No, because you're using mythic abilities that are designed to unbalance the equation. Everything else is right and all of it relies on melee, which a mobile enemy can make obsolete.
No, maintaining a grapple checks only occur in subsequent rounds although a GM may be nice and allow you to do this.
Jeff Morse, the rules don't work that way.
1) Maintain checks are done in subsequent turns, not the turn you initiate a grapple. As a result what the OP wants to do cannot be done. You cannot start a grapple and maintain the grapple in the same turn and thus cannot start a grapple and pin/tie up the target in the same turn. (Although a GM may house-rule it otherwise.)
2) If you have Greater Grapple you only need to succeed at one of your maintain checks. If you fail the first you can try again with a second.
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
_Ozy_,
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). If your
target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Ok, in context, the bolded section is stating that you must make a check each round to maintain the hold (using a standard action) if you do not release the grapple and if the target does not break the grapple. Additionally, you get a +5 bonus on that check if the target failed to break the grapple.
1) Does it clearly say that is in the subsequent round?
No, but you do not need to make a maintain check in the round you initiate a grapple. This is clearly implied although it may not be explicitly stated. The entire section is talking about a maintain check being made in a subsequent round.
2) Greater grapple allows you to use a move action to maintain thus allowing you two maintain checks per round. Since you only maintain on subsequent rounds that is when you can use this.
However, I can easily see GMs allowing it. As with previous iterations of grapple rules (3.0/3.5) the PF version is not clear in many respects. Perhaps others see this element differently or perhaps the Devs have written clarification somewhere.
But, in the meantime, it appears that the only aspect that Greater Grapple modifies is the action economy of maintain checks and since maintain checks occur in subsequent rounds what the OP is trying to do wouldn't work.
Put another way, there is nothing to maintain yet. The grapple was just initiated, maintenance is later.
You can only maintain a grapple in te subsequent rounds. That's is at least as RAI
Solution:
(T -1)Standard: Ready a grapple action
(T 0) Move Maintain and pin
(T 0) Swift transfer to Rope or manacles
(T 0) Standard: kick him in the nuts
(T +1) Full round: Coup de Grace
(T +1) Free: Quick draw tea cup
(T +1) Swift: Sip tea
(T +1) Free: drop tea
Technically not one round but effectively so.
[Edit: assumes Greater grapple and Rapid Grapple are used.]
_Ozy_,
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). If your
target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).Ok, in context, the bolded section is stating that you must make a check each round to maintain the hold (using a standard action) if you do not release the grapple and if the target does not break the grapple. Additionally, you get a +5 bonus on that check if the target failed to break the grapple.
1) Does it clearly say that is in the subsequent round?
No, but you do not need to make a maintain check in the round you initiate a grapple. This is clearly implied although it may not be explicitly stated. The entire section is talking about a maintain check being made in a subsequent round.2) Greater grapple allows you to use a move action to maintain thus allowing you two maintain checks per round. Since you only maintain on subsequent rounds that is when you can use this.
However, I can easily see GMs allowing it. As with previous iterations of grapple rules (3.0/3.5) the PF version is not clear in...
The "Rapid Grappler" feat indicates that you can spend actions to continue to grapple as a maintain, implying that you are not limited to one maintain per turn which further indicates more that you can maintain immediately after the first standard grapple with greater grapple. Assuming the above is correct, you can get three grapples in a round all at full BAB and therefor pin and tie in a single round assuming you have rope in hand or immediately accessible. I also have never seen anything that says you have to wait a round to maintain, just the actions, which unmodified by feats makes it required to wait to maintain, but unmodified and it goes by the wayside.
Awesomeness Dog,
You can absolutely make multiple maintain checks in a single round. This is not in question.
However, there is nothing that indicates that, on a round when no maintain check is required, that you are allowed to make a maintain check, let alone 2-3.
Maintain checks are requirements to maintain a grapple. If you are not required to maintain a grapple there is no maintain check. Ergo, they happen on subsequent rounds.
The fact that the action economy of a maintain check has changed has no bearing on when a maintain check is required.
Saying the grappler must maintain 1/rnd after the first sets a minimum, but doesn't prevent extra maintain actions at any point. So it doesn't say you can't, and the action economy works..
However, 1-round hogtying doesn't sound fun for anyone at a table except maybe that rodeo grappler. So, I'm inclined to be harsher, and say no to that until there's a rule that specifically allows a grappling maintain check more than once a round, instead of just reducing action econ until it would be possible if allowed.
Also, I don't think pinned, with or without being tied up, makes someone helpless. The example of tied up as a reason for helpless I believe would have to be a much more severe case, full restraints not just a little manacle-ing.
I also weigh in on the side that believes that you can only "maintain" the grapple once a round after the first round. YMMV.
