Grapple, pin, and tied in one round?


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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm DMing a mythic game with a level 8 grapple expert PC and I'm really digging into the depth of grapple rules for the first time. My player has found a shockingly powerful combo to grapple, pin, and tie an enemy in one round. She walked me through her process, but can someone help me make sure this is a legal move?

1 - Swift Action - Fleet Charge, which allows a movement and a standard attack at the cost of a use of mythic power. She has a feat that grants her a grab ability, so a successful standard attack initiates grapple.
2 - Standard Action - Maintain the grapple, initiate a pin.
3 - Move Action - Using the Greater Grapple feat, maintain the grapple, tie up the character.
4 - Standard Action - In case she fails any of those rolls, another use of mythic power with Amazing Initiative grants another standard action, filling in for whichever roll failed.

So as a result, she only needs 3 out of 4 rolls to be successful- which is not hard with her CMB - and she can tie any enemy in readied chains in one round. This was used against an enemy mythic champion and he never got to take a single action. Thus the large boss fight, a mythic challenge at that, was essentially over in one round.

Is this right? Is this overpowered?

I mean, the level 8 spellcasters can do some really impressive things with two uses of mythic power, so maybe it's not overpowered, but I also worry that every combat from here on out will be resolved this way. Is there something that I should have future bosses do to prepare against this tactic after word has gotten out about it? Or since she's built most of her character around this ability, should I just let her spit out hogtied enemies each round until she runs out of mythic power?


No, because you're using mythic abilities that are designed to unbalance the equation. Everything else is right and all of it relies on melee, which a mobile enemy can make obsolete.


No, maintaining a grapple checks only occur in subsequent rounds although a GM may be nice and allow you to do this.

The Exchange

looks legal to me. also running a mythic game and can be really broken.
now the only thing cant do is if fail to maintain than you loose all
hold and go back to needing to grapple again.


Jeff Morse, the rules don't work that way.

1) Maintain checks are done in subsequent turns, not the turn you initiate a grapple. As a result what the OP wants to do cannot be done. You cannot start a grapple and maintain the grapple in the same turn and thus cannot start a grapple and pin/tie up the target in the same turn. (Although a GM may house-rule it otherwise.)

2) If you have Greater Grapple you only need to succeed at one of your maintain checks. If you fail the first you can try again with a second.

CRB p125 Greater Grapple wrote:
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.


1) Greater Grapple:

Quote:
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent)

Certainly sounds like the specific rules of greater grapple allow you to make two checks in the first round. Obviously the general rules of grapple rely on standard actions to initiate and maintain, so you would have to maintain the subsequent round, but where are the rules that override the language in greater grapple? I see nothing in the core rules that would enforce that limitation.


_Ozy_,

CRB p200 Grapple rules wrote:

Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). If your

target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Ok, in context, the bolded section is stating that you must make a check each round to maintain the hold (using a standard action) if you do not release the grapple and if the target does not break the grapple. Additionally, you get a +5 bonus on that check if the target failed to break the grapple.

1) Does it clearly say that is in the subsequent round?
No, but you do not need to make a maintain check in the round you initiate a grapple. This is clearly implied although it may not be explicitly stated. The entire section is talking about a maintain check being made in a subsequent round.

2) Greater grapple allows you to use a move action to maintain thus allowing you two maintain checks per round. Since you only maintain on subsequent rounds that is when you can use this.

However, I can easily see GMs allowing it. As with previous iterations of grapple rules (3.0/3.5) the PF version is not clear in many respects. Perhaps others see this element differently or perhaps the Devs have written clarification somewhere.
But, in the meantime, it appears that the only aspect that Greater Grapple modifies is the action economy of maintain checks and since maintain checks occur in subsequent rounds what the OP is trying to do wouldn't work.

Put another way, there is nothing to maintain yet. The grapple was just initiated, maintenance is later.


You can only maintain a grapple in te subsequent rounds. That's is at least as RAI


Solution:
(T -1)Standard: Ready a grapple action
(T 0) Move Maintain and pin
(T 0) Swift transfer to Rope or manacles
(T 0) Standard: kick him in the nuts
(T +1) Full round: Coup de Grace
(T +1) Free: Quick draw tea cup
(T +1) Swift: Sip tea
(T +1) Free: drop tea

Technically not one round but effectively so.

[Edit: assumes Greater grapple and Rapid Grapple are used.]


Gauss wrote:

_Ozy_,

CRB p200 Grapple rules wrote:

Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). If your

target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Ok, in context, the bolded section is stating that you must make a check each round to maintain the hold (using a standard action) if you do not release the grapple and if the target does not break the grapple. Additionally, you get a +5 bonus on that check if the target failed to break the grapple.

1) Does it clearly say that is in the subsequent round?
No, but you do not need to make a maintain check in the round you initiate a grapple. This is clearly implied although it may not be explicitly stated. The entire section is talking about a maintain check being made in a subsequent round.

