Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville
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There is a certain amount of inherent peer pressure if you are the only person at the table who doesn't want to play hard mode. It doesn't have to be "collusion"--it's just how things are.Then that's when your GM and/or VO need to step in. Bullying people into playing hard mode is something I simply don't stand for and I would expect the same of any of my GMs.
Coercion into hard mode is not the only issue at play here. Dorothy used the term 'inherent' to describe the pressure, but I would use the term 'internal' instead. I felt pretty darned uncomfortable when everyone else at my table of Weapon in the Rift said something to the effect of "Bring it!" when the subject of hard mode came up. My only in-tier character had a practically irreplaceable boon applied to him, and I believe he was between subtiers. As I said, I was more than willing to go play the ACG instead so that the rest of the table could play the scenario in hard mode.
In general, I am attached to my characters to the point that I do not wish to put them at risk greater than my perception of their readiness, or the campaign's ability to let me prepare for the worst-case scenario.
Since this subject came up again . . .
My point was simply that if hard mode was more available it would be taken advantage of. Yours was not the only post referencing hard mode. If my post was in specific reply to yours I would have quoted it.
No snark was intended in my response to your post, Jessex. I simply found the immediacy of a comment saying "we'd almost always want hard mode" to my comment of "I'd be uncomfortable if I have to say no to hard mode every other week" useful for demonstrating my position.
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In the cases of hard mode scenarios I've played, the GM secretly polled the players, rather than openly. That takes away some of the peer pressure, too.That is actually a great idea--I'm going to adopt this technique.
I agree, that is a very good idea. Wish I'd thought of it!
I think the biggest challenge I've seen is identifying which scenarios are difficult and which are easy. Unless you do some up-front research that can be hard to tell and not every GM is going to be understanding if you look up too much about a scenario ahead of time. That cultural expectation makes it much harder to match expected difficulty with the right character (or player).
(I think I'm parroting someone else, but it's been a while now, I'm not sure who said that originally.)
The concern that might arise if hard mode became more prevalent is that 'play-up pressure' becomes 'hard-mode pressure'.
For Weapon in the Rift, I statted out the CR changes for doing hard mode, playing up, and 4 player adjustments. Here is the breakdown for tier 5-6:
- 4 player: ~CR 7
- Normal: ~CR 8
- Hard mode: ~CR 9
- Playing up: ~CR 10 or 11
So, if your group is trying to get a harder game going -- whether by asking for a hard mode or just juggling characters until they have enough APL to force the high tier -- you really want to lobby for more hard mode. It's a challenge but waaaay less dangerous than playing up.
Hard mode might not be your enemy, here.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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If we really want to look at the power curve and how difficult scenarios are/could be, lets get specific.
These are some of the scenarios that could result in TPK.
King of the Stoval Stairs
The Disappeared
Waking Rune (yeah, run that one in hard mode...)
Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch
Sniper in the Deep
Voice in the Void
The Dalsine Affair
The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment
Portal of the Sacred Rune
The Golemworks Incident
The Cultists Kiss
The Refuge of Time
Fortress of the Nail
Glories of the Past Pt II The Price of Friendship
The Elven Entanglement
The Merchant's Wake
Trail by Machine
Hall of the Flesh Eaters
To Judge a Soul Pt I The Lost Legacy
Of these, I have the most ire against King of the Stoval Stairs. If there are more scenarios that are retired, this should be the first to be retired out of all of them.
What do you think?
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If we really want to look at the power curve and how difficult scenarios are/could be, lets get specific.
These are some of the scenarios that could result in TPK.
King of the Stoval Stairs
The Disappeared
Waking Rune (yeah, run that one in hard mode...)
Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch
Sniper in the Deep
Voice in the Void
The Dalsine Affair
The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment
Portal of the Sacred Rune
The Golemworks Incident
The Cultists Kiss
The Refuge of Time
Fortress of the Nail
Glories of the Past Pt II The Price of Friendship
The Elven Entanglement
The Merchant's Wake
Trail by Machine
Hall of the Flesh Eaters
To Judge a Soul Pt I The Lost LegacyOf these, I have the most ire against King of the Stoval Stairs. If there are more scenarios that are retired, this should be the first to be retired out of all of them.
What do you think?
I'd add Kortos Envoy to the list and make it my personal top of the retired scenario list along with another scenario, but that one isn't for difficulty.
