Rogue as a BBEG?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I had a fun thought that I wanted to discuss.

We all know of evil wizards as boss villains. Sometimes clerics that are prophets of mad gods are the BBEG. If we want to push it, a Fighter can be behind a huge army that is the main villain.

But what about Rogues?

I'm always planning something for future campaigns or small adventures. One of them is about an escaped criminal that topples a kingdom and escapes to the world's largest (and most corrupt) city where the party must stop him before he uses the crown jewels for a forgotten ritual that summons The Devil's Horde, the lost treasure of the king of thieves, either to get the treasure for themselves or keep the powerful artifacts inside away from the escaped criminal's hands.

So... How would you handle a Rogue BBEG? I didn't post this in the suggestions subforum because I'm interested in that broad question rather than seeking an answer. I already know how I'm going to handle it. I want to hear from you guys on how the Rogue can possibly be a BBEG to begin with. The Rogue is generally considered the weakest class in the game. Not only can it not do much in combat but so many classes do what could exclusively be it's job with or without magic. Even it's own alternate class makes it a joke, and we already have problems imagining a Fighter as a BBEG.

So here's a thought experiment: Conceptually, mechanically or logically how does a Rogue become a Final Boss?

And when I say 'Rogue' I mean 20 levels of Rogue. Not Ninja or any other alternate class or even dipping. Just a lvl 20 Rogue who is the terror you need to stop before he does something. How would he threaten a party, how would he threaten a kingdom, how would he threaten the world? How can he be scary and viable?


I would handle it by picking a real class :D. Nah, but me being an nonconstructive jerk aside, a buttload of templates so he's actually a threat. Advanced, maybe half-fiend, something with a bunch of anti magic abilities (not sure what it would be in particular) oh and some super OP artifacts. If you mean without Templates and Artifacts theeeeen you SOL cause he will be annihilated within seconds of meeting the party unless he's, like, 10 levels higher then them, and still I have my doubts. Maybe some mythic ranks? but that's the best I got

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd write him like the villian in Unbreakable.


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Been there, done it. Wouldn't recommend it.

Rogue was pulling a lot of strings behind the scenes using a vast network of Noble, underground, and black market connections to make things happen...

Let me put this into a more common perspective.

Imagine a group of adventurers going through Westeros and unraveling conspiracy after conspiracy. Thwarting a couple before they've been hatched, but most others they're doing damage control on. It all eventually points in the same direction.

So the PC's track down Littlefinger, stab him, and he's dead. That's it. That's the encounter.

That isn't the end of the story, because now everyone is upset with the party because they either thought that Littlefinger was some upstanding, noble, whatever or they knew he was a scumbag but counted on his scumbaggery.

In other words, it's not a great resolution to a high level campaign. The climax is crap and the denouement is everyone being an ingrate about the whole thing. Makes an excellent mid-campaign minion for a proper BBEG (cause then they've got this information from Littlefinger that points towards something more concrete, satisfying, and sinister), but it's not particularly satisfying as the BBEG himself.

Or they players don't kill him and instead try to politically destroy him, blah blah blah, long story short: There's a reason most of us aren't just playing Vampire instead. If you've got a group that is into that stuff, really genuinely into it, and will remain invested in it rather than becoming terribly bored, then go for it, but that isn't exactly a 1:1 match with the Pathfinder demographic and chances are that you'll have at least one bored/restless/unhappy player at the table.

That last sentence is a train wreck.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The BBEG isn't just the end boss, it's the organisation built around them.

It doesn't matter how you build a BBEG, whether rogue, fighter, or Archmage, by himself a solo BBEG is meat for for the party's chopping block.

It's the minions and lieutenants that matter as well as the stronghold. Whereas a BBEG Wizard might fill his lair with conjured beings, a BBEG Rogue will fill his lair with deadly traps and misdirection. Build the whole package right and any BBEG no matter the class will be one to remember.

Strategies for BBEGs will have a lot of simmilarities, classes mainly determine the flavor of execution.


How would you build a house out of cantaloupes? I dunno, I would just recommend not doing it.

Maybe as a Little Bad Evil Guy, if your campaign has lots of small arcs to it, then sure, but I don't see any reasonable way a rogue could evade capture and murderation past like, level 7.


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Even a crappy rogue can be a solo BBEG for an entire party of PCs - as long as he is significantly higher level than the PCs. Say, that 20th level rogue being a BBEG for a level 12 party.

Even an amazing wizard is NOT a good solo BBEG for an entire party of PCs - when the PCs levels are close to the BBEG. Say, even a 20th level wizard will be an easy encounter for a level 20 party (assuming that party has their own wizard or similar classes).

So if you want the party to fight your rogue BBEG, keep the above in mind.

Out of combat, EVERY KIND of BBEG should challenge the party by using traps, minions, misdirection, hidden lairs, and vast wealth to always buy and have the necessary information, people, and items at their disposal. It's what BBEGs do.