2) Greater grapple allows you to use a move action to maintain thus allowing you two maintain checks per round. Since you only maintain on subsequent rounds that is when you can use this.

However, I can easily see GMs allowing it. As with previous iterations of grapple rules (3.0/3.5) the PF version is not clear in...

The "Rapid Grappler" feat indicates that you can spend actions to continue to grapple as a maintain, implying that you are not limited to one maintain per turn which further indicates more that you can maintain immediately after the first standard grapple with greater grapple. Assuming the above is correct, you can get three grapples in a round all at full BAB and therefor pin and tie in a single round assuming you have rope in hand or immediately accessible. I also have never seen anything that says you have to wait a round to maintain, just the actions, which unmodified by feats makes it required to wait to maintain, but unmodified and it goes by the wayside.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I believe Tetori Monk gets around a lot of the action economy restraints, and accomplish the Grapple/Pin/Tied Up in one round.


Awesomeness Dog,

You can absolutely make multiple maintain checks in a single round. This is not in question.

However, there is nothing that indicates that, on a round when no maintain check is required, that you are allowed to make a maintain check, let alone 2-3.

Maintain checks are requirements to maintain a grapple. If you are not required to maintain a grapple there is no maintain check. Ergo, they happen on subsequent rounds.

The fact that the action economy of a maintain check has changed has no bearing on when a maintain check is required.


Saying the grappler must maintain 1/rnd after the first sets a minimum, but doesn't prevent extra maintain actions at any point. So it doesn't say you can't, and the action economy works..

However, 1-round hogtying doesn't sound fun for anyone at a table except maybe that rodeo grappler. So, I'm inclined to be harsher, and say no to that until there's a rule that specifically allows a grappling maintain check more than once a round, instead of just reducing action econ until it would be possible if allowed.

Also, I don't think pinned, with or without being tied up, makes someone helpless. The example of tied up as a reason for helpless I believe would have to be a much more severe case, full restraints not just a little manacle-ing.


I also weigh in on the side that believes that you can only "maintain" the grapple once a round after the first round. YMMV.

Also, don't forget that at some point the grappler likely has to be holding a chain in one of his/her hands, which may cause a penalty based on one-handed grappling.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This is very interesting and I have one grappler that will be disappointed at some point.


Gauss wrote:

Jeff Morse, the rules don't work that way.

1) Maintain checks are done in subsequent turns, not the turn you initiate a grapple. As a result what the OP wants to do cannot be done. You cannot start a grapple and maintain the grapple in the same turn and thus cannot start a grapple and pin/tie up the target in the same turn. (Although a GM may house-rule it otherwise.)

2) If you have Greater Grapple you only need to succeed at one of your maintain checks. If you fail the first you can try again with a second.

CRB p125 Greater Grapple wrote:
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

That doesn't mean you can't make 2 checks in one round. It means if either check succeeds, then the Grapple is maintained.

The general rules on Grappling do say that subsequent Grapple checks allow you to impose the Sundry effects that one can make in a grapple like Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up.

What you are describing is something where you make 2 checks instead of 1, and you take the higher result, but Greater Grapple doesn't say that.

You haven't shown enough evidence to indicate that you can't Grapple, Pin, and Tie Up an opponent in 1 round.


Ok guys, lets ask a really basic question, what is a Maintain check?
Answer: It is a check that maintains a grapple in the rounds after the grapple is initiated.
There is NOTHING in the rules to indicate you need a Maintain check in the round the grapple is initiated.

So, if anything modifies the maintain check, that premise does not change unless it states it does. Action economy doesn't even come into it.

Scott Wilhelm, the burden of proof is actually on the "Grapple, Pin, and Tie Up in one round" crowd. The reason being is that Maintain checks have always been in subsequent rounds to keep the grappled target grappled. Your side is proposing a change to the normal timing doing a maintain check.

Yes, the action economy has changed, but there is no exception being made to the basic concept that, to keep a target grappled, you must make a maintain grapple check (the 'when' a maintain check is required).

You simply haven't shown evidence that states you CAN do what you are doing. Remember, this is Pathfinder, if something is different from the normal rules it has to state it is. The only difference here is the action economy, not the timing.

Its like saying, you can only use a swift action on your turn. Ok, here is another rule saying that now you can use two swift actions on any turn you are injured. Then you are trying to come back with, so I can use two swift actions on turns when I am not injured?

Summary: Maintain checks are a requirement to keep grappling that have a rider effect. There is nothing in the rules stating that they can be done in the round you initiated them while there is plenty in the rules indicating that they are required in subsequent rounds to keep grappling. The Greater Grapple (etc) rules have nothing in them to change when you make a maintain check, only how many maintain checks you can make in a round.


I don't know about Mythic Powers. If it's like what you described, then yeah, I guess.

The Tie Up attempt usually suffers a -10. Are you considering that? I like to get around that problem in my Grappling characters by taking 2 levels in Cavalier. The Order of the Penitent Ability Expert Captor lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take the -10 to do it. There is a rope-based Equipment Trick Feat that knocks the penalty down to a -5.