Kortos (if you look at average monster stats) has a couple of fights that should be significantly higher CR than their advertised difficulty. (Alongside some other problems IMO)
For reference though I haven't done Storval Stairs
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EDIT: This was in reference to a social hard mode.
Play the social influence scenarios with 4 players for a "hard mode." One such 5th season scenario, at least, makes no adjustment to the total number of influence points you need for the secondary success condition for. 4 player table. Fewer opportunities to gain influence means it's significantly harder to meet the goal when you only have 4 players vs 6.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Random aside musing: Hard Mode for an RP-based Scenarios? :)That actually sounds kind of awesome. I'm curious now what hard mode for something like Library of the Lion or something else skill/RP based would look like.
Playing with 5 players. There's a difficulty adjustment in the time it takes to search rooms for four players, but five players just has a strictly harder time than six. Conversely, seven players/lots of sentient companions makes it easier.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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If we really want to look at the power curve and how difficult scenarios are/could be, lets get specific.
These are some of the scenarios that could result in TPK.
King of the Stoval Stairs
The Disappeared
Waking Rune (yeah, run that one in hard mode...)
Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch
Sniper in the Deep
Voice in the Void
The Dalsine Affair
The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment
Portal of the Sacred Rune
The Golemworks Incident
The Cultists Kiss
The Refuge of Time
Fortress of the Nail
Glories of the Past Pt II The Price of Friendship
The Elven Entanglement
The Merchant's Wake
Trail by Machine
Hall of the Flesh Eaters
To Judge a Soul Pt I The Lost LegacyOf these, I have the most ire against King of the Stoval Stairs. If there are more scenarios that are retired, this should be the first to be retired out of all of them.
What do you think?
I've played about half of these, and I'm very much against retiring those. Notably, Storval Stairs. I died in that one, but it was a fair death; I got lured into an ambush and got killed for it. No rules shenanigans, just a severe tactical error on my part.
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Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville
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If we really want to look at the power curve and how difficult scenarios are/could be, lets get specific.
These are some of the scenarios that could result in TPK.
King of the Stoval Stairs
The Disappeared
Waking Rune (yeah, run that one in hard mode...)
Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch
Sniper in the Deep
Voice in the Void
The Dalsine Affair
The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment
Portal of the Sacred Rune
The Golemworks Incident
The Cultists Kiss
The Refuge of Time
Fortress of the Nail
Glories of the Past Pt II The Price of Friendship
The Elven Entanglement
The Merchant's Wake
Trail by Machine
Hall of the Flesh Eaters
To Judge a Soul Pt I The Lost LegacyOf these, I have the most ire against King of the Stoval Stairs. If there are more scenarios that are retired, this should be the first to be retired out of all of them.
What do you think?
I haven't played quite a few of those, but I'd agree on the ones I have, except for maybe The Disappeared.
I would also add Tide of Twilight to the list; I know it's resulted in two TPK's locally (I miss you, Alexander).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd add the Confirmation if you choose not to follow a SR Pathfinder's advice...
I did the remaining 9 points of damage when we got through the tunnels.
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I have just been skimming this thread.
I know some scenarios are better then others. Some you need to look out for. I remember things going wrong with the Elven Entanglement, but we were able to pull our buts out of the fire.
I think it would be a very bad idea to retire scenarios. A very bad idea.
I remember when the season 0 scenarios were retired. People immediately clamored to play these scenarios before they were yanked from circulation, because they recognized the pool of scenarios would become more limited. I remember this did cause a bit of a bottle neck until more scenarios were published.
Yeah bad scenaio "killer" scenario or no.....i think retiring a scenario is a bad idea.
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How the heck do you wipe in Merchant's Wake? That one is a major cakewalk.
I would, however, add Fortune's Blight to that list. That one's brutal.
Not sure about the TPK, but I did kill the Cleric during the rescue scene. Unfortunately, the Ranger player was new, and we didn't realize she didn't know she could use a wand of CLW to keep the Cleric from bleeding out.
Thinking about it, I would have to say a significant portion of the PCs I have killed when GMing were the PC being run by the then-current VC, whoever that was at the time. Not all, by any means, not intentional, but noticeable on reflection.
I admit my own preference would be to go through all the 1-7s, change them as necessary to make them 3-7s or 1-5s, and fix the broken bits.
