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Okay, I'm building an investigator for a campaign that my DM will be running after our current Rise of the Rune Lords. I'm playing a Half Elf investigator and i was wondering if there were any suggestions on my build, as I've never played an investigator before. We haven't done any of our stats yet, but my racial +2 bonus is definitely going into Int.
I'm using the Empiricist Archetype.
The skill focus racial bonus feat is going toward perception, and I'm taking the Wary alternate racial trait.
The talents I am planning on taking and their corresponding levels are as follows:
3-Underworld Inspiration
5-Expanded Inspiration
7-Amazing Inspiration
9-Combat Inspiration
11-Edetic Recollection
13-Tenacious Inspiration
15-Empathy
17-Applied Engineering
19-Greater Combat Inspiration
I'm not sure of which feats I'll be taking, what traits I'll choose (if available), or what my main weapon is going to be yet. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated for all of these things. Also, what are the most important ability scores for this build? I'm guessing Int>Dex>Str>Con>Wis>Cha
Note: I plan on being more of a support character, but one who can also hold his own in a fight. The campaign will be taking place in a war, and is self-insert, so I may not go with certain options for the sole reason that it wouldn't be something I would personally do.
Welcome Investigators are a Super awesome class!
First you need to decide if you want to be a STR investigator or a DEX investigator. AKA which stat do you want for your accuracy.
STR = more damage
Dex = more AC less damage (also best with a 1 level dip into inspired blade swashbuckler)
Secondly, why were you wanting int to be the focused stat? I feel int should be a secondary stat, primary should be your attacking stat. But if you have a case for why INT I'd love to hear it.
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Chess is right. I was going to mention the Swashigator. Maxs the Dex build really pop.
I recommend the trait student of philosophy. Read it and you will know why I suggested it.
For feats I recommend Potion Glutton. You can be Neutral and take it. Just secretly worship...you are not required to be a priest about it.
If you go Swashigator then fencing grace level 1, potion glutton lvl 3, extra talent-quick study lvl 5.
I recommend extra talents for some other feats or great fortitutde (your weakest save). Improved critical rapier is good when u qualify.
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If you a building you character for combat make you combat stat first 14-16 int will be more then enough. I played a dual talented human to get 18 Dex and 18 Int. Focus on Dex or strength and get that con up to 14. It should be your third stat
If it's a dex build get fencing grace quick. You can get it at 1 with a swashbuckler dip or by level 3 as a human or 5 with another race. Quick study as soon as you have studied combat is basically mandatory. Mutagen is one of your strongest talents so try and find space for that. I took extra talent many times a feat f my investigator.
Others have suggested potion glutton I would avoid it because I has obvious errors in its writing.
All the skill stuff you want is great and can be boosted with further with clear ear which you can craft. Then use blood boiling pills for initiative. Put that skill focus from being a half elf to good use by putting the in umd. Perception, diplomacy, and skills are ok but umd really helps an investigator abuse wands.
I second student of philosophy pick up a second trait to help with saves either fort or the one that let's you reroll a failed save.
Other feats to consider are lunge, combat reflexes(nice with long arm), extra talent sickening strike helps the whole team. Extra traits can be great reactionary/save boost/bruising intellect are all good.
If your looking for something outside the box also consider a 1 level dip into drunken brute unchained barbarian you get temp hp, +2 to hit and damage, bonus you your will saves, the level dip bumps your fort save which you will need and you can drink potions as a move action. You also get access to a furious weapon. At level six with one round of buffing you can have +20 to hit.
Finally, buy a wand of alchemical allocation. Use it for heroism and keen edge until you get a keen weapon or improve Crit. This helps of set any caster level lost to multi classing.
Investigators are probably my current favorite class, just an excellent class to play, and extremely well rounded.
Firstly you want to determine what kind of investigator you are doing: STR mutagen, or the DEX Swashigator as Fruian calls it.
The critical thing your build is missing though is lvl 5, Extra Investigator Talent: Quick Study. This is 100% nonnegotiable. Studied Combat is a massive boon, and getting it on a swift action helps immensely.
Student of Philosophy as mentioned can be a critical trait if you are planning on being a face, or wish to participate in facey exchanges. Alternatively, if you're more into intimidating people, Bruising Intellect as a trait will get you INT to intimidate which helps immensely for intimidate builds.
As for Potion Glutton: It's nice and all, but don't buy into the hype. It only works on potions after all, and extracts aren't potions. Further, it requires worship of Urgathoa which everyone isn't cool with obviously.
Potion glutton does mention elixers and potables
2nd just cause you worship something doesn't mean you have to vocalize it or do much of anything. Your not a cleric so you do not draw power from the dirty. Your just a believer and silent observer.
Still not extracts though. You could argue "potables" are extracts, but I'm doubtful.
Also deliberately worshipping Urgathoa is just hamfisted anyway you sugar coat it. Most DMs would never allow it since 1. Evil god, 2. It's minmaxy as all hell and they know the only reason your character is doing this is so you can take Potion Glutton. At least Paladins and Fey Foundling don't require specific deities, despite how again hamfisted every Paladin magically being found in the forest is.
