Rogue as a BBEG?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The only time I can think of a rogue being the BBEG of a module is basically one where he functioned as a spellcaster (as in, had a lot of scrolls and just burned through them like no tomorrow).


First off, serial theft probably bumps you to BBEG. Second, I'm not seeing how the Rogue contributes anything that any other class with a surplus of skill points and access to rogue talents doesn't. And that's basically only because I haven't looked at rogue talents in a while. If you can do them all with spells than just replace "rogue talents" with "spells". Again, Bard (Archaeologist) seems like it's Rogue+ here. Okay, so it seems like that everywhere, but definitely here.

I can make a sneaky BBEG (I'd probably start with a dark folk). I can make a social manipulator (Bard, maybe rakshasa Sorceror). I can make a thief (I'd probably start Ranger). I could also do all of them as a Rogue, but probably not all at once and I'd always feel like I could have done more.

As for tacking Rogue levels onto a monster, it's the same problem as the pocket spellcaster. Are the Rogue levels what matter or is the monster where the power comes from? The Lamia Matriarch mentioned probably could have taken 8 fighter levels and power attack instead and done about the same amount of damage, with more health.


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Before getting down to the final battle, it's easy to handle a rogue as a BBEG.

Rogues have cash; hire goons. Easy.

Rogues are sneaky, especially with the help of thieved (or even purchased) magical equipment; toy with the party under the cover of night.

Get inventive and in-their-heads; I had a rogue as a sub-BBEG once. He noticed (as he stalked the party frequently) that they had a bad habit of shooting first and asking questions later. He hired a few local children to put on dark cloaks and run away from the party as fast as they could as soon as they came into view. A shiny gold coin apiece.

The party (and the town) had a hard time dealing with the fact that they had slaughtered an innocent group of children, who did not have enough HP as level 1 commoners to survive the 1d8+3 or so damage dealt on average by a party with composite bows or the like. Victory, of a kind, for certain.

The final battle would be the roughest part. In my above-cited instance, my rogue hired a trio a little more capable in close combat than himself, and attempted to murder the party's stragglers from cover while they dealt with that threat. Or for a different flavor, in his penultimate engagement with them he was safely encased in a heavy dwarven mining implement (functionally, a tank) and did his darnedest to mow down the party before they could pry him out of it and spank him for his crimes.

Liberty's Edge

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While there are several possible ways to make a Rogue the BBEG, I'd probably go with the sniper design. Stealthy Sniper talent, Sniper Goggles, Hide in Plain Sight, any kind of vision obstruction that the rogue can see through, et cetera.

It is entirely possible to make a Rogue who can snipe and disappear over and over and over again without ever being in danger. Give him a few 'get away' abilities (e.g. dimension door into various properties he owns around the city) in case the party does manage to spot him and you'll have an enemy that can terrorize the party almost with impunity. Forcing them to find places to hide and plan some way to lure him into a trap.


I don't think anyone's mentioned having an opposing player take the role of the Rogue. Give them some prep time (say a year of game time), PC level wealth, access to a liberal set of feats including Leadership, and the Downtime rules from Ultimate Campaign. If this player is slightly munchkinish and spreadsheet-savvy this could be good. You might need specific house rules for hiring higher-level minions.

95% of the time the party and the BBEG/BBNG are apart, so the Rogue player could play-by-post or have separate sessions. Any minion interaction with the party could be managed by a set of standing orders, or specific orders like "rob them in their sleep".

This absolves the DM of most "that's not fair!" accusations - any underhanded actions were carried out by a smart opponent with a spy network, not by a fickle and omniscient DM. If they leave obvious weaknesses in their tactics that the Rogue exposes (and exploits) by talking to spies then it's their fault.


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Like any BBEG, it's a question of WHY he needs to be stopped. What is he doing that makes him so dangerous?

It really doesn't matter if he's a Rogue or Fighter or Wizard.

Has he stolen the head of Mimir? Idun's apples? The Golden Fleece?

Has he stolen the holy artifact that was keeping [insert BBE Outsider here] from entering this world?

Is he seeking to bring down the gods? Overthrow a righteous king?

I have an easier time conceptually with a Mastermind archetype than a Core Rogue, but the story arc would pretty much be the same: He wants Power, and he'll use anyone and anything to get it. The PCs are pawns - as far as the BBEG (or BBNG as DM_Blake suggests) is concerned. And once the PCs catch on, that's when things get interesting! Will they hinder him or ingratiate themselves with him? Thwart him, or seek revenge, or try to wrest his Power away from him?

Sovereign Court

Rathendar wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
These ideas might even work better if we take the "E" out of his title. A rogue who happens to be a BBNG (Big Bad Neutral Guy) might even be able to work with the PCs, hire them from time to time, appear to just be a wealthy noble or businessman, even helpful, all the while he's scheming and plotting - maybe he doesn't even know about the awful demons he's going to unleash; he might just think he's going to be fabulously rich.
A lovely suggestion to dodge the 'smiting' and detect problem. Also a nice twist.