There are rules that suggest your bound monsters and NPCs can escape their bonds by either a successful Escape Artist Check or by bursting the rope used to tie them up with. Your mythic grappler's Escape Artist DC is likely shockingly high. But the burst DC for hemp rope is 23, silk rope, 24, spider silk rope 25, chain, 26, and I think Mithril chain is 27. There are no rules for even buying Adamantine Chain, and no burst DC is given. For a guide, I refer to the Dwarven Dorn Duergar, an Exotic Weapon that is mostly 10' of chain, and if yo get an Adamantine version of that, the cost goes up 3000gp. There are rules for Sundering Adamantine weapons, but no burst DC is given. There is also a one-shot Wondrous Item called Iron Rope that upon Command Word (a Standard Action) transforms from hemp rope into 1" thick iron, so that would be a most effective way of Tying someone Up. My Iron Rope only lasted for 1 round against a Rhemoraz, which burned/melted it's way through it, but that was just enough time to steal the treasure under in its nest and run away.


Cult of Vorg wrote:

Saying the grappler must maintain 1/rnd after the first sets a minimum, but doesn't prevent extra maintain actions at any point. So it doesn't say you can't, and the action economy works..

However, 1-round hogtying doesn't sound fun for anyone at a table except maybe that rodeo grappler. So, I'm inclined to be harsher, and say no to that until there's a rule that specifically allows a grappling maintain check more than once a round, instead of just reducing action econ until it would be possible if allowed.

Also, I don't think pinned, with or without being tied up, makes someone helpless. The example of tied up as a reason for helpless I believe would have to be a much more severe case, full restraints not just a little manacle-ing.

It's a bold and risky move for the grappler. Except with Mythic abilities, you pretty much can't go up to your opponent, Grapple, and Tie them Up in 1 round because you can't use Rapid Grappler as a Swift Action if you haven't used Greater Grapple as a Move Action, and you can't use Greater Grapple as a Move Action until you have made a Grapple as a Standard Action. You consume your Move Action to get up to your opponent. If you then you then Initiate the Grapple with your Standard Action, you now have that monster's undivided attention, and if the situation is that you are fighting 1 big monster and you are trying to shut it down with a fast grapple-and-tie-up, it's probably because it is a big enough monster that it will make a mess out of the party in a straight-up melee, and that means it can make a mess out of that grappler.

My own grappler, for instance, at level 9, had about 80hp and a GMB of +30, meaning that she would average a 41 per grapple check. Well most monsters with a CMB of 40 can do 80 points of damage in a round, or something nearly like it. And if that is what we're talking about, remember that 2 checks have to work for the tactic to work, and if we are talking about a CMD = GMB, then each check has a 50-50 chance of working, so only a 25% chance of working in 1 round. If your Grapple Mod is so high that you only fail on a 1, then there is still about a 10% chance of failure: .95*.95=.9025X 100%= 90.25% chance of success, and it doesn't normally get better than that.

So how do you make that work?

The wizard buffs the grappler with Bull Strength and Dim Dors the Grappler on top of the monster.

The Cleric with the Law Domain puts Touch of Law on the on the Grappler to guarantee those die rolls, buffs him with Righteous Might, and fortifies her with Shield Other.

The bard sings a song for good luck.

The Rogue throws a pouch of itching powder in the monster's eyes and runs away.

Then the Grappler moves in hopefully to finish off the Dragon, or to occupy it long enough for the rest of the party to finish it off.

But now we're not talking about the Grappler finishing off the BBEG in 1 round and ruining everybody's fun: we're talking about teamwork. Teamwork is normally fun for everybody. Sure, it's centered around the grappler this time, but that's okay sometimes, isn't it?

And bear in mind that there are times when the grappling tactic just doesn't work like when you are outnumbered, the badguys can always devote one of their number to constantly untying their allies as fast as you keep tying them up, so if grappling is your only trick, you are going to lose or again rely on your party members to solve this problem, and hopefully you can help them do it. Usually, that would mean that I would run up and grapple someone, then other party members would say, "Sweet!" and kill the guy I had in my arms. Again, teamwork.

Even following the most broken interpretation of Grappling there is (mine), it is still just a neat tactical trick that is a part of the solution to some tactical problems. A good GM crafts encounters and situations that give each PC an opportunity to shine in turn. Or tragically, dramatically, and/or horrifically fail, depending on the flavor of the campaign. And Grappling is a delicious part of this nutritious breakfast.


This is a long-standing argument that is waiting on a large FAQ on grapple: see any of the myriad other threads about it. On those threads, some devs have said yes, others have opined no, but there has been no official statement one way or the other.

Until they write the FAQ, it's going to be a house rule/table variation/flip a coin. (If you run a grapple build in PFS, ask your GM before every scenario how they rule this. You want to know your limits up front.)

To the OP:

As the GM, you can rule it however you see fit. If you choose to rule it that you can initiate and maintain a grapple on the same round (through greater/rapid grapple or through mythic multi-standard actions), you can still shut down grappling builds with one very easy method:

Multiple enemies.

