How to mess with a player's Wish?


Advice

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Rynjin wrote:

^Reading HWalsh's post you can see why I exploded at you DiceBagChick (sorry about that).

That is the kind of thing that pops up with infuriating regularity around here when Wish comes up.

"How do I screw my player" is a thread that pops up as often (if not more so) as "Help me build my character", "This thing is overpowered (either because it really is or I don't understand it", "Caster-martial disparity" and "How do I make my paladin fall?" (a sub-set of the first).

Ryn, you are SUPPOSED to screw a player over who abuses the wish.

There are only a COUPLE of "safe" wishes, and that one isn't one of them.


Bestiary 2, page 161 wrote:
Originally invented and forged in the Outer Planes by the axiomites (see page 36), inevitables are living machines whose sole purpose is to seek out and destroy agents of chaos wherever they can . . . Today, many inevitables -- almost all of those encountered on the Material Plane -- pursue a new aspect of their originaly mission: tracking down those who flagrantly flout the forces of law and redeeming them (emphasis added) or, more often, eliminating the threat they present to the ordered nature of the multiverse.

So, Rynjin, while they were originally designed as you describe, I think that "redeeming them" leaves the inevitable plenty of room within rules as written to operate as I've suggested.


Mykull wrote:

Grant the spirit and intent of his Wish. Yes, literally give him exactly what he wants in the way that he wants it. Allow him to enjoy it . . . for a little while.

When he starts overusing it or abusing it, have an inevitable start to track down some of the left behind permanent items or effects and destroy them. The player should discover that they've been destroyed after the fact; he should not be present when it happens.

If he doesn't get the subtle hint, have the inevitable show up and say, "Primus, The One of Mechanus, has noticed an imbalance in the multiverse. YOU are the source of this imbalance. As a mortal, you are offered this admonition: Producing so many permanent effects so close together physically and temporally has a 'calcifying' effect in upper planes and higher dimensions that you cannot yet perceive. You are instructed to seriously curtail your use of your ability."

Do an image search for "Cease and Desist Form" and modify it to look appropriate for your campaign. Have the inevitable hand it to your player.

If the player still doesn't get the hint, have the inevitable return with a +6 Tome of Understanding. This one is a treatise on the space/time continuum in higher dimensions and across outer, inner, and material planes. Have the inevitable say, "You obviously do not understand the damage you are causing to the very fabric of existence. Primus, The One of Mechanus, orders you to READ THIS BOOK and apply its wisdom to your life and use of this ability. If you fail to comply, more permanent measures will be taken. This is your final warning."

If the player still doesn't take the obvious klaxon and rein himself in, send the inevitable to kill the character.

^This^ plus, for the people posting here, the OP said he drew from the harrow deck of many things, meaning it HAD to be the feathered serpent, which can EXPLICITLY go outside normal wish boundaries


HWalsh wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

^Reading HWalsh's post you can see why I exploded at you DiceBagChick (sorry about that).

That is the kind of thing that pops up with infuriating regularity around here when Wish comes up.

"How do I screw my player" is a thread that pops up as often (if not more so) as "Help me build my character", "This thing is overpowered (either because it really is or I don't understand it", "Caster-martial disparity" and "How do I make my paladin fall?" (a sub-set of the first).

Ryn, you are SUPPOSED to screw a player over who abuses the wish.

There are only a COUPLE of "safe" wishes, and that one isn't one of them.

Actually, since the Feathered Serpent is in play this IS a safe wish


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I would rule that as simply beyond the wish's power, and it would go *pfft* and be wasted.

If I were your player I would ask why on earth you even had me draw from the deck to begin with if you did that.

And ask if you would have *pfft* and wasted a negative result had I drawn it.

I wouldn't waste it but I'd be clear that it was way beyond the power of the spell and have them choose something that's within the power of the spell.


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HWalsh wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

^Reading HWalsh's post you can see why I exploded at you DiceBagChick (sorry about that).

That is the kind of thing that pops up with infuriating regularity around here when Wish comes up.

"How do I screw my player" is a thread that pops up as often (if not more so) as "Help me build my character", "This thing is overpowered (either because it really is or I don't understand it", "Caster-martial disparity" and "How do I make my paladin fall?" (a sub-set of the first).