There is very little functional difference between a BBEG wizard and a BBEG rogue. The wizard will use some more magical trickiness while the rogue will use more organizational trickiness, but it will amount to much the same thing because the wizard would rely on organizations and the rogue would purchase access to magic so it all crosses over to being about the same.


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How about the BBEG Rogue doesn't wait to be confronted in his throne room, but rather sneaks in his enemies' camp and slits their sleeping throats?


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Astral Wanderer wrote:
How about the BBEG Rogue doesn't wait to be confronted in his throne room, but rather sneaks in his enemies' camp and slits their sleeping throats?

Careful now. You probably just stirred up the hornet's nest of people who will accuse you of being unfair, only out to screw your players.

(Probably some of the same players who would have no problem with stealthing into a NPC's camp to slit the NPC's sleeping throat).

Shadow Lodge

ChainsawSam wrote:
Been there, done it. Wouldn't recommend it.

The question was 'how' not 'should'.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

if i had a Rogue as the Big Bad:
Conceptually:
The Rogue would have a network of informants that sometimes would mislead the PCs other times they'd indirectly oppose them, he'd be charismatic and smart with a gift of knowing what people are thinking before they even open their mouths, he'd be pleasant to be around the PCs might even meet him while on disguise opportunities he'd use to get to know the PCs a little better, he'd probably have seduced a powerful ally into helping him

Mechanically:
The Rogue would have a party of his own (one single NPC makes for a lousy encounter) probably a bard an illusionist wizard and maybe a big brute the Rogue could manipulate

Logically:
powerful magic, maybe a legendary pair of daggers or a powerful artifact that compliments his martial prowess the rest its up tho his own allays that i'd design to compliment him


To be clear, by BBEG I mean that the campaign gets resolved if this guy is dead. He is the source of the primary problem that needs to be resolved even if the players are not initially aware of the problem. But for the sake of this question the party is aware of the Rogue's existence and that he is evil, even if they don't know where he is or exactly what he looks like.

While the Rogue is entitled to GM tools like templates, I would say that mythic tiers and artifacts would be used sparingly or downplayed. This is a guy who is high level but otherwise normal to some extent. Giving him a template that gives him 9th level spells defeats the purpose of the discussion. Third party is fine but none that rewrite the Rogue.

Also assume that the Rogue is a lvl 20 Rogue that just got out of prison and as nothing, meaning that everything he has is gained with his own power, whether its by his class features, theft, coercion or whatever else a Rogue can do.

Also I want to discourage discussion how it cant be done unless you are bringing up the discussion of obstacles a BBEG must face to be a successful BBEG and opening it up to how he can overcome those obstacles. This isn't a 'Rogues suck' thread, we already know that. This is also not a 'Lets fix Rogues' thread, the core assumption is that the Rogue is as it exists now.

Sovereign Court

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For a U-Rogue - it's not that different from any other martial BBEG except that he even moreso shouldn't just stand in a room by himself waiting for the party.

I'd have him take lessons from some of the nastier kobold guides and have his lair be a warren of hidden passages/magical mist(which he can see through)/traps/illusionary walls(which he knows of and can therefore see through) etc. Also - have plenty of the traps be targeted Greater Dispel Magic spells - and have his whole lair be set so that it can't be teleported into/out of. (no escape!)

He could have Major Magic to get True Strike 10 times per day to deal with concealment and make him a master sniper (first shot at +20, then their AC is dropped by 8 for the iteratives) & a Ring of Blinking to allow him to use Moonlight Stalker Feint all the time (nasty high level rogue combo) and to simply blink through walls to do hit & run even better.

He might even try to split the party, especially splitting away the healers so that he can wear down other party members with poisons/status effects etc.

With Skill Unlock & 20 ranks in Bluff, he can use Bluff as Suggestion. Or have him get Dazzling Display along with the Intimidate Skill Unlock & an Intimidate build. Suddenly the whole group is cowering for 1d4 rounds & has to make a Will save or be panicked thereafter.

(With 20 ranks - several Skill Unlocks become awesome.)


Malwing wrote:
Also assume that the Rogue is a lvl 20 Rogue that just got out of prison and as nothing, meaning that everything he has is gained with his own power, whether its by his class features, theft, coercion or whatever else a Rogue can do.

A level 20 rogue has a lot of contacts, knowledge and tricks at hand. The lost equipment was just one tool and can be regained. He knows many people in the region and how to treat them to gain an advantage - advantages like knowledge, goods, favors. He knows how to trick them into working for him while thinking they do it for their own benefit (which might not be exclusive). He is smart - not as smart as the wizard, but he is way better with people and opportunities.

Of course he is not the master of direct combat - a charging rogue is a stupid rogue is a dead rogue (generalizing a bit). Rather expect him to make the king outlaw you, pay you for a mission that turns out to be suicide or even join your party in disguise, murdering one and laying the blame on someone else.