Grapple is highly effective against a single target, but you can only grapple one target at a time (maybe two with the Grabbing Style tree). While the grappling build is busy with one target, the rest of your bad guys can full attack him, and probably flat-footed.


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Gauss wrote:
Scott Wilhelm, the burden of proof is actually on the "Grapple, Pin, and Tie Up in one round" crowd.

Okay, lets take a look at those Grapple rules.

CRB, Grapple wrote:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe,

Normally, a Grapple attack is a Standard Action.

CRB, Grapple wrote:
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition…. Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target.

This Grapple Action is called Initiate.

CRB, Grapple wrote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold…. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds.

A Grapple has a Duration of 1 Round. If you don't maintain it again, your opponent automatically escapes, and so do you. If you maintain the Grapple for more than 1 round, you get a +5.

CRB, Grapple wrote:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)…. Move... Damage... Pin... Tie Up...

When you make a subsequent successful Grapple Check, you may do more than just maintain the Grapple. You get to do one of those other things. You have to Pin your opponent before you can Tie him Up. You have to Initiate the Grapple before you can Pin him.

The Core Rulebook says right in the Grappling Section of the Combat Maneuvers Section of the of the Special Attacks Section of the Combat Section of the Gamemastering Section of the Core Rulebook that with the first successful Grapple Check, you Initiate the Grapple and with subsequent Grapple Checks, you can do other stuff, such as Pin and then Tie Up. Generally, you can't make more than 1 check/round because each check requires a Standard Action, and you only get 1, unless you have some special ability.

Greater Grapple wrote:
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round

Ah, here we go. If you have Greater Grapple, you are allowed to make Grapple checks as a Move Action. You get a Move Action every round, too.

So, as per the Core Rulebook, I may Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action. If I have the Greater Grapple Feat, then “once I have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action,” so I may take my Move Action to maintain the grapple, not that the Grapple is about to expire, but

CRB, Grapple wrote:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)…. Pin... Tie Up...

So, yes, the Core Rulebook clearly says Greater Grapple allows you to make 2 Grapple Checks in 1 round to Initiate a Grapple and then do something else bad to him.

Greater Grapple wrote:
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent),

Not all grappling Feats and abilities let you do just anything to your opponent. Hamatula Strike only enables Initiating and Damaging. Grab only enables Initiating. But Greater Grapple enables all kinds of things.


Scott Wilhelm,

You are misreading the Greater Grapple feat. Greater Grapple does not state that you are allowed to make grapple checks as a move action. It does state that you are allowed to maintain grapple checks as a move action. That is VERY different.

Since maintain is on subsequent rounds, and since Greater Grapple's move action only applies to maintain checks, you cannot use it on the first round.

Summary: You quoted all the relevant rules but missed key elements of those rules. The most significant of these is that Greater Grapple only changes the action for maintain grapple checks, not grapple checks. The other one is that you seem to agree that maintain checks are done in subsequent rounds but then you ignore that statement (perhaps because of your misreading of Greater Grapple).


Gauss wrote:
You are misreading the Greater Grapple feat.

No, I'm not.

Gauss wrote:
Greater Grapple does not state that you are allowed to make grapple checks as a move action.

Yes, it does.

Gauss wrote:
It does state that you are allowed to maintain grapple checks as a move action. That is VERY different.

No, it is not different at all. It is the same.

CRB, Grapple wrote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.

Maintaining a Grapple is done by making a Grapple Check. And Greater Grapple lets you do it as a Move Action.


Gauss wrote:
Greater Grapple only changes the action for maintain grapple checks, not grapple checks.

Interesting point: Greater Grapple DOES only lets you make maintain-a-Grapple checks as a Move Action. It does NOT let you Initiate a Grapple as a Move Action.

So, if you are currently Grappling your opponent, and you succcessfully Tie Up your opponent as a Standard Action, you are not allowed to then Initiate a Grapple with his friend standing next to you as a Move Action. Greater Grapple's Move Action check only works on opponents you are currently Grappling.

Greater Grapple does not let you make ALL Grapple checks as Move Actions.


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Where does it say grappling maintain is only on subsequent rounds?

Reading that only into it would prove it for me. But I can not find it.


Doesn't seem like very solid reasoning to me.

The idea of only being able to maintain the round after, I mean.

edit- Ah, I kind of see how Gauss could arrive at that conclusion. It seems to rely on the assumption that the general combat rules are perfectly written, though, which they definitely are not.


CRB pg 200 wrote:


Grapple
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold

Since it is a standard action usually can only grapple once a turn, so can only maintain in subsequent rounds.

