can painful stare boost the damage of a magic missile?

[ohako]

question is pretty simple.

Occult Adventures wrote:

Painful Stare: When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist's hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist's class level (minimum 1).

The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn't his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists' painful stares in a round.

Say a 3rd level mesmerist is staring really hard at someone, and then sweet-talks a wand into shooting a single magic missile at the guy. Does this count as an attack, and thus the damage of the missile becomes 1d4+1d6+2?

[DM_Blake]

Magic Missile is not an attack if you define it by whether it has an attack roll or not. But it is an attack if you define it by whether it would break Invisibility.

So I suppose this might go either way, but I'm inclined toward the latter; it's more permissive. Besides, the Painful Stare says the attack needs to deal damage (Magic Missile does) but it doesn't state the attack needs an attack roll to qualify, so I wouldn't add restrictions that are not there.

[Imbicatus]

Using Painful Stare is a free action done by the Mesmerist. The damage of Painful Stare on a 3rd level Mesmerist is 1.5 rounded down to 1, plus 1d6 if the damage was caused by the mesmerist.

In your example, the Magic Missile does 1d4+1. If the Mesmerist is the one that fired the MM via the wand, Painful Stare will do 1d6+1 when it is triggered, for a total of 1d4+1 + 1d6+1.

[Dave Justus]

It says it is precision damage, which usually requires an attack roll. In addition, it triggers when an attack 'hits' not when damage happens, which also leans me to it requiring an attack roll.

I think the attack has to be one that requires an attack roll, but as DM_Blake correctly points out, there are two definitions of attack that would fit.

[Kazaan]

DM_Blake wrote:

Magic Missile is not an attack if you define it by whether it has an attack roll or not. But it is an attack if you define it by whether it would break Invisibility.

So I suppose this might go either way, but I'm inclined toward the latter; it's more permissive. Besides, the Painful Stare says the attack needs to deal damage (Magic Missile does) but it doesn't state the attack needs an attack roll to qualify, so I wouldn't add restrictions that are not there.

Attack is already unambiguously defined in Pathfinder; no one needs to make up their own definition for it. It only goes one way by RAW; any other way it might go is a houserule.

PRD/Magic wrote:

Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

I'm pretty confused how Painful Stare works now. Most of the FAQs are about Sneak Attack, with the one that specifically talks about Precision damage (and whether other types of precision damage are blocked by concealment) seeming to introduce a whole new rule (You can't activate Painful Stare on a target with concealment.)

Painful Stare wrote:

When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist's hypnotic stare,...

I'm a Sorc 1/ Mesmerist 4 with Manifold Stare.

I fire a Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents at the target of my Hypnotic Stare, and try to activate by Painful Stare twice.

How much damage do I deal?

2d4+2 from the Magic Missiles, surely.

+1d6+2 from Painful Stare, if "hits the target" doesn't imply an attack roll that hits. But that would also mean Burning Hands or Fireball couldn't activate Painful Stare. So I'm assuming "hits" there just means deals damage to.

Can I activate Painful Stare again for the second Magic Missile? (total: 2d4+2d6+6)
The Scorching Ray FAQ says you only apply Sneak Attack damage once per spell if the attacks are simultaneous. I don't see anything about precision damage in general though.

I was thinking of this as a fallback attack, but 18 average damage auto-hit at level 5 for one feat and 5k is pretty solid. And it scales some: another 2d6+2 at Mesmerist 6, another 2d6 at level 7 from Intense Pain. 2d4+8d6+12 at level 10/11 isn't horrible.

Same Scenario, but the target has Concealment.

I think this FAQ basically says concealment blocks Painful Stare. Even though the FAQ really seems to be talking about Sneak Attack Damage, Painful Stare doesn't say anything about it, and it doesn't seem like concealment would stop you from jolting someones pain centers.

[Grandlounge]

My mesmerist uses this or acid splash (two-world magic), deadly aim, painful stare to disrupt casters. While decreasing their saves and reducing their DCs.

It's a decent way to suppress a caster when you can't get spells to stick. Say an undead cleric. I would not call it super optimized but it works.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

I'm confident it works with Acid Splash, just not completely clear on how magic missile (especially multiple missiles) works. I started thinking along these lines after an Acid Splash (from my Sorc dip) I thought was just filling time crit a golem for 12 damage thanks to a 6 on Painful Stare, which is real damage at 4th.

I don't think you can Deadly Aim a Magic Missile though? I'm not sure if that's what you meant, or just Acid Splash.

[Grandlounge]

Deadly aim is just for acid splash. You are correct it does not apply to magic missle. The combo is also a good back up for sr.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

How are you applying Deadly Aim, which doesn't work with touch attacks, to Acid Splash?

[Y. Duskwalker]

Deadly aim works on "ranged attack rolls." A ranged "touch" attack roll is still a "ranged attack roll," it just happens to target touch ac instead of regular ac.

[Firebug]

Y. Duskwalker wrote:

Deadly aim works on "ranged attack rolls." A ranged "touch" attack roll is still a "ranged attack roll," it just happens to target touch ac instead of regular ac.

Did you miss the rest of Deadly Aim then?

Specifically: "The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."

[Plausible Pseudonym]

It explicitly doesn't work with touch attacks. Maybe you're using some pre-errata version. Guns have an exception, otherwise ranged touch attacks don't work with DA.

From the PRD:

Quote:

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

[graystone]

Dave Justus wrote:

In addition, it triggers when an attack 'hits' not when damage happens, which also leans me to it requiring an attack roll.

This is how it seems to me. It happens on the hit and not the attack or the damage [it just has to be able to cause damage].

ohako wrote:

Say a 3rd level mesmerist is staring really hard at someone, and then sweet-talks a wand into shooting a single magic missile at the guy. Does this count as an attack, and thus the damage of the missile becomes 1d4+1d6+2?

It's an attack but since it doesn't result in a hit, the damage is only 1d4+1.

[graystone]

Grandlounge wrote:

My mesmerist uses this or acid splash (two-world magic), deadly aim, painful stare to disrupt casters.

You need to pick Telekinetic Projectile if you want an attack cantrip to use with deadly aim. As a bonus you can use Alchemist's fire or Acid to bump up damage as most glass flasks don't survive the d6 damage the cantrip deals. ;)

[Grandlounge]

My bad missed that line thanks.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

It's a very common oversight.

[BackHandOfFate]

"Can Painful Stare boost the damage of a magic missile?"

Here's my two cents. Yes I think it can and here's why.

Unlike the precision damage of the rogue's sneak attack, Painful Stare is mind affecting. This in effect means that when a target is damaged, the extra damage from painful stare simulates the target believing a wound is more egregious than it actually was, thus translating into imagined physical trauma made real.

The ability doesn't actually require the mesmerist or anyone else to aim their attacks more precisely. Instead, the ability requires the following of the target:

1. It is not mindless or otherwise immune to mind affecting abilities.

2. It is not immune to critical hits

Whereas Sneak attack requires the target to be in some position of physical vulnerability (Flanked, Flat-footed, denied dex, etc), Painful stare requires the target to be in a position of MENTAL vulnerability (not immune to mind affecting). So I don't believe the two sources of precision damage should be held to the same standard.

[Caosbot]

I agree with BackHandOfFate.