I consider death a major failure, and if the same character dies twice, I seriously debate whether or not to bring it back.
It's a drain on cash, and if you keep dying then you clearly suck...
so yeah...
My group is running through Carrion Crown, and we've had 14 character deaths starting near the end of Book 3 and going to near the end of Book 5. In-game that's about two months.
In a party of six (plus a cohort) two characters have died 3 times each. Only one PC hasn't yet died. No one has been replaced with a different PC. The GM took pity on us and planted a staff of life in the treasure at one point, which saves a lot of 5,000gp diamonds. We still burn through a lot of diamond dust removing permanent negative levels.
The alternative to repeatedly bringing people back is of course bringing in a new character, but this is frequently a problem for groups that are heavy roleplayers: they're expected to shrug off the death of a comrade and accept the next handy wandering stranger as a bosom buddy. What, does he have "PC" tattooed on his forehead? Casual replacement of characters with new ones feels a but like a video game, or the old Paranoia RPG. "Dead? Ho hum, five more lives to go."
My group is running through Carrion Crown, and we've had 14 character deaths starting near the end of Book 3 and going to near the end of Book 5. In-game that's about two months.
In a party of six (plus a cohort) two characters have died 3 times each. Only one PC hasn't yet died. No one has been replaced with a different PC. The GM took pity on us and planted a staff of life in the treasure at one point, which saves a lot of 5,000gp diamonds. We still burn through a lot of diamond dust removing permanent negative levels.
The alternative to repeatedly bringing people back is of course bringing in a new character, but this is frequently a problem for groups that are heavy roleplayers: they're expected to shrug off the death of a comrade and accept the next handy wandering stranger as a bosom buddy. What, does he have "PC" tattooed on his forehead? Casual replacement of characters with new ones feels a but like a video game, or the old Paranoia RPG. "Dead? Ho hum, five more lives to go."
Dying that much isn't normal.
Wow, I've heard Carrion crown was a meatgrinder, but daaaaaaamn.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Deaths revolving door vs. instant friends with complete stranger!
There is no right answer, every one has a preference on how to deal with PC deaths. Its just a matter of finding the right one for your group.
My group has rarely had the opportunity where raise dead has been an issue. All our PC deaths have occurred at a level where raise dead is not really a valid option. So insta-buddy has pretty much been the only solution.
Deaths revolving door vs. instant friends with complete stranger!
There is no right answer, every one has a preference on how to deal with PC deaths. Its just a matter of finding the right one for your group.My group has rarely had the opportunity where raise dead has been an issue. All our PC deaths have occurred at a level where raise dead is not really a valid option. So insta-buddy has pretty much been the only solution.
We just hand-wave it.
Yup, new guy, suck it up.
If you're worried about the "revolving door afterlife", you could consider limiting supplies for resurrections.
The Resurrection spell requires a diamond worth 10 000gp to perform. Sure that's not a problem characters after a certain point, but why is that diamond worth 10 000gp? - because it's rare.
Imagine if every shop-keeper owned one, why would people shell out that much money for them? Sure they can bring people back from the dead, but if that's their only value, the church would likely have a stockpile, and they surely wouldn't charge their own clerics that much to bring someone back (it's helping their own church after all).
So the answer is to make resources scarce. If they want to bring someone back, they have to find a diamond. That's a whole side quest in itself. Maybe when they find one, it already belongs to someone else and the PC's have to do that person a favour (another quest?) to be allowed to take it?
Obviously this depends a lot on the campaign you're running/playing. If you have the time, you can make it less trivial by limiting resources. Two things to remember though, the player who's going to be resurrected has to have something to do (play a cohort or a guide or something?), and the players have to be having fun. Taking time out twice per adventure to do a side-quest just to get their characters back probably isn't fun, at that point it's probably worth scaling back the difficulty.
(sorry for rambling, it's just how I write =P )
You did not die in Kingmaker, but in RotRl, Jeremias.
I would hope to die only as often as maybe once every 8 levels or so.
Preferably less often.
If a character I play dies, it is on to the next one. Doesn't matter how much I liked it, or how fun it was, or how crappy the "luck" was (3 natural 1's in a row, where any of the three rolls would have saved me if I rolled a 2+), it is on to the next character (barring campaign plot requirements).
The other side of that is, I usually have 2-3 concepts swirling around at any time.
Each character is memorable and noteworthy in and of itself at that point. And as it is a table top RPG game, that is really the point (at least for me). When we reminisce about the character, it might be some epic adventure that we completed, or it might be laughs about the fact I spent 4 hours putting together a character, that lasted about 15 minutes of game time before dying to the most ridiculous string of bad rolls ever seen at the table. It is entertainment either way.
|
@Jeremias
The question depends a bit on the type of GM who leads the gameplay. The GM that likes grim and gritty will probably have a higher character death score in his campaign. Mind you, you can always give up on raising characters yourself. Having character raised more then 3 or 4 times seems already stretching the limits of reality. The answer in the end boils down to how much you wish to continue to play dead character and your group's play style.