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Just say your real issue is with min maxers.
And yes a good Many players on the forums would be glad to argue that point with you about other potables includes the extract.
But I guess you and your DM just ignores the slavery, devil worship and debauchery that is Cheliax. No PC in thier right mind might hail from regions where worshiping evil is a normal thing.
Nothing wrong with a neutral person who loves to eat and drink in a rather gluttonous manner. Saying a quiet prayer before his 10gp feast in front of starving orphans begging for scraps.
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Potion glutton does mention elixers and potables
2nd just cause you worship something doesn't mean you have to vocalize it or do much of anything. Your not a cleric so you do not draw power from the dirty. Your just a believer and silent observer.
Still not extracts though. You could argue "potables" are extracts, but I'm doubtful.
Also deliberately worshipping Urgathoa is just hamfisted anyway you sugar coat it. Most DMs would never allow it since 1. Evil god, 2. It's minmaxy as all hell and they know the only reason your character is doing this is so you can take Potion Glutton. At least Paladins and Fey Foundling don't require specific deities, despite how again hamfisted every Paladin magically being found in the forest is.
Everything that PF does with potions should apply to extracts since they're basically the same...but they don't. It's stupid, it really is, and I know it's from a game balance standpoint, but Potion Glutton came out AFTER the alchemist/investigator existed, so there's no excuse for it. I'm sure in PFS it shouldn't work, and really it's a feat that gives quicken extract with no cost, but really in any logical sense it should work.
As for worshiping an evil god, meh.
The fact that for some reason venerating this god means you can open your throat a little wider is needless, it adds nothing to the feat, and for no golarion gods shouldn't even be an issue. Call it minxax-y if you want, the feat shouldn't have a flavor requirement which adds nothing to it. Your tolerance for 'hamfistedness' is up to you, but if your GM lets it work the way it should, there's no reason it shouldn't.
And as others have said already, quick study is mandatory at 5th level, no exceptions. Check out my guide for more advice on this considerably fun class.
Just say your real issue is with min maxers.
And yes a good Many players on the forums would be glad to argue that point with you about other potables includes the extract.
But I guess you and your DM just ignores the slavery, devil worship and debauchery that is Cheliax. No PC in thier right mind might hail from regions where worshiping evil is a normal thing.
Nothing wrong with a neutral person who loves to eat and drink in a rather gluttonous manner. Saying a quiet prayer before his 10gp feast in front of starving orphans begging for scraps.
Except pretty much every thread regarding the feat devolves into "Ask your GM" because pretty much everyone says "Yes it works by RAW, but I wouldn't allow it, or "No, it isn't RAW." Until Paizo actually covers the issue, it is a highly volatile suggestion, especially in a PFS situation.
As for Cheliax, we just don't allow evil characters typically, and being from Cheliax doesn't mean you have to agree with the status quo of that society, that'd be stupid.
The psychic detective archetype is pretty awesome too.
I was having Int as my highest stat because we have plenty of hard hitters and such, and Int is heavily relied on for the support side of this class, it appears. I'm most likely going to go with a Dex build.
Also, i guess i forgot to mention I'm playing Chaotic Neutral and could easily worship an evil deity if it was required.
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especially in a PFS situation
I do not believe the OP stated it was for PFS. His DM seems to be running entire campaigns.
Until Paizo actually covers the issue.
True. I have started a FAQ thread begging for more clarification on Alchemist and crafting.
They did make a FaQ on Accelerated Drinker but due to the nature of the wording it requires its own FaQ. The same reason that Wayang Spell hunter is worded different than Magical lineage so the effects would work together.
But until then each individual group gets to have the discussion. Even if it is as you say, "a highly volatile suggestion". It still is a decent suggestion. Being able to chug down potions at swift speed is still good for the Swashigator who wields a 1 handed melee weapon and going into melee. Potions of Cure can help keep him alive.
we just don't allow evil characters typically
That might be for PFS and your group. But not all groups out there insta-block the Evil alignment.
and being from Cheliax doesn't mean you have to agree with the status quo of that society, that'd be stupid.
But you COULD agree with it tho. or even agree on parts of it and abhors the rest. But I'm not seeing whats stupid about agreeing with the ideals of your birth country.
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That definitely makes a good build but every investigator being a swashbuckling worshipper of gluttony and undeath is getting kinda corny.
This reminds me of the arguement magic players have. Netdeck/meta players verses Homebrewers.
Homebrewers take lots of pride in building their own deck. While Netdeckers take the current Meta of winning decks because they have been crafted with statics and by professional players.
The home brewers usually brow beat Meta Players cause they "are not unique." (Usually this browbeating comes from those sitting in the lower rankings) While Meta players enjoy beating the crap out of under performing Homebrewers with "flavorful" ideas. They just enjoy play a deck that actually runs consistently trying to take luck out of it as much as possible.
Much like Pathfinder players who prefer using builds that are known to be very functional. The kind of Build that just performs to a Standard.
