Hello everyone, I am running a campaign with a player who likes to get into trouble and then take a hostage at gun point to escape (he's a gunslinger). However even with a gun in the hostage's face it still has a chance of doing 1 damage which to me seems really lame and doesn't make much sense. We are all new to using creative ways to defeat opponents but have been playing a while so we have most of the basic rules down; however, there is no rules about this that I can find.
So the only thing that comes to mind is the question "can someone allow themselves to be coup de grace'd?" If this is the case the hostage can be intimidated into cooperating with the player and then the player can land a coup de grace on their head. However this would still deal the same amount of damage as it would if you shot someone in the foot who was sleeping.
So, does anyone else have a way to do bonus damage to someone who is not considered helpless but pay be pinned or grappled?
Thanks!
Hello everyone, I am running a campaign with a player who likes to get into trouble and then take a hostage at gun point to escape (he's a gunslinger). However even with a gun in the hostage's face it still has a chance of doing 1 damage which to me seems really lame and doesn't make much sense. We are all new to using creative ways to defeat opponents but have been playing a while so we have most of the basic rules down; however, there is no rules about this that I can find.
While the percentage is probably small, there are many instances of a person survive a gunshot wound to the head. A headshot is no guarantee of killing someone, at least not in real life. So the possibility of receiving only a single point of damage from a head shot is realistic.
So the only thing that comes to mind is the question "can someone allow themselves to be coup de grace'd?" If this is the case the hostage can be intimidated into cooperating with the player and then the player can land a coup de grace on their head. However this would still deal the same amount of damage as it would if you shot someone in the foot who was sleeping.
By the rules, no, no one can allow themselves to be the recipient of coup de grace. You could houserule that so, but by the rules this is impossible.
I don't think allowing yourself to be helpless is or should be explicitly stated in the rules. It's right up there with denying your own dexterity to your AC or having to go to the bathroom, because having those rules written in the game really does nothing for the game and only serves to take more pages up. That being the case, it's just another GM thing.
As far as how the GM can handle it, the GM can always have the weapon deal max damage. I think it's unnecessary, because guns usually are x4 crit and your coup de gracing the target.
Just use called shot rules.
It's the closest you're going to get because the system is set up to have that level of lethality in it normally. With the exception of low levels, single hits don't kill you.
Also, for what it's worth this is no more a problem for gunslingers than it is for anyone else.
Imagine someone with a dagger or sword to your throat. If they stab you through the throat chances are high you will die, as well if they stab you through the head or heart. But the games doesn't simulate these things well and none are instant kills.
I believe there is a feat chain, the name of which I'm forgetting, which uses intimidate and basically causes an enemy to cower and make themselves helpless such that they can be coup-de-grace'd. If you really wanted to mechanically make it work, you would need to find the feat chain that does it.
The feats are Dastardly Finish or Merciless Butchery, though they wont help your gunslinger.
It's the closest you're going to get because the system is set up to have that level of lethality in it normally. With the exception of low levels, single hits don't kill you.
Also, for what it's worth this is no more a problem for gunslingers than it is for anyone else.
Imagine someone with a dagger or sword to your throat. If they stab you through the throat chances are high you will die, as well if they stab you through the head or heart. But the games doesn't simulate these things well and none are instant kills.
Funny that such a combat-heavy rules system doesn't handle these kinds of things very well!
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So yes, that works just right. 4d10 or whatever is a lot of damage, point blank, class abilities, magic weapons or bullets add more too.
Your victim is not just going to let you shoot them. If they are afraid of getting shot then you can probably convince them to be helpless or you will shoot them. Once helpless you could coup de grace them.
Choose a weak target, like a good villain, like a dandy or child. (Children might be an issue at some tables though).
Edit: of course the obvious pistol would do less damage,
You absolutely can choose to be helpless, people do it all the time.
Where is it stated that the condition has to be inflicted on an UNWILLING person?
You can make yourself prone and unconscious too. It's called sleeping.
You can also poison yourself... you get the idea.