EDIT: And if it's about the final fight, be sure he will have favorable terrain, allies, traps and magical tricks.


If we're talking about how to turn a single Rogue into a viable combat threat then always consider consumables. S/He only needs to be a badass for a couple of fights, and likely will have lots of warning before the PCs finally kick in the door (spy networks and the like). Chugging a potion of any and every hour/level and 10min/level buff can make a difference. It also means that when/if the PCs beat them they don't get a gamebreaking ton of high-end magic gear.

Consider lots of cheap-but-good mundane or low-end magic gear like Spring-Loaded Wrist Sheaths to get the most from your action economy and to defeat common party tactics. Have a look at various threads on these boards for ideas. Snapleaves or Feather Tokens are also good. Any time you looked at an item and thought "that's situationally really useful" then consider having one and the exact setup situation in the lair.

Go Unchained Rogue and use all the advantages that brings. Stick Debilitating Injuries on the party's melee. Abuse 2-handed 1.5x Dex to damage & Power Attack combos. Maybe even think about Variant Multiclassing - Wizard and Witch offer familiars and lots of fringe goodies.

Most importantly remember that a good Rogue is never a meatshield. That's what they have lackeys and minions for. Whenever they fight the party should be outnumbered and the BBEG should have at least one planned escape route. Have a minion acting as decoy to misdirect them. Lure them into Tucker's Kobolds-style ambushes. Use traps to split the party and fight smaller groups. Use minions to provide flanks to set up Sneak Attacks, or hired casters to Glitterdust/Blind them. Do not fight fair.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You could design it like an AP - Against the Thieves' Guild, with each book centered around destroying one of the guild's lairs.

Throw every possible thief thing at them as they try to find, scout, infiltrate, storm and destroy each guild lair. Every conceivable trap there is, including self-destructing lairs with bolt-holes for the lieutenants.

Most of all you will have to steal things from your PCs! I don't know of anything that PO's players more than having some NPC steal their things and then use their own stuff against them!

Contributor

Have the party fight him in an antimagic area; for extra drama, have the party find out that he will be in an antimagic area a bit earlier in the adventure, so they can prepare.

I wrote the final encounter for the Verbobonc region's Living Greyhawk campaign, and the final boss was a fighter. Just a fighter, no templates or other classes. I made the party fight him in antimagic, but based on favors they PCs had collected from previous adventures, they could each use a single magic item, spell slot, or similar in the fight. So although the PCs were mostly shut down, magically-speaking, they could make some judicial decisions about the upcoming fight.

This would work equally well with a rogue, I think, although having several methods for the rogue to ensure sneak attack (by flanking buddies, environmental effects, and so on) would be vital to making the rogue a serious threat.


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If I were to do this, I'd run the rogue like Keyser Soze from the Usual SSuspects. He's not an amazing fighter or anything. His skill all lies in no one knowing who he really is and being afraid of him because of how mysterious he and his organization is.

Whenever the PCs finally think they got him, all they get are their friends and family murdered because the real BBEG is still alive and well and in hiding again.


Well, you'd need to be of severely higher level than the group. That said, improved two-weapon feint lets you sneak attack everything. Stick him in an antimagic field, and you just might have something there.


1. Rogues work best in tandem with a party, partner, etc., esp. a flanking buddy (possibly feats/class abilities to make flanking easier to do).

2. How about a bit of Mythic champion to the rogue for added oomph?


Quote:
But for the sake of this question the party is aware of the Rogue's existence and that he is evil, even if they don't know where he is or exactly what he looks like.

Right, so this only works up to fairly low party levels, since a few basic divination spells will make this statement no longer true, and he has no way to defend against them.

If there is some high level wizard helping him to avoid divination, then all you've done is basically have a wizard BBEG with a rogue puppet. Otherwise, I'm not sure how this could possibly hold up into even mid level.

Quote:
Stick him in an antimagic field, and you just might have something there.

Like this, for example = wizard who the AMF is centered on is now just effectively the ACTUAL BBEG.


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I probably wouldn't have the Rogue personally do much of the fighting at all. He would use his non-combat skills to gain and amass power, and the actual final battles would be against all of his minions/traps/etc instead of just the Rogue himself.

For plot, I would go with a level 20 Rogue (Spy) who focuses on Bluff and Disguise and takes talents and feats with that in mind, who assassinates a king and takes his place without anyone noticing. The king received constant mind blank protection from the royal court wizard, because that seems like the sort of precaution you would want to take for a ruling monarch, so the Rogue is protected from divination in his role by virtue of who he replaced. The Rogue then stacks up bluff and disguise up to DCs in the low 60's, ensuring that effectively nothing can determine who he is, and since he doesn't have any magic to shut off or relies on any spells that could be pierced by true seeing, he can pull it off well. Add in Hide in Plain Sight, and the Rogue has a backup plan of stealthing out if he finally gets pinned down.

Like the stronger casters, the Rogue's plan is to solve all his problems without fighting, because why fight a party of adventurers when you can incite the populace against them/frame them/convince other people to fight them instead?

