Ahhhh! Crap! I forgot about that! Thank you! As you may or may not be able to tell Pathfinder isn't my usual game. I'm always finding things and thinking "crap! I wish I had known!" Thank you so much! This will be a huge help!!!! :)
Actually you can make any potion. If you do not have the spell known it simply increases the DC of the spell craft check.
Sorry to disagree, but potions, spell trigger and spell completion items specifically cannot skip the spell requirement.
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There is no such thing as an invincible character, and any character who's absurdly good at one trick is bound to have a host of invisible vulnerabilities as the cost of their specialization. It sounds a little to me like your DM has a tunnel-vision problem if he's finding your character "game-breaking" - if I were him, I would try hard to adapt and vary my tactics and the variety of things I threw at your party before just throwing up my hands.
Sorry to disagree, but potions, spell trigger and spell completion items specifically cannot skip the spell requirement.Ahhhh! Crap! I forgot about that! Thank you! As you may or may not be able to tell Pathfinder isn't my usual game. I'm always finding things and thinking "crap! I wish I had known!" Thank you so much! This will be a huge help!!!! :)
Actually you can make any potion. If you do not have the spell known it simply increases the DC of the spell craft check.
CRAP!
There is no such thing as an invincible character, and any character who's absurdly good at one trick is bound to have a host of invisible vulnerabilities as the cost of their specialization. It sounds a little to me like your DM has a tunnel-vision problem if he's finding your character "game-breaking" - if I were him, I would try hard to adapt and vary my tactics and the variety of things I threw at your party before just throwing up my hands.
I don't think he has thrown up his hands. He didn't ask me to tone my character down, but I did notice a lack of fun on his part.
I just don't want to be source of anyone not enjoying the game as much as they could, the PC's or the DM.
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In response to your dilemma I myself will give my experience.
In my campaign we all started at 3rd level as in the GM's world there is no such thing as below that level. Hp is dont a strange way, its is HD -3 +1d4. Every level including fist so low HP from bad rolls isnt a thing. (Save d12 which is HD -4)
My character, Hebimoto Jin ( Surname first ) is similar to your own but truthfully he would make your character shiver in comparison.
A few things before we go about the rest of the story and party. In this world/Game the GM pretty much bones martials on loot and capability but rewards casters, so the very thought of being one means you are fighting an uphill battle.
Now Story Time, originally my character started off as a burster, strike type person. He was a very confident swordsman with a mission and no time for weak or needless things. He was very scary and always accepted a challenge as long as the recipient was aware of the risk.
He was Samurai 2/Magus 1 in that rendition. The party was originally (excluding myself) A Human Fighter/Alchemist, a Drow Ninja, a Kitsune Wizard and A Drow Archer Fighter. The Ninja and Wizard were fairly new and thus asked questions I gladly answered. The Fighter/Alchemist played with me previously, he normally plays.. wizards for whatever reason. He was new to martials. The Drow Fighter had experience but was fairly lowball.
Anyway we go along, the Alch player doesnt do well having issues rolling well or mastering the flow, the Archer the same, the ninja and wizard I remind to do their abilities from time to time as a suggestion and they do fairly fine. (This was all before unchained and whatnot) jin does well critting when appropriate and one shotting bosses. It was mostly luck but no more skilled than Two handing a Katana and Spell Striking with power attack.
Eventually the Alch notes that without said one-shotting combat goes not well for alot of the group and switches to Life oracle to heal. The Spiteful player plays the Drow archer who tries to upset my character at every turn. His character eventually leaves for an NPC and for his own life after one more confrontation which he lost.
So now we have a different issue, we had no person who was tanky. And that wouldnt go well with the composition. So The DM allowed me to with a story element of falling in combat and being willed to protect his 'Friends' Change to a Bloodrager/Samurai of the Black Dragon Variety.
This was done for two reasons, it allowed my character to stay relatively the same while not forcing OTHER people to change or be forced to adjust their playstyles. I missed Spellstrike.
The Spiteful person brings in a Skald who not listing to the party and my character (Who somehow became the leader by popular vote) died 2 hours in the session. He came back as an half orc Summoner. There was the )At this point) Standard macho off and his character was dissatisfied.