That being said, this guy sounds pretty mean, I wouldn't encourage that kind of behavior.
They can allow themselves to be helpless but a creature trying to capitalize on that may not realize the character is leaving himself helpless (unless they do something like lie on the ground and put their hands on top of their head). Once that happens, even if damage isn't enough to kill the character, they can just choose to fumble the save.
Funny that such a combat-heavy rules system doesn't handle these kinds of things very well!It's the closest you're going to get because the system is set up to have that level of lethality in it normally. With the exception of low levels, single hits don't kill you.
Also, for what it's worth this is no more a problem for gunslingers than it is for anyone else.
Imagine someone with a dagger or sword to your throat. If they stab you through the throat chances are high you will die, as well if they stab you through the head or heart. But the games doesn't simulate these things well and none are instant kills.
Actually it handles it very well. It intentional makes it not possible, so that the game is fun. Otherwise, you just have people easily killing each other with a single attack each turn.
If you want to have a single attack kill someone (or likely kill them) use a coup-de-grace on a helpless person. Finding a way to make them helpless would be your primary goal. Pointing a gun at them at point blank range does not qualify. And honestly, it's for the best because otherwise the game quickly becomes a s&@$ty game of everybody's dead!
Funny that such a combat-heavy rules system doesn't handle these kinds of things very well!Actually it handles it very well. It intentional makes it not possible, so that the game is fun. Otherwise, you just have people easily killing each other with a single attack each turn.
If you want to have a single attack kill someone (or likely kill them) use a coup-de-grace on a helpless person. Finding a way to make them helpless would be your primary goal. Pointing a gun at them at point blank range does not qualify. And honestly, it's for the best because otherwise the game quickly becomes a s#*#ty game of everybody's dead!
Exactly. Anything that you can do to an NPC can be done to a PC. Who wants to play a game where a single attack kills you everytime. That's what the game would become if single shot kills were a thing. Coup de grace exists in the game, but it comes with a set of requirements to work. If you eliminate the requirements, then every combat encounter becomes an attempt at one-shot kills every time. Boring and unfun, not what the game is supposed to be.
This is actually already handled in the definition of a coup de grace. A hostage is both held, and at the opponent's mercy making them by default a classic case of helpless....
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
They have to be pinned to be helpless and if you are the one pinning them, then you cant coup de grace since even with greater grapple, you lost your move action. You can over come that by the old "two standards across two turns to activate a single full round" house rule but RAW you cannot coup de grace a hostage. You could tie them up but its not the flavor you originally implied.
They have to be pinned to be helpless and if you are the one pinning them, then you cant coup de grace since even with greater grapple, you lost your move action. You can over come that by the old "two standards across two turns to activate a single full round" house rule but RAW you cannot coup de grace a hostage. You could tie them up but its not the flavor you originally implied.This is actually already handled in the definition of a coup de grace. A hostage is both held, and at the opponent's mercy making them by default a classic case of helpless....
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
You explicitly do NOT have to be pinned to be helpless. You could be paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. In fact, having the pinned condition does NOT make you helpless.
Just for clarification, held is generally accepted as referring to the Hold Person spell.
Holding a gun to a persons head does not on it's own met any of the criteria for allowing a coupe-de-grace.
And as noted, neither grapple or pin allow for it either.
Completely at an opponent's mercy is incredibly vague, but holding a gun to someones head is at best grappling someone with your pistol drawn and pointed at them. Which would not count them as helpless.
It's not supposed to be easy to coup-de-grace someone.
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They have to be pinned to be helpless and if you are the one pinning them, then you cant coup de grace since even with greater grapple, you lost your move action. You can over come that by the old "two standards across two turns to activate a single full round" house rule but RAW you cannot coup de grace a hostage. You could tie them up but its not the flavor you originally implied.How is that a house rule?
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
If your hostage is not actively fighting back or struggling then they have submitted, and are at your mercy. You can pull the trigger or not, it's up to you and they have no power over your decision... again... helpless. So 100% RAW helpless, and able to be coup de grace. It's really not even subtle it's right in the rules.