Ryn, you are SUPPOSED to screw a player over who abuses the wish.

There are only a COUPLE of "safe" wishes, and that one isn't one of them.

1.) No, you're not SUPPOSED to dick over a player who goes outside the confines of a Wish. It MAY have unintended consequences, or be "partially fulfilled", but that's up to GM discretion, and a good GM does not screw a player like that. It's petty and serves no purpose, and is possibly detrimental to the game as a whole.

2.) This is a Wish from the Feathered Serpent card, which EXPLICITLY can have effects well beyond the normal power level of a Wish. "Like rerouting a river or ending a war" (that last one is a good example of how INSANELY powerful this version is).

Mykull wrote:
Bestiary 2, page 161 wrote:
Originally invented and forged in the Outer Planes by the axiomites (see page 36), inevitables are living machines whose sole purpose is to seek out and destroy agents of chaos wherever they can . . . Today, many inevitables -- almost all of those encountered on the Material Plane -- pursue a new aspect of their originaly mission: tracking down those who flagrantly flout the forces of law and redeeming them (emphasis added) or, more often, eliminating the threat they present to the ordered nature of the multiverse.
So, Rynjin, while they were originally designed as you describe, I think that "redeeming them" leaves the inevitable plenty of room within rules as written to operate as I've suggested.

Oh, that's cool.


Rynjin wrote:

^Reading HWalsh's post you can see why I exploded at you DiceBagChick (sorry about that).

That is the kind of thing that pops up with infuriating regularity around here when Wish comes up.

"How do I screw my player" is a thread that pops up as often (if not more so) as "Help me build my character", "This thing is overpowered (either because it really is or I don't understand it", "Caster-martial disparity" and "How do I make my paladin fall?" (a sub-set of the first).

Well, sorry. I dont really post here. I think this is only my second thread i've ever posted here about. I didnt know where else to ask for help.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I dont entirely appreciate words being put in my mouth that I never said. I never said I wanted to dick or screw over the player or anything else that has been said recently here.

With that, I am going to take my leave from this thread. Thank you all who gave alternatives to my original request! I appreciate that!


@dicebagchick I wish you the best of luck and will reiterate my thought. The at will permanency that replaces the previous one could end up being a very interesting dynamic.

The Exchange

"How to mess with a player's wish?" is the thread's title.
Mess with = "to bother or interfere with someone or something".
Screw over = "To treat someone unfairly; to bother someone; take advantage of someone".
They literally mean the same thing and you used one for the title of the thread. No one is putting words in anyone's mouth.


Fake Healer wrote:

"How to mess with a player's wish?" is the thread's title.

Mess with = "to bother or interfere with someone or something".
Screw over = "To treat someone unfairly; to bother someone; take advantage of someone".
They literally mean the same thing and you used one for the title of the thread. No one is putting words in anyone's mouth.

"Mess with" has a less harmful connotation.

Before we get deep into arguing over definitions of words, perhaps we address the original point again?

Sorry if this is a little hypocritical.


The title would make you think that DiceBagChick did indeed want to do what Rynjin thought. She later came on and clarified that she wanted advice on how to tone down an OP wish and was going to work with the PC to do so. She received several good ideas on how to do that.

She was also attacked to the point of leaving her own thread. I do not want to see folks driven away the boards and possible the hobby by those who feel a need to be hostile over the internet. In the future try and read the thread before responding with negativity.

To Rynjin's credit he realized his mistake and apologized.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Cavall wrote:
I'd make ever burning torches and sell them to large cites and make mint.
You mean like Continual Flame and Bloody Money?

Yes! But without any cost or limit by ability damage, or spells per day!

"I can outfit your city by this afternoon with 2000 torches. You'll be well lit by sunset. That will be 8000 gold. I'll come back in a month to see if you need more on my way to another city."


Hazrond wrote:
^This^ plus, for the people posting here, the OP said he drew from the harrow deck of many things, meaning it HAD to be the feathered serpent, which can EXPLICITLY go outside normal wish boundaries

Really? I didn't see that. The original post merely says it was drawn from a Deck of Many Things. The only people I saw mentioned the Harrow version were other people.