Effectively his character died/changed a few times and now he is aasimar Cleric.
Effectively what happened along the way is, if people were having trouble making actions in play i would give them suggestion or remind them of buffs. In character I made enemies weak and intimated the strongest to come after me. I effectively made my character strong enough to carry the party through confidently , making them weaker with my Cruel Katana, making them shaken and sickened which allows the Wizards spells to stick. I make the threat known so they target me rather than any of the squishy persons. Remind the Ninja he should go invisible for a round and then use the ki defensively so he does not get reprisal.
It has been very necessary as until then the party was, My character (As he currently is in the sheet) The Kistune Wizard, The Ninja (Who we allowed things from unchained Rogue like free weapon Finesse)/Slayer/Crimson Assasin, A halfling Wizard (Who was the previous Life Oracle) and a Dwarf Brawler. I was both the only person capable of healing due to Archetypes and only personally.. as well as the Tank and Damage.
The DM has kept things in check by giving me this curse, sending the tough creatures at me after they notice the threat, placed restrictions by RP scenarios ( Both the Curse and the Geas that forces him to protect EVERY member of the party [Yes this was because of the spiteful player] ) It works out fine. The other thought is.. IF I reduced myself.. then the other players would be forced to change too dramatically or get killed off because the challenges werent made just for me.. they were made for the party but with a much different comp. A position that both me and the OP is in means you must responsibly handle any nerfs you do.. too much and you go down and that might end in a TPK, which NO ONE wants.
In response to your dilemma I myself will give my experience.
In my campaign we all started at 3rd level as in the GM's world there is no such thing as below that level. Hp is dont a strange way, its is HD -3 +1d4. Every level including fist so low HP from bad rolls isnt a thing. (Save d12 which is HD -4)
My character, Hebimoto Jin ( Surname first ) is similar to your own but truthfully he would make your character shiver in comparison.
A few things before we go about the rest of the story and party. In this world/Game the GM pretty much bones martials on loot and capability but rewards casters, so the very thought of being one means you are fighting an uphill battle.
Now Story Time, originally my character started off as a burster, strike type person. He was a very confident swordsman with a mission and no time for weak or needless things. He was very scary and always accepted a challenge as long as the recipient was aware of the risk.
He was Samurai 2/Magus 1 in that rendition. The party was originally (excluding myself) A Human Fighter/Alchemist, a Drow Ninja, a Kitsune Wizard and A Drow Archer Fighter. The Ninja and Wizard were fairly new and thus asked questions I gladly answered. The Fighter/Alchemist played with me previously, he normally plays.. wizards for whatever reason. He was new to martials. The Drow Fighter had experience but was fairly lowball.
Anyway we go along, the Alch player doesnt do well having issues rolling well or mastering the flow, the Archer the same, the ninja and wizard I remind to do their abilities from time to time as a suggestion and they do fairly fine. (This was all before unchained and whatnot) jin does well critting when appropriate and one shotting bosses. It was mostly luck but no more skilled than Two handing a Katana and Spell Striking with power attack.
Eventually the Alch notes that without said one-shotting combat goes not well for alot of the group and switches to Life...
Wow, thank you so much for sharing! We are in VERY similar position. I really like how your curse affects you. You have given me a lot to think about. I like the idea of using intimidates and what not to help the two casters stick their spells. I like the idea that your job is to protect EVERYONE! I also like that that you call out the biggest baddest monsters.
These are a few ideas I had been toying around with but seeing them utilized through what you have shared has illustrated the need to be delicate with nerfs while also fulfilling a vital role that isn't being filled by anyone else. This is a lot to think about. Thank you for sharing. I am in perilous situation too much nerf bat could mean doom. To little could leave sour faces. At the same time any at all could leave bruised egos...Hrmm....
Ok, thanks to all you wonderful, weird, powerful, sagely, crafters of tales and God-like beings....
I am going to bed, because even super heroes need sleep.
I still haven't decided 100% on exactly what I'm going to do, but I have a much better idea than when I first got here--and I have a few different paths to explore in my handling of this situation.
Keep the advise, thoughts, and perspectives coming; I honestly appreciate it all. Thanks again.