Things like the 3rd level negative channeling cleric in sub-tier 1-2 whose tactics are to channel, either to heal her undead minion or harm the party just about every round. Or the constricted passage, 5' wide, ending with an encounter with a ghoul with class levels. We won't mention the Magus opening from invisibility with a good chance of a critical hit on his likely flat-footed target, at higher tier, opening with an empowered CL9 fireball on a party potentially including a 3rd level PC...
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These are some of the scenarios that could result in TPK.
The Disappeared
Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch
Voice in the Void
The Merchant's WakeWhat do you think?
No. It was just a freak accident that anyone died in these scenarios, perhaps super crappy characters, and a refusal for the other characters to run. Especially Many Fortunes, if you can TPK on that you can TPK on anything. You can solo Many Fortunes!
King of the Stoval Stairs
Waking Rune (yeah, run that one in hard mode...)
Sniper in the Deep
The Dalsine Affair
The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment
The Golemworks Incident
Fortress of the NailWhat do you think?
Yes. Even when talking about a scenario, it's often a certain tier that's deadly. For example, Storval Stairs is OK at 7-8.
It would be interesting if we could come to a consensus and make a list like this, including subtier. Would be helpful for those looking for a challenge.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Even following the advice, that final fight can be rather brutal.I'd add the Confirmation if you choose not to follow a SR Pathfinder's advice...
** spoiler omitted **
Nothing here is brutal.
Half-orc barbarian 1 with falchions are CR 1/2. You use multiples to make up your last encounter in the APL1 introductory adventure right?
Yes the one creature at level one that is completely flat out capable of killing people on a random whim is definitely the definition of brutal.
No. It was just a freak accident that anyone died in these scenarios, perhaps super crappy characters, and a refusal for the other characters to run. Especially Many Fortunes, if you can TPK on that you can TPK on anything. You can solo Many Fortunes!
Many Fortunes is kind of a crap shot at the end and definitely relies on too much luck and party composition for my taste. Saying you can solo it doesn't mean anything when you know what is coming at the end.
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Many Fortunes is kind of a crap shot at the end and definitely relies on too much luck and party composition for my taste. Saying you can solo it doesn't mean anything when you know what is coming at the end.
I seriously have no idea what you're talking about. We're talking about TPKs here, not failing the scenario. The last encounter (at subtier 1-2) features a poorly made level 2 rogue (dagger +2 (1d4+1)) and single level 2 warrior with quarterstaff +2 for a whopping 1d6 damage. These turds can't even hit you. Even if they did render you unconscious, they wouldn't kill you. That's not what happens in cities.
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I have noticed that the scenarios with a hard mode generally are the hardest ones even when playing on just normal mode. Knowing that I will never say yes to hard mode.
I thought a good Bonekeep would be running into min-maxed Aspis team consisting of Zen Archer, Daze Wizard, Slumber Witch, Gunslinger, Inquistor, and Classic Summoner, all with terrain advantage.
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I have noticed that the scenarios with a hard mode generally are the hardest ones even when playing on just normal mode. Knowing that I will never say yes to hard mode.
I would encourage you to give it a try on hard mode despite this. There are only a few games with this sort of challenge and with some prestige everything can be fixed at the end of the day anyway. I personally feel it is worth the experience since there are limited replay options.
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I was pleasantly surprised when my Tengu paladin diplomanced almost the entirety of School. Big part of that trend came up because she took a rather unorthodox approach in the *first* fight, and it kind of settled the party down to look at things a bit differently.
Felt kind of bad about it on one level, because it made the scenario a lot easier, but at the same time, the roleplay was a hoot, and worth the price of admission.
Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield
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School of Spirits felt like an easy scenario to me, but it was so rich in story that I didn't feel like we missed anything by not fighting a lot.
Like Midnight Mauler, it's a very straightforward scenario if you don't try to murderhobo your way through it. I ran it for a party that ended up fighting in every encounter. When I played it, we managed a clean sweep with no combats.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield
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** spoiler omitted **
When I ran it...
The same player then threatened to kill Khaya's 'children'. Combat ensued.
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Right, and to my recollection we don't do that in PFS the way they did it in APL 1 games for Living Greyhawk....Even following the advice, that final fight can be rather brutal.I'd add the Confirmation if you choose not to follow a SR Pathfinder's advice...
** spoiler omitted **
Nothing here is brutal.
Half-orc barbarian 1 with falchions are CR 1/2. You use multiples to make up your last encounter in the APL1 introductory adventure right?
Yes the one creature at level one that is completely flat out capable of killing people on a random whim is definitely the definition of brutal.