But From a Roleplay perspective you can ignore the flavor text and just role play how ever you see fit. The paper might say "Barbarian" but does that mean every barbarian has to be AM Smash Stupid...or could you role play one with a 10 int and give him a love for History and using a more civilized tongue. Cause if you want to talk about stereotypes that are getting old. The Barbarian who is nothing but Big muscles and absolutely no thinking abilities beyond, Eat, drink, kill does gets pretty old.
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That definitely makes a good build but every investigator being a swashbuckling worshipper of gluttony and undeath is getting kinda corny.
No worse than every Magus being a devout scimitar wielding faux priest of Sarenrae. When options with forced flavor are made better than options without forced flavor, looks like we're all worshiping the sun or partying with the glutton god. Feats this good shouldn't be tied to a deity, full stop. I have a serious problem with GMs who are married to preexisting flavor and won't allow some deviation from it.
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No worse than every Magus being a devout scimitar wielding faux priest of Sarenrae. When options with forced flavor are made better than options without forced flavor, looks like we're all worshiping the sun or partying with the glutton god. Feats this good shouldn't be tied to a deity, full stop. I have a serious problem with GMs who are married to preexisting flavor and won't allow some deviation from it.
Yes and Yes!
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I'm not suggesting that it's wrong or anything to play for optimization, I just roll my eyes sometimes because the game kinda forces a lot of characters to take so many of the same options when they're that good.
There are a few things That are very Tax like on certain builds.
There are few things I think should be Built in. Like Infusion.
The Investigator was designed as a Skill/Support class and yet it can not share it's Extracts till after level 3 and you have to use one of your talent choices or a feat to pick it up. Mutagens are understandable for being just on yourself...but Sometimes it is better for a team mate to receive an extract buff than it is for you to use it. Like passing out a cure light extract at level 1 to your badly injured fighter.
But since the classes do not gain Infusion naturally they tend to turn to more selfish builds that all extracts go to the alchemist/investigator.
I like the new Lamplighter archetype in Heroes of the Streets. Thematically, it's a lot of fun: at 8th level, your lantern can launch Searing Light spells. At 11th, your lantern is the focus for a Judgement Light spell. Also, if you want to be the one going first often, this is the archetype for you:
Ready for the Revelation (Ex)
At 3rd level, a lamplighter can use inspiration on initiative checks without spending a use of inspiration. He can use his Intelligence modifier in place of his Dexterity modifier on initiative checks. At 6th level, if the lamplighter has Quick Draw, he can draw a weapon as part of his initiative check. At 9th level, the lamplighter isn't flat-footed before he acts in the first round of combat. At 12th level, the lamplighter adds his Intelligence bonus as well as his Dexterity bonus to initiative checks. At 15th level, the lamplighter can act last during the surprise round even if he is otherwise unaware combat has started. At 18th level, the lamplighter is not limited to just a move or standard action during the surprise round—he can act normally.
This ability replaces keen recollection and trap sense.
As for Dex to damage, I do not believe you need to invest in and of the Grace feats. All you need is Weapon Finesse and spend the gps to add Agile weapon property to your chosen weapon. Then, you have Dex to damage without the feat tax.
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A +1 agile Rapier costs: 8,000gp and that kind of Gold to 1 item usually does not happen till around 7th level. And typically you will want other enchants other than Agile
You can suffer for 7 levels
or
You can Dip 1 Level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler at level 1 and take the feat Fencing Grace at Level 1 and skip Weapon Finesse all together. So with the Dip there is just as much "Tax" as taking Weapon Finesse and paying 8k on a item way later.
The dip adds so much more than Dex to damage too. It adds Darring Do, parry and Riposte, a D10 HD (full HP level 1.), Buckler Proficiency, Dodging Panache, Inspired Finesse (which gives the benefit of Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse with a Rapier)
So you can be combat efficient Level 1 or Wait till level 4+ and 8,000gp to be decent in combat.
This is why players choose Either STR based builds or the Swashigator (1 level dip Inspired Blade Swashbuckler) for Dex builds.
They tend to be better of the builds and most combat efficient.
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As for Dex to damage, I do not believe you need to invest in and of the Grace feats. All you need is Weapon Finesse and spend the gps to add Agile weapon property to your chosen weapon. Then, you have Dex to damage without the feat tax.Personally, I'd much prefer taking the feat so that I can use multiple types of the weapon (silver, cold iron, adamantine, etc) and not lose 90% of my efficiency. In most games, I rarely get to the point where I have time to get a +3-5 enhancement.
I have used both the feat and agile weapon property. The feat is overall nicer but gets going later level 11. This is really late for PFS and many peoples home games. If I use an agile weapon I keep a potion of Keen Edge to use with alchemical allocation to cover backup weapons (my back up weapons tend to have lower level enchantments anyway compared to my main one). Investigators are good with skills and I often find I know what special material I will need before I go into a fight.
The other option is a Scabbard of Keen Edges you can get this around level 10 if you save. 3 times a day you can get 50 min of keen edge. This will be more then enough in most situations.