I will read and respond more tomorrow...or later today...it doesn't count if I haven't slept yet. G'night.
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In particular the GM is using the curse and other restrictions as RP plot points and driving forces.
Much like the Golarion world, the GM's world has Gods, living active deities. My character spurns and hates them and prayed to none attributing any failure or success to himself and himself alone. He was adamant about this and almost as if the story enforced it, he crush enemies thusly. It wasnt until our party had a meeting with Griffons (Which in this word are super mystical beings that watch over the world and our current mission of saving it). My character, keeping to his guns, called the Griffons out on there mannerisms and, unfortunately, was correct and completely truthful. This caused a Fight of Honor to break out (this was due to the spiteful character again) Well the Griffon's Champion took up the challenge instead for the Spiteful player. We fought and she paralyzed me.
The party was sent away and I was left there healing slowly because of the particular abilities of said character. A Deal was offered to fix the effect by the leader of the Griffons and thus I got Geas'd. If I go against it my soul is destroyed. Not soon after that My character was hit with terrible pain. it was found out that his spine (Which he cut his own back open to find out) was being replaced with Platinum piece by piece.
The only thing that could have done something like this to our knowledge was a God. So we assumed a God was punishing him for spurning them because of his success. It's found out the curse was getting worse the penalty jumping to -2 then to -4 (Which dues to my bonuses i powered through) and in 30 days would kill me.
This caused to party to have to rush our current task and then move on to finding a cure, which required travel across the world. Teleportation Magic was banned so the DM took the que to introduce his airships.
A little along the story we arrive in the place, which is housed by Monk-like monkey-people. They explain the curse is something different and the party finds out that the platinum covering on Hebimoto's spine isnt a deity trying to kill him, but instead trying to lessen the curse and keep it at bay. The Curse was actually placed by a Villain that had been watching the group and had noticed my character was a major Threat that he could NOT fight directly due to his prowess.
This is so assbackwards I don't have words for it. It seems the problem is not only the weak builds in your group, but also lack of good tactical understanding.
Don't cheapen your own character's abilities for the sake of your party. Help your fellow players improve their characters!
One way you can do that is by sending them, and their character sheets, to us. We will be happy to critique and give advice.
Before you know it, only a few of those encounters will seem deadly and, hopefully, you will all have more fun for it.
If you and your players need inspiration, check out my Crazy Character Emporium (particularly the "master link" in the first post), where you can find nearly 150 great characters, plus useful tools, templates, and homebrew concepts.
It looks like you're 9th-level, so I'm guessing your team is around that level too. Here are some 9th-level characters from the gallery for you to compare to you and your party:
Aldiss Lear, mindblade magus capable of getting over a half dozen attacks
Aneelde Cansiv, black dragon sycophant
Dreg Jawbreaker, a simple, hard-hitting fighter
Drosil, Time Lord 'nuff said
Edleena Visnac, gold dragon sycophant and Aneelde's long-lost sister
Father Grigori, a mastermind in the same vein as Victor Von Doom
Gebralter, pirate and master illusionist
Grimm the Bear, barbarian thug with a penchant for giving lethal bear hugs
Krammer, kobold grenadier that can likely unleash more devistation in a round than most storms
Lailah Hael, dedicated healer who knows that she can do more
Noka Muun, vicious android pirate who likes to push others around
Remy, a hard-hitting, acid-spewing arcane trickster known for melting faces
Riko Mycen, a dedicated flanker who is rightfully feared
Rowan Mouri, a nasty necromancer specializing in debuffs
Siinsa Tosscobble, a highly effective knockout artist and general leg-breaking thug
Skivven, ratfolk plague bearer who flies about on his own tumor steed
Sootscale, Kobold scorpion rider
Tolu Wrang, possessed demon avatar
Now, these guys aren't all min/maxed by any sense of the word, but I get the impression they are another level over what you've described to us. Also, please keep in mind that these were all built using 25-point buy, and so might have a +1 or +2 bonus over that which you might with your own characters.
I hope that helps! Please check out my thread above and leave a like, leave a comment. There are dozens of other level 8-10 characters there that might further inspire you and yours (as well as characters of other levels).