I mentioned it, and then she confirmed that it was the Feathered Serpent card. She mentioned early on she was using a variant Deck, but couldn't remember which.


Philo Pharynx wrote:

When I look at the list for permanency, there's nothing much that's hugely overpowered. Here's the list.

  • Arcane sight
  • Aura sight
  • Comprehend languages
  • Darkvision
  • Detect magic
  • Enlarge person
  • Magic fang
  • Magic fang, greater
  • Read magic
  • Reduce person
  • Resistance
  • See invisibility
  • Telepathic bond*
  • Tongues

I wouldn't have a problem having all of those spells permanently on. Enlarge person is the big one, and that comes with it's own penalties.

Also, one greater dispel needs to check against all spells up. If they have them permanently, the likely didn't memorize a backup version.

Sorted your list, and added bullet points.

Missed some:

  • Alarm
  • Alter River
  • Animate Objects
  • Anthropomorphic Animal
  • Arcane Sight, Greater
  • Cloud Of Seasickness
  • Corpse Lanterns
  • Create Demiplane
  • Create Demiplane, Greater
  • Create Demiplane, Lesser
  • Dancing Lantern
  • Dancing Lights
  • Ghost Sound
  • Gust Of Wind
  • Invisibility
  • Invisibility Alarm
  • Light
  • Loathsome Veil
  • Mage's Private Sanctum
  • Magic Mouth
  • Phase Door
  • Prismatic Sphere
  • Prismatic Wall
  • Sanctify Corpse
  • Shrink Item
  • Solid Fog
  • Stinking Cloud
  • Stolen Light
  • Symbol of Death
  • Symbol of Healing
  • Symbol Of Laughter
  • Symbol of Mirroring
  • Symbol of Revelation
  • Symbol of Scrying
  • Symbol of Slowing
  • Symbol of Strife
  • Symbol of Vulnerability
  • Teleport Trap
  • Teleportation Circle
  • Wall Of Fire
  • Wall Of Force
  • Wall Of Light
  • Web

I think the idea of the Permanency switching to the latest effect is the best way to mess with the way overpowered wish, while still giving something worthwhile.

/cevah


I would just add permanency to his list of learned spells and give him the feat, without gp cost, that lets him cast the spell, 3 levels higher, without any monetary cost.

When he can cast 8th level spells, he can cast this at will, as many times a day as he has 8th level spell slots, for his character's life and beyond(as a petitioner, then an outsider).

If he doesn't like that, you could give him his understanding of the wish, and epic level spellcasters will seek him out and make him their permanency casting slave. They fully intend to do this so it is by no means unintended.

Silver Crusade

I'm kinda bored with this, so I'm not going to read another page and a half of responses to see if this has been brought up, but to answer the people who are all "why are you even trying to mess up his wish?" Because it's right there in the text of the spell. If they step outside the "safe" uses of Wish, you do it at your peril.

As for how to do it, I like the "at Will" bit. Though, first I'd make him Wish in character, no metagame stuff. Then go from there.


Mykull wrote:

Grant the spirit and intent of his Wish. Yes, literally give him exactly what he wants in the way that he wants it. Allow him to enjoy it . . . for a little while.

When he starts overusing it or abusing it, have an inevitable start to track down some of the left behind permanent items or effects and destroy them. The player should discover that they've been destroyed after the fact; he should not be present when it happens.

If he doesn't get the subtle hint, have the inevitable show up and say, "Primus, The One of Mechanus, has noticed an imbalance in the multiverse. YOU are the source of this imbalance. As a mortal, you are offered this admonition: Producing so many permanent effects so close together physically and temporally has a 'calcifying' effect in upper planes and higher dimensions that you cannot yet perceive. You are instructed to seriously curtail your use of your ability."

Do an image search for "Cease and Desist Form" and modify it to look appropriate for your campaign. Have the inevitable hand it to your player.