EDIT: I would actually probably do Rogue(Spy) 10/Master Spy 10, which directly addresses the divination issue without actually losing a lot of Roguey flavor, but the OP asked for a straight Rogue, so I built a plan around that.


To further clarify some things:

The Rogue does not necessarily have to challenge the party in combat until the equivalent of the end of book 6 of an adventure path. He needs not do this alone but needs to be capable of controlling his cohorts (by their own volition or by force) or at the very least be able to confidently know he won't be betrayed and bested in some way or another. As I said above, if he is dead the adventure is over as the problem is now resolved.


You can.always use Jarlaxle from Forgotten Realms as inspiration. He is a high level rogue BBEG lol


I just had a nasty idea that might well work against a mid-level party, depending on the characters and the level of preparedness.

Using environmental conditions such as darkness is often enforced in a lax way. At low-to-mid levels a non-optimizer player may not have good options to counter them, especially if it is normally handwaved or ignored. If some/all of the party lack darkvision they're really vulnerable to sneak attacks in darkness.

You could take this a step further:

Your BBEG is a level 7-8 Tiefling Rogue. The party is similar level. Have either a cohort or magic item capable of casting Deeper Darkness. Take the Fiend Sight feat twice to get See in Darkness. Once the party are in the room (smaller than the area of effect of Deeper Darkness) the doors lock. If they don't have an appropriate counter then they're screwed.

This is very realistically a TPK for an inexperienced or unprepared party. Veteran gamers will have something like a coin with heightened Continual Flame on it for this sort of thing, but many people won't.

Sovereign Court

Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
But for the sake of this question the party is aware of the Rogue's existence and that he is evil, even if they don't know where he is or exactly what he looks like.

Right, so this only works up to fairly low party levels, since a few basic divination spells will make this statement no longer true, and he has no way to defend against them.

Actually - with the Bluff skill unlock - they can't tell that he's evil or read his thoughts. And other divination against someone you only know rumors about etc. can be tricky at best.

Sczarni

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Give him the Thug archetype, and have him max out Intimidate. Bludgeoner feat, high STR, and a greatclub or dire flail.

Then give him the ki pool and invisible blade ninja tricks. Max ranks in Stealth helps, as does a Cape of the Mountebank.

The PCs are infiltrating his lair, finding the various traps, henchmen, and what-have-you, when suddenly one of them takes 1d10+10d6+whatever damage... and is frightened for X rounds. Nobody sees what caused this.

The party wizard attempts a Spellcraft or Know(arcana) check? Fail. The cleric channels positive energy to defeat the "haunt"? Fail. Trap sense? Nope. Will saves through the roof? Nope. Next thing you know, the party is either retreated back to the tavern (giving the BBEG time to reset the traps) or is scattered to the four winds throughout the hideout and doesn't know what they're fighting (giving the BBEG's henchmen the opportunity to gang up on each PC separately).

I'd probably set up the BBEG himself like he's half crime-boss, half Scooby Doo villain, having convinced half the city that he's actually some kind of undead creature or that his hideout is haunted. Bonus points if the party comes in assuming he's a vampire or lich and try to channel positive energy at him.


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A vanilla, CRB Rogue? Can't be done.

I mean, if we only had a wheelbarrow, that would be something.


Quote:
The Rogue does not necessarily have to challenge the party in combat until the equivalent of the end of book 6 of an adventure path.

It's more an issue of them finding and challenging him than the other way around.

Quote:
Actually - with the Bluff skill unlock - they can't tell that he's evil or read his thoughts.

This requires implementing all the other unchained skill rules which you may not want to do. Also it's not guaranteed, it's a caster level check, which starts having a chance of success at around level 10 casters vs. a level 20 rogue (taking into account CL buffs and such). Slightly extends the level he can stay hidden for but not much.

Anyway, those are not the main things to worry about, since they involve being in the same room already anyway:

Quote:
And other divination against someone you only know rumors about etc. can be tricky at best.

* Legend lore is slow but effective even with rumors, and repeated castings basically guarantees relevant information with little risk.

* Scrying only requires rumored secondhand knowledge and worst case scenario with NO physical items, only gives a +5 will save for this. A level 20 rogue only has +6 will, maybe, say, a +13 overall? DC to resist the scry is likely around 19-20 by low-mid to mid level wizard, that's like a 30% chance of success, can retry every day and goes up and up into mid game.

* For 24,000gp, level 10, you can craft a crystal ball which after you do the math adds about 20% more chance to succeed in a scry each day vs. example level 20 rogue.

* Locate object is likely good enough to find almost anybody in a criminal syndicate, even if slowly, by following the money... literally. Use it on jewels you personally paid anonymously into his crime network, follow them. If it ends up at a bank, mind control or otherwise get the information out of them who they exchanged it with or plant another locatable object for next time they do with a suggestion, follow the next link, etc.