AC 30 on a 9th level character isn't broken.
It's normal.
AC 30 on a 9th level character isn't broken.
It's normal.
For a fighting character such as a fighter, monk, or paladin perhaps. Not so much on the lightly armored spellcasters and others.
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For a fighting character such as a fighter, monk, or paladin perhaps. Not so much on the lightly armored spellcasters and others.AC 30 on a 9th level character isn't broken.
It's normal.
Alchemist would like to talk to you.
Ac works on a basic formula.
AC at 10+level is squish, this is AC that lets mooks hit you about half the time
AC at 15 +level is Frontliner, This will make it where mooks miss you you but advanced mooks hit you half the time
AC at 20+level is tank, This is AC that allows you to wade through mooks, stave off Advance mooks and stand up to those Bruisers and Boss types half the time.
So by my measurements an AC of about 29 is where he should be at.
I've been feeling bad at (just having attained) 10th level in a home RotRL campaign because my DD5/Sor4/Or1(Lore) has been hitting an AC of 31(if they remember to cast Mage Armor, 28 without).
Our fighter is more of a 'scrapper' build with an AC in the low-mid 20's, our Bones Oracle hits mid-high 20s (if she remembers to use her bone armor), and our unchained rogue is at 24ish.
I hadn't designed my character to be a tank, but they are shaping into one...
I've talked with the GM about the situation, and his response has been pretty much what has been on the thread here -- 'Don't worry. It's natural to feel like you're overpowered. But consider the recent fights, and how close some of them have been. DON'T talk about nerfing your character, and realize that things are going to get *rougher* from here on out.'
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For a fighting character such as a fighter, monk, or paladin perhaps. Not so much on the lightly armored spellcasters and others.AC 30 on a 9th level character isn't broken.
It's normal.
Alchemist would like to talk to you.
Ac works on a basic formula.
AC at 10+level is squish, this is AC that lets mooks hit you about half the time
AC at 15 +level is Frontliner, This will make it where mooks miss you you but advanced mooks hit you half the time
AC at 20+level is tank, This is AC that allows you to wade through mooks, stave off Advance mooks and stand up to those Bruisers and Boss types half the time.
So by my measurements an AC of about 29 is where he should be at.
I don't know what game you're playing. But at level 9 if the bad guy can't consistently hit AC 24 the GM is doing something wrong. And if the bad guy is hitting AC 19 only half the time then the GM needs to start rolling with a d20 instead of a d2.
Our fighter is more of a 'scrapper' build...
City of Heroes reference?
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The problem is, monsters can't hit me. If my DM buffed the monsters to be a challenge for me they would murder the others.
Let's look at some CR10 monsters that should be the easy fodder for a group of lvl9 adventurers.
Snake, Constrictor (Giant Anaconda)
AC 25, hp 126
Melee bite +19 (4d6+19/19–20 plus grab)
Would hit your 26 on a 7 or above or your 30 on a eleven or above. Sounds ok.
Demon, Kalavakus (Horned Demon)
AC 25, hp 125
Melee bite +16 (1d6+6), 2 claws +16 (1d8+6), gore +16 (2d6+6)
Special Attacks enslave soul, horns, powerful charge (gore, 4d6+12)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +15)
At will--command (DC 14), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), telekinesis (DC 18)
3/day--air walk, dominate person (DC 18), haste
1/day--greater command (DC 18), summon (level 4, 1 kalavakus 40%), symbol of persuasion (DC 19)
While he'll hit you less often, with a look at his other abilities, I wouldn't be so concerned about whether he hits you...
Blue Dragon, Juvenile
AC 24/ 30 with mage armor, hp 126
Melee bite +18 (2d6+9), 2 claws +17 (1d8+6), 2 wings +15 (1d6+3), tail slap +15 (1d8+9)
Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +3)
1st (4/day)—mage armor, true strike
He'll hit you 3 times easily via true strike, and on a 12 or higher for his first attack.
And finally:
If monsters realize, that you're hard to hit - why don't they attack something else?
