Forty Watt's page

We have a phone-it-in Life Oracle Healbot in our game. He does nothing but suck up exp and doesn't contribute. All of the new players I meet lately thinks there needs to be a WoW type healer that does absolutely nothing except for cast maybe one spell once per combat.

WoW is ruining "healers"

Ok, thanks to all you wonderful, weird, powerful, sagely, crafters of tales and God-like beings....
I am going to bed, because even super heroes need sleep.

I still haven't decided 100% on exactly what I'm going to do, but I have a much better idea than when I first got here--and I have a few different paths to explore in my handling of this situation.

Keep the advise, thoughts, and perspectives coming; I honestly appreciate it all. Thanks again.

I will read and respond more tomorrow...or later today...it doesn't count if I haven't slept yet. G'night.

In response to your dilemma I myself will give my experience.

In my campaign we all started at 3rd level as in the GM's world there is no such thing as below that level. Hp is dont a strange way, its is HD -3 +1d4. Every level including fist so low HP from bad rolls isnt a thing. (Save d12 which is HD -4)

My character, Hebimoto Jin ( Surname first ) is similar to your own but truthfully he would make your character shiver in comparison.

>>Sheet<<

A few things before we go about the rest of the story and party. In this world/Game the GM pretty much bones martials on loot and capability but rewards casters, so the very thought of being one means you are fighting an uphill battle.

Now Story Time, originally my character started off as a burster, strike type person. He was a very confident swordsman with a mission and no time for weak or needless things. He was very scary and always accepted a challenge as long as the recipient was aware of the risk.

He was Samurai 2/Magus 1 in that rendition. The party was originally (excluding myself) A Human Fighter/Alchemist, a Drow Ninja, a Kitsune Wizard and A Drow Archer Fighter. The Ninja and Wizard were fairly new and thus asked questions I gladly answered. The Fighter/Alchemist played with me previously, he normally plays.. wizards for whatever reason. He was new to martials. The Drow Fighter had experience but was fairly lowball.

Anyway we go along, the Alch player doesnt do well having issues rolling well or mastering the flow, the Archer the same, the ninja and wizard I remind to do their abilities from time to time as a suggestion and they do fairly fine. (This was all before unchained and whatnot) jin does well critting when appropriate and one shotting bosses. It was mostly luck but no more skilled than Two handing a Katana and Spell Striking with power attack.

Eventually the Alch notes that without said one-shotting combat goes not well for alot of the group and switches to Life...

Wow, thank you so much for sharing! We are in VERY similar position. I really like how your curse affects you. You have given me a lot to think about. I like the idea of using intimidates and what not to help the two casters stick their spells. I like the idea that your job is to protect EVERYONE! I also like that that you call out the biggest baddest monsters.

These are a few ideas I had been toying around with but seeing them utilized through what you have shared has illustrated the need to be delicate with nerfs while also fulfilling a vital role that isn't being filled by anyone else. This is a lot to think about. Thank you for sharing. I am in perilous situation too much nerf bat could mean doom. To little could leave sour faces. At the same time any at all could leave bruised egos...Hrmm....

There is no such thing as an invincible character, and any character who's absurdly good at one trick is bound to have a host of invisible vulnerabilities as the cost of their specialization. It sounds a little to me like your DM has a tunnel-vision problem if he's finding your character "game-breaking" - if I were him, I would try hard to adapt and vary my tactics and the variety of things I threw at your party before just throwing up my hands.

I don't think he has thrown up his hands. He didn't ask me to tone my character down, but I did notice a lack of fun on his part.

I just don't want to be source of anyone not enjoying the game as much as they could, the PC's or the DM.

Forty Watt wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Forty Watt wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Actually you can make any potion. If you do not have the spell known it simply increases the DC of the spell craft check.

Ahhhh! Crap! I forgot about that! Thank you! As you may or may not be able to tell Pathfinder isn't my usual game. I'm always finding things and thinking "crap! I wish I had known!" Thank you so much! This will be a huge help!!!! :)

Sorry to disagree, but potions, spell trigger and spell completion items specifically cannot skip the spell requirement.

CRAP!