* High diplomacy and other diplomantic skills can find virtually anybody without any magic at all fairly quickly with normal investigation. Unless they have zero contact with the world, in which case he's not actually in charge of any sort of syndicate in the first place.

* Find the Path is ridiculously powerful. Once you know just barely enough details to uniquely identify a syndicate, you can just find a path directly toward their boss's headquarters. Or does he live in a cardboard box? If so, find the path to his lieutenants and shortcut one of the many methods above by a lot.


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Where we did we put that wheelbarrow the albino had?


Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
The Rogue does not necessarily have to challenge the party in combat until the equivalent of the end of book 6 of an adventure path.

It's more an issue of them finding and challenging him than the other way around.

Quote:
Actually - with the Bluff skill unlock - they can't tell that he's evil or read his thoughts.

This requires implementing all the other unchained skill rules which you may not want to do. Also it's not guaranteed, it's a caster level check, which starts having a chance of success at around level 10 casters vs. a level 20 rogue (taking into account CL buffs and such). Slightly extends the level he can stay hidden for but not much.

Anyway, those are not the main things to worry about, since they involve being in the same room already anyway:

Quote:
And other divination against someone you only know rumors about etc. can be tricky at best.

* Legend lore is slow but effective even with rumors, and repeated castings basically guarantees relevant information with little risk.

* Scrying only requires rumored secondhand knowledge and worst case scenario with NO physical items, only gives a +5 will save for this. A level 20 rogue only has +6 will, maybe, say, a +13 overall? DC to resist the scry is likely around 19-20 by low-mid to mid level wizard, that's like a 30% chance of success, can retry every day and goes up and up into mid game.

* Locate object is likely good enough to find almost anybody in a criminal syndicate, even if slowly, by following the money... literally. Use it on jewels you personally paid anonymously into his crime network, follow them. If it ends up at a bank, mind control or otherwise get the information out of them who they exchanged it with or plant another locatable object for next time they do with a suggestion, follow the next link, etc.

* High diplomacy and other diplomantic skills can find virtually anybody without any magic at all fairly quickly with normal investigation. Unless they have zero contact with the...

There's a pretty good set of anti-divination spells that cost a bit of money. Hire a wizard to deck out your organization/base with divination protection.


Quote:
Hire a wizard to deck out your organization/base with divination protection.

Right, like I said, if the wizard is the lynchpin and is entirely responsible for the "BBEG" not dying, then you effectively have a wizard as the BBEG again, not a rogue.


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Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
Hire a wizard to deck out your organization/base with divination protection.
Right, like I said, if the wizard is the lynchpin and is entirely responsible for the "BBEG" not dying, then you effectively have a wizard as the BBEG again, not a rogue.

The wizard is a contractor used specifically to protect against high-level divination specialists (or generalists). If the wizard dies, the organization should be fine. Another wizard can be hired, or scrolls can just be used. If the rogue dies, the organization falls apart. Important deals don't get made, key officials don't get assassinated, and nobody does whatever planning is necessary. The wizard is not the motivated or skilled one.


I guess sort of... but all the strategic elements of the situation are just wizard vs. wizard again. I mean even if the rogue is technically in the storyline the boss, do the players really care / does it matter / have you made any sort of unique gameplay experience at the end of the day?

Sovereign Court

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Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
Hire a wizard to deck out your organization/base with divination protection.
Right, like I said, if the wizard is the lynchpin and is entirely responsible for the "BBEG" not dying, then you effectively have a wizard as the BBEG again, not a rogue.

And a wizard is totally reliant upon the paper & ink manufacturers! They're the REAL BBEGs!! Kill the lumberjacks and you'll never have to fight a wizard again!

And people who stab people aren't the villains - people who dig up iron ore and those who craft them into blades are!

Goldfinger wasn't the real villain! It was his scientist who invented his "LAZOR"!

Pathfinder assumes access to all sorts of magical gizmos. Using them doesn't mean that the spellcaster who made them is the real power.


So, there's a few problems with running a rogue BBEG.

One, in-combat they work best as skirmisher, sniper, anything but a straight up fight. So sneak attacks (not the game term), lots of allies, things like that. Hard to hit them back. Which, in practice, is either not dangerous or not fun. If they can't actually take down party members effectively then they're not actually dangerous. If they can take down party members and can't be found in return, it's "rocks fall everyone dies", just with more rolls. I think the balance point ends up being "wade through an army of enemies to kill them before they kill you" but then you hit "or just dimension door next to the boss and insta-gib them".

Two, they really don't get much as a class. This is the same problem with fighter BBEGs. As has already been brought up, they need a pocket wizard/cleric/etc. for magical support or they're going to be destroyed both in and out of combat. Both "become a bunny" and "become the caster's slave" are viable spell choices against the rogue (bad saves for both "save or die"). And, as is already being discussed, divination screws up plots real fast.