Potions of Undetectable Alignment (alchemist 2, antipaladin 2, bard 1, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2, and ironically, paladin 2) are very cheap and last for 24 hours. I think people often forget about those during plot design. Alignment should never be a factor really, and it's also a reason why the Vigilante dual alignment thing is wonky from the get go... it's achieved by a 1st or 2nd level spell really.

Sovereign Court

lemeres wrote:
Well, the resources that an evil rogue would have- networks, goons, and a lot of money (which can buy all sorts of black market gear).

Traps. Traps. More traps.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Well, the resources that an evil rogue would have- networks, goons, and a lot of money (which can buy all sorts of black market gear).
Traps. Traps. More traps.

Misdirection; Sleight of Hand; Feinting. - (both physically and metaphorically)

Sovereign Court

Aelryinth wrote:

Dust of Dispelling [...]

Which book has this Aelryinth?

Sovereign Court

DM_Blake wrote:
These ideas might even work better if we take the "E" out of his title. A rogue who happens to be a BBNG (Big Bad Neutral Guy) might even be able to work with the PCs, hire them from time to time, appear to just be a wealthy noble or businessman, even helpful, all the while he's scheming and plotting - maybe he doesn't even know about the awful demons he's going to unleash; he might just think he's going to be fabulously rich.

Even with the 'e' - he could easily be 'the lesser of two evils' or 'the devil you know'. (metaphorically - not a literal devil)

Basically - think Marcone from The Dresden Files. He's definitely evil, but he helps the hero against many people/things which are far more evil than he is. He even has an odd sense of honor. (definitely LE - not lawful in that he follows the law, but lawful in that he has a code - most notably that he never allows kids to be hurt)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Dust of Dispelling [...]

Which book has this Aelryinth?

Dust of Dispelling is from the old TOme of Madness book from WoTC, the book on Aberrations - one of the best books they put out.

Basically, it is dust made from beholder central eyes. SPrinkle it out, voila, 10'r antimagic shell.
Perfect for trapping an area by dusting it from above and then introducing sneak attackers on both sides to slice up casters.

==Aelryinth


The Tiefling has racial option 67 as well, why take two feats to get it?

SRD wrote:
Your eyes glow fiendishly and you possess the see in darkness ability as if you were a devil.


Sangerine wrote:

The Tiefling has racial option 67 as well, why take two feats to get it?

SRD wrote:
Your eyes glow fiendishly and you possess the see in darkness ability as if you were a devil.

Racial Heritage (Tiefling) + Fiendish Heritage (Whatever you want)?


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one on one
mano a mano
just you
me
and MYYYYY GUARRRRRRRRRRRRDS


a few immediate thoughts:

1) a level 20 rogue should, I think, by that point have stolen some truly epic things - I would definitely consider giving him some unique items with history - and likely if running this as an AP I would have the rogue's thefts building up over the course of the AP (likely initially at least as incidental news seemingly unrelated to the matters the party is dealing with at that level) probably including some artifacts or similar items (which may be somewhat co-BBEGs

2) by level 20 we're talking beyond the scale of a single world in most cases. For a level 20 rogue I would have someone who is literally stealing from the gods (or demons). I would also be tempted to have a somewhat unexpected BBEG in this case - possibly NOT an evil BBEG at all. One of my favorite PC's ever (many many editions ago) was a True Neutral rogue (like) character - who at high levels helped and hindered gods of many different alignments. I would be tempted to have the BBEG be a True Neutral rogue - who didn't follow any laws or hold much with any allegiances (good or evil; law or chaos) and likely would have her (I'm thinking a woman for some reason but even that could be mysterious by these levels) steal and act against seeming all sides on an epic scale.

This means that early on the BBEG could legitimately be an ally (either directly or more likely of sponsors of the party) and her actions over the course of the AP could at times seem even something the party might support though eventually they may realize that her eventual goals might result in something that the party can't agree with (though the players may have serious challenges) - for example perhaps she is stealing not just stuff but say the essence of gods (but perhaps equally from good/evil law/chaos). I might even design the AP such that the "resolution" doesn't have to be the party kills the BBEG - it may equally be they support the BBEG in her final goal (this would require having a nearly equal threat which either they defeat with the BBEG or which they prevent in some manner by defeating the BBEG herself.

3) I would almost certainly use the Unchained Rogue - between level 20 skill unlocks and other abilities I think it would make for a more challenging BBEG. And I would give her some very serious resources indeed - networks of allies that literally spanned planes and perhaps some very unique items (with her possessions including allies all likely having been stolen, co-opted or otherwise taken - and if I did the Neutral BBEG she would have taken her resources from all "sides" - which might in part be expressed by her choices of allies that might include not just other Neutrals but creatures who may have initially been good or evil (but whom may have been swayed around to her point of view)

(and yes if I went full bore on this - i.e. traditionally "good" and "evil" creatures as her allies who have had changed alignments to neutral this would perhaps needlessly punish players who wanted to play a Paladin or other class that prefers enemies of a specific alignment.)