That's how I see the keen options
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I have used both the feat and agile weapon property. The feat is overall nicer but gets going later level 11. This is really late for PFS and many peoples home games. If I use an agile weapon I keep a potion of Keen Edge to use with alchemical allocation to cover backup weapons (my back up weapons tend to have lower level enchantments anyway compared to my main one). Investigators are good with skills and I often find I know what special material I will need before I go into a fight.
The other option is a Scabbard of Keen Edges you can get this around level 10 if you save. 3 times a day you can get 50 min of keen edge. This will be more then enough in most situations.
That's how I see the keen options
Just as I prefer Fencing grace on my dex build the Swashigator I also like Improved Critical-Rapier. As a Inspired Blade you only regain panche if you critical.
Like someone mentioned you can rotate in the special materials if you come across a wide variety of DR types. A MW Rapier and Silver rapier are cheap in the long run of things.
I use the Keen Edge Potion like you do till I qualify.
And I tend to make my main weapon a +1 Adamantine ____________ Rapier.
Filling in the Blank with:
Inspired
Flamboyant (Greater if it can be afforded)
Answering
Dueling
All if dependant on Gold and how I am feeling. ANother viable choice is always Holy and the Burst style weapons since you should have a 15-20 critical threat range.
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Just as I prefer Fencing grace on my dex build the Swashigator I also like Improved Critical-Rapier. As a Inspired Blade you only regain panche if you critical.
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Right with you on the fencing grace and swashbuckler build. For special materials I buy masterwork cold iron, and silversheen. I like the silver sheen because you don't lose the point of damage and you have something to fight rust monsters. With my main weapon main weapon a +1 Adamantine ____________ Rapier.
I also played with having an offensive rapier (furious and inspired) and a defensive one (inspired and answering) at higher levels . It's was fun but expensive.
I prefer an oil of Versatile Weapon for dealing with DR and keeping your main weapon in-hand. Even works if you need to deal bludgeoning damage or something.
I do tend to grab a cold iron weapon and something silver & bludgeoning at lower levels.
There's a cheap alchemical item that can protect weapons/armor from rust monsters for 24 hours. (edit: Bladeguard from the APG)
A suggestion for you... Instead of putting Skill Focus: Perception, consider putting it into Linguistics and then take the Orator feat. It's an amazing combo, because you automatically get to use free Inspiration when you utilize Orator. This way you don't have to focus on Charisma at all.
The Inspired Blade is not a bad investment at all. It'll allow you to get Inspired on your weapon quicker, and that is a massive boon to half-elf investigators in combat. The half-elf FCB is amazing when coupled with Combat Inspiration and an Inspired weapon. You spend 1 Inspiration point to get double your Inspiration rolls to damage. And when you add in 1/4 your level to all Inspiration rolls, it's a nice little addition.
Clarification: my DM and running party all meet in person and do not use Pathfinder Society stuff.
also, I do like the skill focus linguistics/ Orator combo.
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I have used both the feat and agile weapon property. The feat is overall nicer but gets going later level 11. This is really late for PFS and many peoples home games. If I use an agile weapon I keep a potion of Keen Edge to use with alchemical allocation to cover backup weapons (my back up weapons tend to have lower level enchantments anyway compared to my main one).
Keen Edge potions don't exist because the target is an object (or objects). Keen Edge oils can exist, but they don't work with Alchemical Allocation because they are spread on the item rather than imbibed.
If you decide to go Strength-based instead of Dex, remember that Investigators are not that limited by armor. Taking the Armor Expert trait and a Mithral Breastplate gives you that bit extra survivability for little investment.
A Fortuitous Longspear, Strength Mutagen, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Longarm/Enlarge Person (from an Admixture vial) turn you into an area-denial specialist. And that's before you start using Cornugon Smash and Sickening Offensive to debuff your targets.
Something that people seem to be missing time and time again in this post, I'm not that worried about being a heavy hitter, I just don't want to get absolutely destroyed in a one-on-one fight. There will be party members built specifically for damage that will be with me at all times. I'm going to be taking leadership at 7th level and my cohort will be a Cavalier.
The issue with Investigators is that they're not by default much good in a fight. They absolutely need some feat and talent investment to function effectively in combat, unlike a dedicated martial class. They are however very good skillmonkeys with almost no additional investment, which is why people are giving more combat-orientated advice. Get the combat stuff early then you're free to grab all the skill-based tricks.
Quick Study and Mutagen are pretty universal - they're almost a talent tax as you'd have to be mad to miss them. Ditto with Infusion unless you're playing "selfish".
Swashigator with Fencing Grace is probably the quickest way to get a combat-capable Investigator off the ground. Strength-based with a 2-hander is probably next as they only really need Mutagen, Quick Study and Power Attack to work well. These are what I would consider the minimum investments to function in combat beyond ineffective moral support.
"Help I want to do combat but I don't want to invest anything into combat." This is what it seems you are trying to say, Am I correct about this?