Three, and this might just be me, I can't see a rogue BBEG doing anything that a bard BBEG couldn't do better. And with more style. Plus spells.

Four, sort of a corollary to two, in all of these suggestions the rogue is basically only defined as a threat by their allies. If the rogue bluffs a planetar into helping them, the rogue isn't the problem. Ditto anything else they might get their hands on. It can work as a concept, but again, the rogue wouldn't actually be the BBEG in the situation. Which was sort of the point.

As for what to do about this? I'd say give up on using the rogue as the BBEG. Accept that they're "the power behind the throne" and use coerced, deceived, flummoxed, bamboozled, etc. minions who all think they're the ones making the decisions. A giant chess game where the other side doesn't realize they've been playing against someone else the entire time. Juror #6 Job from Leverage, basically. Again though, the actual class of the BBEG is relatively irrelevant at that point. It is a sneaky, underhanded plot, but that's not exactly exclusive to rogues.

Scarab Sages

We're used to the idea of BBEGs plotting/commanding from their lairs, but what can be cool about a Rogue BBEG is the dastardly deeds they can pull off from being mobile - even sneaking around your PCs at low levels and screwing with them without them noticing.

Imagine, just as a humble example, what the Disney incarnation of Aladdin might be able to accomplish as a bad guy - and I don't mean "he's got a genie" (although you could include that as "f&!@er gets his hands on all the coolest toys somehow") I mean the resourcefulness, mobility, ability to keep a low profile, talent for improvisation and for doing more with less, and of course the uncanny ability to come back like a bad penny no matter what you think you've done to get rid of them.


I think you could get a really interesting fight with a Rogue in a dark castle with Stealth + Invisibility (ring, perhaps) + divination blockers + magical light blockers running around, tagging each character with a sneak attack arrow and taunting them (demoralize rolls?) the whole time. The battlefield would probably be covered in traps, too. The battle would be more "hunt the rogue down manually", if that could be accomplished. The rogue has enough power to kill your party members, but deliberately leaves them alive, smacking each one hard and draining your healing resources. Perhaps if you treat the party up with what looks like it's going to be a big fight, but actually turns out to be a fake, then hit them with the stealth rogue. The rogue needs to play to all its advantages, nullify enemy caster win-button power, and play in a style that shows that they can be serious without actually being serious and killing the whole party.

Sovereign Court

Rogue as BBEG: steals their stuff while they sleep. Waits for the worst guard to be on watch. Etc.

Eventually keeps his distance after he learns they're after a big score item like artifact, tails them, steals it. Can even masquerade as an ally for a while to help them get to the artifact...


My personal idea based on the scenario I mentioned above is a guy that isn't somewhere doing something but EVERYWHERE and somehow just out of reach. Like a Carmen Sandiego that leaves behind political, social and physical traps to keep people off his tracks and steals everything he owns, meaning he doesn't have normal magic items but strange and exotic ones that no one expects. Probably build him like a sniper with a lot of Charisma and social skills.


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A PC class being should never be a single BBEG boss, it should always be a small cabal. If not, action economy would cut down said BBEG, and even Casters need people to watch their back.

Otherwise, having the rogue AS a noble works well. The actual confrontation will be anticlimactic, yet the resources said noble can use is the challenge.


These ideas might even work better if we take the "E" out of his title. A rogue who happens to be a BBNG (Big Bad Neutral Guy) might even be able to work with the PCs, hire them from time to time, appear to just be a wealthy noble or businessman, even helpful, all the while he's scheming and plotting - maybe he doesn't even know about the awful demons he's going to unleash; he might just think he's going to be fabulously rich.


KestrelZ wrote:

A PC class being should never be a single BBEG boss, it should always be a small cabal. If not, action economy would cut down said BBEG, and even Casters need people to watch their back.

Otherwise, having the rogue AS a noble works well. The actual confrontation will be anticlimactic, yet the resources said noble can use is the challenge.

I clarified above that being a single BBEG boss does not nessesarily mean that it's an NPC that fights a party alone or in actual combat barring the conclusion of the campaign.


DM_Blake wrote:
These ideas might even work better if we take the "E" out of his title. A rogue who happens to be a BBNG (Big Bad Neutral Guy) might even be able to work with the PCs, hire them from time to time, appear to just be a wealthy noble or businessman, even helpful, all the while he's scheming and plotting - maybe he doesn't even know about the awful demons he's going to unleash; he might just think he's going to be fabulously rich.

A lovely suggestion to dodge the 'smiting' and detect problem. Also a nice twist.


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Well, the resources that an evil rogue would have- networks, goons, and a lot of money (which can buy all sorts of black market gear).

So for the most part, you want someone with a nice array of talent at his hands (ie- melee guys, black listed wizards, clerics of assassin gods... might as well get some planar allies in there too), and you want to trick him out with as much BLING as possible.