Yup.
If the target wants to allow you to shoot them in the head point blank... they can choose to render themselves helpless. By choice.
If a person has chosen to make themselves helpless, then sure they are helpless.
But no, almost no one would choose that except for some weird confluence of events. Certainly, someone being "held hostage" is not going to choose to make themselves helpless to their attacker.
For this to work on the super-simple side of the mechanics, the gunslinger needs to brush up on his CMB. Bind the hostage = escape DC of (20 +x CMB). Or take the significant penalty to grapple/pin your hostage with one hand, which simulates the "not as helpless as you thought" trope from movies. If you catch the prospective hostage by surprise, their CMD should be lower (flat-footed, no Dex bonus applies)...
I'd give it an automatical Critical Hit, but not a Coup-de-Grace.
You explicitly do NOT have to be pinned to be helpless. You could be paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. In fact, having the pinned condition does NOT make you helpless.They have to be pinned to be helpless and if you are the one pinning them, then you cant coup de grace since even with greater grapple, you lost your move action. You can over come that by the old "two standards across two turns to activate a single full round" house rule but RAW you cannot coup de grace a hostage. You could tie them up but its not the flavor you originally implied.This is actually already handled in the definition of a coup de grace. A hostage is both held, and at the opponent's mercy making them by default a classic case of helpless....
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Yes, but I was referring to specifically when grappling a hostage, not *all* circumstances.
If you catch the prospective hostage by surprise, their CMD should be lower (flat-footed, no Dex bonus applies)...
If you catch them totally by surprise (as in they would have had no reason to be in a combative stance) then they loose BAB and STR too, at least for the opening grapple since they would become aware if you tried to pin them immediately after that.
If a person has chosen to make themselves helpless, then sure they are helpless.
But no, almost no one would choose that except for some weird confluence of events. Certainly, someone being "held hostage" is not going to choose to make themselves helpless to their attacker.
The act of not struggling is their choice to make them self helpless. If someone puts a gun to your head and says "nobody move or I shoot", and you as a hostage don't move... you have chosen to be helpless. If you slam your head backwards in a headbutt or reach up to disarm or squirm to turn and face the attacker... then you have chosen to not be helpless.
If you as a hostage comply with the "don't move or I shoot" command then you are choosing to make yourself helpless.
So yes, quite a few people who are intimidated/timid/value their life will make them self helpless and see what happens rather then risk grave bodily injury.
Interesting point of view, but it doesn't have to be limp passive resistance OR full out attacking your grappler.
Choosing not to be helpless does not obligate you to attack.
You simply make a choice to not become helpless, no more, no less.
It doesn't force actions, visible or otherwise.
If a person has chosen to make themselves helpless, then sure they are helpless.
But no, almost no one would choose that except for some weird confluence of events. Certainly, someone being "held hostage" is not going to choose to make themselves helpless to their attacker.
The act of not struggling is their choice to make them self helpless. If someone puts a gun to your head and says "nobody move or I shoot", and you as a hostage don't move... you have chosen to be helpless. If you slam your head backwards in a headbutt or reach up to disarm or squirm to turn and face the attacker... then you have chosen to not be helpless.
If you as a hostage comply with the "don't move or I shoot" command then you are choosing to make yourself helpless.
So yes, quite a few people who are intimidated/timid/value their life will make them self helpless and see what happens rather then risk grave bodily injury.
Interesting point of view, but it doesn't have to be limp passive resistance OR full out attacking your grappler.
Choosing not to be helpless does not obligate you to attack.
You simply make a choice to not become helpless, no more, no less.
It doesn't force actions, visible or otherwise.
Agreed.
Also, in the game where provided you don't make yourself helpless you have a substantially better chance of actually surviving an encounter like this then you do if you made yourself helpless.
This is a game not real life, provided you have enough HP things don't risk killing you in a single hit.
At level 1, a barbarian vs a gunslinger, the barbarian should have no fear of ever being killed by a single shot because he has 12+ con hit points and a musket will only do 1d12.