Adam
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
So imagine this, death costs money, a large lump sum cost. What do we do in real life when large costs might show up unexpectedly? We buy Insurance! I imagine an order of clerics that sell life insurance at an affordable rate. When the insured dies, the order would send it's adventurers out to retrieve the body and cast Raise Dead.
The characters can be Insurance Agents!
The question is in the title... I am struggling with that question myself. As a DM I let the players do it as long as they pay for it, which can lead to interesting cases (e.g. the druid reincarnating as an Orc).
Hmm, there are several options:
* accept it like it is
* reduce difficulty
* increase their power by items
* speak with them how to reduce death amount
* reduce revive cost
* give them hero points
* let them take archetypes or custom feats for rebirth
* make death a more interesting experience (quests based on it, daemons going for your soul etc.)
So the answer is to make resources scarce. If they want to bring someone back, they have to find a diamond. That's a whole side quest in itself. Maybe when they find one, it already belongs to someone else and the PC's have to do that person a favour (another quest?) to be allowed to take it?
The problem with doing a side quest to resurrect someone is that the player who's character died has to sit around doing nothing. A quest like that is good for a book or movie but not a game. If everyone is not able to play and have fun, you're doing it wrong. No one should have to sit out for an extended period of time, whether its their own fault or the dice's.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Deadliest campaign I ever played was 3.0 Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil - 6 player group averaged 3 deaths per player (so 18 deaths). Two players never died (dwarves ftw), so those that did averaged 4-5 deaths each. We had one guy die 3 sessions in a row (mostly due to making supremely bad decisions).
In terms of APs, we've had a few, but not many. Bear in mind that my group is very experienced - everyone's been gaming at least 10 years, some more than 30:
Runelords AE: 1 death
Serpent's Skull: 1 death
Carrion Crown: 3 deaths
Skull & Shackles: 0 deaths(so far, in book 5 right now)
Huh. I guess looking at it this way Carrion Crown is pretty rough.
One of my players dies so often that he now takes Grave-Risen, the achievement feat, on the majority of his characters.
We're about to level up to 13th, and we're considering that feat. Four of our six PCs (and the cohort) qualify for it.
I just pitched our GM the idea that given some of our character backgrounds plus what we've experienced during the game, it might not be unreasonable for us to gain a single Mythic tier. He agreed, and our Pharasmin cleric opted for Mythic Spell Lore as her mythic feat. Her one Mythic spell is deathless, which should help a lot.
@Jeremias
The question depends a bit on the type of GM who leads the gameplay. The GM that likes grim and gritty will probably have a higher character death score in his campaign. Mind you, you can always give up on raising characters yourself. Having character raised more then 3 or 4 times seems already stretching the limits of reality. The answer in the end boils down to how much you wish to continue to play dead character and your group's play style.
Adam
So I am the GM and I don't know if I play very grim and gritty. Most encounters in RotRl are rather easy for the group (5 players, 25 point-buy). But this was the last fight in book 4 and supposed to be hard. Then the group had not rested once in a very long run of encounters. The BBEG had gathered enough intelligence to know that the gunslinger was a very dangerous opponent, so he was taken care of first.
Especially because his saves are good but not unbeatable.I guess the barbarian becomes more and more of a problem if I don't seriously change the written encounters. He has this perfect build you often see in the forums. Same Fort save as the tarrasque: +31 (all perfectly legal), Will save +21, around 230 HP and DR 6/- when raging... at level 12. (I know there are ways to counter that but I am a lazy GM).
It is now the third (or fourth?) death of Jeremias' character (two times in book four).
@Jeremias:
I can't help you with your decision. Just: If you like playing the character and your cronies want and bring you back (the will), you should not worry too much about the credibility of a fantasy world.
|
|
@Turgan
The "grim and gritty" part was merely an example. Every group's play style is okay as long as everyone is having fun time with it.
The situation that you describe is all too familiar to me. The problem in that situation is if all characters aren't on the same level of combat competence. If a Jeremias's char is mostly socially based and built character for example and barbarian is a combat machine, then you have a major problem in balancing it well and coupled with the fact that RoTR isn't designed against 25 pts-buy optimized characters... Well you get what I am trying to say, but that's a bit off-topic discussion, so I won't poke you too much.
I don't think I've ever brought a character back from the dead (as a player). I think if a character dies and would be brought back in our group it would be a quest worthy thing to center the campaign around as opposed to a simple spell being cast.
We don't die that often though. KO, sure, but we don't fully die.
Oh don't get me wrong - I think Jeremias' character is a very strong combatant. A few levels ago he was the one who caused me the headaches.