Greater grapple lets you do 2 grapple check in a round so you could initiate (standard action) a grapple, then maintain (move action)the grapple and pin

CRB pg 125 wrote:


greater grapple
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round

But only maintaining becomes a move action

Quote:
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action
Universal monster rules wrote:


Grab
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action

The only information I could find about grab

So for the OP fleet charge with grab makes grapple check a free action Initiates grapple (1st grapple) then move action maintain grapple pin (2nd grapple) this covers the 2 grapple check from greater grapple
So to make the "tie up" you would have to use the ability that gives extra actions in the turn other wise you have to wait till next turn.


hogarth wrote:

I also weigh in on the side that believes that you can only "maintain" the grapple once a round after the first round. YMMV.

Also, don't forget that at some point the grappler likely has to be holding a chain in one of his/her hands, which may cause a penalty based on one-handed grappling.

I don't recall seeing in the grapple rules or in the description of the Expert Captor Order Ability where you have to have the rope in your hands or that having it in your hands imposes a -4. I recall that Tie Up is just one of those maintain-a-grapple checks you can make. There's no mention of it requiring you have previously pulled out your rope nor suffering a -4 on every grapple check, which I suppose you would say stacks with the -10 that is already there.

Core Rulebook, Gamemastering, Combat, Special Attacks, Combat Maneuvers, Grapple, Tie Up wrote:
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

I don't see where it says you have to have the rope in hand, and you have a -4 for it. Have you seen this rule anywhere else? Would you cite it, please? Personally, I think the penalty you are referring to is subsumed in the -10 to Tie Up your opponent.

If a player is worried about this, then some precautions he can make are to acquire a Robe of Infinite Twine which will produce 10' of rope for you any and every round as a Swift Action. You can carry a lasso or a Dwarven Dorn Duergar (10' Chain) on your belt, and then take the Quickdraw Feat and have your rope as a Free Action.


Paulicus, actually I am basing it on the entire concept of maintain grapple. In the initial round there is nothing to maintain yet. It is pretty basic.

The process (based on the rules) has always been:
Round 1: Initiate grapple check(s)
Round 2+: Maintain grapple check(s)

Just because the action economy has changed does not mean that Maintain checks are suddenly part of round 1. There is nothing yet to maintain.

With that said, I stated at the beginning of my posts in this thread that a GM may be nice and let you do this.


Nevan Oaks wrote:

So for the OP fleet charge with grab makes grapple check a free action Initiates grapple (1st grapple) then move action maintain grapple pin (2nd grapple) this covers the 2 grapple check from greater grapple

So to make the "tie up" you would have to use the ability that gives extra actions in the turn other wise you have to wait till next turn.

The OP's PC's first Attack is made at the cost of a Mythic Power and a Swift Action, not at the cost of a Standard Action.

Tobitastic wrote:

1 - Swift Action - Fleet Charge, which allows a movement and a standard attack at the cost of a use of mythic power. She has a feat that grants her a grab ability, so a successful standard attack initiates grapple.

2 - Standard Action - Maintain the grapple, initiate a pin.
3 - Move Action - Using the Greater Grapple feat, maintain the grapple, tie up the character.

If the first Attack hits, the First Grapple Check is made as part to the Grab Ability as a Free Action.

Once the Grapple is initiated, subsequent checks allow the grappler to Pin and then Tie Up her opponent. Greater Grapple allows 2 checks/round, both as Move Actions once the Grapple has been Initiated.

He wrote it all up on the first post on this thread.

Edit: But I have to admit that I don't know anything about Mythic Powers, so I can't speak to that part.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Gauss has the right of it.


Gauss wrote:
Just because the action economy has changed does not mean that Maintain checks are suddenly part of round 1.

But that is exactly what it means. The whole point of the action economy is to govern which and how many things you can do in a round. The whole point of Feats is that they give you special abilities to do special things, like take privileged actions within the action economy.

What Greater Grapple does is let you make 2 checks in a round, and you can use those to harm your opponent, such as by Pinning them or Tying them Up.

Greater Grapple wrote:
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent)
Gauss wrote:
There is nothing yet to maintain.

That is a fair criticism of Paizo's use of the word "maintain," but it doesn't change the fact that according to the rules, every time you make a successful maintain check, you get to impose one of those other Grapple effects, such as Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up.

Gauss wrote:
With that said, I stated at the beginning of my posts in this thread that I a GM may be nice and let you do this.

We all recognize your authority as the absolute ruler of your man-cave, but in a PFS campaign, you are supposed to go by RAW. I kind of think of all Rules Questions as PFS questions, because in every other situation, the only answer to every rules question is "Ask your GM."


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Gauss has the right of it.

Citation required.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I don't recall seeing in the grapple rules or in the description of the Expert Captor Order Ability where you have to have the rope in your hands or that having it in your hands imposes a -4.

I agree that it doesn't say you have to have a rope/chain in your hands, but that makes sense to me. As for having a hand free...

"Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."

(I looked into the rules when I had the idea to create a grappling, roping PC and I tried to stay with relatively conservative interpretations of the rules.)


hogarth wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I don't recall seeing in the grapple rules or in the description of the Expert Captor Order Ability where you have to have the rope in your hands or that having it in your hands imposes a -4.

I agree that it doesn't say you have to have a rope/chain in your hands, but that makes sense to me. As for having a hand free...

"Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."

(I looked into the rules when I had the idea to create a grappling, roping PC and I tried to stay with relatively conservative interpretations of the rules.)

I can see how you got there. Personally, as I was saying, I feel that need to keep your opponent Pinned while you get out your rope and hottie him is encompassed by that -10 on your roll to execute the Tie Up maneuver.

But given you are still worried about that, what do you think of my suggestions: Robe of Infinite Twine, Quickdraw Feat and a lasso on your belt?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's clearly unclear if even the developers are in disagreement on the issue. That means you need to ask yourself two questions before deciding which way to rule for your table: 1) Will this make the game more fun for our table, and 2) why shouldn't martials get to have nice things?


Ravingdork wrote:
It's clearly unclear if even the developers are in disagreement on the issue. That means you need to ask yourself two questions before deciding which way to rule for your table: 1) Will this make the game more fun for our table, and 2) why shouldn't martials get to have nice things?

This is true even across other parts of the game, non explicit writing is one of the biggest issues in this game. My friends rag on me about my dislike for non defined key words in the game, such as pummeling style using the word punch.

My take on it is this. There is no "initiate" or "maintain" its all just grapple and these words, which are not defined, are used to illustrate state. Initiate is the not yet grapple while maintain is the grappled state, also there technically is a controller state as well but people tend to leave that out. Also note the controller can choose as a free action to not be grappling anymore.

So if you take it as a grapple is a standard action if you are in control of the grapple and choose to continue grappling then you must devote a grapple check to this, its stated that any successful grapple check maintains which means maintain isn't an action of it's self its a consequence. This means maintain isn't an action itself but apart of the grapple check. This is also why maintain isn't an option under grapple and why you choose to do a grapple action and if you succeed then it also maintains.

This means I could use the bushwhacked and greater grapple feats to tie up a person in 1 round even without mythic.

Note: If you peer into the unchained action economy section and look at grapple to me that version shows the true intent of what it's supposed to be.


Onyxlion, so if you are going by Pathfinder Unchained's "true intent" how can you still have the stance you illustrated in your post?

Pathfinder Unchained absolutely states that maintain a grapple cannot be done until the round after you initiate it.

Note: Pathfinder Unchained is a significant modification to the rules system and I am not advocating it as 'the rules' for the purposes of this discussion. I am only stating that if you are going to use it as 'true intent' then you cannot use Greater Grapple during the round you initiate the grapple.


Onyxlion wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
It's clearly unclear if even the developers are in disagreement on the issue. That means you need to ask yourself two questions before deciding which way to rule for your table: 1) Will this make the game more fun for our table, and 2) why shouldn't martials get to have nice things?

This is true even across other parts of the game, non explicit writing is one of the biggest issues in this game. My friends rag on me about my dislike for non defined key words in the game, such as pummeling style using the word punch.

My take on it is this. There is no "initiate" or "maintain" its all just grapple and these words, which are not defined, are used to illustrate state. Initiate is the not yet grapple while maintain is the grappled state, also there technically is a controller state as well but people tend to leave that out. Also note the controller can choose as a free action to not be grappling anymore.

So if you take it as a grapple is a standard action if you are in control of the grapple and choose to continue grappling then you must devote a grapple check to this, its stated that any successful grapple check maintains which means maintain isn't an action of it's self its a consequence. This means maintain isn't an action itself but apart of the grapple check. This is also why maintain isn't an option under grapple and why you choose to do a grapple action and if you succeed then it also maintains.

This means I could use the bushwhacked and greater grapple feats to tie up a person in 1 round even without mythic.

Note: If you peer into the unchained action economy section and look at grapple to me that version shows the true intent of what it's supposed to be.

I never heard of the Bushwacked Feat, before, thanks. Its being from the Monster Codex makes it illegal for PFS, though, doesn't it?

I Grapple and Tie Up in 1 round with a combination of Greater Grapple and the Cavalier Order of the Penitent Ability Expert Captor.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Just because the action economy has changed does not mean that Maintain checks are suddenly part of round 1.

But that is exactly what it means. The whole point of the action economy is to govern which and how many things you can do in a round. The whole point of Feats is that they give you special abilities to do special things, like take privileged actions within the action economy.

What Greater Grapple does is let you make 2 checks in a round, and you can use those to harm your opponent, such as by Pinning them or Tying them Up.

Greater Grapple wrote:
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent)

Only if you ignore the first sentence that states that Greater Grapple applies to maintain grapple checks. This seems to be a significant portion of the problem, many of 'your side' are ignoring that Greater Grapple only applies to maintain checks. That is why action economy is not part of the discussion. The only part of the discussion that is really relevant here is "can you maintain a grapple in the round that you initiate it".

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Gauss wrote:
There is nothing yet to maintain.
That is a fair criticism of Paizo's use of the word "maintain," but it doesn't change the fact that according to the rules, every time you make a successful maintain check, you get to impose one of those other Grapple effects, such as Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up.