For skill unlocks - stealth is the no brainer (20 ranks would mean a character who could snipe easily or could stealth effectively in combat and then dish out massive amounts of sneak attacks even without a flanking partner). Combine with environmental advantages or allies helping create the conditions...

(the skill unlock for Craft at level 20 would imply the ability to create magic traps with craft traps since doing so requires create wondrous item - which I might give but not sure, there may be better skill unlocks) Bluff would be a good over over time as it would help make the BBEG harder to pin down. Diplomacy and a few others might be nifty as well.

(most likely for the level 5 BBEG I would give Stealth, then Bluff, then Diplomacy (or flip that order) then Craft:traps as a capstone at level 20 and use that to include traps in the BBEG's defenses. But there may be some other options that would be better in keeping with the story.

For a BBEG rogue I would probably build her as a skill monkey of sorts so relatively good INT, high CHA, ok WIS and then good physical stats (so at least a Heroic stat array and for a BBEG I might include inherent bonuses - I might also suggest a couple different arrays based on the relative stats of the party - i.e. a party with heroic stats might face a BBEG with closer to a 25pt buy or higher.


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Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.

Most (probably all) of the mentioned tactics that would make him an actual threat (picking the time and location of the encounter, setting ambushes and traps, fighting dirty, hiring goons, etc) are not limited to any class and Rogues aren't particularly good at any of that)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I don't think he's saying that the ROgue is best...it's that could the ROgue do the job?

Yes, he could.

=Aelryinth


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Lemmy wrote:
Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.
Aelryinth wrote:

I don't think he's saying that the ROgue is best...it's that could the ROgue do the job?

Yes, he could.

=Aelryinth

Any class with social skills could do the same. It's been bugging me how almost all of the suggestions that aren't about the final boss fight could be done by an Expert or an Aristocrat. It's a really weird way to approach designing a BBEG. There is no real reason why a rogue is being used other than some desire to be "novel". Consequently, all the advice is a mess because the ultimate goal is vaguely shaped like the stock scheming man-behind-the-scenes BBEG...but they are a rogue (who isn't particularly suited to that sort of character). Consequently, the BBEG character doesn't really have any...character. Unless some things are included that are distinctively roguish, or even just distinctive full stop, the BBEG is just going to feel to the players like a guy with piles of money and a lot of contacts.

I would seriously advise forgetting the character's stat sheet should look like and decide what the details of the character concept are first. Then pick the best class for it. Or just pick Rogue because you want to, but don't be surprised when you get a subpar BBEG because you didn't pick the mechanics that fit the concept best.

Sovereign Court

Actually - if you go by PFS Unchained ruling - U-rogues are the only ones with Skill Unlocks. Several of them are rather mean once you get 20 ranks.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Make him the King of Thieves.


(Replying to Mysterious Stranger)

You can free up a bunch of talents (and I think some feats) by remembering to apply the unchained rogue's skill unlocks. Skill unlock (stealth) gives him a great deal of benefits as do a bunch of other feats.


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A few thoughts:

1 - Rogues shine out of combat
Explore this aspect of your BBEG by using his ability modifiers to set up a series of non-combat encounters (not necessarily traps) that change the conditions where the party finally meets him. Make sure that the final showdown with him gives plenty of options for stealth and traps.

If you are using a charismatic rogue, have him leave false leads to the party which cause them to encounter the BBEG at a place of his choosing, likely riddled with traps and great hiding spots. This could be a series of gather information checks from the party with DC equal to 10 + the BBEG's bluff check.

Also, flanking partners are incredibly useful for a melee type rogue, so a series of social encounters pitting the party's knowledge and charisma against the BBEG's recruitment abilities could be used to modify the number and level of goons he has managed to bring in.

Careful planning and knowledge of tactics can easily mean the difference between an epic showdown and a anticlimactic disintegrate ray. Consider using social encounters that result in the BBEG learning about the party's tactics so he can prepare against them. Knowing that the wizard has an arcane bond makes it a prime target for a disarm or steal combat maneuver.

2 - Rogues are rich. NPCs aren't.
You may want to consider his wealth distribution. Heroic NPC wealth for a level 20 character is 159k, whereas PC wealth at that level is 880k. I would consider designing him such that his personal wealth on hand (armor, weapons, potions, etc) is 159k, and you use the 721k difference between PC and NPC (heroic) as a pool of money to pay for traps, hiring goons, and additional equipment for goons beyond their normal loadout. This should make it easier to balance the encounter from a CR perspective (include traps and goons in the CR calculations), but keep the flavor of a wealthy rogue intact.

3 - Daggers don't kill, sneak attacks do
It's not too hard to make a rogue build that can blender a PC in the first round of combat (or the surprise round even) with a full attack that includes so many d6s of sneak attack that it makes a Warhammer 40k game look tame. That would not likely be a fun encounter for the PCs though. What may be more fun is to use rogue talents such as Sneaky Maneuvers to perform a full attack of disarm and steal checks before promptly dropping through a prepared trapdoor to a lower level or being teleported by one of his hired goons. This could lead to an incredibly awkward combat on the part of the PCs that could prove to be very memorable.