In my opinion, you don't need help meeting him, the other players need help improving their own characters. The fact that you guys keep getting mopped is just another testament to that

I came in as Grippli shaman and knew almost nothing about the party. I liked me little frog, he was naive, gullible, and silly--in a fun way. Also in a way in which he didn't contribute very well to uncovering the plot to RotRL. He was a very reactionary character, unless it meant playing with slugs or running off to talk to random spirits...think of a 12 year old kid who had too many day dreams, too much sugar, and a slight learning disability, and was from some strange foreign land. I knew the party had a few problems but wasn't aware of the extent.

So for the first several games, it was just me ( the shaman ), the oracle, and the magus ( who from what I am putting together was a shame of a magus ). So it was essentially just the Magus and I. We got our butts kicked in. Two or three games later, the rogue joined, the rogue quickly became the go to for damage. Our poor magus was trying to tank, but just couldn't do it, so it destroyed my versatility because I had to maintain Mammoth as my wandering spirit in order to put stone skin on the Magus so our tank could actually tank, and it relegated me to party buffer...which I was not built to do. I was a versatility build.

About 6 weeks of this and I had had enough. So enter my new character the DD. I miss my Grippli, but if we were to have any chance of surviving ( and actually engaging in the story because the magus and oracle don't really engage in RP and the rogue and I had no idea what was going on ) I had to switch it up.

Ugh, it always bugs me when someone with a reasonably built character feels like they're being disruptive. I can tell you, as a regular DM, you're not. I've also been that guy, the one who plays with a bunch of people who barely understand the game, but THINK they know what they're talking about.

First off, you have to have faith that they will learn. Secondly, you have to be willing to help them learn in an unobtrusive way. Talk to the Oracle about spell choices and recommend a more versatile spell layout if they want to contribute more to combat. Always do what you can to remind that rogue to flank, etc. And finally, remember that having bigger damage numbers than everyone isn't stealing the show. It's what you DO. This is Pathfinder. Your goal is to make your numbers better than enemy numbers, and if you are wading through your foes like an unstoppable juggernaut, your allies should be rejoicing.

Also, a Titan Centipede, an equal CR opponent, has a roughly 50/50 chance of hitting you at 26 AC. Unless the DM is throwing a bunch of CR3s at you, you shouldn't be untouchable. An actually difficult encounter should be hitting you regularly.

I like this advise about how to advise in an unobtrusive way. Social paradigms are not my strong suit. Thank you!

Forty Watt wrote:

I really like this character and have built and extensive background. I want to keep this character, but I also realize that in our game, compared to a couple of other characters ( at least) he is broken.

So I need help. How can I effectively nerf him while keeping him tanky and keeping his flavor. Please, help. Thank you in advance.

First things first, congratulations on spotting the issue that your PC is built with an optimization level incomparable with the rest of the party and that, as the odd man out, the onus is on you to reduce the disruption this will cause.

Rebuilding a little might help. Shuffling a little strength into Intelligence would net you another skill point per level and give you another value to the party, if they lack something.

Whatever you rebuild, I'd keep the save feats. They don't so much boost your power as ameliorate certain vulnerabilities that don't always come up.

Another option is in style of combat. If you are built that much tougher than the other PCs, it makes sense for you to seek out the toughest opponents for some mano a mano action. If you play that up, the GM may get the clue to feed into it. It's a way for him to throw tougher opponents against you without targeting your squishier comrades.

Thank you for this sage advice! We are lacking in some knowledge skills that would help the party greatly! Moving some STR to INT is a fantastic idea.

I will certainly be calling out the biggest baddest monsters in the fray and challenging them! Again, sage advise, sir!

Forty Watt wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

This is a clear case of a near sighted man being a god in the land of the blind. Your character is not over powered the rest of the party is incredibly weak. Your willingness to tone down your character does you credit. When I hear the rouge is the second most powerful character it really makes me wonder. If the rogue is an unchained rogue that is more understandable, but still surprising.

What I would suggest is actually try and boost up the rest of the party. Strange as it may seem brew potion is one of your most effective tactics. The best thing to do is to spread the wealth around. Instead of just brewing potions for your own use brew potions for the entire party. I have an player running an alchemist in a game I run that took the infusion discovery and hands out extracts to all the players. You could even have them pay the cost of the potion. I don’t know any player that would not love to get potions at half off.