In Pathfinder if you want to "not get destroyed" in combat you need to be good in combat. Your options to not get destroyed are:
1)Have a super high AC and not get destroyed in the literal sense that you're hard to kill, but you don't really provide a threat or damage of your own.
2)Invest in combat to be decent at combat. Because for you to be decent at combat you need to be able to do a few things. Not Die in one hit, not get hit all the time, be able to hit things, have your damage be enough to matter.
If you don't have the HP and AC you die to fast if focused. If you can't hit anything then enemy will kill you/ignore you and kill others first. If you don't do meaningful damage (like doing 1d8 from a crossbow) then they can ignore you and kill others/kill you without caring about your counter attacks.
So if you aren't going to invest anything into combat you should have no expectations of being able to hold your own in a 1v1. Because who will you be fighting in your 1v1 or other combats? I expect enemies who are made for combat. Thus if you aren't invested as well, you will be destroyed.
Also as Corvino mentioned. It's far more effective to boost your combat powers than your skills. Lets compare some of your choices with a combat approach.
Mutagen instead of Underworld Inspiration.
UI gives you free inspiration on Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand checks. A big question about this is how often are you using these skills? you get a free bonus to these skills but do you need to bonus to be free? I know for my investigator these skills only come up rarely, if ever. So I can use inspiration like normal for the skill if I really needed it.
Opposed to Mutagen. +2 attack and damage and at least+2 if not +4 to AC. I feel that this is more useful than using the inspiration you might save with that talent in combat.
Expanded Inspiration to quick study. Quick study lets you have action advantage. You can move to someone and attack them at full power opposed to needing a move action PER TARGERT! So once you drop your target you're able to move on to the next easier. Opposed to getting a bonus to some skills. This time they skills are more useful I feel than Underworld, Perception and Diplomacy are probably far more used. But do you really need to extra bump? With Heightened Awareness and Heroism going you have a +4 to perception with another +2 from race and a +2 to your diplomacy. If you have max ranks in those you're already looking at about +15 at lv5 for diplomacy and about 20 for perception. Plus you can still add inspiration for those rolls you really feel you need it.
TLDR
If you feel we're not giving helpful advice, you need to do a better job defining what advice you're looking for and what you are willing to do to achieve your stated goal.
Also, you're not a support type character with your proposed build, you're set up to be the skill spotlight dude. Nothing in your build is going to help anyone else. You don't have infusion discovery, the improved Aid Another abilities, or a way to do combat maneuvers. These are the ways for an investigator to support and help his team. Now if you thought support meant, "handle all skills for the beatsticks" then you're build does kinda meet that.
They are correct: Quick Study and Mutagen are the best talents to grab at the earliest opportunity. In fact, your buddies may even start saying "Hold up, the investigator did what?!" when they have those in action.
I had a PFS GM looked shocked when I brought the Pregen Investigator and used all his buffs. An investigator gets tons of awesome buffs, and since he can't target multiple it's more incentivising to go with the good single buffs spells.
If I didn't think I would be using those skills a lot, I wouldn't have bothered. I know my DM, and he tries to make every skill useful if party members are going to use it. Also, Bluff alone is reason to take underworld inspiration, because I have never been in a campaign with any DM where I didn't bluff at least three times per session. Also, I plan on taking the extra inspiration feat, so I'll probably use that for quick study early on.
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If I didn't think I would be using those skills a lot, I wouldn't have bothered. I know my DM, and he tries to make every skill useful if party members are going to use it. Also, Bluff alone is reason to take underworld inspiration, because I have never been in a campaign with any DM where I didn't bluff at least three times per session. Also, I plan on taking the extra inspiration feat, so I'll probably use that for quick study early on.
You mean Extra Investigator Talent?
As far as bluffing I think someone Mentioned Orator feat. Turning Linguistics into Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. Linguistics is a Free inspiration use skill. I am starting Skulls and Shackles with a Swashigator and I plan to pick it up level 3 and just dominate skills for the group while offering a good scout and secondary damage dealer. I just took to Skill focus alternate human trait. Trading off 1 feat for 3 over the course of the campaign. Starting with linguistics for Orator. My second skill focus will go into Profession sailor with Heart of the Fields-> Profession Sailor Buff...Nothing like having the best check on the open seas with a entire group aiding your check.
As far as bluffing I think someone Mentioned Orator feat. Turning Linguistics into Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. Linguistics is a Free inspiration use skill.
I hadn't thought much of Orator before but you bring a great point in that you can just pump Linguistics instead, and be capable of all 3, saving a number of skill points in the process. The inspiration bonus really sweetens the deal, and if your DM uses background skills like mine, Linguistics is always an easy pick.
I hadn't thought much of Orator before but you bring a great point in that you can just pump Linguistics instead, and be capable of all 3, saving a number of skill points in the process. The inspiration bonus really sweetens the deal, and if your DM uses background skills like mine, Linguistics is always an easy pick.
As far as bluffing I think someone Mentioned Orator feat. Turning Linguistics into Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. Linguistics is a Free inspiration use skill.