A rogue's expertise is often stealth and theft, which lets him get his hands on all sorts of shiny things. So obviously you should break the appropriate wealth by level for NPCs, and give him as many scrolls, potions, and artifacts as you feel is appropriate. Use that UMD, since skills are your bread and butter, and that is a REALLY important skill.

So it is not hard to set up a decent fight. And the rogue can even be a rather important part of that since he is slinging around high level scrolls like candy. And always be sure to give him a way to escape, cause duh. Escape is the forte of thieves- they aren't some overconfident wizard that thinks that mere swordsmen could never cut his head off, thieves know their guts are very, very punchable.

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Dust of Dispelling allows you to spread dust to create an anti-magic field. A trap that drops it on the party as secret doors open up for teams fo flanking rogues to shish kebob the abruptly no-magic casters is a lethal surprise.

Torcs of anti-magic exist.

Masks that cast Mind Blank exist.

Forbiddance and Sequester will foil most divination spells aimed at finding a headquarters. Assuming there is such a thing.

Simple lead-lined containers prevent magical following of loot and would be a standard.

A simple change to Amulets vs ESP that the wearer is treated as the original caster makes them actually effective.

When the party starts asking questions about the thieves, the thieves will know the party is doing it. They, in turn, will start spreading misinformation and going for information about the party.

Copious use of 'cheating' tactics. The rogues should regularly ransack the base of operations of the PC's, kill off their pets, friends, servants, contacts, and allies, just like the PC's are doing, in a tit for tat war of attrition. Not doing so is just asking to die. Hiring specialists to come in and take them out, framing them for heinous crimes, going after family...this is all the kinds of ruthless thigns rogues do.

A high level rogue would make a great BBEG, but you'd have to make it totally clear he picks the ground for a fight, and he's not going to be fair at all. Anti-magic, dispelling, tricks and traps, hostages, poisons, races against time, taking the bodies of the dead, stealing things, poison needles in their beds, gauntlets, boots, soup - everything should be on the table.

If the PC's can't stand actually fighting an intelligent combatant who will resort to this sort of absolutely ruthless stuff without calling it DM Fiat, then no, you shouldn't be doing this.

have the BBEG be an idiot spellcaster with a nice brawl to end it all, instead.

==Aelryinth


Another approach would be to have the Rogue in plain sight -- but under the protection of the law, and controlling the law. In other words, a politician. And the whole realm is politically booby-trapped so that if you just kill the Rogue at the first point that this becomes technically possible, the whole nation explodes. (For added emphasis, have some highly visible nations in the general vicinity in which this has already happened. In Golarion/Avistan, Galt could serve as an exmaple, although the explosion of blood came with the breaking of Chelish rule rather than of a local dictator. In Golarion/Tian Xia, Bachuan could serve as an example, even though again it doesn't fit perfectly. In modern Earth, you have a whole bunch of examples that the Rogue could cheerfully refer to.


Actually... the last BBEG the PC's fought this last Tuesday was a Matriarch Lamia with 8 levels in Rogue. Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses with a +30 to Intimidate makes for a LOT of multiple-round Sneak Attacks.

Single-handidly nearly did the (veteran player) optimized and healthy 9th level PC's in.

The only reason two of them lived (at -8) is because I forgot to add the 4 bleed damage from her Rogue Talents into the mix while the lone survivor opted to try one last round of combat to finish her off before channeling for the Heal.


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Use a human unchained rouge with a high point buy (at least 25) and PC level wealth.