I've been handing some potions to the Rogue and he LOVES me! The other potions I can currently make don't do much for the casters unfortunately, but I will certainly be spending more time trying to give them cool buff potions!

EDIT

Yeah, the Rogue is unchained I believe. I think he may also have a level or two of Ninja...but I'm not certain.

Actually you can make any potion. If you do not have the spell known it simply increases the DC of the spell craft check.

Ahhhh! Crap! I forgot about that! Thank you! As you may or may not be able to tell Pathfinder isn't my usual game. I'm always finding things and thinking "crap! I wish I had known!" Thank you so much! This will be a huge help!!!! :)

Im not so sure on pulling it off. Suddenly NOT using Enlarge Person when it gives you reach, Str bonuses and a Bigger axe, when that was your go to is very VERY noticeable. The same can be said of dropping armor but not casting shield. As I said these are noticeable and do not assume the players are not adults. We as humans make note of extreme changes. It would be the same if the Wizard known to Fireball things.. suddenly cast Burning hands... because.

I'll give you the full story in another post, i just wanted to get this idea out separately from that.

You make a good point...

This is a clear case of a near sighted man being a god in the land of the blind. Your character is not over powered the rest of the party is incredibly weak. Your willingness to tone down your character does you credit. When I hear the rouge is the second most powerful character it really makes me wonder. If the rogue is an unchained rogue that is more understandable, but still surprising.

What I would suggest is actually try and boost up the rest of the party. Strange as it may seem brew potion is one of your most effective tactics. The best thing to do is to spread the wealth around. Instead of just brewing potions for your own use brew potions for the entire party. I have an player running an alchemist in a game I run that took the infusion discovery and hands out extracts to all the players. You could even have them pay the cost of the potion. I don’t know any player that would not love to get potions at half off.

I've been handing some potions to the Rogue and he LOVES me! The other potions I can currently make don't do much for the casters unfortunately, but I will certainly be spending more time trying to give them cool buff potions!

EDIT

Yeah, the Rogue is unchained I believe. I think he may also have a level or two of Ninja...but I'm not certain.

There is a large concern I believe some people are not touching on here. Especially with talk of him nerfing his own character by doing different actions/ methods. The other players. What do I mean by this? The factor that seems to elude these suggestions are that the other players will EASILY notice that his character and the player are doing vastly different tactics from the norm, especially when they seemed more successful previously.

I am not sure about you all but as a player I would feel pretty bad if it seems like another player is holding my hand or lessening themselves to placate some preconceived feelings I might have by being.. inadequate. Im sure people would feel the same about the DM doing something similar with a monster. If at level 5 we had an epic Dragon fight where the nemey used its capabilities and we barely pulled by... but at level 9 the enemy doesnt use half the effects they did before AND we know its stronger? I would have a bad time.

I have a similar issue in my group though I've fixed it with more suggestions and supportive direction. Only one player/character goes against it and is out of spite. I find it funny that the build is similar as far as character.. I also have a long history for my character.

Even recently I've had some curse afflict him giving a -4 to attack rolls and skill checks.

You do bring up something valid! I was considering the ramifications of this as well. However I think I could pull it off without them being the wiser. I could say I changed armor to lessen my spell failure, and started using my intimidate feats in order to help the Witch. I could easily replace some feats that they haven't seen with some intimate feats. This, however; is still a concern for me.

I would love to hear more about the issue in your group and the various lengths you've gone to correct it.

Many others have mentioned just talking to the players and encouraging them to use their characters in ways that they don't. I know this is sage advice, and I know it is likely my own social anxiety that is keeping me from doing this more, but I don't want to get on anyone's nerves. I don't really know these people that well and have just met them. I don't want to come of as critical or condescending.

The DM needs to up his game, you don't need to nerf yours.

However, here are some ideas:

Instead of shield, make a potion of expeditious retreat; it'll offset your penalty to speed for wearing the full plate.

Instead of enlarge person, how about long arm to still give yourself the extra reach without the bonus to strength?

Thank you!

Sounds like you have two options:

1. Reduce your power level to match the groups. Good suggestions have been made (less buffs, less armor).

2. Help the other players do better. Send them guides or give them some simple tips on how they can contribute more to combat, and how to cover up weaknesses or take advantage of strengths.