Yes, that was me. Orator is a phenomenal feat for investigators. It allows you to use all the social interaction options in one skill that gets free inspiration. Plus, it uses your primary/secondary attribute as well. So, with a 16 Int... you can have a +10 bonus to Linguistics at 1st level plus an additional +1d6. That's anywhere from a +11 to +16 bonus to all social interaction skills at 1st level. You cannot beat it. Good luck to you!
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I hadn't thought much of Orator before but you bring a great point in that you can just pump Linguistics instead, and be capable of all 3, saving a number of skill points in the process. The inspiration bonus really sweetens the deal, and if your DM uses background skills like mine, Linguistics is always an easy pick.
This is the exact thinking I was going with when I made the final draft of my Character...I wanted more skill points for myself/group and wanted the synergy of free inspiration. To go about it with skill points in all 3 and taking a Talent to allow inspiration to work on those skills was not what I was wanting...and since I would not be Feinting in combat I wouldn't need the actual bluff skill.
edit: thanks Faelyn for pointing it out to us. I plan to use it...tho I plan for it to come online at level 3 instead of 1....I needed Fencing grace with my 1 level inspired blade dip.
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I play a fairly cheesed out investigator in PFS, level 8 now and I recently took down a particularly nasty boss nearly solo, finishing it off by impaling her with an 83 damage longspear crit. So when I say the Strength investigator works, please believe that I know what I'm talking about.
IMO the investigator/empiricist class has five important and two overrated features:
- Alchemy. This is super powerful. Your extract list is full of the best self-buffs.
- Studied Combat. This makes you pretty much a Full BAB class. It's sublime.
- Discoveries. In particular, Mutagen, Quick Study and Combine Extracts are very powerful.
- Lots of class skills. More than you can max out even with high intelligence. Weirdly though, you suck at tracking.
- Bending the ability score used for skills to Intelligence (empiricist)
- Studied Strike: this is not a good ability. You want to make as many attacks as possible with Studied Combat, not blow it all away. Even on the last round of study you want to use it on AoOs.
- Inspiration: somewhat overrated. You don't get that much of it and the bonuses aren't that good. It's nice but not the Main Feature that people seem to think it is.
Alchemy
You get a lot of very good self-buffs. My favourites, in level order:
1) Shield, Enlarge Person, Longarm, Heightened Awareness
2) Barkskin, Invisibility, Alchemical Allocation, Resist Energy, See Invisibility
3) Heroism, Monstrous Physique (gargoyle!), Absorb Toxicity
4) Freedom of Movement, Improved Invisibility
To maximize your enjoyment of alchemy you want the Combine Extract discovery to accelerate the activation of buffs in the beginning of combat (drinking Longarm + Enlarge Person for example).
Potion Glutton is insanely good. I think it's quite clear that extracts are potables because you can indeed drink them and they're 95% like potions anyway. You do still need to grab (Move) and drink (Swift) them, but that means you can also attack in the same round as you buff. Again, speed advantage, very important. Victory in a combat is often decided in the first few rounds so anything to get you going faster is important. This feat is basically what using Spell Combat is to self-buffing magi or Fervor to war priests. It's so good, I do expect it to lose some oomph if ISG gets a second print run. Meanwhile, I enjoy being a decadent Urgathoa-worshiping noble.
Studied Combat & Quick Study
At level 8 I get a +4 to hit and damage against anyone I spend a Swift action to study. That's so good other classes would kill for that ability. To get maximum use out of this, try to get as many attacks as possible. I like to Monstrous Physique into a gargoyle so I get 4 primary natural attacks. If you're going Dex-based instead, get an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and turn into a Charda. Five attacks and a Dex bonus.
Discoveries
I already mentioned Combine Extracts and Quick Study. Mutagen is also very good: +2 natural AC that stacks with Barkskin, and +4 to a physical stat. I generally go with Strength but I've used Dex when playing up and trying to stay safe. Keep a tight eye on your armor's maximum Dex to AC though.
I haven't settled on a level 9 discovery yet. These three were the most vital ones anyway.
I'm not such a fan of Infusion. I really don't think it's mandatory, and haven't taken it. I think most melee PCs are better off attacking a round extra instead of spending a Move + Standard to drink an extract. If someone has to buff them, let it be a wizard/bard or cleric that can Haste/Blessing of Fervor the whole party at once.
For the record: I've taken it with my alchemist and so far I'm not that impressed there, and investigators need the self-buffs more than (ranged) alchemists. Infusion isn't as good as people say. The coolest thing you can do is hand out extracts of Self-spells like Shield, but for that to work the 2H barbarian or paladin has to spend an entire round buffing. Sometimes workable for a barbarian with nothing to do, but a paladin has his own spells.
Skills
You get more class skills than you can shake a stick at, but you need a discovery to track with Perception, and Survival isn't a class skill or covered by the Empiricist. Very annoying. Note that you will need UMD to use wands and Fly to maneuver effectively.