I really play RotRl as written, adding the advanced simple template and extra hp to most NPCs (players are aware of that).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain
with a bow
Forget about your sin - give the
audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance
anyhow.
So always look on the bright side
of death...
(Whistle)
a-Just before you draw your terminal breath...
(Whistle)
Life's a piece of sh*t, when you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
You'll see its all a show, keep 'em laughin' as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you
*************************************************************************** *********************
To answer the OP, "every time you die, of course."
*************************************************************************** *********************
To answer the OP more seriously, every game is different.
Some GMs like to create a fair encounter and then play it as hard/deadly as possible - if the encounter was fair to begin with, then it's not unfair to challenge the players with good tactics, or even deadly tactics, from the enemy. Especially if the PCs are high enough level to treat death as just a temporary condition that needs to be removed. I agree with these GMs as long as the encounter was fair (a decent but not overpowered encounter that the PCs should win, perhaps with a little difficulty but not more than they can handle).
Some players think that what I just said is unfair. They claim that a GM who plays the monsters "to win" is being a jerk. The phrase "dick move" gets used a lot. I agree with these players ONLY if the encounter was unfair to begin with.
Some GMs will never kill PCs. They don't want to hurt players' feelings by killing their characters. I agree with these GMs when it comes to GMs doing harsh/unfair/scripted stuff that kills PCs without any sense of fair play. I mostly agree with these GMs when it comes to fair encounters but the GMs dice are just super hot that day, or the players' dice are too cold (I prefer not to let dice drive major campaign events, including deaths). I disagree with these GMs when it comes to fair encounters that are simply handled badly by the PCs (they handle it badly, they better be ready to face the consequences, even PC death).
Some players never want their characters to die. I disagree with these players (and I do so even when I'm a player). It's not that I want my PC to die, but I do want difficult challenges with PC risk so that when I succeed, I know I earned it and can feel good about it. I don't want every victory to be a hollow victory because I know my GM let me win and/or saved me from any bad outcomes.
There are lots of GMs and players who disagree with all of these points, and lots who agree with some (or maybe even all), so that goes right back to my original (serious) answer: every group is different.
My personal vote is 'never'. Death should be an event, something that can inspire great roleplaying, not just 'Okay, drag Bob back to the cathedral'.
My personal vote is 'never'. Death should be an event, something that can inspire great roleplaying, not just 'Okay, drag Bob back to the cathedral'.
Except for the guy "roleplaying" the dead character. He doesn't get much roleplaying at all, great or otherwise.
|
|
From what I noticed, death is never a major event or inspiration for roleplaying. Most players just sadly accept it and move on. I'v also offered players to maybe play a character with disability instead of having him killed, kind of like avoiding death with disability, but none of them accepted the offer thus far. They just see nothing spectacular in death of a character.
I doubt that's gonna cut it as I did the same. I barely managed to keep up on lv18 with CR+5 templates and the party had 20 pts-buy.
Hm. You maybe right there. The higher they get, the more difficult it becomes to challenge them. Reminds me of the fight against Black Magga - they finished her long before she is supposed to quit the fight. In this case the players used really good tactics though and won with style (and none of them died).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is the disconnect between RPG games and fantasy stories/movies, etc. In a story, death is a tragic event, even if the story is a meatgrinder like Game of Thrones.
In a RPG game, it's possible to have a group finish the quest, yet be composed of totally different members than the ones that started the quest. That realization can be more anticlimactic than having resurrection available.
Resurrection does change things in a "Tippyverse" sort of way. Nobility would be more likely to face foes on a battlefield, and still live to old age due to resurrection magic. This also applies to wealthy opponents to the PC group.
In the end, what is more emersion breaking? Being brought back from the dead every other session, or accepting some stranger into your group without question every other session?
So I said I run it as written - that's not the whole truth. I put in some extra adventures and took out some of the most obvious hints to put some time in between the books.
Characters get older this way. There were some roleplaying encounters between our dwarven cleric of Abadar and Proctor Jyronn Imikar, gunslinger raising goblin babies with the help of the church in Sandpoint, a love interest of the gunslinger, a female officer in Magnimar who became aquainted to the group as she was quite aware of who burned down the Seven's Sawmill, after slaying a bunch of citizens with funny masks. This again led to the clearing of a bandit headquarter in the hinterlands...
Still I am almost in line with the level recommendations as some encounters of the book are ignored by a teleporting group. And the players don't get extra EXP for advanced simple template monsters.
|
|
I doubt that's gonna cut it as I did the same. I barely managed to keep up on lv18 with CR+5 templates and the party had 20 pts-buy.Hm. You maybe right there. The higher they get, the more difficult it becomes to challenge them. Reminds me of the fight against Black Magga - they finished her long before she is supposed to quit the fight. In this case the players used really good tactics though and won with style (and none of them died).