4 - Rogues can fall flat... spectacularly
Reward the party if they excel in prior social encounters. If the party catches wind that the BBEG is studying their tactics, hiring goons, and rigging the battlefield, and they can find a way to turn the tables, make sure they feel that all of the events leading up to the final showdown are all part of the BBEG. That way when he falls flat on his face from being caught too early, and tries to steal the arcane bond from the wrong guy thanks to a well done disguise, and is promptly abandoned by his goons who are more confident in the party than their boss, rather then feeling that the 1 round combat is anticlimactic, the party will see it as a rewarding culmination of all of their hard work.


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Rycaut wrote:

(Replying to Mysterious Stranger)

You can free up a bunch of talents (and I think some feats) by remembering to apply the unchained rogue's skill unlocks. Skill unlock (stealth) gives him a great deal of benefits as do a bunch of other feats.

If you look he already has skill unlocks in bluff, disguise, perception, sense motive, sleight of hand, and stealth.

Bluff gives him the ability to evade people reading his thoughts, detecting his alignment, or being caught lying. It also gives him the ability to use suggestion almost at will.

Disguise allows him to create a disguise as a full round action. Combined with bluff he can be in a crowd and blend in almost at will.

Perception is going to make it almost impossible to surprise. He will notice things while asleep from several football fields away that most people standing next to the person will miss.

Sense motive means he can read thoughts as a standard action. Notice they get no save vs. this just an opposed bluff roll.

Stealth with the feat hellcat stealth means he can disappear right before your very eyes. This will allow him to get sneak attacks very easily.

The feats and talents are designed to allow him to actually make the rolls for some of the skill unlocks. Sense motive has to be extremely high because he is taking a -20 on it. Stealth is also high to overcome some really high perception rolls.

The character can probably be optimized further, but the idea is to show it is possible to make him a threat.

DM_Blake makes a good point that he should have even more wealth than a PC. This is going to make him even more dangerous. Give him a powerful artifact as well. With a high enough use magic device it could even be an artifact that is normally only used by a wizard. Maybe a staff of the Magi?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Snowblind wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.
Aelryinth wrote:

I don't think he's saying that the ROgue is best...it's that could the ROgue do the job?

Yes, he could.

=Aelryinth

Any class with social skills could do the same. It's been bugging me how almost all of the suggestions that aren't about the final boss fight could be done by an Expert or an Aristocrat. It's a really weird way to approach designing a BBEG. There is no real reason why a rogue is being used other than some desire to be "novel". Consequently, all the advice is a mess because the ultimate goal is vaguely shaped like the stock scheming man-behind-the-scenes BBEG...but they are a rogue (who isn't particularly suited to that sort of character). Consequently, the BBEG character doesn't really have any...character. Unless some things are included that are distinctively roguish, or even just distinctive full stop, the BBEG is just going to feel to the players like a guy with piles of money and a lot of contacts.

I would seriously advise forgetting the character's stat sheet should look like and decide what the details of the character concept are first. Then pick the best class for it. Or just pick Rogue because you want to, but don't be surprised when you get a subpar BBEG because you didn't pick the mechanics that fit the concept best.

Experts and artisocrats do not have combat skills. Rogues do.

But the arena Rogues will shine in requires them to remove magic from the equation, forcing the party to 'merely human' levels. Sneak attack is HUGELY dangerous if the other party does not have magical defenses and Con buffs.

And you know, it's exactly what a Commoner, Aritocrat or Noble would want to happen. I can totally see, for instance, the entire Senate building being in an anti-magic shell, JUST to stop caster shenanigans. Military bases and strongpoints, the homes of important people, etc. Magic is dangerous stuff, and keeping out the powers of casters and magical beings is what people would WANT TO DO.

The Rogue would THRIVE in such circumstances. But you'd have to make the world back up the reality of what people would want, instead of something like Golarion.

==Aelryinth


My advice wasn't something that a stock Expert or Aristocrat could do - what I'm envisioning is a BBEG that starts a bit higher level than the players (likely considerably early on so they don't accidentally attack him) and who over the course of the campaign is gathering items (and perhaps literally allies and resources) by stealing / persuading / conning them. If it was my campaign she would take both items (likely pieces of an artifact that she assembles over the course of the campaign - initially without the players knowing much about it, eventually by being a few steps ahead of the players who may be trying to prevent her getting the final pieces) and she would be a neutral enemy who was taking from and opposing seemingly all sides (good & evil forces, lawful and chaotic forces) - at the highest levels literally stealing from (and to a degree for) the gods. Mechanically I would represent this by her allies being both "good" and "evil" intelligent creatures - likely converted to Neutral by her persuasion and working towards goals that the players likely wouldn't understand.