Inspiration
If you look at the feat support for investigators, you'd think this is the prime class feature. And sure, it's nice to get some free bonuses here and there, and roll some extra dice when you really need them. It's nice for that extra edge, but not enough for every roll. You can work on that with your FCB and then it might mount to something. But I find that with some extracts like Heroism, Focused Scrutiny, Heightened Awareness and Aram Zey's Focus, I'm already rocking all the skill DCs. In practice I spend inspiration mainly to extend Studied Combat against bosses.
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On to defence. We have to defend against several things, and we're good at most of them;
- Normal attacks. With a mithral breastplate + armor expert trait, or mithral kikko if you're going Dex-based, you get a good base AC that will always be up; you can sleep in it, it counts at light armor. Won't slow you down. Add to that Barkskin (10min/level) and a mutagen (stacks, same duration) and it's starting to look good. A Shield extract helps because we're not going S&B; you want that off-hand free to grab more extracts as needed. Apart from that, grab the usual AC magic items.
- Swarms. You don't need an Amulet of Natural Armor because you have Barkskin, so you could use a Swarmbane Clasp
- Incorporeal touch attacks. These are nasty. Have a potion of Mage Armor, an extract of Shield and you're already somewhat there. With Alchemical Allocation you can prebuff with a high-caster level Shield of Faith potion, but that kind of prebuffing takes time. Rely on Heroism and a good Con bonus to make any necessary Fort saves.
- Touch attacks. These are bad. Resist Energy may mitigate the effect. But watch out for these.
- Area attacks. Often energy-based and you have Resist Energy, Heroism and a good Reflex save. Not your worst enemy.
- Negative channel. While you have a strong Will save, the Empiricist may seduce you to dump Wisdom. Sunder their holy symbol!
- Non-compulsive Will (Glitterdust) nasty. Remember that Will is an important save and should be buffed when possible.
- Poison; use Absorb Toxicity if you see it coming to become immune. Delay Poison is also a decent solution. Brew Antitoxin at a discount. I'm assuming you traded out poison immunity like every archetype ever. Finally, you took a good Constitution, Cloak of Resistance and Heroism so your saves should be decent.
- Sneak Attackers: turn into a flying monster and deny them flanks. Kill them. See Invisibility and good Perception can see them coming. Combat Reflexes and a longspear keep them from getting into position.
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Back to attacking. The best defence is a good offence. Kill your enemies before then can attack you effectively. With studied combat and all your buffs, you can keep up with most melee types. You probably have better AC, comparable to-hit and nearly as much damage. Maybe you have twice as many attacks due to shapechanging though. And you also have more out of combat utility.
There are many options, but the big choice is Strength or Dexterity. On the whole, Strength will do more damage and Dex has even more AC. Even more, because the strength build also benefits from good Dex to fuel Combat Reflexes. If you have Enlarge and Longarm, and Studied Combat on every attack against your prime enemy, you want to get as many AoOs as you can. Dex's bonus to AC is also capped by your armor, pretty quickly. It also takes more feats to go through Dex. I'm quite happy with my choice of strength.
Monstrous Physique is a key buff. It lets you keep your gear, but gains you various abilities, including flight, darkvision, scent and natural weapons. A bite attack helps overcome the "dead zone" of a longspear, particularly when enlarged. In addition you get a bonus to Strength or Dexterity, and your armor stays on. It's brilliant.
I mentioned the longspear several times. Mine is now a +1 adamantine shrinking evil outside bane longspear. That means I get through most DR and hardness without fuss, and it shrinks to the size of a dagger, so it fits in my pathfinder pouch. When fully deployed it threatens an area 25ft around me while by bite attack handles the interior zone. With just my own buffs I get to [BAB +6][STR 16 + Mutagen + Monstrous Physique = 22 >> +6][Heroism +2][Longspear +1][Studied Combat +4][Power Attack -2] = +15/+9 to hit, and 1d8+[STR +9][Power Attack +6][Longspear +1][Studied Combat +4] = +20 damage.
If I instead go with the gargoyle form that's Claw +14/Claw +14/Bite +14/Gore +14 for (1d6+14/1d6+14/1d4+14/1d4+14) damage.
Note that most buffs you get from allies like clerics and bards will fully stack with this.
Looking at that, I'm sure you're wondering why there's no Bull's Strength in there. I honestly realized only recently I never used it. I should get a belt. Also an AoMF.
For the Dex-based investigator, you can do mostly the same things. A dip into Inspired Blade Swashbuckler is cool because it snags you two feats and an interesting Riposte ability that works well with Studied Combat. I do see several downsides though:
- Inspired Blade finesse works only on rapiers, so you can't use it with Monstrous Physique on lots of natural weapons.
- Studied Combat is precision damage and doesn't crit, somewhat reducing the charm of the rapier.
- Are you going to pay for Power Attack?
- Investigators are still a caster class. Alchemy rocks. Any dipping into other classes hurts.