I am not sure what to say honestly since it's CR 15 monster. If it helps, use real-life tactics. They always helped me out a bunch. An ogre grabbing a civilian and threatening to kill him, an overwhelming number of foes, political dilemmas and such, characters committing anti-law acts, etc. But that kind of modifies the AP a lot and requires some thinking ahead. I was displeased with the AP in general at end, mostly with book 5 and 6. It simply couldn't match the challenges properly. At least, I learned a lot about high level gameplay though. It helped immensely to prevent the same problems happening in the next campaign.
This sometimes can add to the story if used right.
"I hacked the bullets from your body, Kung Fury."
The way my group is, we are all very attached to our characters. Like, "pages of backstory" attached. So when we die, we go the revolving-door style of death, but the GM keeps it from feeling cheep by changing the plot to reflect our failures. It works for us, but maybe we are weird!
I personally use a adventure that can (maybe) bring back the dead character. The player have a new character that support that quest. If the quest is succesfull player can use the old or the new character to move on. If it fails there is only that new character.
I personally think that resurrection should be very rare (or there is not dead in the world at all) that could lead very soon to owerpopulation problem...
The way my group is, we are all very attached to our characters. Like, "pages of backstory" attached. So when we die, we go the revolving-door style of death, but the GM keeps it from feeling cheep by changing the plot to reflect our failures. It works for us, but maybe we are weird!
Doesn't sound weird to me. Our group gets very invested in the characters as well. That's half the fun.
Dying that much isn't normal.My group is running through Carrion Crown, and we've had 14 character deaths starting near the end of Book 3 and going to near the end of Book 5. In-game that's about two months.
In a party of six (plus a cohort) two characters have died 3 times each. Only one PC hasn't yet died. No one has been replaced with a different PC. The GM took pity on us and planted a staff of life in the treasure at one point, which saves a lot of 5,000gp diamonds. We still burn through a lot of diamond dust removing permanent negative levels.
The alternative to repeatedly bringing people back is of course bringing in a new character, but this is frequently a problem for groups that are heavy roleplayers: they're expected to shrug off the death of a comrade and accept the next handy wandering stranger as a bosom buddy. What, does he have "PC" tattooed on his forehead? Casual replacement of characters with new ones feels a but like a video game, or the old Paranoia RPG. "Dead? Ho hum, five more lives to go."
Seems about right to me. Our group went through nearly three parties worth of characters by the time we beat Carrion Crown #3. We stopped the adventure path after that, because the revolving door of characters completely destroyed the storyline. The new characters had become too disconnected from the ongoing story arc for it to make any sense at all.
We have had several deaths in our S&S game, and I was one of two who had never died... Until recently. I wanted to carry on, but we merely 7th level and had limited resources. We did have a Druid though. In my entire gaming history I have been reincarnated twice, and twice have I been brought back as a dwarf. I had painted a pretty cool half elf mini too...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's nothing that says swapping out characters has to be a random encounter. Assuming the party wasn't born and raised together, the party members will have friends, relatives, former adventuring partners, etc. that could become new party members. And the odds are pretty good that any of these would show up at a funeral, too. Introduction and motivation ("I want to help you kill the bastard that killed my friend") in one scene. Assuming your party doesn't roleplay every waking moment of every day, you could even back-fill information for a suspicious party: "Oh, yeah, he told you stories about this guy (off camera/while you were traveling/etc.): you might not like him, but you know you can trust him."
If the player doesn't want his old character to have any relation to the old one, any other party member could be told, "You remember working with a guy several years back who would be a great replacement."
King sent you on a quest? Fine, bring back the dead body and ask for a new person to fill out the group. Deal with whomever the king sends you.
Think of it like replacing a co-worker at work. You don't just go down to the bar and hire the first person who seems interesting. You actively recruit people to fill that role, hitting up your network of contacts and asking them to recommend someone. Worst case scenario, you have a cattle call. (You can even have fun roleplaying the interviews, if your players are Mystery Men fans...)
My rule of thumb is "no more than one remarkable coincidence per story": you can make most seemingly random occurrences make perfect sense with a little bit of thought. "We need to hire a new guy to fill the role of the dead guy/guy who quit" is one of the easiest situations to work around.
It could assume that, but only if you want it to. These people do not exist anywhere until they story needs them. I'm sure there's a "Schrodinger's-Replacement-PC" anecdote somewhere in there. Some of your old old contacts may be travelling around as well - especially as you get to a higher level. They are going up in level too. You are right that PCs are rare and special, but so are many of the people that cross their paths. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a story.
I don't think my group has ever gotten someone raised. I've only had one of my characters die, IIRC, and that only happened because my character sacrificed himself to help break the team and others out of an evil prison. I feel it would most definitely have cheapened his sacrifice if he had been raised.