Also, I'm guessing your GM isn't very experienced, if he's having trouble dealing with characters you've described at level 9. You say you're an experienced GM -- give him some tips on how to run various monsters and how to create interesting encounters. Looks up some guides and see where your own weakpoints are, and maybe everyone else will benefit.

Or, see if they'd be willing to switch you into the GM seat.

In any case, the most important thing is having fun.

Thank you for your suggestions! I cherish my DM, I really do. I love playing in his game. As I said in another post, I'm a little nervous about offering advice to people as these are people I have just met and don't want to seem critical or condescending, but that is likely my own social anxiety. I am actually starting a game on a different night, but not everyone enjoys 5th Edition. I do look forward to getting behind the screen again though.

Thank you for your input! I shall take it to heart.

Even a Life oracle can do more than heal.

They can buff, flank with the rogue, cast murderous command (one of my all time favorite spells!), tank (you don't NEED Combat Reflexes to act like a reach cleric!), and they have good skills.

I actually looked over Oracle because I thought to myself "your class can't just be that empty" Oracle is awesome. The only spells I've seen our Oracle cast is Restore, 3 versions of cure, Heavens Teardrop, Prayer, Bless, and Protection from Evil. I'm 100% literal, no hyperbole. Most of the time you can consider our 4 man party and 3 man party--because he doesn't do much. The weird thing is...I think it is by design of the player...

I think the answer is obvious: Unless you are relying on potions, don't chug them. Not buffing the crap out of yourself can do a lot. Being more stingy with your potion use can very your power wildly.

Honestly, the only potion I used was Enlarge--and two of the times I used it was to carry two casters up a stair case made for large creatures, cause their climb sucks--and I didn't want to try the climb with my armor check.

But I will take your advice to heart; thank you. :)

Goblin priest gets a +1 for calling out the rest of the dead weight tho.

So far you have said they RP very little and make some sub optimal characters.

You can either show them how to get better or just suffer.

The group I'm with now has 2 newer players in it. I've shown them stuff in game that has inspired them to want to make stronger and more functional characters as well as shown them you can add any RP style to a mechaniclly sound character.

I feel proud when they tell me what they learned from me has made them better players and shining stars in other groups.

Mythbusters has proven you can polish a turd but after the hours of work its still a turd.

Teach them this time around and hope your lessons stick.

I am attempting to be more of a presence in the group and try to get the players to think about their characters in new ways. The Magus player has GREATLY improved with his new Witch, he seems to have grasped the concept of buffs and debuffs. I swear I saw a moment where his eyes lit up when he realized the impact that his slumber has in game.

It might boil down to some personal social anxiety, but I try not to offer too much advice out of a desire not to be seen as condescending or critical. They knew our DM and was playing in the game long before I came in. I've never met them outside of game, so I'm concerned that it might be weird for the new guy to show up and be like, "Man, let me show you some crazy stuff." Like I said though, that is likely my own personal issue. Though I have been making more of an effort to open their eyes to some possibilities.

Rouge is the weakest core class.

Life Oracle who only heals and buffs is a waste of space.

No wonder you feel strong compared to the weakest base class and a waste of space overly dedicated heal bot.

I swear it honestly feels like the Oracle is playing WoW. He did a little more tonight than he usually does. But I haven't seen many characters do less...ever...

No magus to compare to now, OK. If you can redo part of your character you might consider focusing a bit on tactics which will drop enemy saves a bit which may make the witch more useful. Intimidate (ideally with a feat or two which makes that less than a standard action), riving strike, etc.

You might drop the save boosting feats to get these to give your character (more of) an achilles heel for the DM to hit.

I like the intimidate idea! I was actually considering going into intimidate feats later. I could dump the iron will and great fortitude for them. That would eat a standard and keep me from dishing damage for a turn, and buff the witch! Thank you for the marvelous inspiration!

Maybe drop Furious Focus so you get a penalty when Power Attacking?

Maybe drop the full plate? It would lower your AC and maybe let you cast better? Are mithril chain shirts available?

It is quite admirable that you are willing to alter your character to enhance everyone's fun! :-D

Thank you! I appreciate the compliment and your excellent ideas. I might be able to turn in the full plate for chain, my DM is more than willing to work with me. I'm just kinda overwhelmed by the game today and wasn't even sure where to begin the alterations.