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For the Dex-based investigator, you can do mostly the same things. A dip into Inspired Blade Swashbuckler is cool because it snags you two feats and an interesting Riposte ability that works well with Studied Combat. I do see several downsides though:
- Inspired Blade finesse works only on rapiers, so you can't use it with Monstrous Physique on lots of natural weapons.
- Studied Combat is precision damage and doesn't crit, somewhat reducing the charm of the rapier.
- Are you going to pay for Power Attack?
- Investigators are still a caster class. Alchemy rocks. Any dipping into other classes hurts.
It does give you Buckler Proficiency. As well as Darring Do for emergencies. Escape artist can be under rated at time and sometimes escaping is very important as opposed to Dying.
But Yes It does limit your Poly-morphs a Bit. Instead of getting bigger you will probably just choose to get smaller. Getting more dex, AC, and abilities that come with the Form. You can use a rapier in those forms as well. It is true natural attacks get a very high damage output and is favored. Most people just prefer STR builds. But if Damage is not your Number 1 priority then a Dex build can be considered. It is basically the same argument as a Dex verse STR magus. Both have advantages and disadvantages. But usually STR will always out perform in the damage race if that is all your focused on. But I tend to not mind being focused on a single weapon...some people have issue with it...that is a player's style choice.
Power attack is pretty good for damage...when your NOT the main Beatstick tho you can sacrifice some of that Power and act more rogue like with Studied Damage.
Yes Studied Combat does not crit...I've come to terms with it myself... Butterfly sting is nice if you want to be even more helpful to your group. But I play the Swashigator like a better and more efficient Rogue, cause rogues suck.
Your right Dipping does hurt Alchemy slightly...you end up 1 level behind but by level 17 you will do fine with dipping. Also I do not recommend dipping if your going for Level 20 anyways...the Dip is for lower level games and staying relevant in damage prior to 5. Everyone knows the Investigator has poor early levels...Which is actually a thing STR investigators do not struggle with as much as Dex. But a Dex build does suffer a lot.
But all your points are very valid and should be considered by the player rolling up the character.
If I didn't think I would be using those skills a lot, I wouldn't have bothered. I know my DM, and he tries to make every skill useful if party members are going to use it. Also, Bluff alone is reason to take underworld inspiration, because I have never been in a campaign with any DM where I didn't bluff at least three times per session. Also, I plan on taking the extra inspiration feat, so I'll probably use that for quick study early on.
3+ uses of inspiration a day or taking a talent to make it free?
But the best part of inspiration is doing it after the roll, if you rolled really well and it's not a super important or hard bluff you're fine and don't need to spend inspiration for the little extra.Like really how many of those "at least three" bluff checks did you go, "man, I really wish I had an extra 2 or 3 to this roll"?
You have what like 4+1/2 level inspiration a day. at lv4 that's 6 times a day, what are you going to use it on if all the skills you use get it for free? Like Ascalaphus said, "somewhat overrated. You don't get that much of it and the bonuses aren't that good. It's nice but not the Main Feature that people seem to think it is."
You know your campaign better than I so if you feel it's needed then go for it. I just really feel using a talent for this isn't a good use of your resources.
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Butterfly Sting fuelled by Studied Combat? That's ingenious - it would even let you recharge your Panache because you only have to confirm it, not deal damage. Very cute.
I'm a fan of bucklers in general, they don't restrict your hand too much while providing a shield bonus even in the first round of combat where you may not have had the chance to drink Shield yet. Personally I run with a mithral cestus though, to have a non-reach weapon that I can pass off as jewelry with Sleeves of Many Garments. With Combat Reflexes it's important to me to start any combat armed.
I don't think I saw anyone above mention the Inspired Alchemy Feat. It will extend your Alchemy, which is probably your strongest feature, at the cost of Inspiration.
The catch is you have to spend 10 minutes to remix an extract you drank within the last hour. The time commitment can be a hassle in some situations, but a total non-issue often.
The Lamplighter archetype is often overlooked...I wonder why? Have you guys taken a look at the Initiative boosts it gets?! Whoa. The Alchemical Illumination is a fun theme, but Ready for the Revelation is the real reason to play this archtype:
Ready for the Revelation (Ex)
At 3rd level, a lamplighter can use inspiration on initiative checks without spending a use of inspiration. He can use his Intelligence modifier in place of his Dexterity modifier on initiative checks. At 6th level, if the lamplighter has Quick Draw, he can draw a weapon as part of his initiative check. At 9th level, the lamplighter isn't flat-footed before he acts in the first round of combat. At 12th level, the lamplighter adds his Intelligence bonus as well as his Dexterity bonus to initiative checks. At 15th level, the lamplighter can act last during the surprise round even if he is otherwise unaware combat has started. At 18th level, the lamplighter is not limited to just a move or standard action during the surprise round—he can act normally.
This ability replaces keen recollection and trap sense.
Initiative is nice, but I feel it's more of a premium on people who are laying down disruption or people wanting to do AoE attacks before allies get in the way. Otherwise it's nice to get the short term buffs up, but doesn't change much.
Also since it doesn't stack with Empiricist you have to compare if init is worth int to most used skills.