I would also be open to the players having many ways to resolve the entire campaign - they could be a traditional party of "good" heroes - or they could be a party of "evil" anti-heroes (or even a mixed party brought together eventually by a shared common foe) and the players could choose to ally themselves with the BBEG in the end if she persuades them of the strength of her goals (which might be literally stealing from the gods themselves - likely to diminish the power of both good and evil.

The rogue abilities would come from:

- super stealth (the BBEG herself would be capable of epic stealth sneaking into places and stealing or killing or kidnapping seemingly at will - represented mechanically by skill unlock stealth + feats like greater steal + unchained rogue debilitating strike + sneak attack

- ability to persuade seemingly anyone + craft the story she wants told (skill unlock bluff and diplomacy + related rogue talents

- at least PC level wealth but likely well beyond it - but much of it used for other ends, her equipment at various parts of the AP would be level appropriate but at least PC wealth level + the unique artifacts if I used that (she wouldn't just be getting them but would be using them as well - though they might actually be a secondary BBEG in their own right if as I would likely say they artifact(s) were also intelligent

- rogue ability to get out of seemingly any danger (improved evasion + related rogue talents for survival)

I might use human with the alternative trait that gives three skill focuses but I would also want to have the right feats for her to be a strong threat even without stealth. I would also look at some non-human races especially ones that are longlived as that would allow her to have been making plans and gathering resources and allies for a considerable time w/o the physical implications of age.

I do think the unchained rogue does this better than the original Pathfinder core rogue - as skill unlocks especially the level 20 ones really open up abilities for a BBEG (skill unlock stealth in particular is very very strong for a rogue and the related skill unlock craft (traps) is nifty as she could make even magical traps herself.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Rycaut wrote:

(Replying to Mysterious Stranger)

You can free up a bunch of talents (and I think some feats) by remembering to apply the unchained rogue's skill unlocks. Skill unlock (stealth) gives him a great deal of benefits as do a bunch of other feats.

If you look he already has skill unlocks in bluff, disguise, perception, sense motive, sleight of hand, and stealth.

Bluff gives him the ability to evade people reading his thoughts, detecting his alignment, or being caught lying. It also gives him the ability to use suggestion almost at will.

Disguise allows him to create a disguise as a full round action. Combined with bluff he can be in a crowd and blend in almost at will.

Perception is going to make it almost impossible to surprise. He will notice things while asleep from several football fields away that most people standing next to the person will miss.

Sense motive means he can read thoughts as a standard action. Notice they get no save vs. this just an opposed bluff roll.

Stealth with the feat hellcat stealth means he can disappear right before your very eyes. This will allow him to get sneak attacks very easily.

The feats and talents are designed to allow him to actually make the rolls for some of the skill unlocks. Sense motive has to be extremely high because he is taking a -20 on it. Stealth is also high to overcome some really high perception rolls.

The character can probably be optimized further, but the idea is to show it is possible to make him a threat.

DM_Blake makes a good point that he should have even more wealth than a PC. This is going to make him even more dangerous. Give him a powerful artifact as well. With a high enough use magic device it could even be an artifact that is normally only used by a wizard. Maybe a staff of the Magi?

I don't see those anywhere on what you posted - I see the cutting edge but didn't see the other skills listed anywhere. Are you sure they were in the formatted output you posted?

also a small side note - for an unchained rogue you now have to spend an advanced talent to get improved evasion - for a BBEG I would definitely do that


The man-behind-the-scenes IS an effective BBEG. Just look at Prof. Moriarty as one example.


Rycaut wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Rycaut wrote:

(Replying to Mysterious Stranger)

You can free up a bunch of talents (and I think some feats) by remembering to apply the unchained rogue's skill unlocks. Skill unlock (stealth) gives him a great deal of benefits as do a bunch of other feats.

If you look he already has skill unlocks in bluff, disguise, perception, sense motive, sleight of hand, and stealth.

Bluff gives him the ability to evade people reading his thoughts, detecting his alignment, or being caught lying. It also gives him the ability to use suggestion almost at will.

Disguise allows him to create a disguise as a full round action. Combined with bluff he can be in a crowd and blend in almost at will.

Perception is going to make it almost impossible to surprise. He will notice things while asleep from several football fields away that most people standing next to the person will miss.

Sense motive means he can read thoughts as a standard action. Notice they get no save vs. this just an opposed bluff roll.

Stealth with the feat hellcat stealth means he can disappear right before your very eyes. This will allow him to get sneak attacks very easily.

The feats and talents are designed to allow him to actually make the rolls for some of the skill unlocks. Sense motive has to be extremely high because he is taking a -20 on it. Stealth is also high to overcome some really high perception rolls.

The character can probably be optimized further, but the idea is to show it is possible to make him a threat.

DM_Blake makes a good point that he should have even more wealth than a PC. This is going to make him even more dangerous. Give him a powerful artifact as well. With a high enough use magic device it could even be an artifact that is normally only used by a wizard. Maybe a staff of the Magi?