If the player still doesn't get the hint, have the inevitable return with a +6 Tome of Understanding. This one is a treatise on the space/time continuum in higher dimensions and across outer, inner, and material planes. Have the inevitable say, "You obviously do not understand the damage you are causing to the very fabric of existence. Primus, The One of Mechanus, orders you to READ THIS BOOK and apply its wisdom to your life and use of this ability. If you fail to comply, more permanent measures will be taken. This is your final warning."

If the player still doesn't take the obvious klaxon and rein himself in, send the inevitable to kill the character.

Man, I wish I could make this happen now...


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Isonaroc wrote:

I'm kinda bored with this, so I'm not going to read another page and a half of responses to see if this has been brought up, but to answer the people who are all "why are you even trying to mess up his wish?" Because it's right there in the text of the spell. If they step outside the "safe" uses of Wish, you do it at your peril.

As for how to do it, I like the "at Will" bit. Though, first I'd make him Wish in character, no metagame stuff. Then go from there.

Next time read the thread.


HWalsh wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

^Reading HWalsh's post you can see why I exploded at you DiceBagChick (sorry about that).

That is the kind of thing that pops up with infuriating regularity around here when Wish comes up.

"How do I screw my player" is a thread that pops up as often (if not more so) as "Help me build my character", "This thing is overpowered (either because it really is or I don't understand it", "Caster-martial disparity" and "How do I make my paladin fall?" (a sub-set of the first).

Ryn, you are SUPPOSED to screw a player over who abuses the wish.

There are only a COUPLE of "safe" wishes, and that one isn't one of them.

Not nice to bait Rynjin, you know he can't help himself. :P

-

I like the idea of Inevitables showing up and giving someone a Tome of Knowledge, basically saying "You're too stupid, just read this and be better." Might be too much of a boost to some characters, but if they don't have any use for INT I suppose it wouldn't hurt too much.

Make sure to have a seal on it that signifies where it came from so it can't be sold or used by anyone else!

Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:
Next time read the thread.

No

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Goth Guru wrote:

I would just add permanency to his list of learned spells and give him the feat, without gp cost, that lets him cast the spell, 3 levels higher, without any monetary cost.

And this feat is what again?


Isonaroc wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Next time read the thread.
No

The reason Rynjin said "Next time read the thread." is the point you made above is actually addressed and it turns out your assumptions were incorrect. This leaves your statement looking pretty silly and reveals your ignorance of the conversation.

So, reading the thread would have helped prevent that.


LazarX wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:

I would just add permanency to his list of learned spells and give him the feat, without gp cost, that lets him cast the spell, 3 levels higher, without any monetary cost.

And this feat is what again?

My guess is that Goth Guru meant to use "a" instead "the".

Silver Crusade

Caedwyr wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Next time read the thread.
No

The reason Rynjin said "Next time read the thread." is the point you made above is actually addressed and it turns out your assumptions were incorrect. This leaves your statement looking pretty silly and reveals your ignorance of the conversation.

So, reading the thread would have helped prevent that.

No, the fact I said that I didn't read the conversation reveals my ignorance of the conversation. Try to keep up.


I would give them a wand of permanency.... normally that wish they made is beyond the scope of allowed and would be twisted but they did pull from the deck so should get something for it..... compromise for me would be wand.....anything beyond that is asking too much for the power of the spell

Shadow Lodge

This is how I adjudicate Wishes in my group:

PC is caster of wish: If it is within the spells pervue, the magic interprets his intent and he gets the most favourable possible result.
If the spell is granted by an inanimate object, the wish is intepreted as literally and neutrally as possible.
If it is an Evil caster (ifreets come to mind), then the wish is twisted in a way that has negative consequence to the caster but still follows the letter of the wish.
A Good caster will be largely the same as the PC excepting that it will refuse wishes that can have dangerous consequences.
The other thing I will do, is have the PC make an intelligence check to see how close the wish comes. because maybe the character is smarter than the player.


leo1925 wrote:

First of all don't mess with the player's wish, unless the wish comes from a Glabrezu (or similar source).

Secondly the no cost isn't needed because SLAs don't have material components.

Thirdly i suggest telling the player that you aren't comfortable with an at will permanency but you are prepared to give him permananency SLA once per day.

No kidding. It seems that lots of people are channeling the ghost of Gary Gygax.

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