I have never disputed that when you make a maintain check you get to apply a grapple effect. I dispute your assertion that you can make a maintain check in the round you initiate a grapple.

In fact, if we were to use Pathfinder Unchained as an indication on how the Devs intend "maintain" to be defined (as Onyxlion is stating it is) then we know the Devs intend that maintain checks only occur in the rounds after a grapple is initiated.

Ultimately, the whole debate revolves around 'can maintain checks be used in the round you initiate grapple'. I, and others, say that no, maintain checks are used only in the rounds afterwards while you and others say yes. That is the whole point to this discussion and perhaps it deserves a FAQ.


Gauss wrote:

Onyxlion, so if you are going by Pathfinder Unchained's "true intent" how can you still have the stance you illustrated in your post?

Pathfinder Unchained absolutely states that maintain a grapple cannot be done until the round after you initiate it.

Note: Pathfinder Unchained is a significant modification to the rules system and I am not advocating it as 'the rules' for the purposes of this discussion. I am only stating that if you are going to use it as 'true intent' then you cannot use Greater Grapple during the round you initiate the grapple.

"As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."

It sure doesn't, it only tells you that you either have to do this to continue to grapple or release. Also note the use of maintain and the switch to continue.

Edit: Misread your post.


Onyxlion, keep reading. It does :)

Pathfinder Unchained p121 wrote:
Greater Grapple (Combat): After you take a move action to successfully maintain a grapple, you can spend 5 stamina points before the end of your turn to maintain that grapple as a swift action. This allows you to make up to three grapple checks to maintain a grapple during a round, but you still can’t maintain a grapple until the round after you initiate it.


Gauss wrote:

Onyxlion, keep reading. It does :)

Pathfinder Unchained p121 wrote:
Greater Grapple (Combat): After you take a move action to successfully maintain a grapple, you can spend 5 stamina points before the end of your turn to maintain that grapple as a swift action. This allows you to make up to three grapple checks to maintain a grapple during a round, but you still can’t maintain a grapple until the round after you initiate it.

Continue a Grapple (2 Acts): You continue a grapple. If

you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action
at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as
a free action. When you take this action, you attempt a
grapple combat maneuver check with a +5 bonus. If you’re
successful, you can either move, deal damage to, or pin the
creature you are grappling. Alternatively, you can attempt
to tie up the creature with a rope.

It has zero stipulation on when it can be used. With this version I don't even need rapid grapple, greater lets me to 2 more grapple checks that same round.


Gauss wrote:

Onyxlion, keep reading. It does :)

Pathfinder Unchained p121 wrote:
Greater Grapple (Combat): After you take a move action to successfully maintain a grapple, you can spend 5 stamina points before the end of your turn to maintain that grapple as a swift action. This allows you to make up to three grapple checks to maintain a grapple during a round, but you still can’t maintain a grapple until the round after you initiate it.

In fact the guy who wrote that said he put that in there because that's how the thought it worked, in fact that's the only place it occurs in the whole of pathfinder.


OnyxLion, actually, it does.

Pathfinder Unchained wrote:
Continue a Grapple (2 Acts): You continue a grapple. If you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as a free action. When you take this action, you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check with a +5 bonus. If you’re successful, you can either move, deal damage to, or pin the creature you are grappling. Alternatively, you can attempt to tie up the creature with a rope.

Clearly the only option to continue (maintain) a grapple according to "Continue a Grapple" is to use it in subsequent turns as defined in the rule. If you are going to change that you must have text that changes that.

The stamina system, which restates some of the feats, then goes on to state what is clearly a basic premise of the system, that you still cannot use a maintain check on the turn you initiate a grapple.

OnyxLion, I do want to thank you for making me look at Pathfinder Unchained. It pretty clearly indicates that the Devs intend maintain checks to be 'rounds after'.

Edit: Do you have a Dev statement that that is not the intent of the rules?

Frankly, I think the 'maintain when you initiate' vs 'maintain in subsequent rounds' debate is nearing its end with no proper resolution due to a lack of clearly defined rules in this regard (other than Pathfinder Unchained). Perhaps a FAQ is in order.


Ravingdork wrote:
It's clearly unclear if even the developers are in disagreement on the issue. That means you need to ask yourself two questions before deciding which way to rule for your table: 1) Will this make the game more fun for our table, and 2) why shouldn't martials get to have nice things?

One thing that is never in shortage in gaming communities is people who do want to ruin everybody's fun either by ruining the plan, accusing somebody of acting out of alignment, or by inventing reasons for saying somebody else's character is illegal. If they can't cite the real rules, they invent notions of the designers' intent and act as if that matters. Never mind that nearly everyone I see play the game uses the rules aggressively to create powerful effects.

Ravingdork, you've put out more characters than anybody, surely you've encountered this.

The only thing you can do about it is demonstrate that what you are doing is in keeping with what the rules say, and if it's a PFS campaign, gently remind the GM that you are a paying customer who is obeying the rules.