I don't see those anywhere on what you posted - I see the cutting edge but didn't see the other skills listed anywhere. Are you sure they were...

You are right they did not show up. I put together the character quickly and just posted the output without checking it. Sorry for the confusion.

the skill unlocks are what make him stand out. Most of the skill locks can be used an unlimited number of times per day. Being able to read almost any surface thought and make suggestions to most NPC an unlimited number of times per day is something even a full caster is going to be hard pressed to match. The fact he can do so in a antimagic field is even more impressive.


Otherwhere wrote:
The man-behind-the-scenes IS an effective BBEG. Just look at Prof. Moriarty as one example.

Yes, but I doubt this is about his role throughout the campaign, this is about what happens when the party tries to drag him from behind the scenes and onto center stage. What happens when they get behind his veils of secrecy, subterfuge, escapes, and political defenses.

Essentially, with a man behind the scenes, you are supposed to either reveal his role (there by incriminating him and removing him from power/getting him arrested) or you are waiting until you can get him into arms reach so that you can rearrange his Charisma score into the negatives via plastic surgery performed with a greatsword.

And lets admit it, while we can appreciate the first storywise...the game makes us really appreciate the latter in the cathartic feel of a d20 to his face. And admittedly, you could have the latter immediately after the former (ie, he uses his last lines of defense to kill you since no one is going to take him alive)


Lemmy wrote:
Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class...

Yep, my post was pretty far out there. Using Loki as a minion. I musta been in an altered state of consciousness...

Or...

Maybe this rogue has been level 20 for a hundred years. Or more. The rules don't really cover what happens then. Mythic tiers? Epic Level Handbook? Oh, yeah, not that one; it's obsolete.

So what DOES a level 20 rogue do for a century or two AFTER hitting level 20? I don't think there ARE any rules for this, so there is nothing for the OP to "follow". Once he's been 20th level for a few dozen decades, he must have achieved SOMETHING with all those skills and abilities and connections and all that time on his hands.

Oh, and even a human rogue could have been level 20 for hundreds of years. Why, less than 20 years ago, Potions of Longevity were in the core books - maybe he stockpiled a bunch of them before they all disappeared (maybe this BBNG rogue is the reason they all disappeared - hmmmmmmm).

Lemmy wrote:
There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.

Hence the after-twenty RP fluff stuff. Yeah, those other classes could do that too, but they don't all need to; many of them could start their world conquest at or even before the instant they hit level 20. Not so much the rogue.


lemeres wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
The man-behind-the-scenes IS an effective BBEG. Just look at Prof. Moriarty as one example.

Yes, but I doubt this is about his role throughout the campaign, this is about what happens when the party tries to drag him from behind the scenes and onto center stage. What happens when they get behind his veils of secrecy, subterfuge, escapes, and political defenses.

Essentially, with a man behind the scenes, you are supposed to either reveal his role (there by incriminating him and removing him from power/getting him arrested) or you are waiting until you can get him into arms reach so that you can rearrange his Charisma score into the negatives via plastic surgery performed with a greatsword.

And lets admit it, while we can appreciate the first storywise...the game makes us really appreciate the latter in the cathartic feel of a d20 to his face. And admittedly, you could have the latter immediately after the former (ie, he uses his last lines of defense to kill you since no one is going to take him alive)

Well, even Holmes had his face-to-face with Prof. Moriarty, and it didn't turn out so well for him. So a Moriarty-esque villain can still be a viable threat in the final chapter!

Honestly, I'm not really clear what Malwing is looking for out of this thread. This was just what occurred to me based on a more Rogue type villain. You've got your mafioso. You've got your underworld Boss. I just happen to enjoy the Holmes/Moriarty thing.

Sovereign Court

DM_Blake wrote:
So what DOES a level 20 rogue do for a century or two AFTER hitting level 20? I don't think there ARE any rules for this, so there is nothing for the OP to "follow". Once he's been 20th level for a few dozen decades, he must have achieved SOMETHING with all those skills and abilities and connections and all that time on his hands.

Ever heard of the grandfather of the assassins? he's actually... a ROGUE! [gasp!]

:P

Also, not that it's rogue specific, well kinda (i.e. Godfather anyone?) but the success of a high level rogue is to seer a lot of kids. LOTS. Until such point where you have family everywhere and can legitimize your operations. Who cares about magic when you have the unions working for you? :)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ever heard of the grandfather of the assassins? he's actually... a ROGUE! [gasp!]

Which came first, the chicken rogue or the egg assassin?


DM_Blake wrote:
Maybe this rogue has been level 20 for a hundred years. Or more. The rules don't really cover what happens then. Mythic tiers? Epic Level Handbook? Oh, yeah, not that one; it's obsolete.

They do, actually... Since level isn't tied to time. The short answer is that he wouldn't be 20th level anymore.

Your character level isn't just some number that tells you what feats you can have. It's meant to be a reflection of your experience, power, skill set, etc.