If we look at Cr12 monsters, they should easily hit you, I checked a couple of them randomly and found stuff like
Melee 2 slams +23 (2d10+8 plus grab)
and
Melee bite +20 (4d8+18/19–20)
Ranged 6 strands +10 touch (1d6 Strength)
I think, you're fine.
For a fighting character such as a fighter, monk, or paladin perhaps. Not so much on the lightly armored spellcasters and others.AC 30 on a 9th level character isn't broken.
It's normal.
He's got fullplate, so it isn't like it's a super high AC.
I mean, it's GOOD, sure... but he said he made a tank. So that's what he got.
Our fighter is more of a 'scrapper' build...City of Heroes reference?
Our fighter is more of a 'scrapper' build...City of Heroes reference?
There is still a chance of it coming back some day. There are groups working to purchase the game and run it, but the deals seem to have been slowed down by Nexon's attempt of a hostile takeover of NCSoft. From the sounds of it, there is a ridiculous amount of red tape, so it may never happen. But there is a chance.
High AC hate is all around. Many DMs hate high AC because the monsters don't get to unload lots of melee damage onto the PC. Not infrequently the PC has traded higher HP, higher damage output, and other survival options for the high AC, but that doesn't seem to assuage the DM's sense of frustration in some cases. Many players also hate high AC. Some seem to consider it kind of unsporting. Others fear that if one PC's AC is too high the DM will use monsters with higher and higher attack bonuses until all the other PCs get slaughtered. In fact, more than a few DMs say that if you keep raising your AC they'll be "forced" to do that.
If AC level+15 is "frontliner" and AC level+20 is "tank" then what would AC level+25 be? Where do folks think "too high" begins? Whatever the upper limit is, should it include stuff like fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, and Crane Style or assume that it is always OK to trade attack for defense even if you have a good AC to begin with?
@Glord - Why should CR10 monsters be "easy fodder" for level 9 PCs? I mean, CR10 would be APL+1, which is supposed to be "Challenging"
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@Glord - Why should CR10 monsters be "easy fodder" for level 9 PCs? I mean, CR10 would be APL+1, which is supposed to be "Challenging"You're both wrong [Devilkiller on a technicality]
APL+1 is supposed to be "moderately challenging." Pretty easy but with a slight chance things might go wrong.
Also, remember that the CR system is designed with a totally average, "viable" party in mind. The second anyone starts optimizing, CR kinda goes out the window.
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If AC level+15 is "frontliner" and AC level+20 is "tank" then what would AC level+25 be? Where do folks think "too high" begins? Whatever the upper limit is, should it include stuff like fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, and Crane Style or assume that it is always OK to trade attack for defense even if you have a good AC to begin with?
I actually have that, AC level +25 is juggernaut AC this is AC where even Bosses have issues hitting as well as Bruisers and Advance mooks become Mooks. You can still get hit but the floor just rises of things that often do not hit you. So a 35 at level 10 is still hit by CR 10's and then that variance allows up to CR 12's (possible bosses) to have to think. That sort of AC tends to be Temporary of contingent on some trick. As I said its a baseline that often works. Especially against other humanoids. Often enough its not to prevent the first attack from hitting (( the System)) but for you not to get hit by EVERY single attack.
@kyrt-ryder - I pulled the description of APL+1 as "Challenging" directly off a table on the PRD's "Gamemastering" page.
@Endoralis - Do you consider “juggernaut” AC to be a game balance problem? Whether or not it is difficult to achieve that sort of AC probably depends on how strictly you interpret the WBL suggestions for what percentage of wealth a character should spend on any one category of magic items. If your PC who wears armor spends 50% of your WBL raising AC you'll probably hit level+25 AC pretty easily. Some folks might say that's not permitted since you're only supposed to spend 20% of your WBL on armor and defensive items. More would probably say that those suggestions only apply to character creation, not purchases made by a PC leveled up during play or that spending more on armor is reasonable for a Fighter (which I'd mostly agree with)
Bob Bob Bob - A lot of monsters use natural attacks without iteratives. I guess that can make the impact of an especially high (or low) AC on a PC more apparent during play. Touch AC is often a conspicuous weak point. Overall I'd say that using Mirror Images with a decent AC probably works better than super high AC in the long run (at least in mechanical terms and assuming you get a chance to buff)