The game isn't designed to simulate real life, things are not meant to instantly kill here. The problem is you want the game to be like real life, where a gunshot to the head almost guarantees death. But the rules don't support such a thing. Sorry, but no.
If a person has chosen to make themselves helpless, then sure they are helpless.
But no, almost no one would choose that except for some weird confluence of events. Certainly, someone being "held hostage" is not going to choose to make themselves helpless to their attacker.
The act of not struggling is their choice to make them self helpless. If someone puts a gun to your head and says "nobody move or I shoot", and you as a hostage don't move... you have chosen to be helpless. If you slam your head backwards in a headbutt or reach up to disarm or squirm to turn and face the attacker... then you have chosen to not be helpless.
If you as a hostage comply with the "don't move or I shoot" command then you are choosing to make yourself helpless.
So yes, quite a few people who are intimidated/timid/value their life will make them self helpless and see what happens rather then risk grave bodily injury.
Interesting point of view, but it doesn't have to be limp passive resistance OR full out attacking your grappler.
Choosing not to be helpless does not obligate you to attack.
You simply make a choice to not become helpless, no more, no less.
It doesn't force actions, visible or otherwise.
Agreed.
Also, in the game where provided you don't make yourself helpless you have a substantially better chance of actually surviving an encounter like this then you do if you made yourself helpless.
This is a game not real life, provided you have enough HP things don't risk killing you in a single hit.
At level 1, a barbarian vs a gunslinger, the barbarian should have no fear of ever being killed by a single shot because he has 12+ con hit points and a musket will only do 1d12.
The game isn't designed to simulate real life, things are not meant to instantly kill here. The problem is you want the game to be like real life, where a gunshot to the head almost guarantees death. But the rules don't support such a...
a shot to the head could also be a crit, so that'd be 4d12. The problem isn't that the game can't do realism; the problem is that people try to shoehorn everything into a realistic setting. So you end up with all of these house rules that deal with lava, falling, explosives, and guns so they can easily kill off even high level characters, when really the situation should be replaced with first level NPCs with single digit health.
In this game you can be a Human and melee a dragon! Of course that simple lead bullets in your skull won't kill you straight.
Also, in the game where provided you don't make yourself helpless you have a substantially better chance of actually surviving an encounter like this then you do if you made yourself helpless.
I'd also consider the possibility that someone told to not move or they'll be shot, can choose to not move, yet still not be helpless, as long as they don't go flat footed, you could still react with an attempt to fight the perpetrator or try to escape. Especially if there is more than one person being threatened this way at the same time. When the gun points to another guy, one of those threatened (if not helpless) could make a move against the gun wielder. Just because one agrees to appear non-agressive when threatened with a gun and told not to move, doesn't mean they are defined as helpless.
Also, in the game where provided you don't make yourself helpless you have a substantially better chance of actually surviving an encounter like this then you do if you made yourself helpless.I'd also consider the possibility that someone told to not move or they'll be shot, can choose to not move, yet still not be helpless, as long as they don't go flat footed, you could still react with an attempt to fight the perpetrator or try to escape. Especially if there is more than one person being threatened this way at the same time. When the gun points to another guy, one of those threatened (if not helpless) could make a move against the gun wielder. Just because one agrees to appear non-agressive when threatened with a gun and told not to move, doesn't mean they are defined as helpless.
Very much agreed
I would have no problem with a non-combatant NPC being deemed helpless to a sufficiently intimidating bad guy. The only reason I wouldn't ever make that decision is because my more ruthless players would want to know how, so that they could then do the exact same thing. No barman/shopkeep/streetsweeper who just happened by to witness their latest mayhem would be safe.
Just make a new condition, Hostage: while held as a hostage, an attack made against you is considered an automatic hit and a crit; you may attempt to escape (such an action allows the hostage taker to take their attack) with a reflex save to half the damage.
Obviously this works best with those Lv 0-1 NPCs with small amounts of hp that should be littered everywhere.
Also there should probably be some rules about demoralizing them (Intimidate) and a full round combat maneuver to put them into hostage condition.