Unless this Rogue didn't learn anything new in the last 100 years, he should probably have gained a level or two (maybe he got really lazy after getting so rich and powerful and decided he didn't want to do much work anymore, so he couldn't gather enough xp to level up).


Lemmy wrote:
Unless this Rogue didn't learn anything new in the least 100 years, he should probably have gained a level or 2

So he's now a level 22 rogue? Is there a chart for this? What class abilities does he get? Did his BAB and Saves go up?

And why only 1 or 2 levels. Chances are it only took him a year or two to reach level 20. If he was slow about it, maybe a decade. Then he's had many, many more decades to keep "adventuring", so why only a couple levels? Couldn't he be a 75th level rogue by now? Is that on the chart?

Snark aside, I quoted you saying "Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class..." and then I suggested that after level 20, there's nothing BUT fiat. It seems you agree, since you're suggesting making up new levels for him.


DM_Blake wrote:
So he's now a level 22 rogue? Is there a chart for this? What class abilities does he get? Did his BAB and Saves go up?

I suppose it could work that way... Or you could simply say that he reached 18th level 100 years or so in the past, and spent the last century reaching 20th level...

If you really want to get him to 20th level, I'd increase whatever bonuses he would get following the progression of the Rogue class (sneak attack, rogue talent, trap finding, whatever), poor BAB progression and good progression to all saves startin g at 21st level (so in this case, +1 to BAB and all saves).

It's still simpler to say he got to 20th level in the last century, though...


this isn't even my final form


Prestige classing into Assassin? Maybe Master Spy? Multiclassing into Vivisectionist Alchemist?

Sovereign Court

Man that rogue 20 capstone ability is nice.... forget multicasting! :)

Edit: unchained rogue uses Dex instead of Int to set the DC..... :)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Man that rogue 20 capstone ability is nice.... forget multicasting! :)

Edit: unchained rogue uses Dex instead of Int to set the DC..... :)

This is all after 20th.


A few other ideas - you could combine unchained rogue with an archetype to create some really unique BBEG's. Though many Rogue archetypes don't really have a lot of impact on high levels - there are a few that could create a really unique BBEG.

"Underground Chemist" would give you a BBEG that at level 20 could be a living mummy with 50 points of spontaneous healing a day and likely some other unique abilities. Skill unlock for craft (alchemy) would be in character and at 20 ranks would mean she could create potions herself and "enhance potions" would mean those potions would function at CL 20 (and if desired "extend potions" would double the duration on top of that. Might even be able to combine with another archetype for even more fun

Kobolds have a nifty archetype that offers ranger traps and limited sneak attack damage but greatly enhanced traps - a level 20 kobold unchained rogue with that archetype might be really nasty - and very unexpected as a BBEG (if I did this not sure if I would or would not make the race of the BBEG well known - but if I did feature a level 20 kobold as the BBEG it makes a lot of allies etc fall into place fairly easily - at lower levels, low level tribes of kobolds. At higher levels kobolds with class levels and more advanced traps etc, and by level 20 likely some dragon allies and many other allies etc.

There may be some other rogue archetypes that would have an impact - though most are really front loaded to the lower levels of rogue (but for a BBEG replacing trap sense and / or trap finding wouldn't really "cost" much so archetypes like knife master are also worth looking at.


Why can't a wizard have a network of evil goons and wealth from stealing things

Note: wizard bbeg have networks of evil goons and are rich, often from stealing


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After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.

Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?


CWheezy wrote:

Why can't a wizard have a network of evil goons and wealth from stealing things

Note: wizard bbeg have networks of evil goons and are rich, often from stealing

Because there are several avenues that a wizard can take, so they might not use that particular one.

They could, for instance, build a lair entirely out of their own power, and fill it with bound creatures and the like.

They can play it as "I CAN BEND THE VERY FABRIC OF REALITY TO MY WHIM! I CAN NEVER BE DEFEATED BY THE LIKES OF MERE MEN"...and thn he gets a greatsword to the face, cause it is the classic overconfidence story.

Even as a man behind the scenes, he might use various enchantment spells to bind people of political power to his will (if he doesn't bully some shape shifter to replace the person entirely).

A thief HAS to play with subversive methods. They are all about backstabbings, ganging up on a person, and other underhanded methods. A wizard CAN be just as submersive, but he doesn't HAVE to be. And that often translates to a larger willingness to take the problem into his own hands, even when he is trying to play it sneaky.

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Judecca Bishop wrote:

After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.

Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?

well done sir. I like this


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Judecca Bishop wrote:

After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.

Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?

well done sir. I like this

Well, obviously that would happen at least once. But then it wouldn't be a final encounter, since if he gets off then he is going to continue whatever master plan he has cooking.

No, the real challenge there is that he tries his best to make a double, and that was never him. He also obtained a recording device. He wants the players to kill him, because then he turns that over to the proper authorities (ie- the ones that are in his back pocket) to show that they executed a prisoner without trial, thereby incriminating the party.