Also, don't forget that at some point the grappler likely has to be holding a chain in one of his/her hands, which may cause a penalty based on one-handed grappling.
Ok guys, lets ask a really basic question, what is a Maintain check?
Answer: It is a check that maintains a grapple in the rounds after the grapple is initiated.
There is NOTHING in the rules to indicate you need a Maintain check in the round the grapple is initiated.
So, if anything modifies the maintain check, that premise does not change unless it states it does. Action economy doesn't even come into it.
Scott Wilhelm, the burden of proof is actually on the "Grapple, Pin, and Tie Up in one round" crowd. The reason being is that Maintain checks have always been in subsequent rounds to keep the grappled target grappled. Your side is proposing a change to the normal timing doing a maintain check.
Yes, the action economy has changed, but there is no exception being made to the basic concept that, to keep a target grappled, you must make a maintain grapple check (the 'when' a maintain check is required).
You simply haven't shown evidence that states you CAN do what you are doing. Remember, this is Pathfinder, if something is different from the normal rules it has to state it is. The only difference here is the action economy, not the timing.
Its like saying, you can only use a swift action on your turn. Ok, here is another rule saying that now you can use two swift actions on any turn you are injured. Then you are trying to come back with, so I can use two swift actions on turns when I am not injured?
Summary: Maintain checks are a requirement to keep grappling that have a rider effect. There is nothing in the rules stating that they can be done in the round you initiated them while there is plenty in the rules indicating that they are required in subsequent rounds to keep grappling. The Greater Grapple (etc) rules have nothing in them to change when you make a maintain check, only how many maintain checks you can make in a round.
This is a long-standing argument that is waiting on a large FAQ on grapple: see any of the myriad other threads about it. On those threads, some devs have said yes, others have opined no, but there has been no official statement one way or the other.
Until they write the FAQ, it's going to be a house rule/table variation/flip a coin. (If you run a grapple build in PFS, ask your GM before every scenario how they rule this. You want to know your limits up front.)
To the OP:
As the GM, you can rule it however you see fit. If you choose to rule it that you can initiate and maintain a grapple on the same round (through greater/rapid grapple or through mythic multi-standard actions), you can still shut down grappling builds with one very easy method:
Multiple enemies.
Grapple is highly effective against a single target, but you can only grapple one target at a time (maybe two with the Grabbing Style tree). While the grappling build is busy with one target, the rest of your bad guys can full attack him, and probably flat-footed.
Scott Wilhelm,
You are misreading the Greater Grapple feat. Greater Grapple does not state that you are allowed to make grapple checks as a move action. It does state that you are allowed to maintain grapple checks as a move action. That is VERY different.
Since maintain is on subsequent rounds, and since Greater Grapple's move action only applies to maintain checks, you cannot use it on the first round.
Summary: You quoted all the relevant rules but missed key elements of those rules. The most significant of these is that Greater Grapple only changes the action for maintain grapple checks, not grapple checks. The other one is that you seem to agree that maintain checks are done in subsequent rounds but then you ignore that statement (perhaps because of your misreading of Greater Grapple).
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Where does it say grappling maintain is only on subsequent rounds?
Reading that only into it would prove it for me. But I can not find it.
Doesn't seem like very solid reasoning to me.
The idea of only being able to maintain the round after, I mean.
edit- Ah, I kind of see how Gauss could arrive at that conclusion. It seems to rely on the assumption that the general combat rules are perfectly written, though, which they definitely are not.
Paulicus, actually I am basing it on the entire concept of maintain grapple. In the initial round there is nothing to maintain yet. It is pretty basic.
The process (based on the rules) has always been:
Round 1: Initiate grapple check(s)
Round 2+: Maintain grapple check(s)
Just because the action economy has changed does not mean that Maintain checks are suddenly part of round 1. There is nothing yet to maintain.
With that said, I stated at the beginning of my posts in this thread that a GM may be nice and let you do this.
I don't recall seeing in the grapple rules or in the description of the Expert Captor Order Ability where you have to have the rope in your hands or that having it in your hands imposes a -4.
I agree that it doesn't say you have to have a rope/chain in your hands, but that makes sense to me. As for having a hand free...
"Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."
(I looked into the rules when I had the idea to create a grappling, roping PC and I tried to stay with relatively conservative interpretations of the rules.)
It's clearly unclear if even the developers are in disagreement on the issue. That means you need to ask yourself two questions before deciding which way to rule for your table: 1) Will this make the game more fun for our table, and 2) why shouldn't martials get to have nice things?
It's clearly unclear if even the developers are in disagreement on the issue. That means you need to ask yourself two questions before deciding which way to rule for your table: 1) Will this make the game more fun for our table, and 2) why shouldn't martials get to have nice things?