Gauss wrote:

OnyxLion, actually, it does.

Pathfinder Unchained wrote:
Continue a Grapple (2 Acts): You continue a grapple. If you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as a free action. When you take this action, you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check with a +5 bonus. If you’re successful, you can either move, deal damage to, or pin the creature you are grappling. Alternatively, you can attempt to tie up the creature with a rope.

Clearly the only option to continue (maintain) a grapple according to "Continue a Grapple" is to use it in subsequent turns as defined in the rule. If you are going to change that you must have text that changes that.

The stamina system, which restates some of the feats, then goes on to state what is clearly a basic premise of the system, that you still cannot use a maintain check on the turn you initiate a grapple.

OnyxLion, I do want to thank you for making me look at Pathfinder Unchained. It pretty clearly indicates that the Devs intend maintain checks to be 'rounds after'.

Even the guy who wrote that feat admitted he didn't really know how it worked so whatever. You are also wildly misreading that statement. The whole statement is "If you initiated the grapple, you must either take this action at the start of each subsequent turn or end the grapple as a free action."

Edit: I agree with you. Heck even unchained has both sides.


Onyxlion, rather than posting second-hand statements without the quotes or links, could you please supply the quote and/or link?

I am not misreading the statement, I am focused on the portion relative to our current discussion which is "when can you use maintaining a grapple".

Who started it (the section I did not bold) is not relevant to the question of "when can you use continuing/maintaining a grapple".
Ending the grapple as a free action is also not relevant to the question of "when can you use continuing/maintaining a grapple".

The bolded section absolutely, unequivocally states that you can only Continue a Grapple in each subsequent turn. Unless there is text that directly contradicts that then, for Pathfinder Unchained, it is clear that you cannot use it at any other time.

Put another way, using the Pathfinder Unchained rules the rules are clearly spelled out in such a way to preclude Continuing a Grapple in the round you initiate a grapple regardless of action economy.


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Gauss wrote:
Only if you ignore the first sentence that states that Greater Grapple applies to maintain grapple checks.

Actually the first sentence of the Benefits of Greater Grapple says

Greater Grapple wrote:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe.

which has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

I think what you mean is

Greater Grapple wrote:
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action.

But this does not negate the fact that Greater Grapple

Greater Grapple wrote:
allows you to make two grapple checks each round

It says I get to do that. It also says that both of those check can be used to make one of the bad stuff things happen to the grappled.

Greater Grapple wrote:
harm, or pin your opponent

The general rules about grappling say this too. This is what they say about maintain-a-grapple checks.

Grappling Rules, Core Rulebook wrote:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

So Greater Grapple lets me make 2 Grapple Check/round. If my first check is successful, I am grappling my opponent. If my second is successful, I may perform one of those other actions as part of the Standard Action--now a Move Action since I have Greater Grapple--to maintain the grapple.

Gauss wrote:
This seems to be a significant portion of the problem, many of 'your side' are ignoring that Greater Grapple only applies to maintain checks.

For my part, I think a significant portion of the problem is that "many of 'your side' " are ignoring the fact that just because you have to make 1 grapple check/round to maintain the Grapple doesn't mean you can't make more. I think that you are ignoring the fact that you get to apply effects on top of every maintain check even if it is one you didn't have to make.

As I said before, what you are describing is Greater Grapple allowing you to make 2 Grapple Checks and keep the better one, which is not an unreasonable Feat to exist. And that is an Ability granted by a 3.5 Prestige Class called the Reaping Mauler in the Book Complete Warrior. But that is not what the Pathfinder rules say.


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Scott Wilhelm, if that is what you think our side is saying then you are COMPLETELY misunderstanding. This is further shown by the fact that you keep providing irrelevant (to the discussion) rules quotes and debates.

Let me try this again. There are two issues here.

1) Does Greater Grapple apply to all Grapple checks or ONLY maintain checks?

Answer: The feat states that it applies to maintain checks and states that you are allowed to make two checks per round.

'My side' does not dispute that you can make two maintain checks per round nor does it dispute the rider benefit of those checks.
We do dispute any statement that action economy change of Greater Grapple applies to all grapple checks.

2) Can you make a maintain check in the round that you initiate a grapple?

Answer: the rules seem to say maintain checks only occur in rounds subsequent to the round you initiate a grapple.
However, there is enough lack of clarity here that it could have multiple readings.
Additionally, Pathfinder Unchained clearly limits Continue (maintain) a Grapple checks to subsequent rounds.
Finally, the Greater Grapple feat under the stamina rules also states that maintain checks only occur on subsequent rounds and even uses phrasing that indicates that is the normal stance.

Now, #2 could use a FAQ, but #1 should be absolutely clear, Greater Grapple applies to maintain checks only but it gives you multiple maintain checks in a round.

P.S., I did not state 'the first sentence of the Benefits of Greater Grapple'. I did not even use the word "Benefits". So please try not to put words into my sentences and thus misread my posts.

My statement was plenty clear in the context of the line of the feat we were discussing.

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