BBEG Rogue
Male human rogue (unchained) 20 (Pathfinder Unchained 20)
LE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +37
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Defense
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AC 33, touch 20, flat-footed 27 (+9 armor, +4 deflection, +6 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 203 (20d8+100)
Fort +16, Ref +26, Will +17; -2 penalty vs. water or cold effects, +2 resistance bonus vs. fire planar foe's effects
Defensive Abilities danger sense +6, evasion, improved uncanny dodge; Resist acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, fire 20, sonic 10
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 glamered keen rapier +29/+24/+19 (1d6+14/15-20)
Special Attacks master strike (unchained) (DC 29), sneak attack (unchained) +10d6
Rogue (Unchained) Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +25)
At will—minor magic
10/day—major magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 28, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 20
Base Atk +15; CMB +24 (+28 steal); CMD 38 (40 vs. steal)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Alertness, Bookish Rogue[ACG], Greater Steal, Hellcat Stealth, Improved Steal, Iron Will, Leadership, Shadow Strike[APG], Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Skill Focus (Stealth), Stealthy, Twist Away[ACG], Weapon Finesse
Traits natural-born leader, theoretical magician
Skills Acrobatics +22, Appraise +15, Bluff +28, Climb +8, Diplomacy +13, Disable Device +30, Disguise +28, Escape Artist +26, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (local) +20, Linguistics +10, Perception +37, Sense Motive +37, Sleight of Hand +32, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +57, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +28
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
SQ debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, rogue talents (coax information, combat swipe, cutting edge, evasion[UC], fast stealth, major magic, minor magic, rumormonger[UC], slippery mind, unwitting ally[UC]), trapfinding +10
Combat Gear cap of the free thinker[UE], ring of elemental command (fire); Other Gear +5 acid resistance cold resistance electricity resistance shadow, greater sonic resistance mithral chain shirt, +5 glamered keen rapier, amulet of natural armor +4, belt of physical might +6 (Dex, Con), boots of speed, cloak of resistance +5, headband of mental prowess +6 (Wis, Cha), ring of protection +4, sniper goggles (greater)[UE], 128,830 gp
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Special Abilities
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Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Bookish Rogue By studying a spellbook for 10 min, you can change your minor magic spell.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Cap of the free thinker Roll twice to save vs mind affecting effects, and take the better roll.
Coax information (Ex) Can use Bluff or Diplomacy to force an opponent to act friendly.
Cutting Edge (Stealth, Disguise) (Ex) Gain two extra rogues edge selections.
Danger Sense +6 (Ex) +6 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-8 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-8 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5 ft step) for 1 rd.
Energy Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (20) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Energy Resistance, Sonic (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Sonic attacks.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) Move at full speed while using the Stealth skill at no penalty.
Greater Steal Foe doesn't realize you've stolen from him until after combat.
Hellcat Stealth You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty.
Improved Steal You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when stealing.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=24) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 24+.
Leadership (Base Score 26) You attract loyal companions and devoted followers.
Major Magic (Shocking Grasp, 10/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen 1st-level spell as a spell-like ability.
Master Strike (Unchained, DC 29) (Ex) Sneak attack can kill, paralyze, or KO struck foe (Fort neg).
Minor Magic (Detect Magic, At will) (Sp) Gain the chosen cantrip as a spell-like ability.
Natural-Born Leader Your cohorts, followers, and summoned creatures gain +1 vs. Mind-affecting effects, +1 Leadership score if you have the Leadership feat.
Ring of elemental command (fire) -2 to save against water- or cold-based effects.
Rumormonger (5/week) (Ex) Use a bluff check to start a rumor in small town or larger settlement over a week.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Slippery Mind (Ex) If you fail a save vs an Enchantment spell/effect, can re-save once next rd.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +10d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Sniper goggles (greater) +2 damage per sneak attack die when making ranged sneak attack from any range.
Trapfinding +10 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Twist Away When in light or no armor, may make Ref save instead of Fort, if red eff, avoid entirely.
Unwitting Ally (Ex) As a swift action, opposed Bluff check to treat foe as ally for flanking.

Use the rest of the wealth for magic wands, scrolls etc.

He can make a stealth roll every round at -10 to disappear. This allows him to sneak attack on all of his attacks.


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Ultimately, there is exactly one thing that a level 20 rogue should have more than any other class*. Wealth. This guy has been TAKING whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for his entire life. And he's good at it too (bad rogues get killed or incarcerated long before level 20 - only the best rogue in the world could make it this far).

Someone that good at taking anything should take EVERYTHING. Some adventurers discover an artifact somewhere? No problem. Our BBNG rogue shows up and takes it from them. Some wizard somewhere makes a +5 dancing defending vorpal sword, our BBNG rogue shows up and takes it. Some efreet in the City of Brass makes a ring of infinite wishes, our BBNG rogue shows up and takes it. Some archmage creates a demi-plane full of gold, our BBNG rogue shows up and loots it all before the archmage spends a single coin.

Etc.

And, by "shows up and takes it" I mean he never actually "shows" anything because he's too dang stealthy and tricky for anyone to even know he is and/or was ever there. He's in, he's out, and he has the stuff.

And now he's rich. More wealth than even Han Solo can imagine. Forget NPC wealth limits. Forget PC wealth limits. This BBNG rogue is the very best rogue in the world and takes everything. He's 10x richer than Bill Gates and 100x richer than Donald Trump and...

You get the picture.

And with that kind of wealth, he can buy ANYTHING, hire ANYONE, and literally purchase the loyalty of all the mightiest critters on Golarion or anywhere else in the multiverse. The sky isn't the limit because the outer planes are way out there past the sky...

Can't bribe a demigod to kill some adventurers with just cash? No problem. I bet that demigod really wants some mega awesome artifact somewhere, too hard for him to get it himself, but not too hard for our BBNG rogue to go get it and give it to said demigod - as long as he kills those pesky adventurers.

You want Loki to show up and "challenge" the PCs? No problem, our BBNG rogue is just the guy to get Loki the one thing he really wants: Thor's hammer. And this BBNG is exactly the one guy who can pull that off. And now, Loki works for the BBNG, at least for a little while, long enough to provide hours of entertainment (for Loki) at the PC's expense.

So turn him loose. Make him rich. Don't limit your imagination regarding what the best rogue in the world can do with literally unlimited financial resources.

*as long as we disallow weird magical wealth shenanigans/exploits to prevent wizards from conjuring up bajillions of gold/diamonds/whatever.

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