This is true even across other parts of the game, non explicit writing is one of the biggest issues in this game. My friends rag on me about my dislike for non defined key words in the game, such as pummeling style using the word punch.
My take on it is this. There is no "initiate" or "maintain" its all just grapple and these words, which are not defined, are used to illustrate state. Initiate is the not yet grapple while maintain is the grappled state, also there technically is a controller state as well but people tend to leave that out. Also note the controller can choose as a free action to not be grappling anymore.
So if you take it as a grapple is a standard action if you are in control of the grapple and choose to continue grappling then you must devote a grapple check to this, its stated that any successful grapple check maintains which means maintain isn't an action of it's self its a consequence. This means maintain isn't an action itself but apart of the grapple check. This is also why maintain isn't an option under grapple and why you choose to do a grapple action and if you succeed then it also maintains.
This means I could use the bushwhacked and greater grapple feats to tie up a person in 1 round even without mythic.
Note: If you peer into the unchained action economy section and look at grapple to me that version shows the true intent of what it's supposed to be.
Onyxlion, so if you are going by Pathfinder Unchained's "true intent" how can you still have the stance you illustrated in your post?
Pathfinder Unchained absolutely states that maintain a grapple cannot be done until the round after you initiate it.
Note: Pathfinder Unchained is a significant modification to the rules system and I am not advocating it as 'the rules' for the purposes of this discussion. I am only stating that if you are going to use it as 'true intent' then you cannot use Greater Grapple during the round you initiate the grapple.
Just because the action economy has changed does not mean that Maintain checks are suddenly part of round 1.But that is exactly what it means. The whole point of the action economy is to govern which and how many things you can do in a round. The whole point of Feats is that they give you special abilities to do special things, like take privileged actions within the action economy.
What Greater Grapple does is let you make 2 checks in a round, and you can use those to harm your opponent, such as by Pinning them or Tying them Up.
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent)
Only if you ignore the first sentence that states that Greater Grapple applies to maintain grapple checks. This seems to be a significant portion of the problem, many of 'your side' are ignoring that Greater Grapple only applies to maintain checks. That is why action economy is not part of the discussion. The only part of the discussion that is really relevant here is "can you maintain a grapple in the round that you initiate it".
There is nothing yet to maintain.That is a fair criticism of Paizo's use of the word "maintain," but it doesn't change the fact that according to the rules, every time you make a successful maintain check, you get to impose one of those other Grapple effects, such as Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up.
I have never disputed that when you make a maintain check you get to apply a grapple effect. I dispute your assertion that you can make a maintain check in the round you initiate a grapple.
In fact, if we were to use Pathfinder Unchained as an indication on how the Devs intend "maintain" to be defined (as Onyxlion is stating it is) then we know the Devs intend that maintain checks only occur in the rounds after a grapple is initiated.
Ultimately, the whole debate revolves around 'can maintain checks be used in the round you initiate grapple'. I, and others, say that no, maintain checks are used only in the rounds afterwards while you and others say yes. That is the whole point to this discussion and perhaps it deserves a FAQ.
Onyxlion, so if you are going by Pathfinder Unchained's "true intent" how can you still have the stance you illustrated in your post?
Pathfinder Unchained absolutely states that maintain a grapple cannot be done until the round after you initiate it.
Note: Pathfinder Unchained is a significant modification to the rules system and I am not advocating it as 'the rules' for the purposes of this discussion. I am only stating that if you are going to use it as 'true intent' then you cannot use Greater Grapple during the round you initiate the grapple.
"As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."
It sure doesn't, it only tells you that you either have to do this to continue to grapple or release. Also note the use of maintain and the switch to continue.
Edit: Misread your post.
Onyxlion, keep reading. It does :)
Greater Grapple (Combat): After you take a move action to successfully maintain a grapple, you can spend 5 stamina points before the end of your turn to maintain that grapple as a swift action. This allows you to make up to three grapple checks to maintain a grapple during a round, but you still can’t maintain a grapple until the round after you initiate it.
Onyxlion, keep reading. It does :)
Greater Grapple (Combat): After you take a move action to successfully maintain a grapple, you can spend 5 stamina points before the end of your turn to maintain that grapple as a swift action. This allows you to make up to three grapple checks to maintain a grapple during a round, but you still can’t maintain a grapple until the round after you initiate it.
Continue a Grapple (2 Acts): You continue a grapple. If
you initiated the grapple, you must either take this actionat the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as
a free action. When you take this action, you attempt a
grapple combat maneuver check with a +5 bonus. If you’re
successful, you can either move, deal damage to, or pin the
creature you are grappling. Alternatively, you can attempt
to tie up the creature with a rope.
It has zero stipulation on when it can be used. With this version I don't even need rapid grapple, greater lets me to 2 more grapple checks that same round.