True, but I have seen some stuff for level 1s include some possible opponents that are really inappropriate for a bunch of new adventurers.
Wights, which are CR4, but are one-hit-one-death problems at 1st level. If a wight hits a 1st level PC, that PC is dead, and will rise as another wight in fairly short order.
Multiple fungal crickets, which are CR3 individually, so two are a CR5. This in a module for 1st level PCs.
A couple of Tier 1-7 scenarios with inappropriate scaling for subtier 1-2, like a 3rd level negative channeling cleric whose tactics are to channel; a 3rd or 4th level Magus whose initial attack is form invisibility against what is likely to be one of the squishies due to placement, etc.
By the way, if you want to play "Hard Mode", just make sure you have time to use the optional encounter. So many of them are brutal, and have no rewards but satisfaction for defeating them.
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To be fair Kevin, almost all those examples are from modules and the PFS team does not control the development of those. I think that if you did a comprehensive review of encounter challenge, especially at low level, you'll find PFS scenarios hit the mark much more often than missing it.
I can certainly agree with the invisible magus. I don't think the author fully understood the nova power of a magus since they were a relatively new class at the time.
Tier 7-11 certainly have some really deadly encounters, but by that time, the party is assumed to have resources to deal with things like ability damage/drain, darkness, flying, even death.
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Kevin? Who be this "Kevin"?
1-7s are bad mojo, just take it as given.
Seriously, that one example is even worse, using known stuff, in high tier.
All the pieces of that are well-known, not anything new to the Magus.
And I don't remember if teh Season 1 rules prevented levels 1s form playing in subtier 6-7 or not. Even so, and even with the "correct" rules, that leaves a possible 3rd level PC facing 9d6*1.5. Can you say ugly?
The shadows, IIRC, were only in modules, but that may be my memory, too. And those were just examples off the top of my head.
How about a ghast in sub-tier 1-2?
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Seriously, that one example is even worse, using known stuff, in high tier.
** spoiler omitted **
At 6th level there is a reasonable expectation of magic items and abilities to mitigate the damage, up to and including breath of life. Players should expect challenging, even deadly encounters by 6th level. Many character builds can do equivalent damage or even much more than that by then.
Yes, level 1-2 could not play in a tier 6-7, and even during those older seasons where the challenge factor was generally lower, playing a level 3 in a tier 6-7 was generally discouraged. I don't think its fair to judge a scenario's lethality based on a PC playing with a group 3-4 levels above them. Even a CR 6 could whipe out a level 3 and that would be an approximate appropriate encounter for a party of 3-4s. Playing a 3-4 in 6-7 vs. CR8 encounters and I put that on the player not the author.
How about a ghast in sub-tier 1-2?
Technically, a ghast is only a CR2 creature, so an appropriate opponent for tier 1-2 assuming its CR is accurate per the Bestiary. I'm sure some would argue that it is not a CR2 creature, but with moderate attack modifiers and damage, and two special effects [stench & paralysis) with moderate save DCs, they are really only a significant challenge to a party with unusually bad dice luck. And that has never been a factor is evaluating the lethality of a creature. Even still, circumstances in the encounter (tactics, environment, etc) could mitigate or mafnify its deadliness. Dunno, as I do not recall a ghast being used in a tier 1-2.
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Animated objects? Hogtie'em. Grapple, dogpile and tie up.
I taught this rare skill to a party of newcomers in a certain season 3 scenario. Hardness 8 would've taken them an hour to pierce otherwise.
Then they got stuck in the dungeon for the night and promptly invented Golem Rodeo. I marked it on a chronicle shhet, iirc. And somebody adopted the poor hogtied object.
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My personal favorite is a hardness 8 animated object in subtier 1-2 when the same encounter in subtier 4-5 just has DR 5/adamantine.
Dunno, as I do not recall a ghast being used in a tier 1-2.
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Just played several scenarios in season 7 this weekend and they were all deadly. Noobs will certainly die in them unless their GM softballs like mad (or doesn't understand the NPCs powers at all).
Season 7 so far is complex and I'm finding there is intense table variation because GMs are not running scenarios as intended.
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I'm with Ryzoken, the bar's high. I've been a hair's breath from running a tpk in both Six Seconds(one dead, 3 down, 1 ran away) and Tamran (all but one down, he surrendered and was taken prisoner, rest stabilized without help). I'm running To Judge part 2 this Saturday and ohhh boy...
That said, if your local scene's hi-op, I reckon things might turn out differently.