Of course, if he is 'taken in', then he just lays low so the party feels it won, while he is really doing other things. Maybe set up fake attempts at jail break which purposefully fail.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The fact a mage 'can' play like a Rogue is no reason to not play a rogue like a rogue.

The big thing is going to be the prevalence of anti-magic. ThE rogue thrives in no magic environments. So make sure you address that point. It doesn't mean that magic is illegal, or even fewer spellcasters around. It means that anti-magic defenses will quite reasonably be EVERYWHERE, and the players should be prepared for it. Casters are going to be shut down the way that melee and ranged attackers are, and frequently. If they don't have alternatives...sucks to be them!

Here is how you do it:

Citywide defenses against flight that is not 'natural': Prevents flyovers by magical creatures and wizards and bombing the city.

Citywide ward against charms: Charmed people glow pink, instantly betraying the fact their will has been subverted.

Magic glows at entry points: A physical reaction, so guards can see magic coming into and out of places. Stops a lot of smuggling, and people girt head to toe in magic are noted with alertness.

Citywide Interdiction against dimensional magic: This prevents gating, teleporting, summoning, dimension dooring, mage's mansions, bags of holding and suchlike. Stops many invasion plans, unregulated travel, a great deal of easy smuggling, and bringing in foul monsters to terrorize innocents, while making strategic and tactical control of positions of importance in the city still important. It also keeps property values pointedly high and current.

Anti-Magic Shells in important areas to politicians/rulership/command: Completely shuts down ANY magical threat from most magical sources in those areas.

Undead glow black: Faerie fire coats all undead in black flames. Can't have them hiding among the living!

True Sight Seekers: The city regularly has a special secret corps that walks the streets with True Sight, looking for disguised and shapechanged beings trying to infiltrate society. Keeps the dopplegangers in check. This is combined with Urban Rangers with FE: Human and FT: Urban, who are experts in determining that things are NOT Human (or whatever the native/dominant race required is), and fighting and tracking such, effectively a double specialization of alertness.

"White Zones": Set up in Spell Engine areas. All spellcasting from beings is sucked away and neutralized, including spell like and supernatural abilities. Devices can still be used, however, and buffs in existence are not dispelled. Typically used to cover areas of commerce and industry. Wands are often back-up weapons here.

"Duty statues": City guards entering shifts pay respects to these statues of patrons of the city, and get a Greater Magic weapon and Greater Magic Vestment cast on them that lasts ten hours, long enough to cover their shift, and give them a significant magical bump.

Divination protection: Cheap and plentiful. A standard Non-Detection Amulet works as if the wearer were the caster, making it MUCH harder to bypass. Wards against divination magic will be present on most wealthier homes and on any place of political importance. This will be extended to illusion magic for places of worth, making infiltration even harder.

Laws against casting: Spellcasting is the same as any other deadly weapon, the caster is held responsible for deaths and property destruction caused by any magic they wield, up to and including raising the dead by stiff fees and penalties, surrender of magic items, geased service, etc. Those who abuse magical powers can be expected to be petrified with a variant that ages them as they stay in stone, stored away for years, and then released with major chunks of their life gone, or simply out and out killed if unable to control their dangerous powers. There might be a ceremony or Ritual to completely strip people of magical ability for punishing people abusing magic.

You have to set up the world like this, where people want protection from what they cannot control. If they can't have magic, they don't want to be threatened by magic, and will do what they can/have to to make sure of it. This is NOT a mindset that Paizo reflects, and frankly ignores. An Anti-Magic Zone is the magical equivalent of "I check my gun at the door" and should be the default for any zone that you want any level of security in.

In such an environment, there's no way a wizard is going to compare to what a Rogue can do. Away from the cities where security is enforced, a spellcaster can possibly do whatever he can get away with. But in the city, the ROgue will rule.

==Aelryinth


" wrote:

Well, obviously that would happen at least once. But then it wouldn't be a final encounter, since if he gets off then he is going to continue whatever master plan he has cooking.

No, the real challenge there is that he tries his best to make a double, and that was never him. He also obtained a recording device. He wants the players to kill him, because then he turns that over to the proper authorities (ie- the ones that are in his back pocket) to show that they executed a prisoner without trial, thereby incriminating the party.

Of course, if he is 'taken in', then he just lays low so the party feels it won, while he is really doing other things. Maybe set up fake attempts at jail break which purposefully fail.

My intent was on figuring out how to deal with a criminal of great stature who has been legally absolved of all responsibility and gives no means to be hunted again.

Alternatively, I suppose, a clever rogue could both get himself off the hook and get the party incriminated. Make it look as if he's been framed by this group of murderous, pillaging lunatics that have scoured the countryside to thwart him for unknown reasons. In my experience, the average PC group is questionable enough in actions that a court of law wouldn't find this unreasonable. It also maintains the rogue's status as BBEG, but again dodges a combat finale in favor of a "how do we get ourselves out of this one?" sort.


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The key is climax, but the climax a rogue would engineer, which is likely never to be "I'll fight them."

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