So if we got this straight, you created a mediocre character, and the DM is angry you didn't gimp yourself as bad as the other worthless characters in the party?

Nah, he's not angry. He is a great DM. We both agree though that I am a little out of place within the confines of our game environment.

I see a couple of problems. First if you are using a point buy you are a 28 point character so I assume you rolled for stats. This often creates problems if the rest of the group did not roll as well. This is the biggest reason for using a point buy instead of rolling for stats. Second is that you have too many feats according to your level you should not have that many feats. Third how are you able to cast spells in full plate? Even mithral plate would have a 25% arcane spell failure. If you are using normal full plate you should have a 35% chance of spell failure. Also are you taking the penalties for enlarge person? Remember they give you a -2 DEX, and -1 to hit.

It also looks like you are getting several rounds to prepare before each combat. Any GM who allows that to happen all the time is allowing you too much opportunity.

This character is really not that powerful. It seems like the problem is more than likely that the other players have weak characters.

We actually did use point buy. We did a 20 point buy. I got a +2 racial for being human, +1 for lvl4, +1 for lvl8, two +2 bonuses to Str DD and I have a Belt of Giant Str +2

My extra feats came from the Draconic Bloodline sorcerer ability. DD has some levels that stack with Sor to allow you to gain feats from your bloodline.

I usually don't cast spells in full plate, I make potions and drink them. A couple of times I did cast a spell but always rolled my spell failure. I wasted like 6 spells over the course of the game night.

I have been counting my enlarge penalties, I like to stay on top of that stuff.

AC 26 is not high for a lvl 9 character.

30 AC won't protect you from AoE abilities, most spell effects, or combat maneuvers. Many monsters at that level don't care much about 30 AC either...

Anyway, that's not what you are asking. The answer is just don't cast Shield (shield cannot be made into a potion) That 4 AC bump is really nice. Prepare other spells instead, true strike is first level and is verbal only.

Yeah, I don't have shield potions. I did manage to actually beast my spell failure and cast it once, but sort of regretted it. I'm sure my DM would let me switch out shield for something. Excellent suggestion.

That's a marginally capable beatstick. It doesn't look like he contributes a great deal outside of a fight, the damage will be half or less that of the magus if they bust out a decent spell, probably not terribly mobile, AC OK but not great at that level. 2nd level spells at 9th level isn't something to rely heavily on.

If you want him to be less capable wih a similar flavor ... Spend even more time buffing so that you miss most of the fight? Spend no time buffing so that they're less effective in a fight?

Outside of a fight I still feel he contributes quite a bit, but they may be because the others don't role play too much. It did take me a REALLY long time to climb up a couple of ruble barriers in our path.

I guess our old Magus just sucked. I think the most I ever saw him do was about 12 points of damage a strike with two strikes a round, but he never hit his second strike.

I don't really rely on spells much, they are more of there so he can make potions. He likes to be an Enlarged target and throw people around.

I do like your idea though, it is a very simple solution, just don't buff...I think I may worry to much. I spend a lot of time worrying wether the DM or the other players are having fun. If I think people aren't having fun because of my character it becomes a source of stress and worry for me. We all play for fun, I don't want to feel like I'm stealing fun from someone.

Another poster ( sorry for not quoting you ) does bring up an interesting g point though--in other games that I played in the characters would've been right there with me, each built around a focus and fulfilling their roles in spectacular fashion. The Rogue is awesome, but the others...I think they are new to role playing and don't understand a lot of basic things like buffing or party tactics. I'm not sure how to approach them about the build or application of their characters without seeming condescending or critical.

I think the easier solution would be to nerf myself in some way. Everyone here has been a big help and support so far, please keep the ideas and game perspectives coming.

Well, first off, how are you reliably casting spells in full plate? And how is this character more disruptive than a lvl9 barbarian?

Edit: nevermind, all my points were ninjad.

Ninja strike :)

What power level are the other characters, because Im not seeing anything that jumps out at me as overly strong, except maybe the stats, and I assume you got them the way all the other characters did; so maybe the other players might be interested in tips to make their characters stronger.

Well, honestly the Oracle doesn't do much. He casts bless, and heals, that is about it. Most of the time it is as if he isn't even there.