Onyxlion, keep reading. It does :)
Greater Grapple (Combat): After you take a move action to successfully maintain a grapple, you can spend 5 stamina points before the end of your turn to maintain that grapple as a swift action. This allows you to make up to three grapple checks to maintain a grapple during a round, but you still can’t maintain a grapple until the round after you initiate it.
In fact the guy who wrote that said he put that in there because that's how the thought it worked, in fact that's the only place it occurs in the whole of pathfinder.
OnyxLion, actually, it does.
Continue a Grapple (2 Acts): You continue a grapple. If you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as a free action. When you take this action, you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check with a +5 bonus. If you’re successful, you can either move, deal damage to, or pin the creature you are grappling. Alternatively, you can attempt to tie up the creature with a rope.
Clearly the only option to continue (maintain) a grapple according to "Continue a Grapple" is to use it in subsequent turns as defined in the rule. If you are going to change that you must have text that changes that.
The stamina system, which restates some of the feats, then goes on to state what is clearly a basic premise of the system, that you still cannot use a maintain check on the turn you initiate a grapple.
OnyxLion, I do want to thank you for making me look at Pathfinder Unchained. It pretty clearly indicates that the Devs intend maintain checks to be 'rounds after'.
Edit: Do you have a Dev statement that that is not the intent of the rules?
Frankly, I think the 'maintain when you initiate' vs 'maintain in subsequent rounds' debate is nearing its end with no proper resolution due to a lack of clearly defined rules in this regard (other than Pathfinder Unchained). Perhaps a FAQ is in order.
OnyxLion, actually, it does.
Continue a Grapple (2 Acts): You continue a grapple. If you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as a free action. When you take this action, you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check with a +5 bonus. If you’re successful, you can either move, deal damage to, or pin the creature you are grappling. Alternatively, you can attempt to tie up the creature with a rope.Clearly the only option to continue (maintain) a grapple according to "Continue a Grapple" is to use it in subsequent turns as defined in the rule. If you are going to change that you must have text that changes that.
The stamina system, which restates some of the feats, then goes on to state what is clearly a basic premise of the system, that you still cannot use a maintain check on the turn you initiate a grapple.
OnyxLion, I do want to thank you for making me look at Pathfinder Unchained. It pretty clearly indicates that the Devs intend maintain checks to be 'rounds after'.
Even the guy who wrote that feat admitted he didn't really know how it worked so whatever. You are also wildly misreading that statement. The whole statement is "If you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as a free action."
Edit: I agree with you. Heck even unchained has both sides.
Onyxlion, rather than posting second-hand statements without the quotes or links, could you please supply the quote and/or link?
I am not misreading the statement, I am focused on the portion relative to our current discussion which is "when can you use maintaining a grapple".
Who started it (the section I did not bold) is not relevant to the question of "when can you use continuing/maintaining a grapple".
Ending the grapple as a free action is also not relevant to the question of "when can you use continuing/maintaining a grapple".
The bolded section absolutely, unequivocally states that you can only Continue a Grapple in each subsequent turn. Unless there is text that directly contradicts that then, for Pathfinder Unchained, it is clear that you cannot use it at any other time.
Put another way, using the Pathfinder Unchained rules the rules are clearly spelled out in such a way to preclude Continuing a Grapple in the round you initiate a grapple regardless of action economy.
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Scott Wilhelm, if that is what you think our side is saying then you are COMPLETELY misunderstanding. This is further shown by the fact that you keep providing irrelevant (to the discussion) rules quotes and debates.
Let me try this again. There are two issues here.
1) Does Greater Grapple apply to all Grapple checks or ONLY maintain checks?
Answer: The feat states that it applies to maintain checks and states that you are allowed to make two checks per round.
'My side' does not dispute that you can make two maintain checks per round nor does it dispute the rider benefit of those checks.
We do dispute any statement that action economy change of Greater Grapple applies to all grapple checks.
2) Can you make a maintain check in the round that you initiate a grapple?
Answer: the rules seem to say maintain checks only occur in rounds subsequent to the round you initiate a grapple.
However, there is enough lack of clarity here that it could have multiple readings.
Additionally, Pathfinder Unchained clearly limits Continue (maintain) a Grapple checks to subsequent rounds.
Finally, the Greater Grapple feat under the stamina rules also states that maintain checks only occur on subsequent rounds and even uses phrasing that indicates that is the normal stance.
Now, #2 could use a FAQ, but #1 should be absolutely clear, Greater Grapple applies to maintain checks only but it gives you multiple maintain checks in a round.
P.S., I did not state 'the first sentence of the Benefits of Greater Grapple'. I did not even use the word "Benefits". So please try not to put words into my sentences and thus misread my posts.
My statement was plenty clear in the context of the line of the feat we were discussing.