. An opponent who doesn't want to fight you, but simply rob you blind, wipe out your friends and family when you can't defend them all, destroy your reputation, and then murder you with poison when you've sunk to the bitter depths of despair is not something for crossing blades with.

So, of course you'd rather choose another god, especially a demonic one who loves the thrill of combat! Norgie's type want to murder you, they don't want to FIGHT you. And that's a very different mindset to play.

Book "When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm talking about God?

They'll come at you sideways.
It's how they think. It's how they move.
Sidle up and smile. Hit you where you're weak.
Sort of man they're like to send believes hard.
Kills and never asks why."

Mal "It's of interest to me how much you seem to know about that world."

Book "I wasn't born a Shepherd, Mal."

Mal "Have to tell me about that sometime."

Book "No, I don't."

Malcom Reynolds and Shepherd Book, Serenity (2005)


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I don't like Norgorber's name but he's one of my favorite of the Golarion deities. In my Golarion he's all about secrets - the other aspects are just misdirection, in my way of looking at things (it's no surprise that he even keeps secrets from his clergy, to the point of happily letting them worship completely false depictions of himself).

I haven't had any need to flesh it out, but I suspect his love of secrets is all about power for himself and some unfathomable, "wheels-within-wheels" kind of plan. He's obviously wicked (hence the depraved, heinous nature of his misdirections) but I'm happy to leave him as mysterious - to me that's his most essential feature.

He differs from Asmodeus or the various Demonic powers in that regard because although they manipulate and lie, it's easy to find out what their ultimate goals are. They're openly dishonest - relying on mortals' weaknesses to lead them astray.

Norgorber's plots are more thoroughly deceptive, in my view. I also think he's more selfishly motivated than the other evil powers. I think he lies and deceives in pursuit of some obscure, hidden plan that's ultimately all about him - the others take a certain pleasure in corrupting mortal souls, but in my conception Norgorber really has no interest in anyone other than himself, nor in any "greater cause" beyond his own interests.

Liberty's Edge

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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
We call him Norgoburger.

I know, right?

Pretty much every time someone says his name in my group it comes out differently;

Norboborker
Norgoburgler
Narbogarbler
Norgogobbler
Nargolurker

Et cetera.


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

We call him Norgoburger.

Careful -- too much of that could give you a heart attack.


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Galnörag wrote:
I'm not sure the god of Bro's is a fair characterization of Cayden, I think that god would be more CN at best not GN. If Cayden was a bro, he would be the bro who holds your hair while you puke. Yes drinking is central to his philosophy, but so is good and liberation. In the River Kingdoms where freedom is sacrosanct he is popular. In Andor, especially along the Chelaxian boarder where the freed slaves live he is popular.

Just because he's THIS GUY (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/This_Guy) doesn't mean he's not the God of Bros.

I mean... and this IS intended as a criticism of Golarion... there's a god of almost everything. So... there's gotta be a God of Bros. That beer that Cayden's got is Aroden's, and he's holding it til his bro get's back. That's how bro Cayden is.

the example countries you've given are places where the Bro is venerated and cherished. You find Bros in Andoran. You find them in the River Kingdoms. You aren't going to find so many bros in Cheliax or Nidal or Galt - and coincidentally, that's where you don't find a lot of Cayden's people.

Lantern Lodge

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Aside from adventurers, Cayden is the god of the common man.

He's the patron of freed slaves, of common laborers, of the weekend, and of holidays. Much is focused on the alcohol, but the alcohol is not the ends- it's the means. Cayden is the god of camaraderie.

Aside:
"Bro" has gotten such a negative connotation in the last few years. You can call him the 'god of bros,' but he's not the 'god of 'dude-bros,' he's actually pretty chill. He's the bro you share a foxhole (and a flask of whiskey) with, not your slovenly drunken wingman at a dive bar.

Norgorber (Nore-Gore-Bore if I'm saying it out loud) is an excellent sociopathic antagonist deity. Asmodeous is openly lying and relying on your inability to notice. Zon-Kuthon is sadistic. Rovagug and Lamashtu are outwardly destructive. Urgathoa is the portrait of hedonistically careless evil. Norgorber fits the corrupt politicians (think Maven Black-Briar) who are the monetary power behind theives guilds and assassin's guilds. He's the whisper in the ear of the vizier who whispers in the ear of an otherwise lawful king. He's the subtle evil which is most insipid because it's the least notable.

In short, he's perfect for a BBEG that you don't want your party to know about. He's the chessmaster, and the people they meet are just pawns. And they probably don't even know it.

Dark Archive

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Why is it that you don't like Erastil?

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