The Magus just changed to a Witch. The Magus never did much other but sort of poke at stuff with a spear, he almost never cast spells, when he did it wasn't a creative or a particularly good use of said spell. The Witch brought a whole new dynamic. He slumbered what he could and the Rogue and I just cut through helpless monsters like a weed eater. The monsters that didn't go to sleep wouldn't last a round with the Rogue and I on one together.

The Rogue has almost as much damage output as I do, but his AC is FAR lower. Though the Rogue and I were using advanced tactics to take things out. The Rogue is with it and plays a good Rogue.

Maybe I've DM'ed too much and am having problems switching out of the frame of mind, but I really worry about the other players feeling useless or out shined.

Still not seeing an issue here. Dragon Disciples are pretty far from broken, if anything they are considered poor. What is the issue here? Also you're in full plate, you still have an arcane spell failure.

Well, I used mostly potions. To buff myself as I brew potions on my down time, I also wasted at least 6 spells due to spell failure.

The problem is, monsters can't hit me. If my DM buffed the monsters to be a challenge for me they would murder the others.

I hate to use the word optimized, but I don't think the other characters are quite as built around a specific focus, which leaves a large gap between them and my character. Honestly the power difference is so noticeable ( at least to me ) that I feel a little guilty playing him.

DD may be considered low on the power scale, but in our game, he is a freaking monster. If it helps the other players an Oracle of Life Aasimar, Witch Tiefling, and Rogue Catfolk ( not sure what they are actually called ). We rolled over every single encounter.

So, I've joined a Pathfinder game that I really enjoy. It feels so nice to actually play in game instead of running one...but...I made a monster.

First; some background. I've been playing an running games for 16 years--mostly running. I'm not a power gamer and know how disruptive power gamers can sometimes be. So our party was getting our teeth kicked in every fight. We were surviving every fight just by the skin of our teeth, like 99% resource loss. Everyone in the party realized we needed a dedicated tank. Before I joined a couple of players left which left a Magus as a tank that wasn't built to tank and every fight was a brutal fight for our lives--multiple people dropping every fight.

So...I switched out and made a tank...I didn't consult the forums or anything to build him, I just read a lot of classes and feats and put a tank together. I made a freaking monster. I didn't realize how disruptive he would be until I played him today. The DM didn't enjoy the game and as a DM I recognize the need to nerf him. So, this is what I made:

1 sorcerer / 4 fighter / 4 dragon disciple

Human

Str: 22
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 11
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

Feats:
Brew Potion
Combat Reflexes
Familiar Bond
Furious Focus
Power Attack
Great Fortitude
Iron Will
Toughness
Weapon Focus Greataxe
Weapon Spec Greataxe

He uses full plate and thanks to spells and/or potions is able to enlarge himself to increase Str and cast Shield on himself. Tonight my AC was ( depending on current modifiers ) was 24, 26, and 30. With 26 being the norm.

I really like this character and have built and extensive background. I want to keep this character, but I also realize that in our game, compared to a couple of other characters ( at least) he is broken.

So I need help. How can I effectively nerf him while keeping him tanky and keeping his flavor. Please, help. Thank you in advance.

If I recall this point in the AP correctly Hemlock has gone to Magnimar to request aid and Shalelu has been asked to scout around to see what she can find. The PC's learn this information in their meeting with the Mayor. It would be easy to just not have Shalelu around because she is out doing what was requested of her (no need for letter from her), and the PC's have to go it alone.

Thanks so much for the suggestions! I really appreciate it! I am planning on wedging We Be Goblins, Too and Master of the Fallen Fortress into the story on the goblin side of things.

I really, really like the ideas about using them to soften up the fortress! I have no doubt that I will be implementing these.

Any other suggestions?

I will be running RotRL for a group of my friends. As many here have done I will starting the game with We Be Goblins! However, I plan on keeping the arc going long after the first session. I will be peppering in goblin game sessions for the length of the campaign. I would like the goblins to unwittingly aid the PC's before the final show down in some way though. Any ideas on this would be very helpful as I haven't gotten to finish reading the AP yet.

I'd like for events to unfold in a manner that the actions of the goblins has many direct influences on the main characters throughout the AP